Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why there will not be flight in SWTOR
safety
Member Posts: 219
Gordon Walton is Senior Co-Studio Director at Bioware and one of the leaders of the SWTOR team there. Previously he was at Sony Online Entertainment with responsbility for Star Wars Galaxies and its popular flight sim adjunct, Jump To Lightspeed. In March 2010, he gave a speech on 'MMO Retention' in which he specifically talked about JTL. Forgive me if I am wrong but I think what he says here strongly implies that there will be no flight in SWTOR.
This link comes from Darth Hater:
Gordon Walton: So when I worked on Star Wars Galaxies, we did an expansion called Jump to Lightspeed, which added all the space elements to Star Wars Galaxies. It was a huge expansion and an awesome space experience, actually.
But what we found was that a lot of the players who were playing the game that we had were not thrilled by us having space -- because they knew it came at the expense of adding more stuff to the stuff they were already playing. So it wasn't positive for retention, because the game was a very different game. It was a 3D space game. And in fact, a whole lot of people who play RPG type games don't really do the 3D thing that well -- it isn't their strongest suit. That was part of what we found out. The control scheme had to be different; everything had to be different. It was not as advantageous to us as we had hoped.
And in fact, we had a backlash of some anti-retention from the current customers that we already had because they were enjoying the game they were playing and wanted more of that, or wanted that fixed more than they wanted to fly around space in the Star Wars universe. It wasn't that flying around space in the Star Wars universe wasn't cool: the problem was that they wanted more of what they were already doing.
So all things that you do, no matter what you do when you're changing the game, you're going to have hopefully intended (consequences), and you're also going to have some unintended consequences. The rule that we kind of violated there, for me, was that we did too big of a jump from what was available. So customers want change, and they want the game experience to change over time, but they typically react badly to huge changes to the game. You leave people behind, and they don't have the time to kind of warm up to it.
I think it is about the on-ramp. The on-ramp is a big, steep, huge set of stairs that you kind of have to climb up -- where if you walk up gradually, then you tend to bring more of the audience along with you. Because again, it isn't one audience that we have; it is a whole bunch of little micro-audiences that are motivated completely differently from what we think on the side of those of us who make the game. They are motivated differently. The ones that are just like us we understand perfectly, and unfortunately they are a minority.
As I said, I'd say that was a strong statement that there will be no flight in SWTOR. More to the point, I think it's also compelling proof of how SOE executives had no goddam clue of how to read research or how to draw conclusions from it since, as SWG's experience over the last five years clearly shows, the JTL flight sim is clearly one of the few remaining strengths of SWG and, in many cases, the only reason some subscribers remain with that decaying game. The fact that Gordon Walton does not know or understand this does not bode well.
Comments
Gordon, back in 2008 when they announced it said that they weren't planning to have flight in the game for launch.
I heard that tons of ground-based areas were abadoned after space content was added, which lead to the game feelings more empty and desolate than it already did? Is that not accurate?
Am I the only one getting the giggles reading him talking about "the space expansion was too much of a big change"? If you consider what they did with the NGE...I mean...really... *laughs*
Anyway, beside me thinking that he was unloading nothing but false assumptions I at the same time do not see that as a statement against flight in SWTOR. What he meant was "do not change an existing product that much in such a short time". Still SWTOR is new, nobody of us "has got used to the game" so I fail to see the link between his statements and SWTOR. Unless of course someone is of the belief "SWTOR totally has to be similar to SWG" what I then would call nonsense briefly after *winks*
In which game? If you mean, SWG, no, I don't think that was the case. You could only fly in to major star ports and then had to shuttle to regional hubs. I personally enjoyed the system though it did lengthen travelling times. I don't think the addition of the flight model made the landscape empty or desolate.
This is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read. For months after launch, all you would read in chat is how SOE messed up by not having a space game in a Star Wars game! Player retention loss due to Jump to Lightspeed my butt! More like player retention loss due to horrible content updates and massive sweeping changes in the core gameplay i.e. CU and NGE.
Still not an excuse for any other games to not add a space/flying side to the game.
I am not so sure. I am going to stick with my belief that this speech was his coded way of getting out the news 'No flight in SWTOR because it's hard and expensive to programme even though I'm going to give the excuse that people don't want it'. I'd say that is more credible than a more subtle message of 'don't make serious changes to a game halfway through' because, as you know, JTL is the living, breathing contradiction of that message. After all, JTL was a change halfway through a game that did prove to be a great success.
I have been playing SWG for maybe a month. It was a very low quality game without real content (Jabba palace, wtf is that crap), but actually the JTL was shining. Space battle was basically the only good and polished part of the game. I was hoping to have that in SWTOR as well, since space battle is a defining part of the Star Wars universe.
I read it as -
1. We'll either have space in at launch or we probably won't do it, at least until we get everything on the ground to the point we feel we can spare the time/talent to develop the space game.
2. We don't want the game play in space to be completely different then the ground game play. So if we can find a way (maybe we already did) of having the space game reflect the same kind of controls and combat style as the ground game, we'll do it.
*this one is key, I don't think we'll see FPS X-Wing/Tie-Fighter like space combat. If it's in, it'll be more MMORPG-like and probably not full 3D. I bet they are looking hard at STO which may or may not be a good thing. Also I would not expect to see anything flyable other then freighters/transports and fighters. No capital ships.
Please, please, please, no space flight in TOR. While I know it works with the lore, and make sense, I DO NOT want to play a flight simulator. It killed STO for me in 2 seconds. Just my wish.
If they have space flight it won't be something that stands out it will be a natural part of the game, that's just how Bioware does things, I can't see how they can have a smuggler class and not have space flight.
Maybe it'll be just like the "flight" system in ME2 lawl.
But with lasers!
I have come to know Bioware pretty well lately.
I am sure they will offer a very nice in game cinematic of how you fly to different planets.
SOO immersive and I bet it will come with your NPC'c companion voice chat... "Pigs in spaaaaaace".
-
Cut the crap: they give all their money to precorded voices and cinematics with single player story telling: there simply is no budget left to do a PvP (not even PVE) flight game in space.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I'd be perfectly happy with a 3rd person perspective over-the-shoulder (hull) space "sim" with limited Z axis movement like they do in games like the Rogue Squadron series or some such.
I'd want space to be more about travel and exploration then straight up combat 100% of the time.
And please, learn the lesson from SWG that killed JTL for me....
NO TIE FIGHTERS THAT TAKE 187 LASER BLASTS TO BLOW UP
With 150 million dollars, maybe they'll pay you to stop trolling?
You can make Mass Effect 3,4, and 5 and then remake Xwing/Tie Fighter, remake the Jedi Knight Series, and remake Lego Star Wars and throw them all into The Old Republic at AAA quality with 150 million dollars and the talent Bioware possesses.
There will not be flight because 150 million dollars still isn't enough to provide every single feature that has ever existed in every other MMORPG at the time of release.
I think they have a lot more important matters to take care of until release and long after.
Apparently not... because flight is not included...
And all these games were ... multiplayer and based on PvP too ? (the achilles of Bioware)...
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Link?
I mean, I'd love to finally know without the shadow of a doubt that there will be no space flight. Truthfully I could care less if there isn't space flight as long as the rest of the game is good and not totally borked and completely unbalanced like SWG was.
That's not true. That's what they say. Then they go out make hints like 'there will be crafting but not like you've seen before' or 'there will be an end-game that will be different from raiding or pvp'.
JTL was 1 of the reasons I left SWG. It wasn't a lfight sim at all. You couldn't dodge the enemy attacks, it was all a roll oft he dice. We never got to fight anything bigger than a little carrier. i never once got with a team to take down a space station or destroyer because there was no point.
In my opinion I don't want a space sim in TOR unless they can do it tot he standards of X-wing vs TIE Fighter or X-Wing Alliance. I should be able to dodge enemy lasers and the enemy should actually try to dodge me. None of this constant circling or jousting.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
I was being facetious.
You may not like Bioware, their games or ToR for all I care (and seeing your posts, you obviously don't like them), but thinking that most of the budget is going to precorded voices and cinematics is crazy talk, trolling and frankly ridiculous, you only succeed in making yourself look like a fool with such statements.
Or plainer said: it's a baseless statement, proof or it doesn't exist outside of your head.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Oh, I just posted based on the OP, didn't see your post
.
Aye, stay focused. Already two top notch space sims coming out in the MMO space. They are focused on the fighter experience so at best you look half assed in comparison. Keep it on the ground, keep it about the story.
I saw nowhere in Gordon Waltons post that there would be no space-play in TOR. As far as I could tell he was just saying that they should have spent more resources on expanding and improving the groung-game in SWG rather than adding the the JTL expansion at the time.
Not to say that there WILL be space flight in TOR, but no allusion to the fact that there won't...
How many people never bought the game at release due to the lack of space combat? I certainly wouldn't have. Star Wars without space combat? Ridiculous.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2