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Carebears vs. Griefers: What happened to moderates?
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
It seems like in the modern MMORPG climate, both players and developers want to classify everyone as a carebear and a griefer with no inbetween.
Most games are made to cater to "carebear" players, having no non-consenual PvP at all. You don't have to worry about getting ganked in these games, but their lack of freedom can feel constraining and artifical. On the same token, some games, such as Darkfall, are made to cater to "griefer" players, featuring hardly any safeguards at all against non-consenual PvP. These games have freedom in abundance, but typically don't restrain griefing at all and are thus overpopulated by griefers, ruining the potential play experience for most players.
I find myself to be dissatisfied with both types of games. I yearn for the old style of game, such as UO, that offered freedom but weren't so overpopulated by griefers as to ruin the play experience for everyone else. I would love it if a developer made a game to appealed to the moderate player, players that don't want to play in a the safe "carebear box" but also don't want to spend most of their time being bullied by more experienced players.
My high level vision for this game would be for it to have the freedom to do just about anything you wanted (full loot, full PvP and stealing), but for there to be VERY harsh penalties (just like in reality) for commiting wantan murder. I want to play in a world that feels real with real danger. But this also includes living in a virtual society that isn't the medieval equivalent of Thunderdome.
What do you all think? Would a more "moderate" game appeal to you? Or do you like the polarized offerings that are present now.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Comments
My understanding is that Mortal Online does this very thing(3 murders and you go red). There was a thread here a couple days ago, from a greifer complaining about it.
Moderates are the silent majority in the middle that both sides think they can lay claim to but in reality neither do.
Moderates more or less either don't care or think both sides are whiners and stay out of the discussion.
Besides, it is the game mechanics who creates care bears and griefers, if the games were more realistic they wouldn't exist.
Carebears are usually up on their soabox and won't come down until they scare the developers into making changes.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I am a moderate, the majority of us are just tired of talking about it. This discussion has been going on since 1998 or earlier and I for one am just tired of it.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
There is a third group of players who like FFA PvP, but aren't griefers. They pretty much play like carebears, but they enjoy being in a PvP environment. It makes their activities more exciting knowing that another person might jump them at any time. For lack of a better term, I call this group of people 'insane.'
I don't think there's a large group of moderates though. Either people like FFA PvP or they don't. Anyone without a strong opinion either way probably hasn't been ganked yet.
We moderate, mellow, medium, average people are here. We think you're both nuts. Most of the time we keep that to ourselves.
Lol...yeah, I have to agree with this observation.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Generally speaking, the moderates are called carebears by the griefers and called griefers by the carebears. In their world, there are no moderates...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You mean the game saving changes that are required to get enough subs to keep the game afloat?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Amen to that. This topic has been beaten to death about a million times and most of us "moderates" as the OP calls us are just sick to death of it. This is why in most PvP discussions these days you only get the extremists viewpoints. The rest of us stopped giving a shit a long time ago. Most PvPer's want a good blend of PvE intertwined with PvP. This view that PvP has to be all or nothing is just stupid because nothing is as black and white as that. Most PvP'ers and in fact PvE'ers as well fall in the many shades of gray in the middle.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
No. Otherwise he would have said that. He meant the game destroying changes that are not required and lead to losing subs so the game becomes a floating pile of poo.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Just curious as ive yet to see a game tha caters to the griefers keep enough subs to be viable.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
We moderates are silently thankful that both sides are here, shouting from their respective soapboxes, rather than souring whatever game we happen to be enjoying at the time.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
That is because you are a carebear. And as I previously said, carebears only see carebears and griefers (griefers only see griefers and carebears). A game that caters to either is generally doomed.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Ever heard of the Lineage series or a little game called EVE? All 3 games have a good ballance of world PvE and PvP and are still going strong to this day. Heck before WoW Lineage II was the most populated P2P MMO on the planet by a wide margin... second was Lineage I. There are a lot more PvP centric games that are more than viable as well but you would know that already if you bothered to do a little research before you stuck your foot in your mouth.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I still think there griefers, not many people know about them as there millions of players around the world, players haven't got the message and they misbehave. I think it's hard to find care-bears around on public boards and online.
The online thing I would think about is that the whole world would mod themsleves online, everyone was Person of the Year 2005 in Time Magazine because of the internet.
Time had Hitler as Man of the Year back in 1938. Heck, Stalin was MotY at least twice, no?
2005 was actually Bono and Mr./Mrs. Gates. "You" was not until 2006.
Most Carebears are griefers in their own right, grabbing the hems of their skirts and blustering about to change the world...
...stay off of my lawn. Go fight with the Griefers somewhere else. There are folks trying to enjoy their games here.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
These forums are the last place to come looking for moderates.People here tend to only speak in absolutes and beleive thier opinions are god given truths lol.Moderate views ar eusually lost in the sctreaming between two extremist camps on any side of any issue in any thread.
Personally I hate mindless pvp. If I wanted to be stalked by the dredges of society I could just go to any major city and wait to get mugged or go back to my job at the prison and accomplish the same thing. If a game has pvp it has to have a purpose for me. That is why DAoC has the only type of pvp I have ever enjoyed.
I tend to stay away from asian grinders and gank fests so yeah im in the carebear crowd. Is Eve a game of griefers as well? From what ive read I thought it might be a well balanced game for both PVE and PVP. Guess that ones off my list of possible tries as well. I just go by what I see. Hardcore cut your balls off , I cant compete in real life people games usually fare pretty poorly in terms of subs.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Haha. Yes ive enjoyed some PVP at the county level myself. Interesting job at times but not something I would care to make a career of. I too enjoy well done PVP in a game but being constantly ganked while trying to level to massage someone self esteem is not my idea of a swell time.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Ok, I am outing myself as a convinced carebear. I am proud of being one. I understand gankers want their ways, and I wish them they get it in games like Darkfall, so they are all gathered there and leave me alone. There are a few things to say to the OP's article.
First, you must understand that Carebears and Griefers are victim and prey, not just merely two sides. We carebears want to be left alone, and they don't want to leave us alone. So it is not just "some two sides". That would be like saying raped victim and rapist are "just two sides".
Second, I guess most ppl are just moderates until they get griefed. Yes you SAY you are moderate. But trust me, some serious griefing and most of you will come here complaining just like us. My suspect is you moderates are mostly just carebears (or griefers) "in the closet".
My moral is: I do not force my will on others, I do not do harm, unless it is a duel or pvp arena with equal power on both sides. I have that moral in RL, and I treat other human beings in games the same. For true ethics, there can be no expections. Either I don't do harm to humans, ever, or I am not a good person. It's a matter of respecting another human being's personal sphere and integrity. Just that I don't see the person suffer behind his screen, doesn't rid me of my responsibility and ethical boundaries that I am a bad guy when I make someone suffer on purpose. It is something often forgotten in the internet, that there are real people behind those pixels and forum entries.
EDIT: Are you sure they IS something like a moderate? I mean, correct me but isn't "griefing" or "ganking" an absolute? Either you DO grief or you don't. You can't be a bit of a murder or a bit of a rapist either. It's yes or no.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Do you ever sell items on the market at a lower price than another player? If you are in a party, and an item would be an upgrade for you and another player - if it is more of an upgrade for them - do you let them have it? If you come across a spawn where somebody is killing a mob you need, do you go off and do something else while they are killing the mobs and come back when the spawn is clear or do you start killing mobs as well?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
“I think it's hard to find care-bears around on public boards and online.”
I am a care-bear. I am playing games that have PvE servers, consensual PvP duels, and controlled (selectable by me) PvP massive battles. I have personal reasons for that. I enjoy game graphic, solo and group combinatorics, but do not like the idea of “killing” (or being “killed” by) a real human hidden behind avatar: this reminds me my past in military service, that I would prefer to forget.
I treat griefers as natural disasters, lags, CTDs, blackouts that prevent me to enjoy the game. The term “griefing” has specific meaning:
http://classes.dma.ucla.edu/Spring04/161A/projects/Brian/nethate/grief.html :
“The term ‘griefing’ became popular with the proliferation of MMORPG's. Griefing is a term used to describe players whos sole intentions are to cause grief for other players. Griefer's usually participate in the theft of items from other online characters, unwarranted and unbiased player-killing, and even deception. Griefer's are a pain to the majority of players in a community as well as to the developers of a particular game. Griefers usually stay within the bounds and guidelines of the game, therefore they cause a miserable experience for other players, yet can't be disciplined by developers due to their abidance to the rules.”
http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2006/11/03/who-are-the-griefers/
“A griefer, is generally accepted as a person who derives enjoyment from being obstructive, diminishing the enjoyment of others, preventing the enjoyment of others, wasting your time, and so forth. Depending on the environment, there may be a wide variety of specific behaviours (kill-stealing, blocking, training, player-killing, team-killing etc).”
“I like to see you dieing” that was an answer of one player to my forum question what is so funny in PKing. We all have rights to choose our company in virtual space and when we have free time to play. This is not “my” company. I left this game/forum without any regret.
Having said that I will never vote for any changes in a game where game lore, story line foresees unlimited PvP, GvG, RvR, e.g Aion. This is simply not “my” game.