However, if you read Meleagars blogs, its possible that he's referring to a game whereby the player still interacts with others, but progresses without having to put any effort in to progress and thus progression is automatic. There is already a game that does that, its called Eve Online. And the real-time offline leveling system is, in my opinion, the epitome of lazyness. Yes, leveling SHOULDN'T be the only focus in an MMO. But if you're going to remove it, you have to replace it with other encouragements to play. Which is something Eve DOESN'T do for me.
Er, EVE does replace it with other encouragements to play, from earning the ISK to pay for all of our endeavours, be it a Capitol Ship, a new statiion for your alliance, your own personal POS and modules in WH space (something that regularly drains my wallet these days) to paying for enhancements to your POD. (a full snake set costs a bloody fortune)
But EVE's not all about making ISK, its what you do with your cool toys that you buy thats the real game. I use my ships to make income of course, but I also fight mercs in empire, prosecute just about anyone I can find in WH space, have helped 2 alliances set up bases in 0.0 which exist to this day (even though my guys don't hold them anymore) and were I so inclined I could invest in Industry, Mining, Trading, Market manipulation or even scamming the unaware of their hard earned ISK.
MMO's don't have to be about jumping through endless hoops to "progress" your character and I say EVE's real time leveling system has nothing to do with being lazy (because many EVE players work very hard at succeeding in their endeavours) and more about liberating the gameplay so you can focus on what is truely fun in an MMO, and not endlessing grinding up your character for no good reason.
I would hope that a good PVE sandbox game would not be about running on the treadmill, it has to come up with more interesting mechanics than 'working' towards progression, it should be about living in the virtual world. That's not to say people can't work on things in game, such as crafting rare goods, or exploring dangerous areas, they just shouldn't find themselves killing boars for 2 months trying to advance their character.
Character advancement doesn't have to be passive either, it can come as a natural result of doing activities, just don't make it seem like such a grind in the process which is too often the case with most MMORPG's.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I definately would play such a game. It's something I've actually wanted for quite some time, and honestly don't know why there aren't any decent options for such.
There's too many games with an emphasis on kicking over other people's sand castles, rather than to build them together.
FFXI fits your description very closely. I don't think it offers any non-combative gameplay besides crafting, and the PvP that is in game is a bit more " sporty " in nature.
However, if you read Meleagars blogs, its possible that he's referring to a game whereby the player still interacts with others, but progresses without having to put any effort in to progress and thus progression is automatic. There is already a game that does that, its called Eve Online. And the real-time offline leveling system is, in my opinion, the epitome of lazyness. Yes, leveling SHOULDN'T be the only focus in an MMO. But if you're going to remove it, you have to replace it with other encouragements to play. Which is something Eve DOESN'T do for me.
Er, EVE does replace it with other encouragements to play
.......
I would hope that a good PVE sandbox game would not be about running on the treadmill, it has to come up with more interesting mechanics than 'working' towards progression, it should be about living in the virtual world. That's not to say people can't work on things in game, such as crafting rare goods, or exploring dangerous areas, they just shouldn't find themselves killing boars for 2 months trying to advance their character.
Character advancement doesn't have to be passive either, it can come as a natural result of doing activities, just don't make it seem like such a grind in the process which is too often the case with most MMORPG's.
I think you took what I said a little out of context. Like I said in that quote, it is just how Eve is to me. Eve doesn't provide me with the necessary tools to enjoy myself. Although I acknowledge that it does for others. The point is that Eve isn't the epitome of sandbox design. There are always ways to improve and at the same time maybe even capture a larger audience.
Personally, I like "working through progression" and therefore feel that if it is removed, then at least there should be gameplay elements to replace it with and thus encourage people to log in. Just providing a virtual world to run around in, but with no real direction, isn't enough for some people. Such is the traditional "sandbox" design.
Therefore, I agree that character progression shouldn't be passive, it should be kept as part of the whole gameplay experience.
However, if you read Meleagars blogs, its possible that he's referring to a game whereby the player still interacts with others, but progresses without having to put any effort in to progress and thus progression is automatic. There is already a game that does that, its called Eve Online. And the real-time offline leveling system is, in my opinion, the epitome of lazyness. Yes, leveling SHOULDN'T be the only focus in an MMO. But if you're going to remove it, you have to replace it with other encouragements to play. Which is something Eve DOESN'T do for me.
Er, EVE does replace it with other encouragements to play
.......
I would hope that a good PVE sandbox game would not be about running on the treadmill, it has to come up with more interesting mechanics than 'working' towards progression, it should be about living in the virtual world. That's not to say people can't work on things in game, such as crafting rare goods, or exploring dangerous areas, they just shouldn't find themselves killing boars for 2 months trying to advance their character.
Character advancement doesn't have to be passive either, it can come as a natural result of doing activities, just don't make it seem like such a grind in the process which is too often the case with most MMORPG's.
I think you took what I said a little out of context. Like I said in that quote, it is just how Eve is to me. Eve doesn't provide me with the necessary tools to enjoy myself. Although I acknowledge that it does for others. The point is that Eve isn't the epitome of sandbox design. There are always ways to improve and at the same time maybe even capture a larger audience.
Personally, I like "working through progression" and therefore feel that if it is removed, then at least there should be gameplay elements to replace it with and thus encourage people to log in. Just providing a virtual world to run around in, but with no real direction, isn't enough for some people. Such is the traditional "sandbox" design.
Therefore, I agree that character progression shouldn't be passive, it should be kept as part of the whole gameplay experience.
Eve is the epitome of sandbox because it offers the player choice of rules sets and gameplay options. It has nothing to do with whether someone likes or dislikes it. CCP perfected the foundation of a sandbox... Choice.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
What was our focus in Swg? Ryzom? Both these games have/had a huge pve/social focus with the option to pvp is one wanted.
Why can't a sanbox have optional storylines and quests?
Can't completing a hard pve raid, boss or challenge for rare materials, patterns or items be enough incentive?
What about live events? there are ways to make meaningful pve in a sandbox games without either turning them into a themepark or making the content unbelievably repetitive.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
Agreed. SWG and Ryzom offer the option of a pve/social focus but both lacked/are lacking due to repetitive content or lack incentives for one to complete them (in the case of ryzoms missions system).
This is why I put this poll up. we clearly have a pve focused sandbox or two on the market already. the issue is these games are either old, changed or lacking in non-repetitive content.
Eve is the epitome of sandbox because it offers the player choice of rules sets and gameplay options. It has nothing to do with whether someone likes or dislikes it. CCP perfected the foundation of a sandbox... Choice.
Its got EVERYTHING to do with whether someone likes or or not. That's the whole point of whether it's seen as the epitome of sandbox design. And if it WAS the epitome, then everyone would be playing it. But they aren't. Eve is FAR from perfect. It's unfortunate that people like you cannot accept the possibility that Eve has its flaws.
Eve's "choice" is an illusion. IF there was an equal choice then there would be equal incentives for the playstyles. But there isn't. So in effect, there is very little choice. Which is what turns people away from it. I'm not saying that Eve should change. I'm just stating a fact.
Lol, its got EVERYTHING to do with whether someone likes or or not. That's the whole point of whether it's seen as the epitome or not. And if it WAS the epitome, then everyone would be playing it. But they aren't. Eve is FAR from perfect. It's unfortunate that people like you cannot accept the possibility that Eve has its flaws.
He's pointed out the flaws in EvE and hes well aware that not everyone enjoys the game.
What hes saying is if every sandbox developer offered a player true choice as the foundation of their game and then built on that they would have a winner on their hands.
Imagine if AV did that? let the player set their own level of risk. give the player options within all kinds of rulesets. Would it not be the game a majority of the people here are looking for?
It has nothing to do with Eve itself as a game but that ccp gave players the choice, what choice do you have in DF? MO?
Look beyond eves spaceships and gameplay, there's something special about a game that lets someone share a universe as both a no risk carebear and a ffapvp ganker.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
Agreed. SWG and Ryzom offer the option of a pve/social focus but both lacked/are lacking due to repetitive content or lack incentives for one to complete them (in the case of ryzoms missions system).
This is why I put this poll up. we clearly have a pve focused sandbox or two on the market already. the issue is these games are either old, changed or lacking in non-repetitive content.
Add Eve to the list too.
I do agree, which is why I think rather than a "true" sandbox design, the industry should be look more towards a hybrid design model. Sandboxes are often non-linear, but lack the purpose and direction that a lot of players enjoy. Themeparks have that purpose and direction, but are often seen as linear and restrictive. A merge of the two IS possible.
Lol, its got EVERYTHING to do with whether someone likes or or not. That's the whole point of whether it's seen as the epitome or not. And if it WAS the epitome, then everyone would be playing it. But they aren't. Eve is FAR from perfect. It's unfortunate that people like you cannot accept the possibility that Eve has its flaws.
He's pointed out the flaws in EvE and hes well aware that not everyone enjoys the game.
What hes saying is if every sandbox developer offered a player true choice as the foundation of their game and then built on that they would have a winner on their hands.
Imagine if AV did that? let the player set their own level of risk. give the player options within all kinds of rulesets. Would it not be the game a majority of the people here are looking for?
It has nothing to do with Eve itself as a game but that ccp gave players the choice, what choice do you have in DF? MO?
Look beyond eves spaceships and gameplay, there's something special about a game that lets someone share a universe as both a no risk carebear and a ffapvp ganker.
Understand?
Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that Eve has certain qualities that are outstanding. But the whole product itself is far from perfect. That's what I took exception to, the insinuation about the whole product. Eve has some choice, yes, but it's hardly balanced in terms of the different playstyles. For instance, as far as PVE goes, Eve is guilty of repetitive grinding just like other "traditional" sandbox designs. Thus the Eve design model is far from perfect.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
Agreed. SWG and Ryzom offer the option of a pve/social focus but both lacked/are lacking due to repetitive content or lack incentives for one to complete them (in the case of ryzoms missions system).
This is why I put this poll up. we clearly have a pve focused sandbox or two on the market already. the issue is these games are either old, changed or lacking in non-repetitive content.
Add Eve to the list too.
I do agree, which is why I think rather than a "true" sandbox design, the industry should be look more towards a hybrid design model. Sandboxes are often non-linear, but lack the purpose and direction that a lot of players enjoy. Themeparks have that purpose and direction, but are often seen as linear and restrictive. A merge of the two IS possible.
You like tossing Eve into a "whats lacking" discussion whenever you get the chance aye?
While eve offers players the option to pve all day its still a pvp focused sandbox witht he option to pve. ccp is well aware of the limited pve in game and intends to keep it that way. I give them credit for even giving us the option.
Swg and Ryzom on the other hand are/we're Pve/social focused games with the option to pvp and boths games pve were lacking. if they weren't one of them would be in its original form and the other wouldnt have closed down three times.
Eve has no short comings in its pvp system like Swg and ryzom have in their pve.
You can't toss them in the same list. its like bitching because darkfall lacks in pve. if darkfall gave the option to pve like eve it could stay as is and would be perfect as a pvp sandbox.
Lol, its got EVERYTHING to do with whether someone likes or or not. That's the whole point of whether it's seen as the epitome or not. And if it WAS the epitome, then everyone would be playing it. But they aren't. Eve is FAR from perfect. It's unfortunate that people like you cannot accept the possibility that Eve has its flaws.
He's pointed out the flaws in EvE and hes well aware that not everyone enjoys the game.
What hes saying is if every sandbox developer offered a player true choice as the foundation of their game and then built on that they would have a winner on their hands.
Imagine if AV did that? let the player set their own level of risk. give the player options within all kinds of rulesets. Would it not be the game a majority of the people here are looking for?
It has nothing to do with Eve itself as a game but that ccp gave players the choice, what choice do you have in DF? MO?
Look beyond eves spaceships and gameplay, there's something special about a game that lets someone share a universe as both a no risk carebear and a ffapvp ganker.
Understand?
Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that Eve has certain qualities that are outstanding. But the whole product itself is far from perfect. That's what I took exception to, the insinuation about the whole product. Eve has some choice, yes, but it's hardly balanced in terms of the different playstyles. For instance, as far as PVE goes, Eve is guilty of repetitive grinding just like other "traditional" sandbox designs. Thus the Eve design model is far from perfect.
Again your focusing on Eves execution rather than the options it gives a player. im only speaking of other games letting players choose. I know Eve lacks in execution. this is where future mmos could improve.
If you don't give a player the choice your doomed to fail before you even begin.
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
Agreed. SWG and Ryzom offer the option of a pve/social focus but both lacked/are lacking due to repetitive content or lack incentives for one to complete them (in the case of ryzoms missions system).
This is why I put this poll up. we clearly have a pve focused sandbox or two on the market already. the issue is these games are either old, changed or lacking in non-repetitive content.
Add Eve to the list too.
I do agree, which is why I think rather than a "true" sandbox design, the industry should be look more towards a hybrid design model. Sandboxes are often non-linear, but lack the purpose and direction that a lot of players enjoy. Themeparks have that purpose and direction, but are often seen as linear and restrictive. A merge of the two IS possible.
You like tossing Eve into a "whats lacking" discussion whenever you get the chance aye?
While eve offers players the option to pve all day its still a pvp focused sandbox witht he option to pve. ccp is well aware of the limited pve in game and intends to keep it that way. I give them credit for even giving us the option.
Swg and Ryzom on the other hand are/we're Pve/social focused games with the option to pvp and boths games pve were lacking. if they weren't one of them would be in its original form and the other wouldnt have closed down three times.
Eve has no short comings in its pvp system like Swg and ryzom have in their pve.
You can't toss them in the same list. its like bitching because darkfall lacks in pve. if darkfall gave the option to pve like eve it could stay as is and would be perfect as a pvp sandbox.
I tossed Eve into there simply because you mentioned repetitive grinding. That's all
I wouldn't suggest Eve change it's model. It does what it does, and does it well. It's a good PVP game. But I think we all agree that Eve has its flaws in PVE. Likewise the others had/have serious flaws in PVE playstyle too.
Isn't that the whole point of your thread? To discuss a sandbox design model which attempts to iron out such flaws that are inherent in the "traditional" model and thus can possibly cater for audiences which the "traditional" model wouldn't normally cater for?
Again your focusing on Eves execution rather than the options it gives a player. im only speaking of other games letting players choose. I know Eve lacks in execution. this is where future mmos could improve.
If you don't give a player the choice your doomed to fail before you even begin.
Choice is good. But Eve doesn't have a balanced choice because its predominantly designed to be a PVP game. I'm not complaining about it, just stating a fact. I played Eve for a few months, tried to get into it, but found it severely lacking for me personally on a PVE level. Why? Because I felt it lacked direction and purpose in PVE.
Which is precisely what we're talking about here. The difference between sandbox and themepark designs and how one of the problems inherent in "traditional" sandbox designs can be addressed. Is it not?
I tossed Eve into there simply because you mentioned repetitive grinding. That's all
I wouldn't suggest Eve change it's model. It does what it does, and does it well. It's a good PVP game. But I think we all agree that Eve has its flaws in PVE. Likewise the others had/have serious flaws in PVE playstyle too.
Isn't that the whole point of your thread? To discuss a sandbox design model which attempts to iron out such flaws that are inherent in the "traditional" model and thus can possibly cater for audiences which the "traditional" model wouldn't normally cater for?
Of course.
I'm here because I don't want to resub to Ryzom lol.
While I want a pve focused sandbox the repetitive nature of that game keeps me into it for about three-four days and then i lose interest.
I would like a game that offers more, meaningful pve while giving players the option to pick and choose what they want to do.
A true world simulation where the community has a common goal against a common enemy.
I hate going back and forth about Eve. We tend to do it because Eve is the most popular sandbox on the market.
But Eve isnt my focus in this thread.
Having a better pve sandbox is. Will we ever get a better swg or ryzom? a better AC? who knows. This poll tells me atleast a small group would try it. But is that enough for a good developer to take a chance on it be it sandbox, hybrid or whatever.
I tossed Eve into there simply because you mentioned repetitive grinding. That's all
I wouldn't suggest Eve change it's model. It does what it does, and does it well. It's a good PVP game. But I think we all agree that Eve has its flaws in PVE. Likewise the others had/have serious flaws in PVE playstyle too.
Isn't that the whole point of your thread? To discuss a sandbox design model which attempts to iron out such flaws that are inherent in the "traditional" model and thus can possibly cater for audiences which the "traditional" model wouldn't normally cater for?
Of course.
I'm here because I don't want to resub to Ryzom lol.
While I want a pve focused sandbox the repetitive nature of that game keeps me into it for about three-four days and then i lose interest.
I would like a game that offers more, meaningful pve while giving players the option to pick and choose what they want to do.
A true world simulation where the community has a common goal against a common enemy.
I hate going back and forth about Eve. We tend to do it because Eve is the most popular sandbox on the market.
But Eve isnt my focus in this thread.
Having a better pve sandbox is. Will we ever get a better swg or ryzom? a better AC? who knows. This poll tells me atleast a small group would try it. But is that enough for a good developer to take a chance on it be it sandbox, hybrid or whatever.
You'll get no argument from me on the majority of your reply Rockgod.
Although one could argue that 210 votes isn't enough to justify time and resources on developing such a model. But nevertheless, I think that the future of MMO's is in the hybrid model. More freedom, less linearity, but still with purpose and direction.
I just can't make up my mind which would be more popular and achieve the greatest potential: a themepark MMO with sandbox elements, or a sandbox game with themepark elements. From a financial standpoint, one could argue in favour of the themepark with sandbox elements. On the other hand a sandbox with themepark elements has a greater potential to be more flexible.
Maybe I'm just focusing on irrelevant semantics, I'm not sure.
I tossed Eve into there simply because you mentioned repetitive grinding. That's all
I wouldn't suggest Eve change it's model. It does what it does, and does it well. It's a good PVP game. But I think we all agree that Eve has its flaws in PVE. Likewise the others had/have serious flaws in PVE playstyle too.
Isn't that the whole point of your thread? To discuss a sandbox design model which attempts to iron out such flaws that are inherent in the "traditional" model and thus can possibly cater for audiences which the "traditional" model wouldn't normally cater for?
Of course.
I'm here because I don't want to resub to Ryzom lol.
While I want a pve focused sandbox the repetitive nature of that game keeps me into it for about three-four days and then i lose interest.
I would like a game that offers more, meaningful pve while giving players the option to pick and choose what they want to do.
A true world simulation where the community has a common goal against a common enemy.
I hate going back and forth about Eve. We tend to do it because Eve is the most popular sandbox on the market.
But Eve isnt my focus in this thread.
Having a better pve sandbox is. Will we ever get a better swg or ryzom? a better AC? who knows. This poll tells me atleast a small group would try it. But is that enough for a good developer to take a chance on it be it sandbox, hybrid or whatever.
You'll get no argument from me on the majority of your reply Rockgod.
Although one could argue that 210 votes isn't enough to justify time and resources on developing such a model. But nevertheless, I think that the future of MMO's is in the hybrid model. More freedom, less linearity, but still with purpose and direction.
I just can't make up my mind which would be more popular and achieve the greatest potential: a themepark MMO with sandbox elements, or a sandbox game with themepark elements. From a financial standpoint, one could argue in favour of the themepark with sandbox elements. On the other hand a sandbox with themepark elements has a greater potential to be more flexible.
Maybe I'm just focusing on irrelevant semantics, I'm not sure.
Well we got Fallen earth and vanguard. both can be considered Themeparks with sandbox elements and sandbox with themepark elements and both are kinda dying due to low subs.
mmo gamers are a fical bunch. they cry and bitch about wanting a certain thing even if its right there to grab.
I tried vanguard not to long ago and played the trial as far as it took me .... i like it a lot, however in that time i saw only a handfull of other players. Exactly that stopped me from buying it.
In old swg you also had some themeparks ... and i loved it, together with many other people. I'm still playing the precu SWG daily as it almost never gets boring.
It can work ... and there will be a market for it .... and there will always be people bitching ... i find myself doing it regularly
Well we got Fallen earth and vanguard. both can be considered Themeparks with sandbox elements and sandbox with themepark elements and both are kinda dying due to low subs.
mmo gamers are a fical bunch. they cry and bitch about wanting a certain thing even if its right there to grab.
Vanguard was a step in the right direction, I agree. However, the idea behind Vanguard wasn't flawed, it was the implementation of the design that was flawed. Poor project management and lack of support from its new owner (SOE) didn't help.
The advantage that SWG had over Vanguard was the Star Wars IP. The IP created the setting for the game and helped to pull the customers in. Where Vanguard failed was like where sandbox style games tend to fail: it had no background or main story arc running through it. Therefore, it felt like the player didn't have purpose or direction in the world. We tried telling Sigil before launch about the importance of "lore" and story arcs. But I guess they had too much on their plate to listen.
As for FE, I haven't played it.
Now Bioware on the other hand are in the unique position of being a company that places great emphasis on stories. But, the big question is, just how much does SWTOR incorporate "sandbox" style elements? Many signs are indicating that it won't be many, if any. However, SWTOR is in a good a position as others to implement them after launch if necessary. Whether or not they WILL, is a different matter.
It's a shame that in each case, an MMO seems to excel in places where others fail, but at the same time fail where others excel. No one seems to be able to get the balance just right.
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Er, EVE does replace it with other encouragements to play, from earning the ISK to pay for all of our endeavours, be it a Capitol Ship, a new statiion for your alliance, your own personal POS and modules in WH space (something that regularly drains my wallet these days) to paying for enhancements to your POD. (a full snake set costs a bloody fortune)
But EVE's not all about making ISK, its what you do with your cool toys that you buy thats the real game. I use my ships to make income of course, but I also fight mercs in empire, prosecute just about anyone I can find in WH space, have helped 2 alliances set up bases in 0.0 which exist to this day (even though my guys don't hold them anymore) and were I so inclined I could invest in Industry, Mining, Trading, Market manipulation or even scamming the unaware of their hard earned ISK.
MMO's don't have to be about jumping through endless hoops to "progress" your character and I say EVE's real time leveling system has nothing to do with being lazy (because many EVE players work very hard at succeeding in their endeavours) and more about liberating the gameplay so you can focus on what is truely fun in an MMO, and not endlessing grinding up your character for no good reason.
I would hope that a good PVE sandbox game would not be about running on the treadmill, it has to come up with more interesting mechanics than 'working' towards progression, it should be about living in the virtual world. That's not to say people can't work on things in game, such as crafting rare goods, or exploring dangerous areas, they just shouldn't find themselves killing boars for 2 months trying to advance their character.
Character advancement doesn't have to be passive either, it can come as a natural result of doing activities, just don't make it seem like such a grind in the process which is too often the case with most MMORPG's.
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I definately would play such a game. It's something I've actually wanted for quite some time, and honestly don't know why there aren't any decent options for such.
There's too many games with an emphasis on kicking over other people's sand castles, rather than to build them together.
FFXI fits your description very closely. I don't think it offers any non-combative gameplay besides crafting, and the PvP that is in game is a bit more " sporty " in nature.
I think you took what I said a little out of context. Like I said in that quote, it is just how Eve is to me. Eve doesn't provide me with the necessary tools to enjoy myself. Although I acknowledge that it does for others. The point is that Eve isn't the epitome of sandbox design. There are always ways to improve and at the same time maybe even capture a larger audience.
Personally, I like "working through progression" and therefore feel that if it is removed, then at least there should be gameplay elements to replace it with and thus encourage people to log in. Just providing a virtual world to run around in, but with no real direction, isn't enough for some people. Such is the traditional "sandbox" design.
Therefore, I agree that character progression shouldn't be passive, it should be kept as part of the whole gameplay experience.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Eve is the epitome of sandbox because it offers the player choice of rules sets and gameplay options. It has nothing to do with whether someone likes or dislikes it. CCP perfected the foundation of a sandbox... Choice.
That's one lop sided poll lol.
Thank you to all that contributed.
Hopefully one day we will get a nice "next gen" pve focused sandbox.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I dont find Pve focus and sandbox going well together. Why would you bother with PvE if there is no goal within it? Where the story, the cause that would drive you to go out of the safety of city walls and kill odd creature that no-one sane touches? Why should i bother to do anything in such game, there is already SecondLife for sitting on your butt doing nothing, and trying to look pretty.
Sandboxes work well when the PvP is strong point of those, when people have actual reason to travel in 'packs' aka guilds or groups, be it territory control, resource gathering or anything else that might be valuable in the outside of safe zone. If you minimize the PvP aspect to purely consensual it gets pointless.
You can RP on plenty of other platforms better suited for it than a MMO specially build for grinding/RP without set purpose.
Agreed. Unfortunately that's often been the problem with "traditional" sandbox design. However, it's entirely possible to incorporate story arcs and quest chains in a sandbox. It's just that not many, if any, have done that yet.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
What was our focus in Swg? Ryzom? Both these games have/had a huge pve/social focus with the option to pvp is one wanted.
Why can't a sanbox have optional storylines and quests?
Can't completing a hard pve raid, boss or challenge for rare materials, patterns or items be enough incentive?
What about live events? there are ways to make meaningful pve in a sandbox games without either turning them into a themepark or making the content unbelievably repetitive.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Agreed. SWG and Ryzom offer the option of a pve/social focus but both lacked/are lacking due to repetitive content or lack incentives for one to complete them (in the case of ryzoms missions system).
This is why I put this poll up. we clearly have a pve focused sandbox or two on the market already. the issue is these games are either old, changed or lacking in non-repetitive content.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Its got EVERYTHING to do with whether someone likes or or not. That's the whole point of whether it's seen as the epitome of sandbox design. And if it WAS the epitome, then everyone would be playing it. But they aren't. Eve is FAR from perfect. It's unfortunate that people like you cannot accept the possibility that Eve has its flaws.
Eve's "choice" is an illusion. IF there was an equal choice then there would be equal incentives for the playstyles. But there isn't. So in effect, there is very little choice. Which is what turns people away from it. I'm not saying that Eve should change. I'm just stating a fact.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
He's pointed out the flaws in EvE and hes well aware that not everyone enjoys the game.
What hes saying is if every sandbox developer offered a player true choice as the foundation of their game and then built on that they would have a winner on their hands.
Imagine if AV did that? let the player set their own level of risk. give the player options within all kinds of rulesets. Would it not be the game a majority of the people here are looking for?
It has nothing to do with Eve itself as a game but that ccp gave players the choice, what choice do you have in DF? MO?
Look beyond eves spaceships and gameplay, there's something special about a game that lets someone share a universe as both a no risk carebear and a ffapvp ganker.
Understand?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Add Eve to the list too.
I do agree, which is why I think rather than a "true" sandbox design, the industry should be look more towards a hybrid design model. Sandboxes are often non-linear, but lack the purpose and direction that a lot of players enjoy. Themeparks have that purpose and direction, but are often seen as linear and restrictive. A merge of the two IS possible.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that Eve has certain qualities that are outstanding. But the whole product itself is far from perfect. That's what I took exception to, the insinuation about the whole product. Eve has some choice, yes, but it's hardly balanced in terms of the different playstyles. For instance, as far as PVE goes, Eve is guilty of repetitive grinding just like other "traditional" sandbox designs. Thus the Eve design model is far from perfect.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
You like tossing Eve into a "whats lacking" discussion whenever you get the chance aye?
While eve offers players the option to pve all day its still a pvp focused sandbox witht he option to pve. ccp is well aware of the limited pve in game and intends to keep it that way. I give them credit for even giving us the option.
Swg and Ryzom on the other hand are/we're Pve/social focused games with the option to pvp and boths games pve were lacking. if they weren't one of them would be in its original form and the other wouldnt have closed down three times.
Eve has no short comings in its pvp system like Swg and ryzom have in their pve.
You can't toss them in the same list. its like bitching because darkfall lacks in pve. if darkfall gave the option to pve like eve it could stay as is and would be perfect as a pvp sandbox.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Again your focusing on Eves execution rather than the options it gives a player. im only speaking of other games letting players choose. I know Eve lacks in execution. this is where future mmos could improve.
If you don't give a player the choice your doomed to fail before you even begin.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I tossed Eve into there simply because you mentioned repetitive grinding. That's all
I wouldn't suggest Eve change it's model. It does what it does, and does it well. It's a good PVP game. But I think we all agree that Eve has its flaws in PVE. Likewise the others had/have serious flaws in PVE playstyle too.
Isn't that the whole point of your thread? To discuss a sandbox design model which attempts to iron out such flaws that are inherent in the "traditional" model and thus can possibly cater for audiences which the "traditional" model wouldn't normally cater for?
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Choice is good. But Eve doesn't have a balanced choice because its predominantly designed to be a PVP game. I'm not complaining about it, just stating a fact. I played Eve for a few months, tried to get into it, but found it severely lacking for me personally on a PVE level. Why? Because I felt it lacked direction and purpose in PVE.
Which is precisely what we're talking about here. The difference between sandbox and themepark designs and how one of the problems inherent in "traditional" sandbox designs can be addressed. Is it not?
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Of course.
I'm here because I don't want to resub to Ryzom lol.
While I want a pve focused sandbox the repetitive nature of that game keeps me into it for about three-four days and then i lose interest.
I would like a game that offers more, meaningful pve while giving players the option to pick and choose what they want to do.
A true world simulation where the community has a common goal against a common enemy.
I hate going back and forth about Eve. We tend to do it because Eve is the most popular sandbox on the market.
But Eve isnt my focus in this thread.
Having a better pve sandbox is. Will we ever get a better swg or ryzom? a better AC? who knows. This poll tells me atleast a small group would try it. But is that enough for a good developer to take a chance on it be it sandbox, hybrid or whatever.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You'll get no argument from me on the majority of your reply Rockgod.
Although one could argue that 210 votes isn't enough to justify time and resources on developing such a model. But nevertheless, I think that the future of MMO's is in the hybrid model. More freedom, less linearity, but still with purpose and direction.
I just can't make up my mind which would be more popular and achieve the greatest potential: a themepark MMO with sandbox elements, or a sandbox game with themepark elements. From a financial standpoint, one could argue in favour of the themepark with sandbox elements. On the other hand a sandbox with themepark elements has a greater potential to be more flexible.
Maybe I'm just focusing on irrelevant semantics, I'm not sure.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Have a huge sandbox game with themeparks in it
... themeparks would be called instances ...
Ooh wait ....
Well we got Fallen earth and vanguard. both can be considered Themeparks with sandbox elements and sandbox with themepark elements and both are kinda dying due to low subs.
mmo gamers are a fical bunch. they cry and bitch about wanting a certain thing even if its right there to grab.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I tried vanguard not to long ago and played the trial as far as it took me .... i like it a lot, however in that time i saw only a handfull of other players. Exactly that stopped me from buying it.
In old swg you also had some themeparks ... and i loved it, together with many other people. I'm still playing the precu SWG daily as it almost never gets boring.
It can work ... and there will be a market for it .... and there will always be people bitching ... i find myself doing it regularly
Without much thinking my answer is yes. Shame that the last such MMO was a pre-CU SWG which could have been improved in so many ways.
Vanguard was a step in the right direction, I agree. However, the idea behind Vanguard wasn't flawed, it was the implementation of the design that was flawed. Poor project management and lack of support from its new owner (SOE) didn't help.
The advantage that SWG had over Vanguard was the Star Wars IP. The IP created the setting for the game and helped to pull the customers in. Where Vanguard failed was like where sandbox style games tend to fail: it had no background or main story arc running through it. Therefore, it felt like the player didn't have purpose or direction in the world. We tried telling Sigil before launch about the importance of "lore" and story arcs. But I guess they had too much on their plate to listen.
As for FE, I haven't played it.
Now Bioware on the other hand are in the unique position of being a company that places great emphasis on stories. But, the big question is, just how much does SWTOR incorporate "sandbox" style elements? Many signs are indicating that it won't be many, if any. However, SWTOR is in a good a position as others to implement them after launch if necessary. Whether or not they WILL, is a different matter.
It's a shame that in each case, an MMO seems to excel in places where others fail, but at the same time fail where others excel. No one seems to be able to get the balance just right.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's