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Blizzard missed the difference between MMO and Strategy game
Akelan
Member Posts: 4
In Warcraft, you play by commanding "units" and if an overpowering force attacks them, you lose. Not personal, just part of the game.
In WoW, however, things are different, since you play AS the character, not with them as a third party. If some level 60 rogue comes and hammers your 24 druid into the ground, it "feels" different, and this distinction is something Blizzard has completely missed in their PvP implementation.
Players who know their class and abilities, and how to use them against your class are the best challenge in any game, and the PvP in WoW holds all that potential. Unfortunately, so little of the PvP is between anything approaching equals that the best part of the game gets lost in all the ganking and garbage. Blizzard's hands off policy on any PvP encounter places the schoolyard bully in charge, and they reply to the inevitable complaints as being "user remediable" and so the GMs will not get involved.
I'm hoping to see battlefields provide some real, purposeful places for PvP. I hold little hope for the Honor system as it has been described, because it fails to address the ganking issue completely. (There are no penalties for dishonorable kills). The "rent a reward" system will serve to bolster this as well - you need the most kills to get the best rewards, so kill everything in sight and hope some of them are considered honorable.
Much of what has kept people playing EQ, AO and DAoC for so long is the social aspect of the game, and how they interact as their characters with other players. Blizzard has done a quite decent job technically for this early in the release cycle; sure there are bugs and the game needs more content, but that will be addressed as the game matures, as it has been in other similar games. Blizzard needs to get a better "feel" for its players, however, if they really want to make the game a success on the par of EQ or some of the other lasting favorites. Much more of the game's focus needs to be on the individual, their accomplishment and their cooperative accomplishments with guild and faction partners if the game is to have the "staying power" of the best MMOs.
I hope they get it. Of the several MMOs I have enjoyed, this has very great potential, and it will become better if they can keep the players interested and give them some reason to continue beyond the simple rush to 60.
Comments
Blizzard's specialty had been precisely that in the past, upon which they built their reputation.
I agree, they missed some very important points of what makes an MMO fun to play.
What they have been attempting to do in WoW, is reduce everyone's game play to set series of push-button combat, herding people into that box I describe in another post.
The MMO's main strength lays in the ability to take any action one sees fit. In WoW, this is not the case, and particularly in combat, it has been diabolically cookie-cutter in nature as a result.
This is what I mean when I say, there are little to no actual tactics involved in the game.
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"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
the only thing thats really funny about all this is
who cares????
they are selling millions of copies of WoW and are making humungo bucks
they are certainly doing something right
Clearly you havent played WoW or played it only for a little while. WoW is all about tactics. My main is a level 46 rogue and I have a dozen of tactics in my pocket. If you have no tactic and just come close and turns on attack mode, occasionaly pushing a special attack then it is your fault.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Well I LOVE the way I keep feeling like Im a little Orc in Warcraft 2. I love the way it can sometimes seem like your actualy just a unit in someone elses RTS game.
I think Blizzard have gotten that felling just right. It almost feels like your playing WC2 with the ability to double click a unit and see the game from 1st or 3rd person and control on unit. Im really pleasantly surprised by how immersive the environment is and how "warcrafty" everything feels.
Im only a 22 Orc Hunter and have only been playing about 2 and a bit weeks now I guess but Im really looking forward to getting into some PVP. Im just getting as many levels as I can before the patch then Ill prolly get involved. I just dont feel like im playing well enough to be anything but fodder at this stage.
Like Jimmyman said you need to work out some tactics. Im working on that stuff now and when I feel more comfortable about a good strategy for my character, then Ill be more likely to try some PVP action.
So far WoW has impressed me a LOT
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
All I read was Wah Wah Wah I want someone to hold my hand.
you know? in most level-based MMorpg there is this problem of high level ganking newbies. it is not exactly a new thing and is not going anywhere.
Yes, it is bad, yes it should not happen and yes, those high levels doing it (especially repeated) are not exactly examples of the "polite gamer".
Luckly WoW gives you the option to go on the PvE/RP server where you can PvP when you want and not when the level XX wants.
With the addition of the rewards and the battlegrounds, i will be happy to do PvP... again... when I want.
If you think WoW is bad, then you haven't seen the newbies areas of Lineage 2... at least in the US beta they were simply slaughter fields with numerous level XX roaming and simply killing all newbies around for the fun of it.... oh joy.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Hey Barry WTF does that have to with anything they're talking about? All you do is troll this forum and say how WoW sucks it gets old after the 60th time.
Barry, quit being a tool and trolling.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
have you actually played WoW. if you have you obviously havent played in depth. i beta tested and have been playing for a while now. it certainly is as good as any game out right now, and better than most. maybe you chould actually check it out first.
Goddam mad dog gnaws wang! Goddam mad dog!
I found that there's quite a lot of interaction in WoW, especially since different classes have their own strengths and weaknesses, and certain areas/quests/raids are really focused on working with other people.
About the ganking... well i've yet to hear from a game that there's no ganking weaker people. If it's not a level difference, it's items. All the same, from game to game.
I agree with the honor system being a bit useless tho.
I find the comments of how I need to play in depth interesting. 1.5 bars of exp from 60 as of this morning on my main hunter, level 28 rogue, level 12 undead warlock on a new server where my guild is making a bunch of horde alts as we are alliance on our main server, and prior to playing in both beta and since day 1 of release, 3+ years in EQ (left while my guild was entering elementals preparatory to doing Time, I did not have the hours to put into nightly raids any longer), and about a year in DAoC, SWG and Horizons. I've played most classes in several MMOs, and been a DM and player in D&D settings longer than most of the posters here have probably been out of diapers. (There are one or two of the trolls that I wonder whether that's a valid comparison or not, but hey...) SWG comes to mind as an example of both the potential and the price of PvP, as it has failed to live up to its potential so heartbreakingly.
As for tactics, I'm comfortably taking down 2-3 level 60 mobs while I am working towards 60, spec'd for beast mastery with a fast hitting pet and +86 to ranged attack on my hunter. Currently I am concentrating on some 58-60 elites, as they are more of a challenge, and I am having a great time with them. Mashing the buttons is not and never has been my style, since I was the first Ranger on my EQ server to solo a dragon there. (For those of you who know, Yeldema, using a dire wolf / cazic's puppet strings with a LOT of kiting. Took me 3 tries, but I have her talisman in my trophy case in the bank). I planned and led EQ raids, including ring wars and similar large events, and I have been a tactician and research rat for ages. If you wanted to survive as a ranger in kunark era EQ, you learned to value tactics more than breathing, and you know how quickly that reminds you when you stop doing it.
WoW has so much potential, but the capacity to build the enduring communities and the guild following that has kept some of the others alive has been badly overshadowed by the pointlessness of the PvP to date. I am really hoping they will make it mean something, either by the implementation of the battlefields or even more interestingly, by allowing a faction to "claim" a disputed territory by holding key points and defeating opposing faction players for a period of time. There needs to be purpose behind the PvP or it has no chance of remaining as interesting; most of the higher level players I know avoid it if they have anything better at all to do; instance raids and such are more enjoyable and rewarding than one of the primary "features" of the game at this point.
Akelan, I couldn't agree with you more. You've basically summed up all the issues I have with the game as well. Not to mention, very well said. You didn't complain, you pointed out flaws and what you'd like to see fixed. Great argument.
ALthough im not much of a PvPer, i agree with Akelan. All those things would be great to add to WoW universe.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
All i see is a bored lvl 60 guy. I bet you are one of those who enjoys ganking low lvl adversaires.
Anyway, on the topic; You cant compare a strategy game as warcraft (playing the third party) ordering units to move where you want them to be or to attack, and being one of those units!! That is the difference!!
Let's think it this way: YOU are one of those units!!! They fight and die!! What if you send one of your lower or weaker units to attack one of the strongest ones? It will die..right? same thing here.....
The only difference is that you are not in control anymore of the world "per se" ..You are just one within that world.
Is only up to you and to your knowledge of skills and habilities and and their use how you can insure your survival, and beat the enemy. That in my opinnion is strategy..not at high level but...
I know that there are jerks as in every other game but, please have in mind what the game box says: "ESRB:T for TEENS" !!!! It doesn't have to have all the complexities of the real world (even tough in RL ganking is also present).....
if a green beret finds a guerrilla operative ..what? does not attack him because he has no training? or because he is young? or whatever consideration? NO...he goes in and slash him
!! Right? So? what's the deal?
That is the beauty of PvP. Attack all you want. If you dont like the system the way it is, fine, that is your prerrogative and i respect that; but my advice for you would be to try a RP server. In there, things are held more seriously, strategy rules there and you wont have to face with the honor code that you already dislike. (I guess you already know that, but at least is my advice to a fellowplayer)
I see that you mention EQ a lot in your posts. Well, if you miss it that much maybe you should consider trying it for a while again, there is a new expansion out there for EQ1. You can also try EQ2 and kill dragons there.
PEACE!! (After killing all horde...
)
I agree with you. I wanted also to add that Warcraft 3 is real time strategy and although WoW is MMORPG it does give you a feeling of a unit in a war3 universe. However, the difference between those 2 styles is that War3 is strategy (basicaly you plan ahead on a global scape) and WoW is tactics (you plan goes as far as surviving a skirmish with enemy). With the future development, I see elemtns of WAR3 being introduced into WoW (for example sieges). However, with the speed Blizz puts out content, Im estimating its gonna take a year or two before actualy see that content.
WoW is great, but the development of new content is way too slow imo.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I also agree with you. I believe that those elements from War3 will be introduced in the game...the problem is when.
On that topic, i read some interesting things on Blizzards forums, let me quote Caydiem here:
After this patch, we plan on delivering patches containing both bug fixes and content in a more timely fashion. I cannot commit at this time to saying "monthly", for example, but they will be coming more often and regularly, and will not be held up due to some large feature being the focal point. The internal processes to make this happen are already in place and operating; the changes are real, and you will see the effects shortly after the current patch is live.
I hope this has answered your query to some extent.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
they know it and they accept it. we need to wait what they come up with.
My opinnion is that they concentrated all their efforts fixing the server stability issue instead introducing new content, and i think that was the way to go in first place. I think they still have some work there, but that has been improved a lot. I believe that once they have all that under control, new content will be introduced twice as fast as other MMOs. Besides they have the experience of having developed other types of games and strategies that they may be using for this game. We just have to give them time.
This, in relation to the topic of this thread, only indicates that new things are coming: new content, new strategies, better service etc, etc. So, people being bored or complaining about things "they would like to have" will be satisfied...no doubt on that. But for those guys out there that are "bored" i suggest to go and give a look to some other aspects of the game. I mean...for me (and that is me), i find almost impossble to be bored in the game..there are millions of options to do there!! You get bored because you always do the same, not because the game is boring.