If an MMO cannot even encompass basic elements such as a comprehensive tutorial system and sufficient gameplay to keep players entertained for longer than just a couple of weeks, then the devs may as well pack up and go home, because they are wasting everyones time.
I agree with your tutorial argument.
I disagree with the gameplay, 80% of the players in Eve live in empire and half of those players do nothing but run random missions all day and have been doing it for seven years. Perpetuum offers the same experience.
You do realize that this is the first pvp focused sandbox (released in the last couple years) that actually gives players an option not to pvp?
Look at other games like MO and Darkfall. You have no choice or gameplay as a carebear/non-aggressive.
I've been running arund killing drones, doing missions so i can raise standing.
What else do you need? Whats wrong with the gameplay and why do you think it wont hold anyones interest when Eve proves people will run random shit over and over for no other reason than making in game currency?
EP skill up is easy - you need xyz points. If you have it,you skill up, if not, you have to wait few minutes. Plain and simple.
Only one thing could be hard - shooting at mobs. Yes, primary target,target , range could be problem for absolute begginers.
There are few YT tutorials about mining, shootin,refinery etc. Newbies in MMORPG should look at it. More exp players can live w/o it. Or just do tutorial.
Perpetuum is sandbox with (so far) realy hard PvE. Its not the game for someone who wish to grind easy mobs, and do like they do on YT channel.
LOL in Eve when I first started playing I skilled up so I could survive in pvp situations.
In Perpetuum im using out of game resources and setting up my skills to survive the NPCs lol
The Game world and NPC difficulty remind me of Ryzom more than EVE.
Extremely challenging NPCs that require you to really skill up a nice bot.
Want an example of Perpetuum?
Here it is... You create a character, spend a couple minutes killing drones around the base. Walk 5 minutes and run into Ewar bots and assault mechs that could drain and three hit you.
For a person like myself that basically plays mmos as a form of personal cyber torture Perpetuum is a gem, for anyone else not completely insane its rough.
Sounds like this game could be fun, I definetly enjoyed eve but I was skeptical of this game. I guess I will dust off my beta invite and try it out.
Picture a game like Eve but with mechs on a planet and instead of setting a orbit during combat you need to manually keep optimal distance using WASD keys.
Its easy for YOU to say that Silok because you're obviously already used to the game. But put yourself in a new players shoes who's never experienced a skill based progression system before. Would you want to turn them away?
As i said before if people take the time to just read the faq about the skill sytem the will understand it fast enough. If they cant read well maibe this game is not for them.
And how do YOU know about the police missions being the easiest? Nowhere is that explained. Think about that for a moment. And then imagine 20, 000 new players all asking on launch day "Why can't I do even 1 single mission?" because the "confidentiality" level system is too vague and no one has told them about the police missions being easier than others.
I know it because in the description of the police assigment you can clearly read ''Begginer assigment''. I mean is it so hard to understand? Again take the time to read and voila.
And neither is Eve like that now. Why? Because it now has a much better tutorial system that leads the player through the intial stages of getting set up. So you see, even CCP realised there was a problem.
Yep you are right now eve tutorial is better and easier. Perpetuum is at beta stage maibe they will do a better tutorial. I never said the tutorial was good enough but i said the game was easier to learn than eve.
Anyway i respect your opinion maibe for you the learning curves is similar to eve but not for me so maibe they will implent a friendly tutorial for those who find it difficult.
Perpetuum is at beta stage maibe they will do a better tutorial.
The tutorial currently in game is the very first test we did for the brand new tutorial system. Yes we're going to upgrade it as is needed, currently we're gathering feedback from the players on the topic. Your input is also very welcome on the game forums.
@Scorchien: I never exaggerate things. I spent a few minutes trying to take down 1 single mob, only to have another player destroy it and the container have a lock code on it. When my avatar blew up, the items that were in the bots cargo hold were no longer there and the equipment loadout went back to the original one. So I'm guessing you WERE playing a different game.
Tell me, do you honestly think its wise for the assignment tokens to be lost when your bot blows up so you have to start the whole gathering of tokens again? Seriously? And should a new player need to grind mobs and do research on drops just so they can do a single assignment? Shouldn't there be a starting set of quests after the tutorial for killing, mining, etc? The assignment rewards could be items that give a boost to stats (or in the case of mining assignements) provide the player with a small amount of raw materials which they can then refine and sell to an npc to get a small amount of credits, thereby showing the player how to interact with their bot and the UI in the game. These suggestions are nothing new. CCP realised that Eve needed them. Just like every other MMO on the planet does.
Now, no doubt you will hate such suggestions because to you they are "holding your hand", and if the devs don't wish to implement such things, then so be it. At least the suggestion was made.
Lastly with regards to ease of play, consider this, just because YOU found things easy, doesn't mean that you are a typical player.
@xSagai: I am personally not wanting to "solo everything". However, it is quite reasonable to expect to be able to do one assignment at the very start without struggling a great deal. Grinding mobs at the very start just to get off the "starting blocks" is not a good "hook" in my opinion. People want to at least accomplish something like a quest / assignment or two in the time that they have.
As for comparisons with the likes of Eve, sorry but the whole "its been out for 7 years" is a very poor argument. We're not talking about comparisons in the amount of content, we're talking about elements that are inherent in all MMOs. The UI design and the first hours of gameplay are things which EVERY single player will witness. First impressions last.
Game testing isn't just about bugs. What's the point in a bugless game if no one is going to play it because the UI is not user friendly and the learning curve during the first few hours of the game is too steep.
Being classed as a game that "doesn't hold your hand" and has a very steep learning curve, is all very nice. But it doesn't necessarily put money in the bank. And lets face facts, THAT is what matters. Income.
Like a said in earlier post the police assigment ARE easy, and if you try other assigment, well yes you will be kill. For the cargo can when you die you can go back to retake it, assuming nobody loot it.
I know the death is a pain you lose your bot with all the gears you had on it plus you can lose your cargo if your not fast enough to get it back but their are supposed to work on a insurance system.
Perpetuum is at beta stage maibe they will do a better tutorial.
The tutorial currently in game is the very first test we did for the brand new tutorial system. Yes we're going to upgrade it as is needed, currently we're gathering feedback from the players on the topic. Your input is also very welcome on the game forums.
@Scorchien: I never exaggerate things. I spent a few minutes trying to take down 1 single mob, only to have another player destroy it and the container have a lock code on it. When my avatar blew up, the items that were in the bots cargo hold were no longer there and the equipment loadout went back to the original one. So I'm guessing you WERE playing a different game.
Tell me, do you honestly think its wise for the assignment tokens to be lost when your bot blows up so you have to start the whole gathering of tokens again? Seriously? And should a new player need to grind mobs and do research on drops just so they can do a single assignment? Shouldn't there be a starting set of quests after the tutorial for killing, mining, etc? The assignment rewards could be items that give a boost to stats (or in the case of mining assignements) provide the player with a small amount of raw materials which they can then refine and sell to an npc to get a small amount of credits, thereby showing the player how to interact with their bot and the UI in the game. These suggestions are nothing new. CCP realised that Eve needed them. Just like every other MMO on the planet does.
Now, no doubt you will hate such suggestions because to you they are "holding your hand", and if the devs don't wish to implement such things, then so be it. At least the suggestion was made.
Lastly with regards to ease of play, consider this, just because YOU found things easy, doesn't mean that you are a typical player.
@xSagai: I am personally not wanting to "solo everything". However, it is quite reasonable to expect to be able to do one assignment at the very start without struggling a great deal. Grinding mobs at the very start just to get off the "starting blocks" is not a good "hook" in my opinion. People want to at least accomplish something like a quest / assignment or two in the time that they have.
As for comparisons with the likes of Eve, sorry but the whole "its been out for 7 years" is a very poor argument. We're not talking about comparisons in the amount of content, we're talking about elements that are inherent in all MMOs. The UI design and the first hours of gameplay are things which EVERY single player will witness. First impressions last.
Game testing isn't just about bugs. What's the point in a bugless game if no one is going to play it because the UI is not user friendly and the learning curve during the first few hours of the game is too steep.
Being classed as a game that "doesn't hold your hand" and has a very steep learning curve, is all very nice. But it doesn't necessarily put money in the bank. And lets face facts, THAT is what matters. Income.
Like a said in earlier post the police assigment ARE easy, and if you try other assigment, well yes you will be kill. For the cargo can when you die you can go back to retake it, assuming nobody loot it.
I know the death is a pain you lose your bot with all the gears you had on it plus you can lose your cargo if your not fast enough to get it back but their are supposed to work on a insurance system.
The police assignments were on the bottom of the assignment list for me.
I had no idea that there were service bot difficultly missions because the other missions on the list were all a 1 star difficulty.
I assumed 1 star meant for newbs. if they had a better tutorial a mistake like that wouldnt have happened. A less patient player would have uninstalled after getting owned in the 1 star assignments a couple times.
The police assignments were on the bottom of the assignment list for me.
I had no idea that there were service bot difficultly missions because the other missions on the list were all a 1 star difficulty.
I assumed 1 star meant for newbs. if they had a better tutorial a mistake like that wouldnt have happened. A less patient player would have uninstalled after getting owned in the 1 star assignments a couple times.
100% agree with Rockgod on this. First impressions last and perception is everything in MMO's, regardless of whether that perception is accurate or not.
Devs cannot rely on potential customers reading all the fine print detailed on forums, websites JUST to get started. New players want to install the game, and be shown details regarding the game whilst they are actually playing it (i.e. in a tutorial), they don't expect to have to randomly find that do-able first assignment just to get started. Hiding such things away doesn't make a game "cerebral" or "mature", it just creates the perception that the game is not fun, its frustrating. And thats the perception that Perpetuum is giving to some at the moment. The Police assignments are at the bottom of the whole list of available assignements. There's no indication that they are easier than the others of the same "Confidentiality Level". Just like Rockgod says, a less patient player would just uninstall the game if they PERCEIVE that they can't even complete level 1 assignments. The perception that "Confidentiality Level 1" assignments can be completed as a first mission is actually incorrect, but to a new player level 1 is level 1, and therefore IMPLIES an easier / easiest activity relative to higher levels. So when that player can't complete even their first assignment, they will get frustrated. How are THEY to know that CERTAIN Level 1 assignments are actually easier than others? And IF they are indeed easier, then why are they labelled as the same Confidentiality level as harder ones?
A "con" system exists in MMO's in order to give the player an idea as to the relative difficulty of the task compared to their avatar / groups own toughness. If the con system doesn't actually perform that job, then there's no point in it being there and it will be considered broken and pointless. Incidentally, is there a con system in place on the mobs themselves? I don't think I saw one.
I realise that the game is in beta, but that's why these comments and observations are crucial right now. The game needs a better "con" system than the "confidentiality" rating, along with a tutorial system that fully explains the UI, the "con" system, and all the other usual elements of an MMO. And as a final task, the tutorial should ease the player into starting doing the easiest assignments available. Of course, this could be optional and therefore those who don't want to do the tutorial can just crack on with what they want to do.
All too often I've seen devs and beta testers alike constantly squawking "Its in beta...its in beta", as if everything is going to magically becoming perfect at launch. And then at release, the issues are still there. At least if Devs are made aware of the perceptions and problems that new testers face, then they have a chance at putting them right before launch.
@BoyC, please don't take these comments offensively, they are just observations that may help you guys out. Its up to you whether you wish to take note of them Incidentally, may I suggest that you have a column on the assignments window which lists the level of the assignment? The player could then sort the assignments list by level. And because the police assignements are labelled as Beginner, then they would appear at the top of the sorted list.
@BoyC, please don't take these comments offensively, they are just observations that may help you guys out. Its up to you whether you wish to take note of them Incidentally, may I suggest that you have a column on the assignments window which lists the level of the assignment? The player could then sort the assignments list by level. And because the police assignements are labelled as Beginner, then they would appear at the top of the sorted list.
No worries, we love constructive criticism and your points are quite valid. What we don't want to do is to simply throw something together, we like to think a bit before starting to implement stuff. The subject of the tutorial and first user experience is actively being discussed and we'll be patching the game as soon as we have an update.
Also yes we're thinking about giving levels to the missions, but that thought could be expanded and we're looking into the possibilities there before implementing it.
@BoyC, please don't take these comments offensively, they are just observations that may help you guys out. Its up to you whether you wish to take note of them Incidentally, may I suggest that you have a column on the assignments window which lists the level of the assignment? The player could then sort the assignments list by level. And because the police assignements are labelled as Beginner, then they would appear at the top of the sorted list.
No worries, we love constructive criticism and your points are quite valid. What we don't want to do is to simply throw something together, we like to think a bit before starting to implement stuff. The subject of the tutorial and first user experience is actively being discussed and we'll be patching the game as soon as we have an update.
Also yes we're thinking about giving levels to the missions, but that thought could be expanded and we're looking into the possibilities there before implementing it.
I generally prefer level assignments to missions over other conning features. In some games I have played it has been good for social aspects. Have a mission that is a few levels higher than you? take some friends along. Have an older one that is lower level? Maybe the loot isnt something you need? See if any lower level friend wants it.
Also in an open world area, ive had a lot of fun running missions with teams where we just run through an area hitting all the mission spots. Mission levels would be helpful to know how hard each camp, boss, etc. would be. While this might be principally for just being helpful to the group or fast experience, it has the added benefit of sometimes feeling like a rampaging horde.
Recent example, leveling a new alt - a full group ran through a zone screaming bloody murder and attacking everything in sight. Some people clearly had quests, as they were picking up items. Some would say, 'arg there is another so and so' I assume meaning they needed another kill. At least one party member was just there to aggro things and knock them down; at one point someone asked him OOC if there was anything he needed and he said he didn't even have any missions he just hated Vanir (the race of most mobs in the zone).
We had a few times where we almost get killed, but got more organized just in time. If we'd had mission level indicators, I think we'd better be able to alternate between the wild aggro everything in sight and coordinated attack tactics.
P.S. when are you going to let me in the beta? I filled on the online form and everything. ... please?
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
@BoyC, please don't take these comments offensively, they are just observations that may help you guys out. Its up to you whether you wish to take note of them Incidentally, may I suggest that you have a column on the assignments window which lists the level of the assignment? The player could then sort the assignments list by level. And because the police assignements are labelled as Beginner, then they would appear at the top of the sorted list.
No worries, we love constructive criticism and your points are quite valid. What we don't want to do is to simply throw something together, we like to think a bit before starting to implement stuff. The subject of the tutorial and first user experience is actively being discussed and we'll be patching the game as soon as we have an update.
Also yes we're thinking about giving levels to the missions, but that thought could be expanded and we're looking into the possibilities there before implementing it.
Its good to see that you are taking such suggestions and observations in the spirit that they were intended. Thank you.
So I told myself I wasn't going to do this.. but BoyC - anyway you guys would accept my beta invite? The more I read about this game the more I want to play it! Aggghhh!
So I told myself I wasn't going to do this.. but BoyC - anyway you guys would accept my beta invite? The more I read about this game the more I want to play it! Aggghhh!
Aaaahhh. . I was just about to fire up MechWarrior Mercenaries. I did sign up for the beta and look foward to it. Not in a rush currently. I hope it opens up more for the summer though. Homeless currently.
I will have to read up on it a lot more. . couldn't get into Eve but you never know. . Mechs are more my thing.
Aaaahhh. . I was just about to fire up MechWarrior Mercenaries. I did sign up for the beta and look foward to it. Not in a rush currently. I hope it opens up more for the summer though. Homeless currently.
I will have to read up on it a lot more. . couldn't get into Eve but you never know. . Mechs are more my thing.
heh, started playing that again in the meantime too.
I honestly don't know if i can ask this,but here it goes:
If one of you guys wants to give up on the game, can i get your beta account? I ask this because i registered in the game (4 days ago),no invitation so far,and man...i want my sandbox fix
And if this is against the forum rules,sorry,i didn't knew. If it isn't, PM please
Comments
I agree with your tutorial argument.
I disagree with the gameplay, 80% of the players in Eve live in empire and half of those players do nothing but run random missions all day and have been doing it for seven years. Perpetuum offers the same experience.
You do realize that this is the first pvp focused sandbox (released in the last couple years) that actually gives players an option not to pvp?
Look at other games like MO and Darkfall. You have no choice or gameplay as a carebear/non-aggressive.
I've been running arund killing drones, doing missions so i can raise standing.
What else do you need? Whats wrong with the gameplay and why do you think it wont hold anyones interest when Eve proves people will run random shit over and over for no other reason than making in game currency?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
EP skill up is easy - you need xyz points. If you have it,you skill up, if not, you have to wait few minutes. Plain and simple.
Only one thing could be hard - shooting at mobs. Yes, primary target,target , range could be problem for absolute begginers.
There are few YT tutorials about mining, shootin,refinery etc. Newbies in MMORPG should look at it. More exp players can live w/o it. Or just do tutorial.
Perpetuum is sandbox with (so far) realy hard PvE. Its not the game for someone who wish to grind easy mobs, and do like they do on YT channel.
LOL in Eve when I first started playing I skilled up so I could survive in pvp situations.
In Perpetuum im using out of game resources and setting up my skills to survive the NPCs lol
The Game world and NPC difficulty remind me of Ryzom more than EVE.
Extremely challenging NPCs that require you to really skill up a nice bot.
Want an example of Perpetuum?
Here it is... You create a character, spend a couple minutes killing drones around the base. Walk 5 minutes and run into Ewar bots and assault mechs that could drain and three hit you.
For a person like myself that basically plays mmos as a form of personal cyber torture Perpetuum is a gem, for anyone else not completely insane its rough.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Sounds like this game could be fun, I definetly enjoyed eve but I was skeptical of this game. I guess I will dust off my beta invite and try it out.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Picture a game like Eve but with mechs on a planet and instead of setting a orbit during combat you need to manually keep optimal distance using WASD keys.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The tutorial currently in game is the very first test we did for the brand new tutorial system. Yes we're going to upgrade it as is needed, currently we're gathering feedback from the players on the topic. Your input is also very welcome on the game forums.
So BoyC, any chance of you guys letting more of us into the beta? I'd sure love a chance to test this out.
Like a said in earlier post the police assigment ARE easy, and if you try other assigment, well yes you will be kill. For the cargo can when you die you can go back to retake it, assuming nobody loot it.
I know the death is a pain you lose your bot with all the gears you had on it plus you can lose your cargo if your not fast enough to get it back but their are supposed to work on a insurance system.
Thats good news.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The police assignments were on the bottom of the assignment list for me.
I had no idea that there were service bot difficultly missions because the other missions on the list were all a 1 star difficulty.
I assumed 1 star meant for newbs. if they had a better tutorial a mistake like that wouldnt have happened. A less patient player would have uninstalled after getting owned in the 1 star assignments a couple times.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
100% agree with Rockgod on this. First impressions last and perception is everything in MMO's, regardless of whether that perception is accurate or not.
Devs cannot rely on potential customers reading all the fine print detailed on forums, websites JUST to get started. New players want to install the game, and be shown details regarding the game whilst they are actually playing it (i.e. in a tutorial), they don't expect to have to randomly find that do-able first assignment just to get started. Hiding such things away doesn't make a game "cerebral" or "mature", it just creates the perception that the game is not fun, its frustrating. And thats the perception that Perpetuum is giving to some at the moment. The Police assignments are at the bottom of the whole list of available assignements. There's no indication that they are easier than the others of the same "Confidentiality Level". Just like Rockgod says, a less patient player would just uninstall the game if they PERCEIVE that they can't even complete level 1 assignments. The perception that "Confidentiality Level 1" assignments can be completed as a first mission is actually incorrect, but to a new player level 1 is level 1, and therefore IMPLIES an easier / easiest activity relative to higher levels. So when that player can't complete even their first assignment, they will get frustrated. How are THEY to know that CERTAIN Level 1 assignments are actually easier than others? And IF they are indeed easier, then why are they labelled as the same Confidentiality level as harder ones?
A "con" system exists in MMO's in order to give the player an idea as to the relative difficulty of the task compared to their avatar / groups own toughness. If the con system doesn't actually perform that job, then there's no point in it being there and it will be considered broken and pointless. Incidentally, is there a con system in place on the mobs themselves? I don't think I saw one.
I realise that the game is in beta, but that's why these comments and observations are crucial right now. The game needs a better "con" system than the "confidentiality" rating, along with a tutorial system that fully explains the UI, the "con" system, and all the other usual elements of an MMO. And as a final task, the tutorial should ease the player into starting doing the easiest assignments available. Of course, this could be optional and therefore those who don't want to do the tutorial can just crack on with what they want to do.
All too often I've seen devs and beta testers alike constantly squawking "Its in beta...its in beta", as if everything is going to magically becoming perfect at launch. And then at release, the issues are still there. At least if Devs are made aware of the perceptions and problems that new testers face, then they have a chance at putting them right before launch.
@BoyC, please don't take these comments offensively, they are just observations that may help you guys out. Its up to you whether you wish to take note of them
Incidentally, may I suggest that you have a column on the assignments window which lists the level of the assignment? The player could then sort the assignments list by level. And because the police assignements are labelled as Beginner, then they would appear at the top of the sorted list.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
No worries, we love constructive criticism and your points are quite valid. What we don't want to do is to simply throw something together, we like to think a bit before starting to implement stuff. The subject of the tutorial and first user experience is actively being discussed and we'll be patching the game as soon as we have an update.
Also yes we're thinking about giving levels to the missions, but that thought could be expanded and we're looking into the possibilities there before implementing it.
I generally prefer level assignments to missions over other conning features. In some games I have played it has been good for social aspects. Have a mission that is a few levels higher than you? take some friends along. Have an older one that is lower level? Maybe the loot isnt something you need? See if any lower level friend wants it.
Also in an open world area, ive had a lot of fun running missions with teams where we just run through an area hitting all the mission spots. Mission levels would be helpful to know how hard each camp, boss, etc. would be. While this might be principally for just being helpful to the group or fast experience, it has the added benefit of sometimes feeling like a rampaging horde.
Recent example, leveling a new alt - a full group ran through a zone screaming bloody murder and attacking everything in sight. Some people clearly had quests, as they were picking up items. Some would say, 'arg there is another so and so' I assume meaning they needed another kill. At least one party member was just there to aggro things and knock them down; at one point someone asked him OOC if there was anything he needed and he said he didn't even have any missions he just hated Vanir (the race of most mobs in the zone).
We had a few times where we almost get killed, but got more organized just in time. If we'd had mission level indicators, I think we'd better be able to alternate between the wild aggro everything in sight and coordinated attack tactics.
P.S. when are you going to let me in the beta? I filled on the online form and everything. ... please?
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Its good to see that you are taking such suggestions and observations in the spirit that they were intended. Thank you.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
So I told myself I wasn't going to do this.. but BoyC - anyway you guys would accept my beta invite? The more I read about this game the more I want to play it! Aggghhh!
can only hope
...
Aaaahhh. . I was just about to fire up MechWarrior Mercenaries. I did sign up for the beta and look foward to it. Not in a rush currently. I hope it opens up more for the summer though. Homeless currently.
I will have to read up on it a lot more. . couldn't get into Eve but you never know. . Mechs are more my thing.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
heh, started playing that again in the meantime too.
I honestly don't know if i can ask this,but here it goes:
If one of you guys wants to give up on the game, can i get your beta account? I ask this because i registered in the game (4 days ago),no invitation so far,and man...i want my sandbox fix
And if this is against the forum rules,sorry,i didn't knew. If it isn't, PM please
=]
Got accepted to beta like 10 minutes ago.. check your e-mails if you signed up.
Nope, nothing but spam and yet another 'Your WoW Account may be haxored unless you click on this link' phish *sigh*