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End Game Content, Is it really going to be worth it?
fistorm
Member UncommonPosts: 868
I would like to point people to look at the devs of this game and find out and ask them, whats end game going to be like? Because if you take ffxi end game, you may want to keep on waiting for another game. Theres no dispute about how great this game is going to look and play. Whats going to be the killer of a game like this, is the end game and how the devs think... If its anything like ffxi, the interviews of devs alone, show how they do not want everyone having the best gear in the game, and most people have raided for over six years in dynamis and still do not have a relic weapon. They have failed in that game to allow a rewarding progression for end game content, and for new people wanting to do end game content in ffxi was a joke, trying to get people to help you do anything in that game was just too hard, because the end game was based on a system of everyone helps and one person gets rewarded for it.... most things were so hard to do and challenging and not rewarding to repeat it for other people that trying to find someone to do some end content, such as final bosses on addons, or starting nyzul isle from first floor, was such a joke. Most people said they would help but, they would have to drop thier item they got from doing it in order to help do it again, or use up thier daily credit, which no one wanted to do, in order to help you do nyzul isle.
The list can go on, but end game content and the ability for new players to enter it was nonexistant.
During one interview a dev said that thier goal was to only have a few people in the game ever having the best items in the game. If you dont mind the fact that you can raid for seven years and still have second rate weapons, then this is probably the game for you.
Comments
Hm, sounds like someone is butthurt more than anything.
XI endgame is a poor example of how a horizontal progressive endgame can work like. It doesn't mean that the endgame of XIV will be as shit.
If you look at S-E pre-2006 and post-2006, the difference is massive. They didn't really "fix" the old content, but the new content for the most part is rock solid. And that is, frankly, all that matters when it comes to XIV. Past is not important, present is.
And yes, casuals can't get everything in this game. If you can't deal with that, this game is not for you. They did warn you that they weren't looking to steal players from WoW, after all.
End Game content is worthless to me. It's everything up to that point that i'm interested in.
All I got from reading this was "why cant i log in and get free epics and log off within 30 minutes?" this is not WoW. there is no vault. if people cant stand to earn their gear rather than mash keys for 10-15min after login and get 2 epic pieces, find another game.
My goodness, a brand new MMO still 6 months from release and your worried about what end game will be like. Unlike most other MMOs, and judging how FFXI works that should be the last of your worries if at all.
See a real MMO is about the journey and the adventures you create, hopefully with other players too. Then someday should you eventually run out of areas of the world to explore, have gotten the 20 classes all their skills, crafts and abilities learned and maxed out, completed every quest and mission...then maybe worry about if their is any end game to further advance your character.
End Game is a stupid concept for an MMO, cause its never really over, and why most devs feel the need to build their MMOs around such an idea; promising cookies and pie when you get there, instead of fleshing out the journey is quite stupid.
If by "earn" you mean stand around afk for 12 hours a day while 100 people sync their bots for claim, then no thanks.
While i agree with you on not liking instant gratification, the opposite end of the spectum that was XI hopefully doesn't show it's face.
Difficulty and battle planning is one thing. Game mechanics that encourage cheating to circumvent time investment is another.
I personally loved FFXI's endgame. So much variety
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
By its nature, FFXI was designed with an asiatic mindset. Not being net racist, but overall, the japanese mindset in MMOs is that you need to do exedingly hard amounts of work to get the best rewards... to the point of torture really. Go watch any of their gameshows and you will see what I mean.
All the mini-games were designed around the same way. Time invested was such a high scale in reward that it made it non-sensical to use.
Hopefully FFXIV does not follow this suit. I can understand learning tactics and jumping through hoops to get things done, but once it has been done, there shouldn't be a few year long ordeal in order to try to get something out of it.
Agreed, casual vs hardcore the casual shouldn't see all the rewards the game has to offer... but it shouldn't take the hardcore years to get that reward either.
Not in a combative way, but I'm curious who are you to determine how long it should take for others to obtain something that they've already decided for themself is worth getting? And in that context, who is any individual player to make such a determination?
And also, what in FFXI takes "years" to get? That sounds rather like hyperbole to me. In my 7 years playing it, I've never encountered anything that took even *a* year to get - except perhaps a fully upgrade piece of Relic gear. But even then, I've seen a few that were done inside of a year. That might be "too long" to you, and to others... but obviously not to all.
I've seen people who started years after me get more accomplished inside of a year than I've done in 7... including obtaining high-tier rare gear. One friend of mine got about 10 jobs to 75 and got an impressive collection of high-end "raid-level" gear... on *two* characters... in about a 2 year's timeframe, because they were persistent and determined, no to mention extremely pro-active, in doing so.
I've seen some people work toward something on a somewhat persistent basis - perhaps doing something once or twice a week to work toward it.. I've seen some work at it non-stop 'til they had it. There's many shades-of-grey in there. It's not a "one-size-fits-all" scenario and, thus, there is no one "ideal" amount of time to suit all players because not everyone's the same. What would be suitable to you would still be far too much for others.... and what's acceptable for those people would still be way too much for yet more... Before long, you're entering the realm of what is often considered "dumbing down the content". So where does a developer draw the line?
All that a developer can do is say "we have X Challenge, and it's going to require Y Effort to complete for Z Reward". And that's it. After that, it's entirely on the individual whether they decide to go for it and then how long it takes them to get it.
Again, if something is worth the time and effort for someone to go for, then they have that option - it's up to the individual. Otherwise, the game is perfectly playable without doing so.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Meh, really now.
This is the worst counter argument you could make about the endgame, especially when talking about how it affects XIV.
Yes, when doing endgame content developed 6 years ago you need to stand afk for 12 hours a day in a small area with 100 other people.
How this has anything to do with how XI is now, or how XIV will be in the future, I have no idea.
People talk like those mobs are what XI's endgame consists of, and completely ignore anything SE released afterwards.
That makes a bit sense considering SE was afraid of implementing better equipment to their overpowered first expansion equipment that completely threw "balance" out of the window and said "broken" events were still relevant years after.
But this is FFXIV for god's sake, what XI's endgame was like 6 years ago has no relevance whatsoever in this case. The present is what matters, because as much as it might make sense to some of you, I don't see SE developing much better endgame content for XI and then going "hey, let's repeat the same mistakes we made 6 years ago with this new game and throw everything we learned out of the window!"
If you ask me, what is most likely going to happen is that we'll see XIV's endgame consist of similar events as the newer XI's style, which is IMO much better and varied than with any MMO out there currently. SE was shit, XI's endgame events were shit, it is not the case anymore, and that is what we should look at when it comes to XIV.
That is all.
Wait, that's not all. WSIMike, it took me years to get "full" Salvage set for my Monk. Individual pieces were a different case, but I was aiming for the full set either way. I didn't mind, but I'd say lot of things in XI took more than a year to get. I still don't have a full Monk relic set after 3 years of dynamis, although I do have bits and pieces for many jobs.
But in the case of grind games the challenge is time. To me makes not much sense. Why should time be the only thing that makes up the challenge? Why not skill. For example let's say X boss drops something cool but we don't want everyone to have it. Now the way many mmo work is by lowering the drop to let's say 1 to 1000 kills. What if devs make this boss really hard so only 1 to 1000 peoples can kill it. This way we award the skills and not the time spent. This would work really well in a FF game because the combat is complex and not for everybody. Instead today when I see someone with a rare armor I don't think that this guy is good at the game but that this guy spent a lot of time and was lucky.
Because as a boss becomes more and more familiar, and better and better strategies are figured out, the success rate goes from 1 in 1000, to 100 in 1000 to 200 in 1000... an so on. Before long, the "difficult boss" isn't so difficult anymore, and those rare drops become common.
A low drop rate guarantees an item's rarity even after a mob - be it a normal world mob, or a raid boss - go into "Farm Status" for a group of people.
Once upon a time, it took people hours to kill Kirin. Not long ago, I was in a run that took him down 3 times in a single afternoon. We got the drops we wanted 2 out of 3 times. And by no means was my LS a "hardcore raiding" group. They do this almost every weekend as a "ls event".
I wouldn't call that a grind or something that takes "too much time".
When a raid boss is extremely difficult to beat and few have figured out how or managed to do so, then a higher drop rate might be understandable. It might be a good argument - to a degree - for something like Absolute Virtue. But when they get to the point where even a casual group can go on any given day and farm the thing 2-3 times...?
And, again... who is to say how much time it should take to acquire something? It's still up to the individual to make that determination. A friend of mine who works full-time, has a wife and child and dog and all the responsibilities that goes along with it didn't have much time to play FFXI... Still, he decided he wanted to get gear from Nyzul Isle... So he set up a group who could run each week during his available time, and got the gear. He decided he wanted Sky gear... He found a group that his schedule overlapped with and eventually got them. He didn't complain that FFXI didn't suit his schedule. He made his schedule work and set his expectations accordingly.
Others in his position would say "Well, I don't have the free time to get what I want as quickly as I'd like it, so it's not a good design and they should change it to make it easier". Well, to that I ask, again... Who is any one individual to determine how long it should take to obtain something, especially when everyone's schedules, play habits and expectations are different?
Again, all the developer can do is set up a given encounter to have specific requirements, and then leave it up to the players to decide how, or if, they approach it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's not so black and white, and I'm not really interested in telling the reasons why, but let's just say that it has to do with how horizontal endgame works. Vertical progression is different thing altogether, but I see problems with that style as well.
Think about this: If they make a mob hard for todays standards, it may not be hard anymore few years later. What makes this problematic is that the piece of gear would still be awesome, and now with good drop rates and lowered difficulty anyone could suddenly have it, which would kill the point of making the piece rare in the first place. This with horizontal progression.
You are honestly the only person I know of - of those I know who have actively set out to get either of those sets - who required that much time to get them.
Not saying you were doing something "wrong" or whatever... Just that there's a lot more to it than just "well, I wanted those sets and it took me 3 years, so therefor SE needs to fix it".
1. How often did you do runs?
2. How often were those runs successful, or at least successful enough to where a drop was even feasible?
3. On how many of those runs would a given drop you wanted have even been possible? (ie. certain drops only come from certain mobs, etc)
4. How many people were you claiming against for those items?
5. If applicable, how many of those runs were you at all elligible to roll on those items?
6. Of course, just pure chance comes into play as well.
... and so forth.
Again, I know of people who have full Salvage sets and full Relic sets and in no case did it take them anywhere *near* that much time to acquire.
Not questioning your account... Just saying.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Of course you can get the drops faster if you force the people to do the runs 7 times a week and only do areas that have a chance of giving you the drop.
It was the most balanced drop distribution that I've experienced, and I'm pretty proud of it. Everyone of us got full set in a quite short timespan, and no one was left out (although some people had worse luck than others, but overall it was balanced).
With 4 runs a week, for 2 years, we got everyone one full set. Successes were about 90% of those runs.
I'd say that's about as long as it takes if you do it semi-hardcore, without taking advantage of your fellow linkshell members.
I enjoyed it though, not saying it's bad. Once I got my full set, I knew it was gonna be good for years to come. The event was developed well enough to stay interesting too. It's cool.
I have to agree.
Once I hit "end game" I sort of make my own fun and slowly ween myself off of the game to do something else. The fun stuff is getting to the top, maybe doing some of the high end stuff. But repeating the same content over and over again isn't really my thing.
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I enjoyed FFXI endgame. I realized that there were things I would be able to obtain, based on the amount of time i could play, and things I would never obtain. I liked the aspect that not everyone had the top uber gear. I hope FFXIV's endgame is very similiar.
Again, it depended on what job/class you played. Mages had a lot of vertical gear progression in Salvage, while other classes had horizontal progression. There's a reason those 6 year old mobs are still camped on a daily basis.
I personally loved the direction SE went later on with Salvage and Einherjar, but a lot of it was implemented poorly. For me, my friends, and a lot of other people, it was too little too late.
I agree with you that i expect SE to have learned from their mistakes from 6 years ago. They also have to learn from their mistakes they made recently. Constantly adding in side-grade items with negative benefits so as to not replace 6 year old items is rather annoying.
So the OP's complaint is not about gear-based endgame raids, but the drop rate?
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I got my full set of BLM Dynamis gear in about 15 months. This was doing Dynamis once a week with a Dynamis LS that had approx 100 people so that if you logged into the LS too late you wouldn't able to go on the 64 cap run.
Out of the runs once per week, I probably missed 5 or 6 and we had a hell of a lot of BLM's in the LS.
Nothing. NOTHING. beats WoW at endgame.
That's a subjective statement open to debate.
IMO WoW is a victim of it's own endgame. WoW players now expect the theme park ride of scripted fights and gear advancement and deviation from it is a risky proposition for the MMO giant.
The 'victim' bit of this model is disposable content. Once content is no longer useful for players to advance their gear the vast majority ignore it. This leads to monotonous grinds of the same content for months as developers create the next raid instance that will obsolete the current.
Now enter an alternate model: FFXI's. Players can choose from all the end-game content the developers created and largely not be "wasting their time" on useless gear. This leads to variety in nightly activities. Now granted FFXI has plenty of grind; the difference is where it is.
In WoW you can mostly avoid grinding while leveling (though some players choose not to) and experience a wide variety of different activities. This all leads to grinding at end-game.
In FFXI you have to grind through the levels, but once you reach end game you can choose from a wider variety of activities.
IMHO WoW has the better leveling experience and FFXI the better end-game experience.
If you're looking to pick a fight I can make an objective statement of that =P
Well how long will it take to get to endgame is the question. And are they going to keep the stupid 100 pple work together but only 1 person rewarded so everyone ninjas system?
This is the last thing anyone should be thinking about, especially the way FFXIV is designed with an extremely heavy focus on lore and an intriguing story, and 20 different classes and crafts to work on, and a countless number of Guildleve to do. You should understand that even FFXI is not designed for rush to the cap and grind instances for sets of gear and then repeat a few months later.
There are so many different gear choices from crafts, battlegrounds, NMs and alliance type events to do throughout the entire adventure, you can make yourself look and feel this so called end-game at almost any level. Its also not about having the best-of-the-best gear to participate in each event either. Sure it helps having better gear, but anyone can show up in their lvl 52-60 Artifact gear at lvl 75 and still perform well enough to complete almost everything available. {Some events do require certain jobs to have sets of Haste, Fast Cast, Store TP, +HP, +MP and Elemental Resistance gear to be most effective though...}
awww great so it takes 2 years to reach cap.