Yes, but by "sandbox", I don't need to impact the environment, but I do need to game in a "world" and not some trite linear storyline with on-rails gameplay. So "free range" world really, more than "sandbox". But "sandbox" is just fine.
problem with any pvp is, that even if it is not enforced, it strongly influence pve, since you have to balance skills for pvp rather then for pve. seriously i dont understand why when they are putting both pvp and pve into a mmorpg, why they dont just separate skills for pvp and pve - there is more or less no way, you could under current system (tank/dps/healer) balance skills for both pvp and pve
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
problem with any pvp is, that even if it is not enforced, it strongly influence pve, since you have to balance skills for pvp rather then for pve. seriously i dont understand why when they are putting both pvp and pve into a mmorpg, why they dont just separate skills for pvp and pve - there is more or less no way, you could under current system (tank/dps/healer) balance skills for both pvp and pve
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
Sorry to intrude upon both your conversations... just wanted to add my 2 cents here in what I experienced. Hellgate was one example I remember playing and being upset about what most companies call "rebalancing" and what most us gamers term "nerfing". I for one played Hellgate purely for its' pve aspects, and played the Templar. Well because of the complaints of pvp'ers stating that the Templar had too much damage reduction and that class could tank pvp forever and never die, they "rebalance" his class (or nerfed he Damage reduction). This made pvp'ers quite happy and at the same time anger the pve gamers.
Now don't get me wrong, I understand the pvp aspect in regards to this complain, and they had every right to complaint about rebalancing the Templar to make pvp more even and enjoyable, but it would have been nice if that didn't affect the pve aspects as the Templar became more of a spongy tank w/ the bosses and such. This was clearly a big problem for the "Hardcore" mode players that only get one life.
A good solution would be to have rebalancing of classes not effect either aspect, but apply reblancing on the fly in the background to the situation... unfortunately that would require more software changes, and would be like having 2 sets of skill percentage changes per class (hence one for pvp seperate from pve). Doing this might increase software bugs and as such is much more complicated from a developer's standpoint. Not saying it's impossible, but I can see it being difficult for them to do so.
Lets say someone released a sandbox mmo with a capless skill system.
The game focuses on non instanced dungeons, gaining fame with factions, world/rare boss monsters with a clear focus on co-op play and solo viability in a pve environment.
The game has a heavy crafting and non-combat (gathering, social) mechanic focus also.
While having a more pve/social focus the game offers pvp. A basic faction system with a couple dedicated pvp (flag enabled) zones that are completly optional.
Would you play this game.
A sandbox with pve progression from day 1, the option to pvp but it isnt forced and a real focus on social activities, rp and crafting/gathering.
Again would you play this?
I went with no....
When you put in the dedicated crafters, and things of that nature you once again go into virtual reality territory.
The whole mechanic that catches people in PVE is the gear treadmill....complete the challenge and get the prize. Which goes counter against a dedicated crafting system.
You also mention "sandbox"....as in place your own house/create in game content etc? If so then again a HUGE no. I am nmot interested in running thru barren areas ala SWG. Prefer the space be used for more "rides".
The PVP is exactly what it needs to be....optional. Good call on that. It is the other 2 systems that make me say no to your idea.
The skills vs lvl battle? I think devs find it easier to crank out balanced content when utilizing a class/lvl system. If they can do content for skill trees as easily as levels then I say NP. However if it is another "spin your wheels trying to balance stuff instead of kicking out content" ala SWG I once again say no thanks.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
How can someone constantly proclaim "we need sandbox everywhere, and politics blah" and in the same moment use a second account? In a SANDBOX game? Because he just goes for minmaxing, or class-based.
Rockgod = double standards and cheap flamer, apparently brainwashed by a stupid CEO.
Excuse me?
Are you talking about how I play Eve online? I have both a dedicated Pvp pilot and a Pve pilot. that makes me a min maxer?
Honestly its convienence. my mission runner/exploration pilot is stationed in Caldari space around 30-35 jumps from my pvp character thats in low sec right now at my corps POS.
I could pvp and pve with both characters if i wanted i just choose to keep their roles seperated.
Remember sandbox games are about choice, how someone wants to play.
Honestly If you arent refering to my alt in Eve then you lost me.
Also a sandbox that focuses on pve is still a "sandbox everywhere" being a sandbox and ffapvp enabled arent mutually exclusive.
problem with any pvp is, that even if it is not enforced, it strongly influence pve, since you have to balance skills for pvp rather then for pve. seriously i dont understand why when they are putting both pvp and pve into a mmorpg, why they dont just separate skills for pvp and pve - there is more or less no way, you could under current system (tank/dps/healer) balance skills for both pvp and pve
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
well thats exactly what i am refering to - they are identical .... and they imho shouldnt be - if you want to have both pvp and pve in game, each skill should have separate version for pvp and pve (or function only for one of those), otherwise you will probably never balance it for both
By "play" I assume you mean "enjoy playing for some time," because I'll play just about anything to try it for at least a month, usually a couple. I can have a lot of fun in a short time and bore of something pretty quick if I don't meet or make friends in the community. If it sounds unique, which your description obviously does, I'd almost certainly try it.
But generally most mechanics don't matter to me when I try something new. Whether or not a dungeon is instanced or non-instanced is just such a meaningless superficial aspect of a larger game that it could never mean the difference to me between playing for years and playing for days. I may prefer one or the other at any given time, but most of the mechanics you listed were such small parts of a bigger whole that I just couldn't find myself caring in advance whether it has a world boss, whether it has a skill system, or whether it has solo viability.
What does matter is how interesting I find the content. Is the art in the dungeon exceptional - does it have unique models - is it fun to explore and at times a meandering labyrinth - does it have memorable bosses - is designed to feel natural - does it evoke emotional feelings of foreboding, danger, intrigue, etc - are there many unique aspects to the world and things to learn? And these are just some of the questions I would ask about the dungeon itself, I could drone on and on with more questions for the other parts of the game.
If it has sandbox elements where I can build an entire city, brick by brick, and chop down the local forest to do it - hey, that's great, but it's not going to be the selling point for me and probably not the thing that determines if the game sinks or floats in the long run. It will be the more intangible successes that I listed above that go further to creating a game that feels like a real world than whether or not I can have my own hut and sell mass produced shields at inflated prices.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
problem with any pvp is, that even if it is not enforced, it strongly influence pve, since you have to balance skills for pvp rather then for pve. seriously i dont understand why when they are putting both pvp and pve into a mmorpg, why they dont just separate skills for pvp and pve - there is more or less no way, you could under current system (tank/dps/healer) balance skills for both pvp and pve
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
well thats exactly what i am refering to - they are identical .... and they imho shouldnt be - if you want to have both pvp and pve in game, each skill should have separate version for pvp and pve (or function only for one of those), otherwise you will probably never balance it for both
If the developer wants to go the extra nine and make every ability have a pve and pvp version then im all for it.
If they don't no big deal, it would be like the majority of mmos were certain skills/abilities are better for pve or pvp. Adapt or die.
problem with any pvp is, that even if it is not enforced, it strongly influence pve, since you have to balance skills for pvp rather then for pve. seriously i dont understand why when they are putting both pvp and pve into a mmorpg, why they dont just separate skills for pvp and pve - there is more or less no way, you could under current system (tank/dps/healer) balance skills for both pvp and pve
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
well thats exactly what i am refering to - they are identical .... and they imho shouldnt be - if you want to have both pvp and pve in game, each skill should have separate version for pvp and pve (or function only for one of those), otherwise you will probably never balance it for both
If the developer wants to go the extra nine and make every ability have a pve and pvp version then im all for it.
If they don't no big deal, it would be like the majority of mmos were certain skills/abilities are better for pve or pvp. Adapt or die.
That's a very realistic approach to look at it. The only time when I can personally think where there would have to be a difference between pve and pvp is the amount of damage vs armour. In pve, progress often requires more damage to take down bigger and badder mobs. In pvp, this isn't needed.
But there are ways and means of dealing with the differing "scales" between PVE and PVP. It's far from impossible, but the issue DOES need to be factored into the design at the very start, otherwise it could get messy.
This is really the style game I feel alot of us old school MMO players are waiting on.
I hope to see someone attempt something along these lines soon, if there is a game out there focusing on this style build I would be interested to learn of it.
But then again, I dont see any new pve sandbox/ SWG type game within the next 10 years. Development cost and qulity required by the players for new games, makes it harder to sell the concept to the decision makers.
but again if a good one came along i would try it.
This is really the style game I feel alot of us old school MMO players are waiting on.
I hope to see someone attempt something along these lines soon, if there is a game out there focusing on this style build I would be interested to learn of it.
Yep, this.
I wish just one developer would take a risk and make a game of this type instead of churning out another WoW wannabe. I think they'd be pleasantly surprised by the turnout.
I am a little confused as to what makes that game a sandbox. In a sandbox the players create the content, which is why it lends itself to PVP. Instanced dungeons and PVP scenarios are very much not like what I think of as a sandbox game.
I didn't read anything about Instanced dungeons and pvp scenarios in the OP.
He said something about non-instanced dungeons, roaming bosses and dedicated pvp areas.
What, in the game described in the first post, would make crafting viable? Would there be item decay, item destruction, would crafted items be better than drops?
I'd probably give it a go, but the mechanics would really have to work and the world would have to be immersive, though i like skill systems i am NOT a fan of capless skill systems, as new players would never be able to compete with older players within any given field, which would limit the longevity of the game severely.
What, in the game described in the first post, would make crafting viable? Would there be item decay, item destruction, would crafted items be better than drops?
I'd probably give it a go, but the mechanics would really have to work and the world would have to be immersive, though i like skill systems i am NOT a fan of capless skill systems, as new players would never be able to compete with older players within any given field, which would limit the longevity of the game severely.
Games like the op describes use a decay system. Armor wears through use and death slowly and cannot be repaired. This keeps crafted gear important in a game like this.
That doesn't mean you can't have rare drops but those drops will either break or need a crafter to reinforce them once they break.
If there are no actual drops then usually rare patterns or materials drop which is just as good if you ask me and keeps crafters in the game.
Lets say someone released a sandbox mmo with a capless skill system.
The game focuses on non instanced dungeons, gaining fame with factions, world/rare boss monsters with a clear focus on co-op play and solo viability in a pve environment.
The game has a heavy crafting and non-combat (gathering, social) mechanic focus also.
While having a more pve/social focus the game offers pvp. A basic faction system with a couple dedicated pvp (flag enabled) zones that are completly optional.
Would you play this game.
A sandbox with pve progression from day 1, the option to pvp but it isnt forced and a real focus on social activities, rp and crafting/gathering.
Again would you play this?
Wait, what? Didn't I already play this game over ten years ago? Yeah, I think it was called Asheron's Call...and it was awesome...
Hell yes I'd play a game like this. This is exactly what I'm looking for in an MMORPG.
Games like the op describes use a decay system. Armor wears through use and death slowly and cannot be repaired. This keeps crafted gear important in a game like this.
That doesn't mean you can't have rare drops but those drops will either break or need a crafter to reinforce them once they break.
If there are no actual drops then usually rare patterns or materials drop which is just as good if you ask me and keeps crafters in the game.
I know, playing Ryzom too
However, i dont think grinding a crafting skill up by actually making an item works, you end up with hundreds of things that you have to get rid of to clear inventory space and that destroys saleability of the given items, making player driven markets unworkable.
If it was a two stage crafting system (at least), one where you make things (grinding your skill up) that you then use to make actual items (much harder to get right successfully with a chance of failure based on skill) that would work I think. Though i don't think repairs would be a viable option unless they used as much or more materials to repair as to make a new item as then everyone would just have their existing items repaired again crashing end item markets.
Add in a quality of materials system affecting quality of product and i'd definitely give it a go
Games like the op describes use a decay system. Armor wears through use and death slowly and cannot be repaired. This keeps crafted gear important in a game like this.
That doesn't mean you can't have rare drops but those drops will either break or need a crafter to reinforce them once they break.
If there are no actual drops then usually rare patterns or materials drop which is just as good if you ask me and keeps crafters in the game.
I know, playing Ryzom too
However, i dont think grinding a crafting skill up by actually making an item works, you end up with hundreds of things that you have to get rid of to clear inventory space and that destroys saleability of the given items, making player driven markets unworkable.
If it was a two stage crafting system (at least), one where you make things (grinding your skill up) that you then use to make actual items (much harder to get right successfully with a chance of failure based on skill) that would work I think. Though i don't think repairs would be a viable option unless they used as much or more materials to repair as to make a new item as then everyone would just have their existing items repaired again crashing end item markets.
Add in a quality of materials system affecting quality of product and i'd definitely give it a go
You could take a leaf out of Vanguards / EQ2's book to deal with the masses of crafted items that you just need to ditch. There could be "Work Orders" which are given out by npcs who take particular crafted items as "hand ins" to complete the work order. Essentially, the Work Order is a crafting equivalent of a "hand in quest". This also gives the crafter a small source of income whilst they skill up, whilst at the same time ensures that the crafters bags aren't filled with 1000's of pointless items.
Of course, a more complex solution would be to ensure that even the lowest skill level items are ALWAYS in demand. Such as ammunition in Eve.
Comments
Yes, but by "sandbox", I don't need to impact the environment, but I do need to game in a "world" and not some trite linear storyline with on-rails gameplay. So "free range" world really, more than "sandbox". But "sandbox" is just fine.
I like it
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In the majority of MMO's, the skills you use in PVP are identical to the ones in PVE, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Sorry to intrude upon both your conversations... just wanted to add my 2 cents here in what I experienced. Hellgate was one example I remember playing and being upset about what most companies call "rebalancing" and what most us gamers term "nerfing". I for one played Hellgate purely for its' pve aspects, and played the Templar. Well because of the complaints of pvp'ers stating that the Templar had too much damage reduction and that class could tank pvp forever and never die, they "rebalance" his class (or nerfed he Damage reduction). This made pvp'ers quite happy and at the same time anger the pve gamers.
Now don't get me wrong, I understand the pvp aspect in regards to this complain, and they had every right to complaint about rebalancing the Templar to make pvp more even and enjoyable, but it would have been nice if that didn't affect the pve aspects as the Templar became more of a spongy tank w/ the bosses and such. This was clearly a big problem for the "Hardcore" mode players that only get one life.
A good solution would be to have rebalancing of classes not effect either aspect, but apply reblancing on the fly in the background to the situation... unfortunately that would require more software changes, and would be like having 2 sets of skill percentage changes per class (hence one for pvp seperate from pve). Doing this might increase software bugs and as such is much more complicated from a developer's standpoint. Not saying it's impossible, but I can see it being difficult for them to do so.
I went with no....
When you put in the dedicated crafters, and things of that nature you once again go into virtual reality territory.
The whole mechanic that catches people in PVE is the gear treadmill....complete the challenge and get the prize. Which goes counter against a dedicated crafting system.
You also mention "sandbox"....as in place your own house/create in game content etc? If so then again a HUGE no. I am nmot interested in running thru barren areas ala SWG. Prefer the space be used for more "rides".
The PVP is exactly what it needs to be....optional. Good call on that. It is the other 2 systems that make me say no to your idea.
The skills vs lvl battle? I think devs find it easier to crank out balanced content when utilizing a class/lvl system. If they can do content for skill trees as easily as levels then I say NP. However if it is another "spin your wheels trying to balance stuff instead of kicking out content" ala SWG I once again say no thanks.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Excuse me?
Are you talking about how I play Eve online? I have both a dedicated Pvp pilot and a Pve pilot. that makes me a min maxer?
Honestly its convienence. my mission runner/exploration pilot is stationed in Caldari space around 30-35 jumps from my pvp character thats in low sec right now at my corps POS.
I could pvp and pve with both characters if i wanted i just choose to keep their roles seperated.
Remember sandbox games are about choice, how someone wants to play.
Honestly If you arent refering to my alt in Eve then you lost me.
Also a sandbox that focuses on pve is still a "sandbox everywhere" being a sandbox and ffapvp enabled arent mutually exclusive.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
well thats exactly what i am refering to - they are identical .... and they imho shouldnt be - if you want to have both pvp and pve in game, each skill should have separate version for pvp and pve (or function only for one of those), otherwise you will probably never balance it for both
I game like the original Asheron's Call with modern graphics would absolutly rock ! Yes i would play such a game.
By "play" I assume you mean "enjoy playing for some time," because I'll play just about anything to try it for at least a month, usually a couple. I can have a lot of fun in a short time and bore of something pretty quick if I don't meet or make friends in the community. If it sounds unique, which your description obviously does, I'd almost certainly try it.
But generally most mechanics don't matter to me when I try something new. Whether or not a dungeon is instanced or non-instanced is just such a meaningless superficial aspect of a larger game that it could never mean the difference to me between playing for years and playing for days. I may prefer one or the other at any given time, but most of the mechanics you listed were such small parts of a bigger whole that I just couldn't find myself caring in advance whether it has a world boss, whether it has a skill system, or whether it has solo viability.
What does matter is how interesting I find the content. Is the art in the dungeon exceptional - does it have unique models - is it fun to explore and at times a meandering labyrinth - does it have memorable bosses - is designed to feel natural - does it evoke emotional feelings of foreboding, danger, intrigue, etc - are there many unique aspects to the world and things to learn? And these are just some of the questions I would ask about the dungeon itself, I could drone on and on with more questions for the other parts of the game.
If it has sandbox elements where I can build an entire city, brick by brick, and chop down the local forest to do it - hey, that's great, but it's not going to be the selling point for me and probably not the thing that determines if the game sinks or floats in the long run. It will be the more intangible successes that I listed above that go further to creating a game that feels like a real world than whether or not I can have my own hut and sell mass produced shields at inflated prices.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
If the developer wants to go the extra nine and make every ability have a pve and pvp version then im all for it.
If they don't no big deal, it would be like the majority of mmos were certain skills/abilities are better for pve or pvp. Adapt or die.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
That's a very realistic approach to look at it. The only time when I can personally think where there would have to be a difference between pve and pvp is the amount of damage vs armour. In pve, progress often requires more damage to take down bigger and badder mobs. In pvp, this isn't needed.
But there are ways and means of dealing with the differing "scales" between PVE and PVP. It's far from impossible, but the issue DOES need to be factored into the design at the very start, otherwise it could get messy.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Absolutely.
This is really the style game I feel alot of us old school MMO players are waiting on.
I hope to see someone attempt something along these lines soon, if there is a game out there focusing on this style build I would be interested to learn of it.
for sure, dude!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
If it is good. Yes of course I would.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Yes
As others.. if its good.
But then again, I dont see any new pve sandbox/ SWG type game within the next 10 years. Development cost and qulity required by the players for new games, makes it harder to sell the concept to the decision makers.
but again if a good one came along i would try it.
Yep, this.
I wish just one developer would take a risk and make a game of this type instead of churning out another WoW wannabe. I think they'd be pleasantly surprised by the turnout.
Virtual Reality
I might play it, it depends on various things. But I generally avoid games with no PvP.
I didn't read anything about Instanced dungeons and pvp scenarios in the OP.
He said something about non-instanced dungeons, roaming bosses and dedicated pvp areas.
Sandbox games are known to have those.
What, in the game described in the first post, would make crafting viable? Would there be item decay, item destruction, would crafted items be better than drops?
I'd probably give it a go, but the mechanics would really have to work and the world would have to be immersive, though i like skill systems i am NOT a fan of capless skill systems, as new players would never be able to compete with older players within any given field, which would limit the longevity of the game severely.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Games like the op describes use a decay system. Armor wears through use and death slowly and cannot be repaired. This keeps crafted gear important in a game like this.
That doesn't mean you can't have rare drops but those drops will either break or need a crafter to reinforce them once they break.
If there are no actual drops then usually rare patterns or materials drop which is just as good if you ask me and keeps crafters in the game.
Wait, what? Didn't I already play this game over ten years ago? Yeah, I think it was called Asheron's Call...and it was awesome...
Hell yes I'd play a game like this. This is exactly what I'm looking for in an MMORPG.
I know, playing Ryzom too
However, i dont think grinding a crafting skill up by actually making an item works, you end up with hundreds of things that you have to get rid of to clear inventory space and that destroys saleability of the given items, making player driven markets unworkable.
If it was a two stage crafting system (at least), one where you make things (grinding your skill up) that you then use to make actual items (much harder to get right successfully with a chance of failure based on skill) that would work I think. Though i don't think repairs would be a viable option unless they used as much or more materials to repair as to make a new item as then everyone would just have their existing items repaired again crashing end item markets.
Add in a quality of materials system affecting quality of product and i'd definitely give it a go
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
You could take a leaf out of Vanguards / EQ2's book to deal with the masses of crafted items that you just need to ditch. There could be "Work Orders" which are given out by npcs who take particular crafted items as "hand ins" to complete the work order. Essentially, the Work Order is a crafting equivalent of a "hand in quest". This also gives the crafter a small source of income whilst they skill up, whilst at the same time ensures that the crafters bags aren't filled with 1000's of pointless items.
Of course, a more complex solution would be to ensure that even the lowest skill level items are ALWAYS in demand. Such as ammunition in Eve.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I'll surely play it. Reason I dont' play sandbox game is because I don't like FFA full loot PvP.
I enjoy pvp, but only in dedicated pvp area.
But there isn't many people that want to play a sandbox game without FFA pvp.