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How would you improve Hybrid turrets (Rails/Blasters) without making them OP and too similar to proj
Rockgod99
Member Posts: 4,640
in EVE Online
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how are they that different?
Projectile = high alpha damage
lasers = constant damage
Hybrids = a middle man, aka "hybrid"
I would make all the (T1) ammo have the same range modifiers, but correlate damage to tracking. Highest damage = lowest tracking.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
For blasters, They have highest damage but shortest optimal range. The issue with them is that most fights (when fighting skilled players) happen out of optimal range of blasters so the bonus is null in void. Basically most fights happen in the optimals of Lasers and Projectiles while Hybrids struggle.
They end up being the lowest damage turret type due to pitiful range compared to both lasers and Projectiles.
Rails have their own issues but honestly my expertise is kind of limited with them. I'll leave that to someone with more experience with them.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Rails definately do need to be improved - lowest sustained dps with mediocre tracking. Alpha is good for fleet fights, but thats about the only compliment I can give them.
Blasters, however, I don't feel need to be fixed at all. In fleet fights, of course, blasters are useless...but in small fleet pvp, warp to the tackled target at 0 and rape. Blasters have the highest dps of any other weapon type in game, and if/when the target is locked down they absolutely melt under blaster fire. My personal favorite ship is a blaster gank mega - I do well over 1k dps with 50k armor BEFORE fleet bonuses - I love it...sure its a situational ship, but it only takes one error on the other pilots behalf and its gg.
Just my .2 isk ;]
but don't hybrids have insane fall offs? and define "skilled players" fight out of optimal, if were talking about only ranged weapons then you should also be talking about the ships, have you tried sniping in a Rokh? last time i checked they could hit from quite a distance away. and if i'm correct in saying that hybrids have insane fall offs then you want to actually go FURTHER away, because your accuracy will decrease at a lesser rate than a laser or projectile, so while you may have a 25% chance to hit, they will have a 15% chance to hit if you are farther than their optimal range
Blasters are only a problem on slower ships that cant get on the gate fast enough to slug it out. My Alliance dislikes blaster boats in pvp....hell they barely tolerate rail boats. that being said its has nothing to do with the actual balance of the weapons but has everything to do with the current PVP meta. which lately has been fire and maneuver tactics most commonly associated sniper gangs of RR Battleships, Sniper Hac Gangs, Drake style Shield tanked Battlecruiser gangs (which are the most common and most effective flavor of the month ive seen in a long long time)
Generally speaking there are 2 sub-archtypes commonly fielded
Brawler RR BS. close-in high dps where you know you will be engaging close in on the gate. great for jumping opposing sniper gangs if you can catch them transiting and not at their respective sniper bookmarks. you see blaster megas often enough in these gangs, and they usually rape face.
Brawler BC gangs(shield tanked with scimitar logi). less common lately, although still very important. and alot of times more deadly than their BS brothers. this is due to the fact that the have greater mobility due to nano'd out lows and micro warp drives propeling them at 1k-1.5k ms a second. while the DPS is not as high as the BS, they have better lock times, better tracking (if your in a turret boat) and generally much cheaper + less skill intensive to fly. The bruitx tends to make the least effective brawler shield tank'd BC. therefore its fielded the least giving the preconception that blasters are bad. that all has to do with the fact you need to get inside scram range to do that...doing so with a ship already pretty fail at shield tanking is asking for it.
I would say that theres absolutely nothing wrong with blasters based off what they do and the pvp meta. Its frankly just not the flavor of the month.
I learned how to pvp in blaster boats.
Im more of a close range type of guy.
Before I cross trained both Minmatar and Amarr to BS/HAC/Command I was a dedicated Gallente pilot.
I fully understand that in a gang blasters are good when you actually have someone lock down your target.
Godforbid shit goes wrong and your left with you staring right at a Amarr or Minmatar close ranged boat and watch your shields/armor melt away while you tickle their shields.
Its a horrible experience. I've spent close to a year prefecting my Hybrid turret/gallente pvp and now that I fly other racial ships im telling you from experience its much much easier as an amarrian/minmatar pilot at close range.
With all of that said I have no idea how to make Blasters more viable against the other two turret types. For balance some would say give them all the same optimal/falloff and damage/damage types. But i would disagree since it would take the appeal of training those weapons to get a different experience combat wise between them.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
if you "fixed" optimals and range...you would either have to tone down the damage or risk OP weapons...like they used to be back in the day. toning down damage makes them the same as everything else. you either get cake or ice cream...and the ice cream is a boring flavor that does not satisfy anyone but missioners and girls with no boyfriends.
There is no balance issue here. its a meta issue. blasters are fine.
also Amarr are the slowest for getting into close range slugfests. Minmatar are the fastest,
In my opinion if something is required for pvp its not balanced.
If something it totally swore off for pvp it's not balanced.
You can talk about meta gaming and flavors of the month all you want but things are FotM for a reason. Because players using them have an advantage, they are the most optimal options for a particular situation.
If everything is swearing up and down that you shouldnt use blasters for this and for that then guess what? Blasters arent fine.
Think about it. What if a player is only skilled in blasters? those players can't pvp in a variety of situations? that's fine heh?
Edit: Please don't take my topic as a player crying. I love my gallente blaster boats. I only cross trained because I wanted to experience a different style of pvp. Its quite clear however that something is up with blasters if people are hating on them and asking players to cross train or not bring blaster boats.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is the data that I entered.
First two columns:
BLUE - Just the basic data for Light Neutron Blaster II and Antimatter
RED - The same with 200mm Autocannon and EMP S
Third and fourth columns:
GREEN - LVL5 skills, ship bonus from Incursus.
YELLOW - LVL5 skills, ship bonus from Rifter
Signature radius - 40m
Transversal - 150 m/s
This diagram show the hit chance.
This diagram shows the damage output.
It show that skills makes thing more even, foremost with improving the damage for the projectiles and improving the range for hybrids.
Now you can match up shiptypes modules. Whatever - Damage/Range/Tracking.
I think hybrids are perfectly fine (at least when looking at that diagram).
EDIT: Sorry I had not changed data for optimal and falloff without skills, and I had typed in to large damage for EMP S the thord column.
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"You have the right not to be killed"
Care to try that with 220mm vulcan II w Faction Emp M & Barage M vs Heavy Neutron II or Heavy Ion IIs with Faction Anti?
Blasters are decent for frigs I use the ishkur quite a bit actually the problem arises when you get into the bigger ships when one turret has a 10km falloff (15km with barrage) while yours is 4-5km (5-6 with nuet IIs). But the Hurricane and Brutix up there for comparison.
Ask any dedicated gallente pilot how many times they got kited to death by another close ranged boat when they first learned how to pvp lol. The answer will surprise you bro. Its like the number one way we die solo and small gang if thats not bad enough blasters are worthless in large engagements.
Edit: I think the number one reason people cross train from gallente/blasters is the pathetic optimal/falloff.
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nothing is rquired for pvp that im aware of. and blasters are not totally sworn off. as stated RR BS brawler gangs employ blaster megas with really really nasty success. I think the only short range BS that competes with them is pulse geddons and maybe the 800mm repeater tempest. which is nasty in its own right too, ableit less dps overall.
reguarding FOTM. ya. well thats why its flavor of the month. it doesnt mean its the ONLY option...just the best at the moment.
Drake Army fleets are wicked deadly and HARD to compete with..but missiles are generally reguarded as JUNK for pvp. does that make them unbalanced???? no, it just shows that there is potential for any precieved crap launcher/turret.
I remember when Zealots were the solo gank wagon of the month. right now its Angel Cartel ships. used to be the vaga, although the Vaga still gets used. nothing changed with the zealot since they were the FOTM. actually i believe lasers got better since then.
no ones swearing up and down they shouldnt be used. its just that people are predominately using sniper boats to fight right now. thus...well, you dont bring an AC hurricane to a sniper fight for a reason. My Alliance hates blaster boats less than they hate Istars. you are over reacting.
I have thought about it. and as a gallente char i remember when blasters WERE KING. its called cross training. most pure pvpers realize the benefit of crosstraining. perfect example. the Cnyabal. still get to use most of your blaster skills you trained in the form of secondary skills and gallente cruiser 5. and If you have large blaster spec skills you are by no means useless. if anything needs balanced its the OP faction shit that runs around raping left and right.
Blasters do not need to be balanced at all. there just needs to be a change in meta. there was a video floating recently around of a dude in a vindicator owning the shit out of a 15 man fleet solo in his blaster vindi. and it wasnt a t1 cruiser fleet. blasters are for brawler fleets.
there are only two options...vanilla them out...thus not doing anything to increase them getting used...or OP them like a few years ago and have everyone cry about them all over the forums. lncluding this one.
I sincerely believe your analysis is flawed. its purely a meta problem. if anything its a warp scrambler problem. people ask you not to bring them because you are useless dead. not because blasters suck. scram range = blasters = dead. the pro of this is...you nuke so hard even their babies cry. i FC a black ops gang that utilizes the proteus and the loki as the dps boats. the blaster proteus is by far that nastiest ship in the game. in my opinion.
You have more experience than I do bro. I can only give my own examples of my experiences as i started out as a solo/small gang blaster boat pvper. I know it takes a lot less skill for me to rape in a mini close range boat than it did as a gallente blaster pilot.
I was laughing the other day because i raped a couple guys my corp is at war with solo with a Cane. Honestly the only gallente ships i dust off these days are my Neut Domi and the ishtar both drone boats that either dont rely or rely on blasters as secondary shit like drone defense.
Then again im a different type of player, im kinda casual now and i mostly solo/small gang pvp im not FCing or seeing any large scale shit like I used to.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
.
This hard data backs up my post. its a meta thing.
Since hybrinds are a gallente thing, and that means drones are primary, I would leave damage as is and have the guns interface with the drones for tracking speed. If you have a drone on a target it should improve it immensely.
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Actually, they do have a possible ability to improve all weaponary already within the game, the scripts, all they need to do is just add weaponary versions for characteristic values, such as trajectory, tracking, and a few others. I'd also like to see more T2 ammo, that don't overall nerf the weapons, just having to base types of T2 ammo for Rails, Hybrids, Projectiles, and, Lasers, isn't the same as the T2 variants for missiles.
Stop smoking crack.
hybrids are used by caldari as well. and there is no correlation between gallente things and drones. every race uses drones. Only gallente are more heavily droneboats. how in the hell would interfacing guns with drones make sense. this would break the whole tracking mechanic in the game to a point where killing ourselves would be the only viable option.
Damage has never been the problem.
When(if) you get into range blaster fuck shit up.
A gank brutix fields medium drones, Neutron IIs with faction fucking antimatter and three stabs. When you turn on your turrets you actually hear "Mamma said knock you out" by LLcoolJ playing as your official pawnage soundtrack.
Edit: 1/3 of caldari ships use hybrids lol
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Waiting on: GW2, BP
Then we are moving up to cruiser size ships. Even if Gallente ships is not the only droneboats, it,s when drones comes into hand alot more than in frigate size ship. Moving up to Cruiser you are starting to get bonus to drones.
Yes the difference beetween hybrids and projectiles is more then in frigates. Frigate you got shipbonus to the range of hybrids for Gallente.
Still the biggest difference in that range is 5km, that is what 9km against 14km out.
Ya, sure, they lost and blame it on the blasters, then they whine on the forums and people just read and swallow. Not pathetic but not as good as the projectiles would be more honest description, range that is.
Or it could just be that people say "I know optimal range, transversal and all that" when in reality they don't.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I wish dude Its 3 to 6km vs 10-15km.
The difference is being in scram range and being kited by the fucker just outside scram range that has the ability to still use his mwd lol.
Optimal/falloff has always been an issue with blasters.
As a Gallente or even a Caldari blaster boat pilot you arent fighting against the other player your fighting to get into range.
It takes a while to learn how to do it effectively. I take pride in how good I am with gallente blaster boats to be honest with you.
Its one of those things in Eve that proves that in game experience and practice trumps skills.
Edit: you compared the wrong ships. Thorax matches up against the Stabber and the Vexor/Rupture are a better match. Rupture isnt known for its damage.
Man I miss that thorax, i killed my very first BS in one lol. goodtimes.
Edit: Im starting to get into 1v1 debate with you bro. This is turning into a Eft warrior convo. if you take optimal/falloff out of the equation through pvp small gang play then the Blaster boat is fucking insane. Problem is not everyone plays that way and if you've ever been in a 1v1 or 2v1 situation with other close range boats Optimal/falloff is damn near everything.
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Waiting on: GW2, BP
15-10 =5
14-9=5
You know it was the range differenc I was getting at, not 14 or 15kme, the damage output is the same for the two examples.
The kited one is aswell outside scramrange and can use his MWD, and at that distance, why do not people simply escape? Possible different scenarios with the kiter getting into scram range as being one of them. Yeah, people are aligning and pushing the warp button with blank minds.
All fit disruptors + scramblers ofcourse, and always that webber. And not only that they also have a MWD and Afterburner. At the smae time.
People do not wish to learn things, they just want to push that "circle around target" button and go get a cup of coffee
The ships have same bonuses, and we are not going into different fittings, using drones and whatnot. EFT warrior, copout?, then we are getting into different signatures, different transversal. As those also changes the dps/range. It's a diagram showing that there is a difference and how big/small it is.
Yes the range is better, I'm not debating that, I'm debating the call of it as you said last time -being pathetic. And the difference is getting eaten up by other things when moving from one hull to another.
In the end. This blaster vs projectiles is just an easy way to put blame on a loss. There is more into it than that. And there is alot of things to counter it and still be using blaster. The debate could go on into comparing dic, err, fittings. How do you counter that Myrmideon that is repping you damage from you autocannons while the drones eat you up etc etc. Range of the guns is just one amongst alot of thing to consider when fitting a ship, pick targets or 'defend' from them.
And one thing that I missed. As you say you killed a BS with a Cruiser. That shows aswell other aspects that make you win fights and the other losing them. You killed a BS I was close to killing a Deimos with an Ishkur. I made a Vagabond pilot bail out out of boredom against my Myrmidon, I've have had targets escape due to the range aswell as I escaped.
There is more into things than optimal and falloff range.
I still do not think blaster needs fixing the difference in range and the options avaible to counter that is not to hard to use. One can not win every fight.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
From my experience (All blaster skills max'ed), you just take too much damage trying to get into range. I love the boats but rarely fly them. If I'm tying to keep someone locked in a station the only real execption. I think they should make the ammo change out like lasers ammo, because even after you get in range you are going to get locked down. The way it is now, a good blaster pilot needs great speed, great tank, and great fire power, and no ship can fit all that.
One part of the Blaster "problem" is the use of armour buffers, active tanks are less common now due to various things like the nos nerf and larger gang sizes as well as neuts being more common so most people end up plating their blaster ships and fitting trimarks and then get frustrated because its more difficult to get up close to targets and being kited just doesn't happen beyond web range because with scrams killing MWDs small and medium turreted ships can find themselves unable to hit or experiencing a huge damage mitigation even when using specialised ammo like null in some cases applying as little as 30% of the theoretical maximum even to the appropriate hull size for the turret and in the case of small blasters applying almost 0% turret damage beyond 5-6km.
The increase in gang size has another affect to because if you are in a gang with several longer ranged ships like HAM drakes or pulse harbingers the target can be dead by the time you have walked over to the target.
To me a blaster fix would be to slightly un-nerf webs and maybe bring T2 webs back to 65-75% speed reduction and boost ammo, maybe a direct boost to nulls opt+falloff and give longer range T1 ammo a falloff bonus (so it wont give railguns larger optimals) and like the projectile ammo boost give middle of the road ammo like lead a tracking bonus. giving Gallente ships a modest agility boost wouldn't hurt much either along with an increase to the ships damage bonus and a boost to the active tanking bonus on the relevant ships.
A good case study for these effects are the Serpentis faction ships as they are incredibly powerful in solo and small gang pvp since they got boosted and the ships bonuses complement blasters making thier shortcomings easier to live with, unfortunately they are very expensive.
Railguns imo need a slight damage boost and slightly reduced fitting requirements or boost the ships because some of the Caldari railboats got extra turrets but no extra grid or CPU, railguns are a horrible compromise between artys and beam lasers they have high cap usage but the DPS is nothing like lasers but they neither have the alpha of artys, the range isn't that great either as you don't make much use of it and stick to the general range of the other ships in the fleet although it does have the saving grace of being able to use middle range faction ammo like thorium/lead when the other ships are using penalised T2 ammo which means the railguns get the same range but with greater relative tracking.
EDIT
Qazymans suggestion about the reduction or elimination of the reload time for blasters would be great to because currently changing from ammo like antimatter to null can really swing the fight into your opponents favour.
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Actually, railguns would be much more common if their tracking was a bit better. Another issue connected to that is the tier progression system. Popular railboats are lower tier, looking at the brutix and ferox for example. Due to the way tier progression works, they're inherently worse than their higher tier counterpart. Why fly a Ferox if the Drake is so much better? The Moa and Thorax are rather limited for everyday usage and frigates are hurt extremely hard by the tier problem. Ever seen a blaster atron?
Fix the tier progression, especially for battlecruisers and increase rail tracking. That way you'd create a niche for antisupport, trading damage for the ability to hit small targets reliably.
Blasterboats need a boost by reducing their vulnerability to warp scrams and webifiers. I always thought that webifiers should be signature dependent, but i guess that would overpower frigates way too much. Imo they should be able to dictate range once their get close, always. If a blasterboat comes close, it should automatically mean that the target will not be able to fly away anymore, but all blaster ships are severely limited in cpu and medslots. (ignoring the caldari hybrid ships here)
Gallente arent the only ships that use blasters and Im aware of the advantage faster more agile minmatar close combat ships have over slower plated gallente blaster platforms. When your in a slower ship, that's not damn near cap stable Optimal/falloff is the difference between living and dying (or simply flying off a failure lol).
My Eft comment is basically me saying I didn't want to get into a specific ship vs ship argument.
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