Maybe more indy sandbox developers should look to SWG and AC as their inspirations instead of UO.
The last couple devs had sighted UO as their inspirations, wanting to create that perfect blend of UO and 3D.
So far all have failed to captivate older gamers due to lack of social features, lack of pve options and forced ffapvp with an unforgiving death penalty.
I think it's time to look to other games beside the pre-trammel era of gaming.
I'd say that based on the OP's description, I'd decline. Simply because what is being described is basically SWG Pre-CU,which whilst have some very nice points, felt lifeless and meaningless because I, as a player, didn't feel like the world story was progressing and immersing me in it.
For me, although I do agree that character progression is a BIG thing, it isn't the only ingredient that's needed.
For me, there has to be a good world story arc that itself progresses. That doesn't necessarily have to involve the player on a personal level (i.e. you AREN'T the "chosen one") but nevertheless attempts to immerse the player in a feeling of being involved in something grander than just their individual quests that they decided to do.
In other words, take something like the world story of SWTOR or WoW and fold that into the mix, and it might just capture my attention.
Still today I find that SWG was the most alive and immersive MMORPG ever made, for me it topped Meridian59 and UO, the world was actually a fully immersive world where we could set up shop, players would go out of their way's to find certain items/resources/weapons/armor, that it self was basicly a players quest without the game telling them what to do.
We had player shops, beats the hell ouf all these just auction type of lifeless MMO's, we had dynamic resource spwns which again felt more alive then most of those so-called lifeless A-Tittle MMO's with their static spwn points, the world was progressing as the player was progressing, for example some (like me) started with a small house, put in 1 vendor which later was build into large houses or bunker shops with several NPC merchants/vendors.
The missions terminals where just small cash machines or put in for those lacking the imagination of becoming part of the world, why need story when we already knew the story, I just wanted to life out my fantasy in a already known world.
But I do see your point as they should have put more focus into story and letting the story have conseqence in the gameworld, that was indeed missing and could have been done better, especially towards those players who primarily need a game to tell them what to do.
Then you had the whole we need to depend on eachother, where crafters needed to depend on combatants and the other way around, tons of times have a set up missions for hunters to gather certain meats/hides, which in return I rewarded them with either ingame money or crafted goods, I had tons of player requested crafting goods from low level players to cap lvl players.
To me that's how I thought MMORPG would evolve, instead of what most current games since WoW seem to deliver to it's players,which to me are mostly lifeless game "worlds".
Thanks to forums we don't have to agree with eachother, but just wanted to share a different viewpoint as to why SWG felt very much alive compared to you saying it felt lifeless.
As for OP, yes would play such a game, but unfortunaly these day's people seem to think that grouping is what makes a game social as they ignore every other aspect of what social can be within a MMORPG game.
For all its faults, SWG did indeed have a good foundation on which to build. A foundation that, if it had been developed further, may well have served the need of fans of BOTH sandbox and themepark MMO's. Unfortunately, that never happened. The pendulum of the SWG design swung from one extreme to the other. Even as a lover of themeparks, I don't find SWG post-NGE appealing. The devs just didnt do enough to actually make it appeal to me.
However, coming back to the OP. It is possible that the SWG Pre-NGE design COULD work again, but NOT solely in the state it was just prior to the NGE changes. Like I said in my initial reply, for it to appeal to me, it would have to have story progressive quest chains and world story progression which is linked into actual effects that could be experienced in the world (even if that's nothing more than "tax" rate changes in certain territories based on territorial control).
The problem is, that devs can't just slap together the SWG Pre-NGE design model and let players try it out, in order to prove that the model is worth time and resources to develop. It would take years of work to design from scratch.
That is, any other MMO development company except SOE....
The ironic thing is, that I'm willing to bet that copies of pre-NGE versions of the server and client software for SWG hide somewhere deep inside the vaults of SOE. If that truely is the case, then they could (if they wanted to), launch a "vanilla" SWG server just as it was (without ANY expansions), just to see what would happen. It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing either. it could just be allowed to run for a couple of months. Maybe charge players a one-off fee and don't charge a subscription.
This would actually give SOE the upper hand over its competition, because they could gauge the public reaction, which could then be used as justification for making a new MMO based on the same gameplay concepts but updated for todays market. The post-NGE SWG could still be left running and untouched by the pre-NGE trial. SOE certainly have the resources to do it.
Maybe more indy sandbox developers should look to SWG and AC as their inspirations instead of UO. The last couple devs had sighted UO as their inspirations, wanting to create that perfect blend of UO and 3D. So far all have failed to captivate older gamers due to lack of social features, lack of pve options and forced ffapvp with an unforgiving death penalty. I think it's time to look to other games beside the pre-trammel era of gaming.
To be honest I don't think a PvE sandbox would work as a successful mmorpg today. Players expect an immersive story, it isn't enough to have a pretty game world with random dungeons, it all just becomes RNG to gaming folks. UO and AC come from a different era of gaming, players were happy with just a fantasy world. Reality is nobody would sub to a PvE sandbox.
Lets say someone released a sandbox mmo with a capless skill system.
The game focuses on non instanced dungeons, gaining fame with factions, world/rare boss monsters with a clear focus on co-op play and solo viability in a pve environment.
The game has a heavy crafting and non-combat (gathering, social) mechanic focus also.
While having a more pve/social focus the game offers pvp. A basic faction system with a couple dedicated pvp (flag enabled) zones that are completly optional.
Would you play this game.
A sandbox with pve progression from day 1, the option to pvp but it isnt forced and a real focus on social activities, rp and crafting/gathering.
Again would you play this?
Rockgod, would you play a sandbox with classes? Do everything you mentioned above, but replace your skill system with a class system.
I personally dont' think that the method of progression, skills or classes, is the determining factor on a "sandbox" game.
If it is a skill system, I would much prefer a skill system like in Fallout or Kotor, where I earn skill points, and spend them, and NOT a use it to improve it skill system like DF which leads to macros and repetitive action JUST to bring up skills and for no other reason.
Lets say someone released a sandbox mmo with a capless skill system.
The game focuses on non instanced dungeons, gaining fame with factions, world/rare boss monsters with a clear focus on co-op play and solo viability in a pve environment.
The game has a heavy crafting and non-combat (gathering, social) mechanic focus also.
While having a more pve/social focus the game offers pvp. A basic faction system with a couple dedicated pvp (flag enabled) zones that are completly optional.
Would you play this game.
A sandbox with pve progression from day 1, the option to pvp but it isnt forced and a real focus on social activities, rp and crafting/gathering.
Again would you play this?
Rockgod, would you play a sandbox with classes? Do everything you mentioned above, but replace your skill system with a class system.
I personally dont' think that the method of progression, skills or classes, is the determining factor on a "sandbox" game.
If it is a skill system, I would much prefer a skill system like in Fallout or Kotor, where I earn skill points, and spend them, and NOT a use it to improve it skill system like DF which leads to macros and repetitive action JUST to bring up skills and for no other reason.
There are many kinds of skill systems on the market today. From macro friendly systems like UO and DF to the more passive system like Eve to a more class based system with a skill system under the hood similar to AO and SWG.
I've played an enjoyed them all to a certain extent.
Would I play a game like this if it had a class system? only if it used one similar to SWG or maybe AO where you selected a starter profession but then through a skill system you had free riegn on how to set up your character (not just a simple talent tree system).
I disagree with you on the progression system not making a sandbox game. Skill system is a must, either its the main progression of a character or the game has a profession system with skills under the hood.
A sandbox must give the player freedom when it comes to customizing an avatar (I dont mean appearance).
Once the skill system is put in place then other features are built on top of that.
A sandbox isnt a sandbox if it has a WoW type character progression, that simply isnt flexible enough.
This may sound weird considering that I answered "no" to this threads poll, but after contributing to this thread it occurred to me that some of what the OP is asking for could actually be implemented quite easily......by SOE.
Take a look at my new thread discussing the validity in launching a "New Hope" F2P Pre-NGE server. Please try to be civil and mature, if you are going to reply
I disagree with you on the progression system not making a sandbox game. Skill system is a must, either its the main progression of a character or the game has a profession system with skills under the hood.
A sandbox must give the player freedom when it comes to customizing an avatar (I dont mean appearance).
Once the skill system is put in place then other features are built on top of that.
A sandbox isnt a sandbox if it has a WoW type character progression, that simply isnt flexible enough.
I know some players think that:
Sandbox = skills
I think
sandbox = affect on game world.
Doesn't require skills to do that, but to each his own. I think really you're advocating a skill system instead of a class sytem, not so much a sandbox. And there's nothing wrong with that, some skill systems are indeed a lot of fun.
I like the skill systems in Borderlands, Kotor, and Fallout.
This may sound weird considering that I answered "no" to this threads poll, but after contributing to this thread it occurred to me that some of what the OP is asking for could actually be implemented quite easily......by SOE.
Take a look at my new thread discussing the validity in launching a "New Hope" F2P Pre-NGE server. Please try to be civil and mature, if you are going to reply
If SOE took todays NGE and reverted the game back to its original profession/skill system, nerfed item drops (a bit), returned the combat, animations & UI back to Pre-CU and kept all the pve content they've created since the NGE it would be the game everyone that clicked "Yes" to in this poll wanted.
It would be the ultimate world simulation, great class/skill options, meaningful crafting systems with themepark level Pve.
The chance of that happening is next to nill however.
Maybe more indy sandbox developers should look to SWG and AC as their inspirations instead of UO.
The last couple devs had sighted UO as their inspirations, wanting to create that perfect blend of UO and 3D.
So far all have failed to captivate older gamers due to lack of social features, lack of pve options and forced ffapvp with an unforgiving death penalty.
I think it's time to look to other games beside the pre-trammel era of gaming.
To be honest I don't think a PvE sandbox would work as a successful mmorpg today. Players expect an immersive story, it isn't enough to have a pretty game world with random dungeons, it all just becomes RNG to gaming folks. UO and AC come from a different era of gaming, players were happy with just a fantasy world. Reality is nobody would sub to a PvE sandbox.
ac wasnt a sandbox anymore than fallen earth is a sandbox. they're more like skill based themeparks. anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
I disagree with you on the progression system not making a sandbox game. Skill system is a must, either its the main progression of a character or the game has a profession system with skills under the hood.
A sandbox must give the player freedom when it comes to customizing an avatar (I dont mean appearance).
Once the skill system is put in place then other features are built on top of that.
A sandbox isnt a sandbox if it has a WoW type character progression, that simply isnt flexible enough.
I know some players think that:
Sandbox = skills
I think
sandbox = affect on game world.
Doesn't require skills to do that, but to each his own. I think really you're advocating a skill system instead of a class sytem, not so much a sandbox. And there's nothing wrong with that, some skill systems are indeed a lot of fun.
I like the skill systems in Borderlands, Kotor, and Fallout.
A skill system is the foundation of a sandbox game. In these games progression through a skill system is always important. In a game like WoW once you hit level cap, set your talents the main progression turns to item collection and is much more limiting.
Where in a Game like Eve or Ryzom players always work on their characters skill sets. Even if there are other forms of progression through features the skill system is the foundation not something that takes a back seat like in themepark games.
A skill system is the foundation of a sandbox game. In these games progression through a skill system is always important. In a game like WoW once you hit level cap, set your talents the main progression turns to item collection and is much more limiting.
Where in a Game like Eve or Ryzom players always work on their characters skill sets. Even if there are other forms of progression through features the skill system is the foundation not something that takes a back seat like in themepark games.
I know that's true for some players, such as yourself, but not all.
For you
skills = sandbox.
That's fine, but it's helpful to understand that is merely one view of the "sandbox" model.
Working on my character, IMO, has nothing to od with a sandbox.
The "sandbox" part of the game is the affect my character has on the world, not how many skills I have, not how high the skill progression goes.
anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
You seem to be making a big leap there. 129 votes, 90% of which said yes, does NOT provide adequate justification for a "SWG Pre-NGE" like MMO. its only 129 votes and you cannot just extrapolate that and interpret it to mean anything else. Its like arguing that the X-Fire numbers are accurate. They aren't necessarily so.
Plus, who says that players don't give a crap about story in a game? You've jumped to a conclusion there based on no factual evidence. The fact that Bioware have justified spending money on SWTOR proves otherwise. They wouldn't just throw money away like that unless they had a good reason to. Any other company would do the same.
And this is the problem. Some feel that the sandbox design still has life in it yet. But companies will often go for safer bets, which is why it's not surprising that there's more themepark games than sandbox games.
So what's needed is a way to "test" just how valid the sandbox design actually is in todays economic climate. SOE could actually pioneer that themselves by resurrecting a "SWG Pre-NGE" server.
A skill system is the foundation of a sandbox game. In these games progression through a skill system is always important. In a game like WoW once you hit level cap, set your talents the main progression turns to item collection and is much more limiting.
Where in a Game like Eve or Ryzom players always work on their characters skill sets. Even if there are other forms of progression through features the skill system is the foundation not something that takes a back seat like in themepark games.
I know that's true for some players, such as yourself, but not all.
For you
skills = sandbox.
That's fine, but it's helpful to understand that is merely one view of the "sandbox" model.
Working on my character, IMO, has nothing to od with a sandbox.
The "sandbox" part of the game is the affect my character has on the world, not how many skills I have, not how high the skill progression goes.
Having skills has ZERO affect on the world.
Skills are a foundation, without skills you have no connection since you can't do shit without them.
In Eve to be a pirate do you not need to train specific skills? then what if that same pirate wants to be an explorer does he not need skills?
Skills are a gateway to the game world are they now? to have true freedom you need skills if you don't a game basically is setting people on a linear path as a class system does than ultimately ends and turns into something much more limiting (item collection).
Another example in Ryzom I affect the lore by participating in Events. if I don't have skills to contribute I can't do anything. If i want to put my guild on the map and take over a POS if I dont atleast have the skills to heal bot i wont matter at all.
Again skills are the base, the foundation of every sandbox game, they never stop, your always working on a characters skills because through those skills they open the door way to true freedom and possiblities of ones avatar in a sandbox environment.
anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
You seem to be making a big leap there. 129 votes, 90% of which said yes, does NOT provide adequate justification for a "SWG Pre-NGE" like MMO. its only 129 votes and you cannot just extrapolate that and interpret it to mean anything else. Its like arguing that the X-Fire numbers are accurate. They aren't necessarily so.
Plus, who says that players don't give a crap about story in a game? You've jumped to a conclusion there based on no factual evidence. The fact that Bioware have justified spending money on SWTOR proves otherwise. They wouldn't just throw money away like that unless they had a good reason to. Any other company would do the same.
And this is the problem. Some feel that the sandbox design still has life in it yet. But companies will often go for safer bets, which is why it's not surprising that there's more themepark games than sandbox games.
So what's needed is a way to "test" just how valid the sandbox design actually is in todays economic climate. SOE could actually pioneer that themselves by resurrecting a "SWG Pre-NGE" server.
A sandbox could have a story, sandbox games are known to have mission systems, faction systems all can incorporate storyline. It may not be as fleshed out or as interesting as a lone hero storyline like we see in themeparks but it is a story its just completely optional in sandbox games.
In your sandbox... . Say John wants to build a wagon. He gathers up materials, finds a couple of horses to tame and he uses those to pull his wagon. He then starts a business delivering freight to neighboring towns. . Say I want to rob him. I follow the road into the woods and chop down a tree to block his path, knowing that John will have to stop to clear the tree before he can continue. . Will this scenario be possible in your sandbox? . To me, sandbox = freedom
Sandbox with good quest that give you a story line with great adventure puzzles.
Pls no hold hands or damn dots or arrows on map.
Make it so that casuals and hardcore have room for enough fun and play.
Some social things like play music(same as in AC2) or you can play chess in towns or maybe even play soccer.
I dont want a sandbox focussed again on grind grind grind raids raids raids kill boss kill boss kill boss items items items NO thankls.
Give a sandbox real feal of adventure secrets puzzles mistery sudden random mob invasions or whatever.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Maybe more indy sandbox developers should look to SWG and AC as their inspirations instead of UO. The last couple devs had sighted UO as their inspirations, wanting to create that perfect blend of UO and 3D. So far all have failed to captivate older gamers due to lack of social features, lack of pve options and forced ffapvp with an unforgiving death penalty. I think it's time to look to other games beside the pre-trammel era of gaming.
To be honest I don't think a PvE sandbox would work as a successful mmorpg today. Players expect an immersive story, it isn't enough to have a pretty game world with random dungeons, it all just becomes RNG to gaming folks. UO and AC come from a different era of gaming, players were happy with just a fantasy world. Reality is nobody would sub to a PvE sandbox.
ac wasnt a sandbox anymore than fallen earth is a sandbox. they're more like skill based themeparks. anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
I guess it is possible to define words anyway you wish. As for the poll I just think there is a tendency for people to vote for popular words, even though they are unlikely to occur.
Say John wants to build a wagon. He gathers up materials, finds a couple of horses to tame and he uses those to pull his wagon. He then starts a business delivering freight to neighboring towns.
.
Say I want to rob him. I follow the road into the woods and chop down a tree to block his path, knowing that John will have to stop to clear the tree before he can continue.
.
Will this scenario be possible in your sandbox?
.
To me, sandbox = freedom
We have games like that already. FFApvp sandbox games offer freedom to murderers, thieves and griefers while limiting non-aggressive players.
Only way the above scenario would work in a more pve focused sandbox is if the builder of this house/town built in a ffa pvp area for incresed rewards of doing so, then that player would be choosing his or her risk, fully accepting th consequences of their actions. Then you would have the ability to rob them.
If you want to just rob anyone in every area against one players playstyle I can direct you to a few games that offer than more aggressive gameplay focus.
A skill system is the foundation of a sandbox game. In these games progression through a skill system is always important. In a game like WoW once you hit level cap, set your talents the main progression turns to item collection and is much more limiting.
Where in a Game like Eve or Ryzom players always work on their characters skill sets. Even if there are other forms of progression through features the skill system is the foundation not something that takes a back seat like in themepark games.
I know that's true for some players, such as yourself, but not all.
For you
skills = sandbox.
That's fine, but it's helpful to understand that is merely one view of the "sandbox" model.
Working on my character, IMO, has nothing to od with a sandbox.
The "sandbox" part of the game is the affect my character has on the world, not how many skills I have, not how high the skill progression goes.
Having skills has ZERO affect on the world.
Skills are a foundation, without skills you have no connection since you can't do shit without them.
In Eve to be a pirate do you not need to train specific skills? then what if that same pirate wants to be an explorer does he not need skills?
Skills are a gateway to the game world are they now? to have true freedom you need skills if you don't a game basically is setting people on a linear path as a class system does than ultimately ends and turns into something much more limiting (item collection).
Another example in Ryzom I affect the lore by participating in Events. if I don't have skills to contribute I can't do anything. If i want to put my guild on the map and take over a POS if I dont atleast have the skills to heal bot i wont matter at all.
Again skills are the base, the foundation of every sandbox game, they never stop, your always working on a characters skills because through those skills they open the door way to true freedom and possiblities of ones avatar in a sandbox environment.
yea you could do all that with classes instead of skills.
the emphasis is on control of the game world, not your character.
That's what makes a sandbox.
I understand you like skills. Nothign wrong with that.
But you dont' need skills to make a sandbox.
You clould have a pirate class in EVE, instead of a Pirate skill.
You could have a class in Ryzom that lets you contribute ot events, instead of skills.
It's just progression.
You go from weak, to strong.
But can you affect the game world? Can you build something, craft something unique, control territorty, open up new areas, destroy things?
THAT distinguishes the themepark from the sandbox, IMO.
And skills do stop. They usually hit what's called a soft cap.
Originally posted by Rockgod99 Originally posted by uquipu In your sandbox... . Say John wants to build a wagon. He gathers up materials, finds a couple of horses to tame and he uses those to pull his wagon. He then starts a business delivering freight to neighboring towns. . Say I want to rob him. I follow the road into the woods and chop down a tree to block his path, knowing that John will have to stop to clear the tree before he can continue. . Will this scenario be possible in your sandbox? . To me, sandbox = freedom
We have games like that already. FFApvp sandbox games offer freedom to murderers, thieves and griefers while limiting non-aggressive players. Only way the above scenario would work in a more pve focused sandbox is if the builder of this house/town built in a ffa pvp area for incresed rewards of doing so, then that player would be choosing his or her risk, fully accepting th consequences of their actions. Then you would have the ability to rob them. If you want to just rob anyone in every area against one players playstyle I can direct you to a few games that offer than more aggressive gameplay focus. . The PvP part is pretty much a given in a sandbox world. It falls under freedom to do what you want which == sandbox. . I'm talking about the crafting of a wagon, the taming of horses and the chopping down of a tree to block the road. Or perhaps the guy wants to make a boat. I want to craft a thick rope to block the river. The possibilities are only restricted by real world rules.
Lets say someone released a sandbox mmo with a capless skill system.
The game focuses on non instanced dungeons, gaining fame with factions, world/rare boss monsters with a clear focus on co-op play and solo viability in a pve environment.
The game has a heavy crafting and non-combat (gathering, social) mechanic focus also.
While having a more pve/social focus the game offers pvp. A basic faction system with a couple dedicated pvp (flag enabled) zones that are completly optional.
Would you play this game.
A sandbox with pve progression from day 1, the option to pvp but it isnt forced and a real focus on social activities, rp and crafting/gathering.
Again would you play this?
I'd download a free trial I guess. The PvE would have to pretty awesome, non-repetitive and genuinely challenging, with real penalties for failure, though. In short it would have to be an adequate subsitute for the thrill and variability of engaging with real people. Very strong AI would be a must.
Sadly, I think the chance of such a game ever appearing are remote. It would require a focus on gameplay that publishers simply aren't willing to develop or sustain, and none of them seem capable of comprehending the idea of allowing their players to be content, which is the essence of a sandbox game. The development trend is strongly in the opposite direction. Are the MMORPG population forever condemned to have only one developer who makes such a game - and CCP are hardly noted for their focus on PvE content?
Side Note: TOR could have been this game, and for a little while, I was vaguely hopeful that it would be. Needless to say I no longer expect this. Blizzard had the IP, the budget, the storyline expertise and the garaunteed playerbase, so TOR was the best hope for such a game in this cycle. But no, they have taken the the cowards way out. Such a shame.
Oh well, 2 more years until we start seeing World of Darkness. I guess that's our next hope.
I'd download a free trial I guess. The PvE would have to pretty awesome, non-repetitive and genuinely challenging, with real penalties for failure, though. In short it would have to be an adequate subsitute for the thrill and variability of engaging with real people. Very strong AI would be a must.
Sadly, I think the chance of such a game ever appearing are remote. It would require a focus on gameplay that publishers simply aren't willing to develop or sustain, and none of them seem capable of comprehending the idea of allowing their players to be content, which is the essence of a sandbox game. The development trend is strongly in the opposite direction. Are the MMORPG population forever condemned to have only one developer who makes such a game - and CCP are hardly noted for their focus on PvE content?
Side Note: TOR could have been this game, and for a little while, I was vaguely hopeful that it would be. Needless to say I no longer expect this. Blizzard had the IP, the budget, the storyline expertise and the garaunteed playerbase, so TOR was the best hope for such a game in this cycle. But no, they have taken the the cowards way out. Such a shame.
Oh well, 2 more years until we start seeing World of Darkness. I guess that's our next hope.
Think ccp will make a pve sandbox out of World of Darkness? I assumed they would just make another hardcore mmo like Eve with strict death penalty.
Comments
Actually I would love to try a game like that. Give me a world to explore and other players i can travel or trade with and I would have a blast.
Maybe more indy sandbox developers should look to SWG and AC as their inspirations instead of UO.
The last couple devs had sighted UO as their inspirations, wanting to create that perfect blend of UO and 3D.
So far all have failed to captivate older gamers due to lack of social features, lack of pve options and forced ffapvp with an unforgiving death penalty.
I think it's time to look to other games beside the pre-trammel era of gaming.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Still today I find that SWG was the most alive and immersive MMORPG ever made, for me it topped Meridian59 and UO, the world was actually a fully immersive world where we could set up shop, players would go out of their way's to find certain items/resources/weapons/armor, that it self was basicly a players quest without the game telling them what to do.
We had player shops, beats the hell ouf all these just auction type of lifeless MMO's, we had dynamic resource spwns which again felt more alive then most of those so-called lifeless A-Tittle MMO's with their static spwn points, the world was progressing as the player was progressing, for example some (like me) started with a small house, put in 1 vendor which later was build into large houses or bunker shops with several NPC merchants/vendors.
The missions terminals where just small cash machines or put in for those lacking the imagination of becoming part of the world, why need story when we already knew the story, I just wanted to life out my fantasy in a already known world.
But I do see your point as they should have put more focus into story and letting the story have conseqence in the gameworld, that was indeed missing and could have been done better, especially towards those players who primarily need a game to tell them what to do.
Then you had the whole we need to depend on eachother, where crafters needed to depend on combatants and the other way around, tons of times have a set up missions for hunters to gather certain meats/hides, which in return I rewarded them with either ingame money or crafted goods, I had tons of player requested crafting goods from low level players to cap lvl players.
To me that's how I thought MMORPG would evolve, instead of what most current games since WoW seem to deliver to it's players,which to me are mostly lifeless game "worlds".
Thanks to forums we don't have to agree with eachother, but just wanted to share a different viewpoint as to why SWG felt very much alive compared to you saying it felt lifeless.
As for OP, yes would play such a game, but unfortunaly these day's people seem to think that grouping is what makes a game social as they ignore every other aspect of what social can be within a MMORPG game.
For all its faults, SWG did indeed have a good foundation on which to build. A foundation that, if it had been developed further, may well have served the need of fans of BOTH sandbox and themepark MMO's. Unfortunately, that never happened. The pendulum of the SWG design swung from one extreme to the other. Even as a lover of themeparks, I don't find SWG post-NGE appealing. The devs just didnt do enough to actually make it appeal to me.
However, coming back to the OP. It is possible that the SWG Pre-NGE design COULD work again, but NOT solely in the state it was just prior to the NGE changes. Like I said in my initial reply, for it to appeal to me, it would have to have story progressive quest chains and world story progression which is linked into actual effects that could be experienced in the world (even if that's nothing more than "tax" rate changes in certain territories based on territorial control).
The problem is, that devs can't just slap together the SWG Pre-NGE design model and let players try it out, in order to prove that the model is worth time and resources to develop. It would take years of work to design from scratch.
That is, any other MMO development company except SOE....
The ironic thing is, that I'm willing to bet that copies of pre-NGE versions of the server and client software for SWG hide somewhere deep inside the vaults of SOE. If that truely is the case, then they could (if they wanted to), launch a "vanilla" SWG server just as it was (without ANY expansions), just to see what would happen. It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing either. it could just be allowed to run for a couple of months. Maybe charge players a one-off fee and don't charge a subscription.
This would actually give SOE the upper hand over its competition, because they could gauge the public reaction, which could then be used as justification for making a new MMO based on the same gameplay concepts but updated for todays market. The post-NGE SWG could still be left running and untouched by the pre-NGE trial. SOE certainly have the resources to do it.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
To be honest I don't think a PvE sandbox would work as a successful mmorpg today. Players expect an immersive story, it isn't enough to have a pretty game world with random dungeons, it all just becomes RNG to gaming folks. UO and AC come from a different era of gaming, players were happy with just a fantasy world. Reality is nobody would sub to a PvE sandbox.Rockgod, would you play a sandbox with classes? Do everything you mentioned above, but replace your skill system with a class system.
I personally dont' think that the method of progression, skills or classes, is the determining factor on a "sandbox" game.
If it is a skill system, I would much prefer a skill system like in Fallout or Kotor, where I earn skill points, and spend them, and NOT a use it to improve it skill system like DF which leads to macros and repetitive action JUST to bring up skills and for no other reason.
There are many kinds of skill systems on the market today. From macro friendly systems like UO and DF to the more passive system like Eve to a more class based system with a skill system under the hood similar to AO and SWG.
I've played an enjoyed them all to a certain extent.
Would I play a game like this if it had a class system? only if it used one similar to SWG or maybe AO where you selected a starter profession but then through a skill system you had free riegn on how to set up your character (not just a simple talent tree system).
I disagree with you on the progression system not making a sandbox game. Skill system is a must, either its the main progression of a character or the game has a profession system with skills under the hood.
A sandbox must give the player freedom when it comes to customizing an avatar (I dont mean appearance).
Once the skill system is put in place then other features are built on top of that.
A sandbox isnt a sandbox if it has a WoW type character progression, that simply isnt flexible enough.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This may sound weird considering that I answered "no" to this threads poll, but after contributing to this thread it occurred to me that some of what the OP is asking for could actually be implemented quite easily......by SOE.
Take a look at my new thread discussing the validity in launching a "New Hope" F2P Pre-NGE server. Please try to be civil and mature, if you are going to reply
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282787
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I know some players think that:
Sandbox = skills
I think
sandbox = affect on game world.
Doesn't require skills to do that, but to each his own. I think really you're advocating a skill system instead of a class sytem, not so much a sandbox. And there's nothing wrong with that, some skill systems are indeed a lot of fun.
I like the skill systems in Borderlands, Kotor, and Fallout.
If SOE took todays NGE and reverted the game back to its original profession/skill system, nerfed item drops (a bit), returned the combat, animations & UI back to Pre-CU and kept all the pve content they've created since the NGE it would be the game everyone that clicked "Yes" to in this poll wanted.
It would be the ultimate world simulation, great class/skill options, meaningful crafting systems with themepark level Pve.
The chance of that happening is next to nill however.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
ac wasnt a sandbox anymore than fallen earth is a sandbox. they're more like skill based themeparks. anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
A skill system is the foundation of a sandbox game. In these games progression through a skill system is always important. In a game like WoW once you hit level cap, set your talents the main progression turns to item collection and is much more limiting.
Where in a Game like Eve or Ryzom players always work on their characters skill sets. Even if there are other forms of progression through features the skill system is the foundation not something that takes a back seat like in themepark games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I know that's true for some players, such as yourself, but not all.
For you
skills = sandbox.
That's fine, but it's helpful to understand that is merely one view of the "sandbox" model.
Working on my character, IMO, has nothing to od with a sandbox.
The "sandbox" part of the game is the affect my character has on the world, not how many skills I have, not how high the skill progression goes.
Having skills has ZERO affect on the world.
You seem to be making a big leap there. 129 votes, 90% of which said yes, does NOT provide adequate justification for a "SWG Pre-NGE" like MMO. its only 129 votes and you cannot just extrapolate that and interpret it to mean anything else. Its like arguing that the X-Fire numbers are accurate. They aren't necessarily so.
Plus, who says that players don't give a crap about story in a game? You've jumped to a conclusion there based on no factual evidence. The fact that Bioware have justified spending money on SWTOR proves otherwise. They wouldn't just throw money away like that unless they had a good reason to. Any other company would do the same.
And this is the problem. Some feel that the sandbox design still has life in it yet. But companies will often go for safer bets, which is why it's not surprising that there's more themepark games than sandbox games.
So what's needed is a way to "test" just how valid the sandbox design actually is in todays economic climate. SOE could actually pioneer that themselves by resurrecting a "SWG Pre-NGE" server.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I might play it. Depends on how fun the game is to play.
Sandbox or themepark really doesn't matter to me as long as it is fun.
Skills are a foundation, without skills you have no connection since you can't do shit without them.
In Eve to be a pirate do you not need to train specific skills? then what if that same pirate wants to be an explorer does he not need skills?
Skills are a gateway to the game world are they now? to have true freedom you need skills if you don't a game basically is setting people on a linear path as a class system does than ultimately ends and turns into something much more limiting (item collection).
Another example in Ryzom I affect the lore by participating in Events. if I don't have skills to contribute I can't do anything. If i want to put my guild on the map and take over a POS if I dont atleast have the skills to heal bot i wont matter at all.
Again skills are the base, the foundation of every sandbox game, they never stop, your always working on a characters skills because through those skills they open the door way to true freedom and possiblities of ones avatar in a sandbox environment.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
A sandbox could have a story, sandbox games are known to have mission systems, faction systems all can incorporate storyline. It may not be as fleshed out or as interesting as a lone hero storyline like we see in themeparks but it is a story its just completely optional in sandbox games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
In your sandbox...
.
Say John wants to build a wagon. He gathers up materials, finds a couple of horses to tame and he uses those to pull his wagon. He then starts a business delivering freight to neighboring towns.
.
Say I want to rob him. I follow the road into the woods and chop down a tree to block his path, knowing that John will have to stop to clear the tree before he can continue.
.
Will this scenario be possible in your sandbox?
.
To me, sandbox = freedom
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Sandbox with good quest that give you a story line with great adventure puzzles.
Pls no hold hands or damn dots or arrows on map.
Make it so that casuals and hardcore have room for enough fun and play.
Some social things like play music(same as in AC2) or you can play chess in towns or maybe even play soccer.
I dont want a sandbox focussed again on grind grind grind raids raids raids kill boss kill boss kill boss items items items NO thankls.
Give a sandbox real feal of adventure secrets puzzles mistery sudden random mob invasions or whatever.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
To be honest I don't think a PvE sandbox would work as a successful mmorpg today. Players expect an immersive story, it isn't enough to have a pretty game world with random dungeons, it all just becomes RNG to gaming folks. UO and AC come from a different era of gaming, players were happy with just a fantasy world. Reality is nobody would sub to a PvE sandbox.ac wasnt a sandbox anymore than fallen earth is a sandbox. they're more like skill based themeparks. anyhow, look at the poll - how can you say people dont want a pve sandbox??? devs are afraid to even try it because of baseless speculation like that. lots of players want gameplay and dont give a crap about story. when i want story i read a book or watch a movie.
I guess it is possible to define words anyway you wish. As for the poll I just think there is a tendency for people to vote for popular words, even though they are unlikely to occur.We have games like that already. FFApvp sandbox games offer freedom to murderers, thieves and griefers while limiting non-aggressive players.
Only way the above scenario would work in a more pve focused sandbox is if the builder of this house/town built in a ffa pvp area for incresed rewards of doing so, then that player would be choosing his or her risk, fully accepting th consequences of their actions. Then you would have the ability to rob them.
If you want to just rob anyone in every area against one players playstyle I can direct you to a few games that offer than more aggressive gameplay focus.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
yea you could do all that with classes instead of skills.
the emphasis is on control of the game world, not your character.
That's what makes a sandbox.
I understand you like skills. Nothign wrong with that.
But you dont' need skills to make a sandbox.
You clould have a pirate class in EVE, instead of a Pirate skill.
You could have a class in Ryzom that lets you contribute ot events, instead of skills.
It's just progression.
You go from weak, to strong.
But can you affect the game world? Can you build something, craft something unique, control territorty, open up new areas, destroy things?
THAT distinguishes the themepark from the sandbox, IMO.
And skills do stop. They usually hit what's called a soft cap.
Only way the above scenario would work in a more pve focused sandbox is if the builder of this house/town built in a ffa pvp area for incresed rewards of doing so, then that player would be choosing his or her risk, fully accepting th consequences of their actions. Then you would have the ability to rob them.
If you want to just rob anyone in every area against one players playstyle I can direct you to a few games that offer than more aggressive gameplay focus.
.
The PvP part is pretty much a given in a sandbox world. It falls under freedom to do what you want which == sandbox.
.
I'm talking about the crafting of a wagon, the taming of horses and the chopping down of a tree to block the road. Or perhaps the guy wants to make a boat. I want to craft a thick rope to block the river. The possibilities are only restricted by real world rules.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I'd download a free trial I guess. The PvE would have to pretty awesome, non-repetitive and genuinely challenging, with real penalties for failure, though. In short it would have to be an adequate subsitute for the thrill and variability of engaging with real people. Very strong AI would be a must.
Sadly, I think the chance of such a game ever appearing are remote. It would require a focus on gameplay that publishers simply aren't willing to develop or sustain, and none of them seem capable of comprehending the idea of allowing their players to be content, which is the essence of a sandbox game. The development trend is strongly in the opposite direction. Are the MMORPG population forever condemned to have only one developer who makes such a game - and CCP are hardly noted for their focus on PvE content?
Side Note: TOR could have been this game, and for a little while, I was vaguely hopeful that it would be. Needless to say I no longer expect this. Blizzard had the IP, the budget, the storyline expertise and the garaunteed playerbase, so TOR was the best hope for such a game in this cycle. But no, they have taken the the cowards way out. Such a shame.
Oh well, 2 more years until we start seeing World of Darkness. I guess that's our next hope.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Think ccp will make a pve sandbox out of World of Darkness? I assumed they would just make another hardcore mmo like Eve with strict death penalty.