But, why not a permadeath server? Not hte game, only a server!
With wipes every year more or less.
Thousands of players re waiting for that Permadeath server, btw never mind the game...
I dont understand why the devs dont test one .
Because thousands of players do not fill up a server. You need tens of thousands.
And i highly doubt you can actually find thousands to play a permadeath server.
Daggerfall has only 1,000 as far as I'm aware. It's also based on open PvP and full looting. It's still running, so if they can have it, so can others!
Wait... what? Daggerfall?
Are we talking about The Elder Scrolls: II? Which came out over a decade ago, and was single player?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
1) Would you play a permadeath mode if your favorite MMO enabled it?
No. All the MMOs I play are too combat-centric to allow for permadeath.
2) If not, what changes would be necessary to entice you into trying it?
Take the focus off of combat and on to roleplay, non-combat, and such. Otherwise, the game really has nothing to offer.
3) Would they need to dramatically increase the speed of leveling?
There shouldn't be levels for combat in a permadeath MMO. If there are, they shouldn't be gained by engaging in combat.
4) Let you pass down "heirloom" buffs and items to your next of kin?
Perhaps.
5) Give special rewards for permadeathers only?
Either the game should be all permadeath, or no permadeath.
Other things:
In the early days of MUDs and MUSHs, permadeath was actually the rule, not the exception. But you have to understand something about those games. Combat wasn't the real draw of those games. Roleplay was the draw. Combat was something that was engaged in rarely, and there wasn't any purpose behind it other than roleplay-derrived purposes.
Permadeath was in those games because characters meant a lot and character play meant a lot. But characters don't mean as much today. They are time-intensive, no doubt, but they simply aren't played or governed as important entities in their own right.
Putting in permadeath isn't going to give death any meaning in today's MMO, because there's nothing meanigful behind playing today's MMO. I mean, if the only thing we can come up with for enticing people into a permadeath game are "dramatic increase in the levelling" and "heirloom buffs and items," it sounds like a pretty shallow game as it is, and the permadeath isn't going to give it any depth.
I'm not saying permadeath can't work. I've seen it work, but only in games that had significantly more depth than the MMOs we play today. Putting in permadeath in today's MMO, with the expectations of today's MMO player, won't make people play their characters more meaningfully. If anything, it will make the games more shallow than they are now, resembling Diablo II.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The only time I would play a game with permadeath would be if the in-game "me" was, for example, a kingdom or civilization and the permadeath was relating to my kingdom/civilization's individual resources and units.
An example; the great Schindler civilization is protected by an army led by 4 batlte-tested and hardened veteran generals, Jinxcotl, Robicotl, Quinzocotl and Bob. If one of those generals were to fall in battle and die permanently, I'd be ok with that.
But, why not a permadeath server? Not hte game, only a server!
With wipes every year more or less.
Thousands of players re waiting for that Permadeath server, btw never mind the game...
I dont understand why the devs dont test one .
Because thousands of players do not fill up a server. You need tens of thousands.
And i highly doubt you can actually find thousands to play a permadeath server.
Daggerfall has only 1,000 as far as I'm aware. It's also based on open PvP and full looting. It's still running, so if they can have it, so can others!
Wait... what? Daggerfall?
Are we talking about The Elder Scrolls: II? Which came out over a decade ago, and was single player?
Oops, you shouldn't post really late at night. Darkfall, it's a typo.
It's all about game balance. If making a max-level character takes 300 hours of game play, it shouldn't take someone 10 seconds to destroy that character. In traditional MMOs, even someone that plays perfectly can still lose (for any number of reasons). Severely penalizing someone for something they have no control over is just plain stupid.
I would not play a game with permadeath. Especially a PvP game. There is way too much hacking, cheating, griefing, imbalance, etc. in mmos to risk losing my character because of any of that. So no thank you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Today's question is simple: would you play a permadeath mode if your favorite MMO enabled it, and if not, what changes would be necessary to entice you into trying it? Would they need to dramatically increase the speed of leveling? Let you pass down "heirloom" buffs and items to your next of kin? Give special rewards for permadeathers only?
Well, no because the draw of these games, for me, is that my character is persistant and can have ongoing adventures.
The second question "what changes would be necessary to entice you into trying it" means that in the end there is some sort of appeal to permanent death.
I just don't see the appeal. Even if I could get a character to an acceptable lvl within hours, I just don't feel like it's important for me.
Other than being more realistic, fights are always more epic for me, more intense because I don't like losing. Unlike some other players, I don't require a harsh sting of death in order for me to feel the need to fight all the harder or to savor my victories.
Failure to me is its own penalty and winning is its own reward and I feel both profoundly without any need for any harsh death penalty or any uber reward.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I love perma death idea. I play on perma death server in diablo 2.
But the developer probably don't like the idea of people quiting and stop paying them monthly subscription.
Diablo don't have this problem because it's pay once and play for a life time. So the developer already got your money. they don't care if you quit or not.
I think the concept of perma death can only be incorporated in a certain way. For example in SWG pre-cu. You become force sensitive and if you die 3 times your jedi turns into a ghost and no longer becomes useful. So we unlock a super hard, but super powerful prestige class that follows similiar rules. Otherwise I don't see perma death being accepted anywhere.
I love perma death idea. I play on perma death server in diablo 2.
But the developer probably don't like the idea of people quiting and stop paying them monthly subscription.
Diablo don't have this problem because it's pay once and play for a life time. So the developer already got your money. they don't care if you quit or not.
I suppose thats the reasons about no PermaDeath games in the market...
Permadeath would sure make things fun, but for that some innovation is needed. Such as
1. If you are initiated by a player much higher level than yourself something along the lines of the Giant Balls of God fall down and crush him killing his character and leaving you to laugh at the funny scenario.
2. If some jackass with 15 of his friends tries to kill you, a multitude of ballsacks scaling to the # of players trying to gank you fall from the sky obliterating all of them and once again leaving you to laugh at what just happened.
3. Some douchebag decides to take his new server 1st overpowered sword of 1000 deaths for a spin and kill a player of the same level that uses a rat tied to a wooden club. Once again, divine intervention.
If you are gonna lose all you have worked for, might as well be a fair loss.
1) Instanced, Balanced Scenario PvP
2) No stupid "epic weapons" which make it where a skilled player can't beat a downsyndrome teenager with an epic sword. Fair-enough balance of equipment, playerskill, and character skill.
3) Fast leveling of skills, and the ability to obtain permanent skills up to AT LEAST the point beyond a newbie's ridiculously low skill level to prevent the most boring part of remaking a character (the newbie part from 0 to 25 skill level)
It's all about game balance. If making a max-level character takes 300 hours of game play, it shouldn't take someone 10 seconds to destroy that character. In traditional MMOs, even someone that plays perfectly can still lose (for any number of reasons). Severely penalizing someone for something they have no control over is just plain stupid.
What if..
1) It took only 1 day (lets say...5-12 hours max) to go from 50 skill points to 100 (max skill level).
OR
2) The difference between 50 and 100 skill level in PvP isn't as important as player-skill or teamwork.
OR
3) You never lose gold, because your character cannot lose gold.
OR
4) You cannot lose "epic", rare, or overly expensive items because they are bound to account instead of to character. Or the ability to INSURE or BLESS any item you wanted.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY==
5) The ability to slowly rise a permanent skill for all characters created UP TO 50 skill points. So once you "level up" that one skill to 50 points, you never have to level it up from 0 to 50 again. Only from 50 to 100. This insures real value to permadeath (100 skill level is VERY desirable compared to 50) but eliminates boring, dull repetition where you are constantly repeating the most boring part of character creation- having no abilities, no power, and being forced to fight chickens and rats for hours before returning to a VIABLE skill level (25-50)
For those touting insurance, once you have insurance you don't really have permadeath. You just have a money sink and a trap for the occasional idiot who doesn't buy insurance.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You guys are all over the map on what you think would be a solid way to have permadeath in a game. Normally I would say all the merrier but doesn't that kind of take awy the point of permadeath by doing this? Not to mention the sheer difference between what one feels the "permadeath" penalty should be compared to the next one?
Reading through this topic it's no wonder most devs won't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
DDO, which has 4 or 5 permadeath guilds across 4 or 5 servers, successfully implements permadeath. It draws from the game's RPG tabletop roots in which of course your character died permanently when he or she sustained too much damage. If you RP in MMOs, the miracle of constant resurrection is one of the hardest things to swallow.
If you don't RP, permadeath isn't for you. The only exception might be those who would like an extra challenge. It IS difficult and requires teamwork and no goofballs or Leroy moments. If you are attached to "things" and specific characters who live forever no matter the challenge, then you never played D & D and you are too soft for permadeath.
And that's ok. Current gaming encourages long-termcvommitment and the collection of various items so that you are invested in a character and will keep playing.
Permadeath guild members cherish their characters and mourn them when they are gone. Some continue to play them as alts, but they must be removed from the guild.
For those touting insurance, once you have insurance you don't really have permadeath. You just have a money sink and a trap for the occasional idiot who doesn't buy insurance.
One option I have always thought of is a % chance for different things to occur upon death.
30% chance- Nothing. Successfully retreats and quickly recovers from all minor wounds.
10% chance- Ransom. The NPC (no one) or the PC who killed your character wants a (skill-based generated) RANSOM of , lets say 2000 gold. Once payed, you have access to the character again. If enemy was a PC, they get the ransom.
10% chance- Imprisoned. Cannot play character for (y) days [alternative to do a "Prison Break" quest with an alt"]
10% chance- Wounded. Cannot play character for (x) hours [alternative to use healing items or quests]
10% chance- Death, but an epic quest to "revive" the character.
10% chance- Poisoned / ill / diseased - must find "the antidote" via a quest within [x] in-game playtime hours before
10% chance- Lost - Permanently dead, but after (x) days the character comes back (surprise!) and was actually not dead, only lost. You get him back, or can "create" him again first thing once you have an open character slot if it's full. Perhaps the character gains extra XP while they're gone and "come back" with a few extra free levels or skill points as well as a new title "Gandalf the White".
10% chance- Killed. Permanently dead.
Why not do it this way? You die- and it's a big deal. There's a chance they won't die. In fact, 90% chance there is no perma death. There is a 60% chance you'll have to sacrifice Gold, Time (quests), or Time (waiting) to get the character again.
Technically, a character could die 100 times and not permanently die if they were lucky enough. Also, if unlucky every character you play could suffer perma-death.
This means if you die- it's JUST as risky as perma-death via FUN. I mean, there IS A CHANCE and a pretty high chance (10% is pretty high) but also there's A MUCH BETTER CHANCE 90% that some other (more fun, less punishing) things will happen that add to the realism of the game.
Afterall, not every character dies in books, movies, or roleplaying games. Often characters are captured, wounded, or are thought dead only to later return even more powerful.
I would never play an mmo that had permadeath. I like building up a character, and losing what I had worked for would not be any fun, which is why I play games: fun.
Not only would permadeath affect me, but it would not be fun if those I routinely group with were suddenly level 1 again and trying to get caught up.
Comments
Wait... what? Daggerfall?
Are we talking about The Elder Scrolls: II? Which came out over a decade ago, and was single player?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
My responses in red.
1) Would you play a permadeath mode if your favorite MMO enabled it?
No. All the MMOs I play are too combat-centric to allow for permadeath.
2) If not, what changes would be necessary to entice you into trying it?
Take the focus off of combat and on to roleplay, non-combat, and such. Otherwise, the game really has nothing to offer.
3) Would they need to dramatically increase the speed of leveling?
There shouldn't be levels for combat in a permadeath MMO. If there are, they shouldn't be gained by engaging in combat.
4) Let you pass down "heirloom" buffs and items to your next of kin?
Perhaps.
5) Give special rewards for permadeathers only?
Either the game should be all permadeath, or no permadeath.
Other things:
In the early days of MUDs and MUSHs, permadeath was actually the rule, not the exception. But you have to understand something about those games. Combat wasn't the real draw of those games. Roleplay was the draw. Combat was something that was engaged in rarely, and there wasn't any purpose behind it other than roleplay-derrived purposes.
Permadeath was in those games because characters meant a lot and character play meant a lot. But characters don't mean as much today. They are time-intensive, no doubt, but they simply aren't played or governed as important entities in their own right.
Putting in permadeath isn't going to give death any meaning in today's MMO, because there's nothing meanigful behind playing today's MMO. I mean, if the only thing we can come up with for enticing people into a permadeath game are "dramatic increase in the levelling" and "heirloom buffs and items," it sounds like a pretty shallow game as it is, and the permadeath isn't going to give it any depth.
I'm not saying permadeath can't work. I've seen it work, but only in games that had significantly more depth than the MMOs we play today. Putting in permadeath in today's MMO, with the expectations of today's MMO player, won't make people play their characters more meaningfully. If anything, it will make the games more shallow than they are now, resembling Diablo II.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
In order for me to play a PD character there would have to be better rewards for doing so. There would have to be increased item drops or something.
The only time I would play a game with permadeath would be if the in-game "me" was, for example, a kingdom or civilization and the permadeath was relating to my kingdom/civilization's individual resources and units.
An example; the great Schindler civilization is protected by an army led by 4 batlte-tested and hardened veteran generals, Jinxcotl, Robicotl, Quinzocotl and Bob. If one of those generals were to fall in battle and die permanently, I'd be ok with that.
Oops, you shouldn't post really late at night. Darkfall, it's a typo.
I continue thinking that a PermaDeath Server ll have lots of fans.
Its easy if you think about it
Clan Hispania
It's all about game balance. If making a max-level character takes 300 hours of game play, it shouldn't take someone 10 seconds to destroy that character. In traditional MMOs, even someone that plays perfectly can still lose (for any number of reasons). Severely penalizing someone for something they have no control over is just plain stupid.
I would not play a game with permadeath. Especially a PvP game. There is way too much hacking, cheating, griefing, imbalance, etc. in mmos to risk losing my character because of any of that. So no thank you.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well, no because the draw of these games, for me, is that my character is persistant and can have ongoing adventures.
The second question "what changes would be necessary to entice you into trying it" means that in the end there is some sort of appeal to permanent death.
I just don't see the appeal. Even if I could get a character to an acceptable lvl within hours, I just don't feel like it's important for me.
Other than being more realistic, fights are always more epic for me, more intense because I don't like losing. Unlike some other players, I don't require a harsh sting of death in order for me to feel the need to fight all the harder or to savor my victories.
Failure to me is its own penalty and winning is its own reward and I feel both profoundly without any need for any harsh death penalty or any uber reward.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I love perma death idea. I play on perma death server in diablo 2.
But the developer probably don't like the idea of people quiting and stop paying them monthly subscription.
Diablo don't have this problem because it's pay once and play for a life time. So the developer already got your money. they don't care if you quit or not.
I think the concept of perma death can only be incorporated in a certain way. For example in SWG pre-cu. You become force sensitive and if you die 3 times your jedi turns into a ghost and no longer becomes useful. So we unlock a super hard, but super powerful prestige class that follows similiar rules. Otherwise I don't see perma death being accepted anywhere.
I suppose thats the reasons about no PermaDeath games in the market...
Clan Hispania
1) Instanced, Balanced Scenario PvP
2) No stupid "epic weapons" which make it where a skilled player can't beat a downsyndrome teenager with an epic sword. Fair-enough balance of equipment, playerskill, and character skill.
3) Fast leveling of skills, and the ability to obtain permanent skills up to AT LEAST the point beyond a newbie's ridiculously low skill level to prevent the most boring part of remaking a character (the newbie part from 0 to 25 skill level)
4) No levels. No levels. No levels.
What if..
1) It took only 1 day (lets say...5-12 hours max) to go from 50 skill points to 100 (max skill level).
OR
2) The difference between 50 and 100 skill level in PvP isn't as important as player-skill or teamwork.
OR
3) You never lose gold, because your character cannot lose gold.
OR
4) You cannot lose "epic", rare, or overly expensive items because they are bound to account instead of to character. Or the ability to INSURE or BLESS any item you wanted.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY==
5) The ability to slowly rise a permanent skill for all characters created UP TO 50 skill points. So once you "level up" that one skill to 50 points, you never have to level it up from 0 to 50 again. Only from 50 to 100. This insures real value to permadeath (100 skill level is VERY desirable compared to 50) but eliminates boring, dull repetition where you are constantly repeating the most boring part of character creation- having no abilities, no power, and being forced to fight chickens and rats for hours before returning to a VIABLE skill level (25-50)
For those touting insurance, once you have insurance you don't really have permadeath. You just have a money sink and a trap for the occasional idiot who doesn't buy insurance.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You guys are all over the map on what you think would be a solid way to have permadeath in a game. Normally I would say all the merrier but doesn't that kind of take awy the point of permadeath by doing this? Not to mention the sheer difference between what one feels the "permadeath" penalty should be compared to the next one?
Reading through this topic it's no wonder most devs won't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
DDO, which has 4 or 5 permadeath guilds across 4 or 5 servers, successfully implements permadeath. It draws from the game's RPG tabletop roots in which of course your character died permanently when he or she sustained too much damage. If you RP in MMOs, the miracle of constant resurrection is one of the hardest things to swallow.
If you don't RP, permadeath isn't for you. The only exception might be those who would like an extra challenge. It IS difficult and requires teamwork and no goofballs or Leroy moments. If you are attached to "things" and specific characters who live forever no matter the challenge, then you never played D & D and you are too soft for permadeath.
And that's ok. Current gaming encourages long-termcvommitment and the collection of various items so that you are invested in a character and will keep playing.
Permadeath guild members cherish their characters and mourn them when they are gone. Some continue to play them as alts, but they must be removed from the guild.
One option I have always thought of is a % chance for different things to occur upon death.
30% chance- Nothing. Successfully retreats and quickly recovers from all minor wounds.
10% chance- Ransom. The NPC (no one) or the PC who killed your character wants a (skill-based generated) RANSOM of , lets say 2000 gold. Once payed, you have access to the character again. If enemy was a PC, they get the ransom.
10% chance- Imprisoned. Cannot play character for (y) days [alternative to do a "Prison Break" quest with an alt"]
10% chance- Wounded. Cannot play character for (x) hours [alternative to use healing items or quests]
10% chance- Death, but an epic quest to "revive" the character.
10% chance- Poisoned / ill / diseased - must find "the antidote" via a quest within [x] in-game playtime hours before
10% chance- Lost - Permanently dead, but after (x) days the character comes back (surprise!) and was actually not dead, only lost. You get him back, or can "create" him again first thing once you have an open character slot if it's full. Perhaps the character gains extra XP while they're gone and "come back" with a few extra free levels or skill points as well as a new title "Gandalf the White".
10% chance- Killed. Permanently dead.
Why not do it this way? You die- and it's a big deal. There's a chance they won't die. In fact, 90% chance there is no perma death. There is a 60% chance you'll have to sacrifice Gold, Time (quests), or Time (waiting) to get the character again.
Technically, a character could die 100 times and not permanently die if they were lucky enough. Also, if unlucky every character you play could suffer perma-death.
This means if you die- it's JUST as risky as perma-death via FUN. I mean, there IS A CHANCE and a pretty high chance (10% is pretty high) but also there's A MUCH BETTER CHANCE 90% that some other (more fun, less punishing) things will happen that add to the realism of the game.
Afterall, not every character dies in books, movies, or roleplaying games. Often characters are captured, wounded, or are thought dead only to later return even more powerful.
I would never play an mmo that had permadeath. I like building up a character, and losing what I had worked for would not be any fun, which is why I play games: fun.
Not only would permadeath affect me, but it would not be fun if those I routinely group with were suddenly level 1 again and trying to get caught up.