If CCP is going to just move some text around on the UI why even bother with a professional team?
All they need to do is read through a few thousand player suggestions.
Shit... Eve's playerbase is smart as hell they know whats wrong with the UI better than any freshly hired "professionals" do that have never even played with the UI.
I know the interface is a bit difficult to learn, but then there is so much functionality squeezed into such a small space I too struggle to see where improvments could be made.
I accept that certain things could be done better, smoother.. but the actual design itself is efficient and informative.
Not to diminish your comments though! I really would love to see what UI improvments could be made that would impact it in a significant way.
I know the interface is a bit difficult to learn, but then there is so much functionality squeezed into such a small space I too struggle to see where improvments could be made.
I accept that certain things could be done better, smoother.. but the actual design itself is efficient and informative.
Not to diminish your comments though! I really would love to see what UI improvments could be made that would impact it in a significant way.
I could see a revamp to drone UI, a more user friendly customization option for overviews (without actually changing its look). and maybe a easier to read and understand fleet UI,while again keeping the same look and feel that fits into the game oh so well.
maybe.. but its not disasterous like the ui in DDO which really does frustrate me. I certainly have never felt that it would warrant any special expansion or developers. I can name many other things in Eve that I'd want to see before this.
Although after saying that, if CCP feels its warranted I certainly look forward to being proven wrong.
edit: And seriously, did you actually say "non-scary" operations in one place? Do you pee yourself while looking at market details or something?
You need to read more carefully.
Also, good UI design doesn't mean "spam a thousand popups", "place similar things as far apart as possible" or "make it so it requires as many clicks as possible (see PI).
edit: And seriously, did you actually say "non-scary" operations in one place? Do you pee yourself while looking at market details or something?
You need to read more carefully.
Also, good UI design doesn't mean "spam a thousand popups", "place similar things as far apart as possible" or "make it so it requires as many clicks as possible (see PI).
What is there to read more carefully? It was there in the image. It was not like it was a case of there being some 1200 pages of text in a small font where the eyes might have gotten tired and somebody missed something.
I do not follow how a single popup asking if you are sure you want to Trash It to prevent an accident that you believe to be common which can only take place after you say yes and thus negates the possibility of it having been an accident is spamming a thousand popups.
Depending on what the interface is actually be used for, there will be some common techniques and design decisions as well as options and choices made specific to what is being done.
Grouping similar items because they are similar items makes sense. Grouping items to avoid accidents that are not possible until the items are more closesly located does not make sense. If you are going to group items that introduce the possibility of that accident actually taking place, then you need to take the extra precautions to reduce the chance of that accident to reduce not only the frustration on the player's part but also the increased burden your customer service and support staff will face.
At its base, you want to minimize the number of clicks and hierachy travel that a user must experience to accomlish common tasks while presenting both a coherent and cohesive interface within the limited real estate available based on varying resolutions and the scaling issues that may result from this...
...on the other hand, you do not need a UI Guru to reorder xml for menus.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
My only complaint is the painfully small text. I hate having to squint all the time. I usually keep a bottle of aspirin on hand.
This is my main problem with it too. If they made everything scalable I would be happy.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Seriously, how is this even an argument? Saying that the EVE UI is "fine" because people who have been playing the game for years have learned to use it is like saying Afghanistan is peaceful because not everyone gets killed every day.
There are so many aspects of the EVE UI that seem to have been designed by people who actively hate the players. The Corp management UI? Jesus dont get me started. Having "Self destruct" RIGHT FUCKING NEXT to "enter starbase forcefield password"? What the fuck where you thinking? "Trash It" right next to "stack items"? That's a fucking good idea, isn't it? Presumably one fromthe guy who keeps the rat poison next to the baby powder, both in unmarked glass jars.
Do I have to bold, underline and enlarge the part where I wrote that I never that said that?
Also, nice job trying to construct an argument out of nothing.
So the image that you linked, was not your work and you did not credit it to the person that did do it? Then that is a different story. You did not say some menu choices were scary, you simply agreed with somebody else who had and tried to pass that off as your own work. Glad you cleared that up for us...
...I did not try to construct an argument out of nothing. I simply pointed out you were arguing about nothing.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Seriously, how is this even an argument? Saying that the EVE UI is "fine" because people who have been playing the game for years have learned to use it is like saying Afghanistan is peaceful because not everyone gets killed every day.
There are so many aspects of the EVE UI that seem to have been designed by people who actively hate the players. The Corp management UI? Jesus dont get me started. Having "Self destruct" RIGHT FUCKING NEXT to "enter starbase forcefield password"? What the fuck where you thinking? "Trash It" right next to "stack items"? That's a fucking good idea, isn't it? Presumably one fromthe guy who keeps the rat poison next to the baby powder, both in unmarked glass jars.
This is an argument, because of people like you. Your second paragraph, is pretty damn retarded. Is anybody arguing against that some items might be more logical to group together? Not really, not that I've seen. Some have argued that other UI concerns should take greater precedence...and I agree.
Your second paragraph has a good idea, two worthless cries, and a lie. Some of the actual modals are pretty damn inefficient and appear to be just shy of offering evidence of the masochistic nature of the designers and developers. But then you present two accidents that cannot happen, so kind of worthless. If not for the language and caps, one might have thought it just a rational example of not grouping common elements as opposed to panty bunched hysteria. Then the analogy is extreme and epic fail. The glass jars are properly labeled and the rat poison is not as easy to open as the baby powder. This is where people like you just ramble on about inane things instead of focusing on actual UI improvements that can be made like others have.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Well all apologies for not presenting a rigorously edited proposal with illustrations and details to elucidate the blindingly obvious and widely accepted on a friday night. Go run a corp for a while, with no-one to teach you how the UI works, then come back and tell me that shit does not need fixing. To name but one god damb example.
Yes I can play EVE. Yes I can make stuff happen using the UI. Yes it pisses me off that I have to go 5 deep in to sub menus to get my gang to warp to a fucking moon when 75% of major battles in 0.0 are fought at... moons.
Jesus. I bet you'd argue against giving oxygen to a drowning man because after all science knows about anoxic life forms, and if they can make that work, why can't this guy? Why can't he HTFU?
Make a suggestion of how to improve a game in a way that you'd think NOONE could argue against.. (like Eve's UI or adding jumping to an MMO (FFXIV) and you've got people coming out of the woodwork with foam around their mouths... (And really? How can you argue against an MMO where the characters can jump two feet in the air??)
Some people are subconscious trolls in my opinion. Or perhaps a better way to describe them is simply: "contrarians". They will take the opposite side of ANYTHING... all the while thinking that their 'contrary' opinion was in fact really the way they felt.
But here, trolling or contrarians aside (again, how the heck can you argue against Eve getting some UI love??), I do think some people are saying:
"Eve's UI is functional, don't change it."..
I guess I can respect that.
But that said, geesh! OF COURSE Eve needs some UI love. It needs something to designate it as the premiere science fiction MMO of the 21st century!
My personal maxim when it comes to MMOs. Function is all well and good, but DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE FLUFF!
Fluff is good! Seriously don't underestimate the power that fluff can have on any game.. especially a strong one.
And by fluff, I don't mean the graphics, but I do mean eye-candy. I mean the little things, like the times you come across something that was surprising convenient and you smiled, and nodded your head because you knew someone somewhere had taken the time to make it that way (such as being able to right click on a faction item and choose the ability to search for said item under Contracts (not in place by the way).
When the trolls throw their "Eve is just spread-sheets in space" rocks, I have to acknowledge the truth of it.. cause the UI can feel that way. Theres a decided lack of "fluff" in Eve's UI. Its very barebones, and "functional".
So again, the solution is obvious: Give Eve's UI some loving! Make an option to play with the "old school" UI.
Everyone should be happy..
(right)
So MY ideas:
1) Let the Player have complete control over EVERYTHING in the UI. Let us import our own graphics, sounds, when a UI item is visible, when it fades, what the buttons look like, what place in the right-click menu certain options appear.. and etc (similiar to what Blizzard does with Wow).
(give the players the tools to design their own UIs and then turn the community loose).
2) Let the Old School Change Is Bad people have a checkmark they can press that lets them play with the "traditional/old UI"
2a) Or if #1 was to be implemented, the only thing that the #2 people would have to do is simply: not do anything. Simply don't install that new Eve UI Addon/Interface from EveInterface.com
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
Well all apologies for not presenting a rigorously edited proposal with illustrations and details to elucidate the blindingly obvious and widely accepted on a friday night. Go run a corp for a while, with no-one to teach you how the UI works, then come back and tell me that shit does not need fixing. To name but one god damb example.
Yes I can play EVE. Yes I can make stuff happen using the UI. Yes it pisses me off that I have to go 5 deep in to sub menus to get my gang to warp to a fucking moon when 75% of major battles in 0.0 are fought at... moons.
Jesus. I bet you'd argue against giving oxygen to a drowning man because after all science knows about anoxic life forms, and if they can make that work, why can't this guy? Why can't he HTFU?
Actually, I started playing EVE on May 1st, 2005. I was running my own by May 8th. When I started, we did not have all the fancy tutorials at the start. Character creation was worlds apart from what it is now. My guy's highest stat until they introduced the remap was CHA - because I started out as a trader. I paid attention to questions being asked in Rookie Help during the first thirty days. There was no WTZ and I was basically doing high-sec trading, so I spent time reading item descriptions in the market to learn more and more about the game. Did not need somebody to hold my hand willy nilly while trying to do the simplest things. People complaining about the learning curve in EVE at this point simply have no idea...so, based on the reason you gave - no it does not need fixing. To make it more efficient, having used it over the years - that modal and others could do with a redesign.
5 deep to warp gang to a moon? 1 left-click to switch to your celestial OV, 1 left-click to select the moon,1 right-click for menu, 1 left-click to warp fleet/gang. 4 clicks.
So you want the selected item thing to have a Warp Fleet/Gang button next to the Warp Button to save you...one click? You would still have to have the moon available as a selection and it would not be on your combat OV, so you would only save one click here. Still requiring 3 clicks.
Or if you had somebody that had scouted out the bookmarks for where you are going to fight - 1 right-click in space, move mouse to bookmark, and 1 left-click to warp fleet/gang. 2 clicks and a non-click?
You might even say that the first two would require an additional click to return to the combat OV.
How would you reduce that? Seriously, how? You need a list of the moons to pick one or a listing with the moon that you want, a means to select that moon, and then an option to warp the gang there. One could say since you know you will be travelling, you will already either be in your OV showing moons or have the bookmark...so you are basically already there. Are you actually complaining about the one additional click between doing it by menu as opposed to from a button on the selected item?
No, I would not argue about giving oxygen to a drowning man. That makes sense. What you are crying about is pathetic... and it makes life harder for those that read your posts, because mixed in there are actual issues - your reasons might be off but that is a minor distraction compared to some of the other stuff that would cause people to write you off completely - and thus those of us that agree with some of what you say will lose that support or from mentioning something similiar to what you said will end up being labeled in the same category as you. You not only are doing yourself a disservice, but you are also doing a disservice to others.
You are not a drowning man, but you sure as Hell are trying to drown the subject.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
How would you reduce that? Seriously, how? You need a list of the moons to pick one or a listing with the moon that you want, a means to select that moon, and then an option to warp the gang there. One could say since you know you will be travelling, you will already either be in your OV showing moons or have the bookmark...so you are basically already there. Are you actually complaining about the one additional click between doing it by menu as opposed to from a button on the selected item?
You sir, must be one of the "Eve is Fuctional, Don't Change It" people.
That's fine.
While I do find it a little "geeshish" as I stated previous, I can respect it.
However, do you not get why some people find the MANNER in which we go about doing things in Eve to be rather "spreadsheet-ish" (as much as I hate quoting the haters and trolls)?
And please remember, that we've been playing since 2005. It's very second nature to us.
Less clicks does not mean more intuitive or more "fun"
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
1) Let the Player have complete control over EVERYTHING in the UI. Let us import our own graphics, sounds, when a UI item is visible, when it fades, what the buttons look like, what place in the right-click menu certain options appear.. and etc (similiar to what Blizzard does with Wow).
(give the players the tools to design their own UIs and then turn the community loose).
2) Let the Old School Change Is Bad people have a checkmark they can press that lets them play with the "traditional/old UI"
2a) Or if #1 was to be implemented, the only thing that the #2 people would have to do is simply: not do anything. Simply don't install that new Eve UI Addon/Interface from EveInterface.com
CCP have stated that they will not give access to the APIs for the UI so that people can create custom UIs. I cannot blame them. And people wonder why with suggestions like this, folks in EVE simply say go back to WoW?
It is funny how progressives like to categorize the people opposed to certain changes as opposed to all change. It is not a case of "Change is Bad" in the least, it is a case of "Stupid Change is Bad"...
You are not going to be creating macros and new buttons in EVE with your custom UIs...sorry.
That being said though, fluff does matter to people and as has been mentioned; having a fluffier UI for people to use would not be a bad thing. No, I do not think it makes sense given the utilitarian nature of wartime efficiency in design; but if there was a toggable fluffy version with all sorts of additional graphics and the like - that would go a long way toward appeasing those that want that. The option to have pretty at times and then going to a "combat stations" sort of minimalistic approach while in combat, sounds like a pretty nifty idea.
At the same time though, fluff should not take precedence over function. It does not mean that the two cannot be in development at the same time, CCP simply needs to show a commitment to resolving issues while developing all their new and nifty things (whether fluff or not).
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
How would you reduce that? Seriously, how? You need a list of the moons to pick one or a listing with the moon that you want, a means to select that moon, and then an option to warp the gang there. One could say since you know you will be travelling, you will already either be in your OV showing moons or have the bookmark...so you are basically already there. Are you actually complaining about the one additional click between doing it by menu as opposed to from a button on the selected item?
You sir, must be one of the "Eve is Fuctional, Don't Change It" people.
That's fine.
While I do find it a little "geeshish" as I stated previous, I can respect it.
However, do you not get why some people find the MANNER in which we go about doing things in Eve to be rather "spreadsheet-ish" (as much as I hate quoting the haters and trolls)?
And please remember, that we've been playing since 2005. It's very second nature to us.
Less clicks does not mean more intuitive or more "fun"
He complained about the number of clicks involved, so I addressed that. The other guy addressed more of the fluff side, and I addressed how an additional UI would not be a bad idea in that sense.
I do not get why being opposed to stupid ideas means you are against change. I really do not.
EVE is functional, but it could do with some legitimate improvements. It could do with some legitimate fluff as well. There are all sorts of ways that EVE could be improved.
Him bitching about one additional click is just retarded... there is no getting around that. He had a point with the Corp modal and some of the other modals, they look like a business application still in the development stage suffering from feature creep. Those need to be cleaned up. But he did not just say that, he whined about not having anybody to explain it all... instead of saying that you can figure it out, but man - it needs some work.
EVE takes effort. I like that. I do not feel like I'm playing a game of Bejeweled like I do with most MMORPGs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
If there ends up being a huge action bar at the bottom of the screen with skill progress bar tucked underneath, stretched the entire length of said action bar...I riot.
He complained about the number of clicks involved, so I addressed that.
You addressed it by calling him: stupid, retarded and whining.
And you told me to go back to Wow for suggesting that CCP modulate its UI elementals.
Self-righteous much?
In telling me to go back to Wow you hinted at all the suspect activities I would be trying to get away with.. if only.. if only I could move my shield hud to the left of my ship and color it in descending hues of blue.. and have it fade away once it was full.
Well, to your oh-so-insightful (did I say self-righteous?) rebuttal, let me say this:
#1 Eve (nor you) are better off if I leave Eve to play Wow. Go #&$# yourself.
#2 In the context of a post stating that CCP has hired professionals to redesign Eve's UI, having someone suggest the idea of giving Players the tools to design their own UI.. has merit.
As for you implying that I just want this option so that I can create sneaky-little-macro'ing-buttons, let me clarify the idea:
Should CCP allow Players access to certain UI elements, they can in doing so, give us as much or as little control as they want.
What this means is: if CCP does not want us to create a button with an action they don't like (such as not allowing Release Drones to be Hotkeyable), they simply don't give us access to it.
The only person derailing this thread is yourself (and now me for letting myself be trolled (whether intentionally or not).
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
If there ends up being a huge action bar at the bottom of the screen with skill progress bar tucked underneath, stretched the entire length of said action bar...I riot.
I'm still looking for the XP bar!
(I think my UI is broken)
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
He complained about the number of clicks involved, so I addressed that.
You addressed it by calling him: stupid, retarded and whining.
On certain things, I said what he was asking for was stupid, retarded, and that he was whining about it. I pointed out how that detracted from his other good points. Also, I did not simply state that it was stupid - I went through the mechanics of what would be involved to some extent to do what he was looking to do...which is pretty much what we have now, so yes - complaining about an additional click on something that you are not doing constantly is kind of a waste of developer's time when they could be working on other things...
And you told me to go back to Wow for suggesting that CCP modulate its UI elementals.
Self-righteous much?
I never told you to go back to WoW. I asked how some people could wonder why somebody would tell them to go back to WoW for wanting to add features to EVE from WoW. You said like in WoW... the general reply to things like that would be to go back to WoW...which I did not state, only asked why somebody would get upset being told to do so when they have suggested adding in WoWesque features. You know, kind of like you got upset here when nobody even said it...
In telling me to go back to Wow you hinted at all the suspect activities I would be trying to get away with.. if only.. if only I could move my shield hud to the left of my ship and color it in descending hues of blue.. and have it fade away once it was full.
Never told you to go back to WoW, so I did not hint at anything. CCP has stated people will not have access to the APIs to create custom UIs. If you want to say they are hinting at the suspect activities that might ensue from that, knock yourself out...
Well, to your oh-so-insightful (did I say self-righteous?) rebuttal, let me say this:
#1 Eve (nor you) are better off if I leave Eve to play Wow. Go #&$# yourself.
Actually, this is pretty self-righteous of you. Do you think anybody would notice if you left?
#2 In the context of a post stating that CCP has hired professionals to redesign Eve's UI, having someone suggest the idea of giving Players the tools to design their own UI.. has merit.
Did you even bother to read what you said there? CCP has hired somebody to redesign the UI, so CCP should let players design their own UI. Why again then did CCP hire somebody to redesign it if they were just going to let players design their own? There is too much room for abuse, CCP is not going to do it. The fluff stuff, CCP having the current UI and one that is "pretty"...has merit.
As for you implying that I just want this option so that I can create sneaky-little-macro'ing-buttons, let me clarify the idea:
I did not imply anything. I have simply stated what CCP has said in regard to custom UIs and macros that often go along with those. If you want to get defensive about that, short of being one of those people that is always defensive, I have no idea what you are getting upset about here.
Should CCP allow Players access to certain UI elements, they can in doing so, give us as much or as little control as they want.
What this means is: if CCP does not want us to create a button with an action they don't like (such as not allowing Release Drones to be Hotkeyable), they simply don't give us access to it.
Guess what? CCP has decided. You do not have custom UIs. You do not have buttons. You do not have macros.
The only person derailing this thread is yourself (and now me for letting myself be trolled (whether intentionally or not).
Really? Because I would have thought that discussing redesign elements that the person CCP hired to do the redesign might have actually have been the topic of the thread - as people have stated, issues with some of the modals - reorganzing menus - making the OV easier to organize - adding an optional "fluff" UI - and several other good topics of discussion... while you, well - you've talked about players being able to design their own UIs. Just what does that have to do with CCP hiring somebody to do it?
You are kind of funny, in an odd way...I guess.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Make a suggestion of how to improve a game in a way that you'd think NOONE could argue against.. (like Eve's UI or adding jumping to an MMO (FFXIV) and you've got people coming out of the woodwork with foam around their mouths... (And really? How can you argue against an MMO where the characters can jump two feet in the air??)
Some people are subconscious trolls in my opinion. Or perhaps a better way to describe them is simply: "contrarians". They will take the opposite side of ANYTHING... all the while thinking that their 'contrary' opinion was in fact really the way they felt.
I don't get it, either. Some people just operate at a nexus of stupidity and arrogance -- a good cue is if they accuse the opposition of 'whining.' Suggest any improvement on any game, and you're 'whining' about its current state. Embarrassing.
What gets me is the hostility to any and all improvement. Take this thread for example:
The OP is calm and correct -- the lack of a take-all button *is* a design oversight, and absolutely no one would be harmed by its inclusion. Yet the very first response is some idiot shamelessly delving into hyperbole about the game being dumbed-down and accusing the OP of laziness*. He's not the only one, either; a couple more morons fail the three-digit IQ test, and they are (of course) assholes about it. Again, embarrassing.
(*I dread to think of how tedious our operating systems would be if all suggested shortcuts were vetoed on the grounds that they were simply indicative of user laziness. Good god.)
Re: the thread topic, I hope CCP does improve the interface. I haven't been playing too long, but I can think of a few improvements:
1) A take-all button when looting. No reason not do this.
2) I want double-clicking a window to either minimize it or close it; as it stands the main information simply vanishes while the toolbar remains. WTH? It's the worst of all worlds: I can't see the information anymore, and now there's a useless toolbar crowding my view.
3) More surface level information, even as customization options.
--I'd like to be able to see how much space is left in my cargo hold without clicking on it: have a "m3 remaining" counter somewhere.
--No more hovering over the wallet to see your ISK amount: put the visible number in a corner somewhere, and with the cents and sub-thousand dollars removed; just list the ISK in millions for easy readability (instead of "32, 289,170.59", "32.289 mil" will do nicely); clicking on this number should bring up the wallet, doubling its function and removing the need for the toolbar button.
--Make the main toolbar lockable to the top or bottom, a la Windows, instead of just the left side. There's a lot of vertical space empty because the toolbars only go a little over halfway down, so slide it to the top/bottom and that space can become horizontal to include the aforementioned numerical additions (cargo space remaining, current ISK, maybe skilltime remaining, etc.).
Blah blah. Hardly perfect ideas, but it's about time for an interface overhaul.
Comments
If CCP is going to just move some text around on the UI why even bother with a professional team?
All they need to do is read through a few thousand player suggestions.
Shit... Eve's playerbase is smart as hell they know whats wrong with the UI better than any freshly hired "professionals" do that have never even played with the UI.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I know the interface is a bit difficult to learn, but then there is so much functionality squeezed into such a small space I too struggle to see where improvments could be made.
I accept that certain things could be done better, smoother.. but the actual design itself is efficient and informative.
Not to diminish your comments though! I really would love to see what UI improvments could be made that would impact it in a significant way.
I could see a revamp to drone UI, a more user friendly customization option for overviews (without actually changing its look). and maybe a easier to read and understand fleet UI,while again keeping the same look and feel that fits into the game oh so well.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Aside from increasing text font size..I'd also like to see them 'spice up' the UI. Make it a lil more lively and engaging like we see in all the CG trailers they've been releasing recently: http://www.youtube.com/user/ccpgames?blend=2&ob=4#p/c/F614A7A6461E61E1/3/08hmqyejCYU
http://www.youtube.com/user/ccpgames?blend=2&ob=4#p/c/F614A7A6461E61E1/3/08hmqyejCYU
maybe.. but its not disasterous like the ui in DDO which really does frustrate me. I certainly have never felt that it would warrant any special expansion or developers. I can name many other things in Eve that I'd want to see before this.
Although after saying that, if CCP feels its warranted I certainly look forward to being proven wrong.
You need to read more carefully.
Also, good UI design doesn't mean "spam a thousand popups", "place similar things as far apart as possible" or "make it so it requires as many clicks as possible (see PI).
Hmm... imagine if they do that hologram UI we saw in the Tyrannis trailer?
Holy shit, welcome to lag city!!!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
What is there to read more carefully? It was there in the image. It was not like it was a case of there being some 1200 pages of text in a small font where the eyes might have gotten tired and somebody missed something.
I do not follow how a single popup asking if you are sure you want to Trash It to prevent an accident that you believe to be common which can only take place after you say yes and thus negates the possibility of it having been an accident is spamming a thousand popups.
Depending on what the interface is actually be used for, there will be some common techniques and design decisions as well as options and choices made specific to what is being done.
Grouping similar items because they are similar items makes sense. Grouping items to avoid accidents that are not possible until the items are more closesly located does not make sense. If you are going to group items that introduce the possibility of that accident actually taking place, then you need to take the extra precautions to reduce the chance of that accident to reduce not only the frustration on the player's part but also the increased burden your customer service and support staff will face.
At its base, you want to minimize the number of clicks and hierachy travel that a user must experience to accomlish common tasks while presenting both a coherent and cohesive interface within the limited real estate available based on varying resolutions and the scaling issues that may result from this...
...on the other hand, you do not need a UI Guru to reorder xml for menus.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
This is my main problem with it too. If they made everything scalable I would be happy.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Do I have to bold, underline and enlarge the part where I wrote that I never that said that?
Also, nice job trying to construct an argument out of nothing.
Seriously, how is this even an argument? Saying that the EVE UI is "fine" because people who have been playing the game for years have learned to use it is like saying Afghanistan is peaceful because not everyone gets killed every day.
There are so many aspects of the EVE UI that seem to have been designed by people who actively hate the players. The Corp management UI? Jesus dont get me started. Having "Self destruct" RIGHT FUCKING NEXT to "enter starbase forcefield password"? What the fuck where you thinking? "Trash It" right next to "stack items"? That's a fucking good idea, isn't it? Presumably one fromthe guy who keeps the rat poison next to the baby powder, both in unmarked glass jars.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
So the image that you linked, was not your work and you did not credit it to the person that did do it? Then that is a different story. You did not say some menu choices were scary, you simply agreed with somebody else who had and tried to pass that off as your own work. Glad you cleared that up for us...
...I did not try to construct an argument out of nothing. I simply pointed out you were arguing about nothing.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
This is an argument, because of people like you. Your second paragraph, is pretty damn retarded. Is anybody arguing against that some items might be more logical to group together? Not really, not that I've seen. Some have argued that other UI concerns should take greater precedence...and I agree.
Your second paragraph has a good idea, two worthless cries, and a lie. Some of the actual modals are pretty damn inefficient and appear to be just shy of offering evidence of the masochistic nature of the designers and developers. But then you present two accidents that cannot happen, so kind of worthless. If not for the language and caps, one might have thought it just a rational example of not grouping common elements as opposed to panty bunched hysteria. Then the analogy is extreme and epic fail. The glass jars are properly labeled and the rat poison is not as easy to open as the baby powder. This is where people like you just ramble on about inane things instead of focusing on actual UI improvements that can be made like others have.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Well all apologies for not presenting a rigorously edited proposal with illustrations and details to elucidate the blindingly obvious and widely accepted on a friday night. Go run a corp for a while, with no-one to teach you how the UI works, then come back and tell me that shit does not need fixing. To name but one god damb example.
Yes I can play EVE. Yes I can make stuff happen using the UI. Yes it pisses me off that I have to go 5 deep in to sub menus to get my gang to warp to a fucking moon when 75% of major battles in 0.0 are fought at... moons.
Jesus. I bet you'd argue against giving oxygen to a drowning man because after all science knows about anoxic life forms, and if they can make that work, why can't this guy? Why can't he HTFU?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I've seen this before.. in many games.
Make a suggestion of how to improve a game in a way that you'd think NOONE could argue against.. (like Eve's UI or adding jumping to an MMO (FFXIV) and you've got people coming out of the woodwork with foam around their mouths... (And really? How can you argue against an MMO where the characters can jump two feet in the air??)
Some people are subconscious trolls in my opinion. Or perhaps a better way to describe them is simply: "contrarians". They will take the opposite side of ANYTHING... all the while thinking that their 'contrary' opinion was in fact really the way they felt.
But here, trolling or contrarians aside (again, how the heck can you argue against Eve getting some UI love??), I do think some people are saying:
"Eve's UI is functional, don't change it."..
I guess I can respect that.
But that said, geesh! OF COURSE Eve needs some UI love. It needs something to designate it as the premiere science fiction MMO of the 21st century!
My personal maxim when it comes to MMOs. Function is all well and good, but DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE FLUFF!
Fluff is good! Seriously don't underestimate the power that fluff can have on any game.. especially a strong one.
And by fluff, I don't mean the graphics, but I do mean eye-candy. I mean the little things, like the times you come across something that was surprising convenient and you smiled, and nodded your head because you knew someone somewhere had taken the time to make it that way (such as being able to right click on a faction item and choose the ability to search for said item under Contracts (not in place by the way).
When the trolls throw their "Eve is just spread-sheets in space" rocks, I have to acknowledge the truth of it.. cause the UI can feel that way. Theres a decided lack of "fluff" in Eve's UI. Its very barebones, and "functional".
So again, the solution is obvious: Give Eve's UI some loving! Make an option to play with the "old school" UI.
Everyone should be happy..
(right)
So MY ideas:
1) Let the Player have complete control over EVERYTHING in the UI. Let us import our own graphics, sounds, when a UI item is visible, when it fades, what the buttons look like, what place in the right-click menu certain options appear.. and etc (similiar to what Blizzard does with Wow).
(give the players the tools to design their own UIs and then turn the community loose).
2) Let the Old School Change Is Bad people have a checkmark they can press that lets them play with the "traditional/old UI"
2a) Or if #1 was to be implemented, the only thing that the #2 people would have to do is simply: not do anything. Simply don't install that new Eve UI Addon/Interface from EveInterface.com
Actually, I started playing EVE on May 1st, 2005. I was running my own by May 8th. When I started, we did not have all the fancy tutorials at the start. Character creation was worlds apart from what it is now. My guy's highest stat until they introduced the remap was CHA - because I started out as a trader. I paid attention to questions being asked in Rookie Help during the first thirty days. There was no WTZ and I was basically doing high-sec trading, so I spent time reading item descriptions in the market to learn more and more about the game. Did not need somebody to hold my hand willy nilly while trying to do the simplest things. People complaining about the learning curve in EVE at this point simply have no idea...so, based on the reason you gave - no it does not need fixing. To make it more efficient, having used it over the years - that modal and others could do with a redesign.
5 deep to warp gang to a moon? 1 left-click to switch to your celestial OV, 1 left-click to select the moon,1 right-click for menu, 1 left-click to warp fleet/gang. 4 clicks.
So you want the selected item thing to have a Warp Fleet/Gang button next to the Warp Button to save you...one click? You would still have to have the moon available as a selection and it would not be on your combat OV, so you would only save one click here. Still requiring 3 clicks.
Or if you had somebody that had scouted out the bookmarks for where you are going to fight - 1 right-click in space, move mouse to bookmark, and 1 left-click to warp fleet/gang. 2 clicks and a non-click?
You might even say that the first two would require an additional click to return to the combat OV.
How would you reduce that? Seriously, how? You need a list of the moons to pick one or a listing with the moon that you want, a means to select that moon, and then an option to warp the gang there. One could say since you know you will be travelling, you will already either be in your OV showing moons or have the bookmark...so you are basically already there. Are you actually complaining about the one additional click between doing it by menu as opposed to from a button on the selected item?
No, I would not argue about giving oxygen to a drowning man. That makes sense. What you are crying about is pathetic... and it makes life harder for those that read your posts, because mixed in there are actual issues - your reasons might be off but that is a minor distraction compared to some of the other stuff that would cause people to write you off completely - and thus those of us that agree with some of what you say will lose that support or from mentioning something similiar to what you said will end up being labeled in the same category as you. You not only are doing yourself a disservice, but you are also doing a disservice to others.
You are not a drowning man, but you sure as Hell are trying to drown the subject.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You sir, must be one of the "Eve is Fuctional, Don't Change It" people.
That's fine.
While I do find it a little "geeshish" as I stated previous, I can respect it.
However, do you not get why some people find the MANNER in which we go about doing things in Eve to be rather "spreadsheet-ish" (as much as I hate quoting the haters and trolls)?
And please remember, that we've been playing since 2005. It's very second nature to us.
Less clicks does not mean more intuitive or more "fun"
CCP have stated that they will not give access to the APIs for the UI so that people can create custom UIs. I cannot blame them. And people wonder why with suggestions like this, folks in EVE simply say go back to WoW?
It is funny how progressives like to categorize the people opposed to certain changes as opposed to all change. It is not a case of "Change is Bad" in the least, it is a case of "Stupid Change is Bad"...
You are not going to be creating macros and new buttons in EVE with your custom UIs...sorry.
That being said though, fluff does matter to people and as has been mentioned; having a fluffier UI for people to use would not be a bad thing. No, I do not think it makes sense given the utilitarian nature of wartime efficiency in design; but if there was a toggable fluffy version with all sorts of additional graphics and the like - that would go a long way toward appeasing those that want that. The option to have pretty at times and then going to a "combat stations" sort of minimalistic approach while in combat, sounds like a pretty nifty idea.
At the same time though, fluff should not take precedence over function. It does not mean that the two cannot be in development at the same time, CCP simply needs to show a commitment to resolving issues while developing all their new and nifty things (whether fluff or not).
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
He complained about the number of clicks involved, so I addressed that. The other guy addressed more of the fluff side, and I addressed how an additional UI would not be a bad idea in that sense.
I do not get why being opposed to stupid ideas means you are against change. I really do not.
EVE is functional, but it could do with some legitimate improvements. It could do with some legitimate fluff as well. There are all sorts of ways that EVE could be improved.
Him bitching about one additional click is just retarded... there is no getting around that. He had a point with the Corp modal and some of the other modals, they look like a business application still in the development stage suffering from feature creep. Those need to be cleaned up. But he did not just say that, he whined about not having anybody to explain it all... instead of saying that you can figure it out, but man - it needs some work.
EVE takes effort. I like that. I do not feel like I'm playing a game of Bejeweled like I do with most MMORPGs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
If there ends up being a huge action bar at the bottom of the screen with skill progress bar tucked underneath, stretched the entire length of said action bar...I riot.
Originally posted by VirusDancer
He complained about the number of clicks involved, so I addressed that.
You addressed it by calling him: stupid, retarded and whining.
And you told me to go back to Wow for suggesting that CCP modulate its UI elementals.
Self-righteous much?
In telling me to go back to Wow you hinted at all the suspect activities I would be trying to get away with.. if only.. if only I could move my shield hud to the left of my ship and color it in descending hues of blue.. and have it fade away once it was full.
Well, to your oh-so-insightful (did I say self-righteous?) rebuttal, let me say this:
#1 Eve (nor you) are better off if I leave Eve to play Wow. Go #&$# yourself.
#2 In the context of a post stating that CCP has hired professionals to redesign Eve's UI, having someone suggest the idea of giving Players the tools to design their own UI.. has merit.
As for you implying that I just want this option so that I can create sneaky-little-macro'ing-buttons, let me clarify the idea:
Should CCP allow Players access to certain UI elements, they can in doing so, give us as much or as little control as they want.
What this means is: if CCP does not want us to create a button with an action they don't like (such as not allowing Release Drones to be Hotkeyable), they simply don't give us access to it.
The only person derailing this thread is yourself (and now me for letting myself be trolled (whether intentionally or not).
I love the UI. It works perfectly for me.
Be less retarded.
I'm still looking for the XP bar!
(I think my UI is broken)
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I don't get it, either. Some people just operate at a nexus of stupidity and arrogance -- a good cue is if they accuse the opposition of 'whining.' Suggest any improvement on any game, and you're 'whining' about its current state. Embarrassing.
What gets me is the hostility to any and all improvement. Take this thread for example:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1291592/page/all
The OP is calm and correct -- the lack of a take-all button *is* a design oversight, and absolutely no one would be harmed by its inclusion. Yet the very first response is some idiot shamelessly delving into hyperbole about the game being dumbed-down and accusing the OP of laziness*. He's not the only one, either; a couple more morons fail the three-digit IQ test, and they are (of course) assholes about it. Again, embarrassing.
(*I dread to think of how tedious our operating systems would be if all suggested shortcuts were vetoed on the grounds that they were simply indicative of user laziness. Good god.)
Re: the thread topic, I hope CCP does improve the interface. I haven't been playing too long, but I can think of a few improvements:
1) A take-all button when looting. No reason not do this.
2) I want double-clicking a window to either minimize it or close it; as it stands the main information simply vanishes while the toolbar remains. WTH? It's the worst of all worlds: I can't see the information anymore, and now there's a useless toolbar crowding my view.
3) More surface level information, even as customization options.
--I'd like to be able to see how much space is left in my cargo hold without clicking on it: have a "m3 remaining" counter somewhere.
--No more hovering over the wallet to see your ISK amount: put the visible number in a corner somewhere, and with the cents and sub-thousand dollars removed; just list the ISK in millions for easy readability (instead of "32, 289,170.59", "32.289 mil" will do nicely); clicking on this number should bring up the wallet, doubling its function and removing the need for the toolbar button.
--Make the main toolbar lockable to the top or bottom, a la Windows, instead of just the left side. There's a lot of vertical space empty because the toolbars only go a little over halfway down, so slide it to the top/bottom and that space can become horizontal to include the aforementioned numerical additions (cargo space remaining, current ISK, maybe skilltime remaining, etc.).
Blah blah. Hardly perfect ideas, but it's about time for an interface overhaul.