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Lame Poll: So many MMOs and their all the same. Wouldn't it be easier to "beat" WOW just by not comp
Zhylaw
Member Posts: 115
Way back in the day, there were almost no choices for mmos. It was either EQ or UO and they were both great in their own right. There was Meridian 59 and AC as well, which was fine they were all very different feeling games and there were plenty of subs to go around.
But now there are literally dozensa of MMORPGs. Not even counting pseudo MMOS like Guild Wars or Global Agenda/APB. Studios across the world churn them out, some studios like cryptic are making assembly line games like theres no tomorrow. And games just aren't dying, with even minimal subs most MMOS just limp along forever. When the plug is pulled on a game theres alot more going on behind the scenes then just poor sub numbers. Tabula Rasa we will miss you, but your the exception. Ultima Online, DAOC, Asherons Call, AO, their all still around and kicking...or at least twitching. So the market is getting more and more and more cluttered.
Then WOW comes along and pretty much becomes the elephant in the room, tricking shareholders into thinking that millions of subs are the norm, are expected, and are required for a game to be profitable. Not to mention being pretty much unbeatable in the cartoony fantasy straightforward genre of mmos.
What I find mind boggling is how studio after studio keep going head to head with WOW, either unintentionally or not by building games far to similar in basic design and scope and then of course failing. And then they act all surprised when they dont have two millions subscribers?
Even if WOW didn't exist there are so freaking many generic cookie cutter MMOS. Why are these companies hamstringing themselves. IS it so hard to figure out that if they build something different from the ground up, they can get garunteed niche status even if the game sucks, just for being unique? And if they could I dunno...make a game thats actually good they could have the next EVE? Do you really think EVE would be as succesful as it is today if the space game market was as cluttered as the fantasy genre?
I've heard the arguements before, about making games are expensive and nobody wants to take a risk by being different, and the few games that tried failed so we dont want to. Well I'm no market analyst but ummm isnt creating a slight variation on the same product already for sale also kind of risky, as in setting yourself up for direct competition and then failure if your not straight up superior? And those that dared to be different didn't fail bvecause nobody wants something new, they failed cause their games sucked.
Seriously, can we please get some more sci/fi MMOS? With no magic whether its from "nanites" or 'mind powers"? A sandbox with true shooter mechanics? Hell just rip off EVE but make it with people instead of ships.
Or how about a game were you get your own freaking town, forget a house to build up and manage. Instead of a talent tree you have to make choices on what structures to build in your town for different chaacter bonuses. And you could recruit troops form different structures in your town to join you in quesitng. Flavor NPC's aplenty and quest givers would be wandering npcs that stumble into your town. Could have regular pvp but with your forces against an enemies dynasty warriors style. Plus town sieges for resources perhaps?
How about a western AAA version of Atlantica Online, without the horrid cash shop and asian grinding? Make it M rated with AOC like fatalities which would work perfectly in a turn based environment. Hows that for being a unique snowflake, there is NO western adult turn based MMOS. Could make it in a post apocalyptic zombie setting for bonus points.
How about a sci/fi shooter end of the world game where everyone wheres power suits. Not mech warriors, more like Iron Man armor. Instead of swords and plate mail you get upgrade pieces for your armor. Lots of customization, heavy crafting. research stuff. Flight with rocket packs. And in the cities you wear your social clothing. Remnants of humanity fighting monster aliens or some such. Fallen Earth crossed with Tabula Rasa with everyone in powered armor sorta vibe.
Seriously I could go all day with different ideas for games that would you know...be different? Isn't it time yet? How many freaking games based on the same premise can we take? Doing it right isnt enough...do it DIFFERENT!!!! Tera, Rift, they are all cut from the same mold as the games we have now. Just with a slightly different flavor or a new idea or two but the FOUNDATIONS are the same as everything else.
Comments
Didn't read, but I'll answer your title question, yes. And developers don't understand this for some reason. All the big AAA MMOs that have copied WoW have failed not because they aren't good, but because the WoW crowd doesn't really shop around for MMORPGs. Most people that play WoW don't even know the genre exists. They just play WoW. Making another WoW isn't going to distract them.
So, instead of shooting for millions and getting 50k shoot for the 500k-1 million older MMORPG gamers that are just dying for anything that isn't WoW.
Companies could make niche market games, like Fallen Earth and some others. But the issue is they want to make money. And to make money it is easier to take what works and change it a little. The Investors expect a return on their millions. If they would allow some companies to try and make a fresh style of game it would be great, but there are just to many risks.
Thats a good point and one I did briefly address in my post. At first blush this may seem a good idea, and perhaps it once was. But it is now a BIGGER risk to try to compete with WOW and the glutt of clones it has then trying to do something different. Cloning Wow isnt a recipe for success, it is just garuenting your game will epic fail. Nothing can compete with WOW on its own turf, nothing.
Actually, a lot of games failed to compete with WoW because they only superficially tried to recreate some of WoWs elements. They failed at the polish and the foundation beneath the "gimmicks" that they try to introduce on top of a shaky "cheap knockoff" of the WoW / EQ design model.
Before you try to compete with the best, you have to make a quality product that CAN compete.
This is why they fail time and time again. They fail to realise the lessons that Blizzard were trying to teach the industry: Polish and refinement. Instead, the others try to cut corners and pay lip service to gamplay elements and in the end they end up creating a product that is neither different from WoW, nor is it a refined and polished competitor for WoW.
Get the foundation right and all the expected gameplay elements in place before "bolting on" gimmicks and features. Then they MAY stand a chance at competing against the market leaders design model, or even diverting away it.
Like the saying goes: You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Or to use a slightly more crude saying: You cannot polish a turd.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
To respond to the title of your thread, yes stop trying to compete with WOW..it makes a lot of sense, just make a MMORPG that people will want to play not what the "suits" want you to play.
This.
A lot of them tried to copy elements of WoW that were only surface things, but they failed to grasp that it was the accessibility of WoW' gameplay, the polish and the smooth ride that it was from the start to end level, that made it an interesting choice for many players.
I also think it isn't as much the devs but their bosses, the investors and the top management of a game company that keeps pushing the devs and designers into certain choices. Hopefully the many failures have shown that releasing a game unpolished or lacking in essential areas is a recipe for disaster.
Actually, I think that a number of the new upcoming MMO's will be different and/or polished, so I have higher hopes for them than I've had for the ones of the last few years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As Tarka said, companies are trying to emulate wow and falling short. I understand why they do it, because after all wow is pretty much a clone of EQ. So it seems reasonable that other companies could do the same thing.
The problem is two fold. Again, as Tarka pointed out, copying the gameplay of wow isn't the important feature that needs emulating. The smooth controls, polish and attention to detail are what make the gameplay superior.
The second was that wow addressed a need. It offered something new, even though it was built on the same design concepts as previous mmos. It offered a very different gameplay experience and that is exactly what is needed again.
While I don't really think other companies need to reinvent the wheel so to speak, they do however need to give a better experience when using their wheel.
If you did not compete against WoW ...how can you say you 'beat' wow?
If you are gauging 'winning' against WoW by having more subscriptions than WoW you are competing against it ...because you are focused on subscription dollars. MOst MMO players do not hold numerous subs simultaneously. MOst bounce from one (and cancel the sub) to another (and start paying it's sub)
All entertainment is in a competition for (ever diminishing) entertainment dollar
Heck, I would say that WoW is in competition with TV, MOvies, Paint Ball and ice skating when it all comes down to it.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Agreed. companies don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to refine it and evolve it further.
It staggers the mind when you think about all the lost opportunities that have gone by over the last 5 years. Where MMO's launched with the intention to compete (whether directly or not) with WoW. But instead, such products ended up offering a much inferior gameplay experience to WoW, and thus never achieved the greatness and potential that those who followed the product during beta thought it had. Leaving the product looking as the sickly, under nourished, red-headed stepchild of the MMO family (no offense intended to red heads there).
Unfortunately after launch, to counter this issue players attempt to prod the developers into trying to refine and develop the product further. But, the usual answers are along the lines of "we may do something like that in the future, but no plans right now". Which, whilst it may be a sensible answer, it doesn't exactly give people hope that it will EVER come to pass. Which probably contributes to the reasons why people lose faith and become disillusioned to a partcular MMO that they have been following.
Now, I'm not a HUGE fan of them, but at least Bioware are perhaps recognising part of this issue and thus focusing on one of the many areas that other MMO's fall short on: the story and dialogue. Can they make a refined product that MAY be viewed as a TRUE competitor to WoW? Yes. Will they succeed in developing a refined product? Perhaps. Time will tell. Even the biggest names can fail. Just ask Richard Garriott and Brad McQuaid.
And so, rather than fixating on "innovation", MMO companies should actually be focusing on "evolution". Because evolution is where a basic design is created and then refined whilst becoming more complex to suit the environment in which it will exist. And more complexity can lead to more choice. And more choice means an increased probability in a happier playerbase.
Understand your customers requirements. If you cannot implement ALL of the basic requirements then your design is wrong and doomed to failure.
Implement ALL of the expected BASIC gameplay elements. Not just some of them. Don't throw out the inclusion of basic elements for the sake of cost / time cutting.
Refine the basic elements to make them interesting. Giving them each meaning and purpose to exist alongside each other.
Add your own unique "gimmicks" and "features".
Jumping to number 4, like recent games have done, is a recipe for disaster.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Why would someone that has invested 5 years into WoW, go play a new game that's just like WoW?
It's been shown that they won't. On top of that, there are a lot of players that dislike WoW, so you won't get them either.
Bottom line is, companies need to make their own game and be happy with 300k subs.
Name an MMO that is EXACTLY like WoW. You can't. Each at least attempt to be unique in their own way. Their quality might not be incredibly good, but they are distinguishable.
Why would someone that has invested 5 years into WoW go play a new game? Boredom. Everyone gets bored sometime. Just because WoW has 11 millions subs, doesn't mean that the market is saturated. And it certainly ISN'T saturated with well polished and refined products like WoW.
People keep talking about "innovation" like its some kind of magic wand that will instantly free the so-called mindless sheep who play games like WoW. That's complete rubbish. One of the reasons why WoW remains at the top spot is that the competition is seen as mediocre and are of lower quality.
A new MMO doesn't HAVE to be radically different to be appealing to both WoW players and non-WoW players. However, the properties that it DOES need are:
It has to include ALL of the basic elements found in a lot of MMO's. Plus it must cater for all playstyles and not foresake any.
Even though it may not be "innovative", it still has has to be seen as entertaining and fun (just look at the success of WoW even though I wasn't very "innovative").
It has to be refined and polished. Maybe thrown in a little complexity as well.
Be at least a little different in context to what they played before.
Unfortunately, whilst many MMOs attempt number 4, they fail to implement the other 3 particularly well. Thus what is left is a mediocre game that just cannot compete with WoW, and not different enough in design to be seen as NOT being a competitor to WoW.
Blizzard showed how MMO's can appeal to a sizable audience. I believe that it can be done again, not necessarily hitting 12 million, but sizeable nonetheless. The product wouldn't necessarily have to be too radical either. But, it nevertheless needs to be polished, refined and include ALL the very basic elements that people expect in an MMO. Maybe even with a little complexity thrown in to give it the sort of complexity found in single player RPG's.
In short, MMO developers need to go back to the roots and understand the basic elements and playstyles and cater for them. Only then can they forge a foundation on which to build.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I didn't leave WOW because of boredom, I left because I didn't like the direction they were taking the game or the changes they were making.
Blizzard didn't innovate, they polished there is a difference. WOW is just a super awesome version of Everquest. There was no revolutionary new concepts, ideas or design decisions compared to those that came before. A game doesn't have to innovate to be fun. But your missing the point, new mmos NOW have to innovate because WOW totally pwns the standard formula MMO and its ALOT easier and smarter to mix it up instead of trying to beat WOW at its own game. And besides after a decade of the same old thing, doing something different would be nice.
Despite being too long and not having a poll choice that really appealed to me, I think your post was pretty well-written. Honestly, we're stuck in a paradox now. I think we're in holding pattern until it either becomes affordable to do high quality niche market games or until the slow trickles of innovation present in each of the new clones become the norm rather than the exception.
The MMO industry is really young and I always compare it to the film industry with the studio system. The film industry has grown to the point where a good indie film can be made for fractions of a massive blockbuster without sacrificing any quality. I believe we'll hit a technological wall at some point that will help the same to happen in the gaming industry. Either that or someone will build a really really robust multi-purpose MMO engine that will enable different types of games to be built on budget.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
So I'm posting wihtout reading the whole OP or any of the other replies. Feel free to flame.
What I want is.... I dunno. I think it doesn't exist yet. I don't care skill based vs button mashing, I don't care sandbox vs. themepark, I don't care full pvp ffa vs unicorn-fart carebear.
The entire paradigm we're working with right now is just... old. It's dead to me. Eve is different enough to catch my attention, but its too much like a real job to be fun (for me -- I still have mad love for the players & CCP). Fallen Earth was okay but I ran out of things to do during the beta, and the idea of everyone has to craft everything kinda turned me off.
Not to call them all "wow clones" (because even Wow was just the culmination of the paradigm, not innovative per se), but EQ2, Wow, WAR, aoc, STO, CO etc. Go here, get a quest. Talk to that guy, do this, "OMG you havent got your epic pinkie ring of +20 stamina yet? Lets get a group together and run you through that right now!"
I want a place to call home for a couple of years, where I level (or some kind of progressioni) -- but I don't care what level I am at any given moment because DOING IT is why I'm doing it. Like I said, Eve is like that a lot, but...
If not a place to call home, then a persistent identity across a range of different experiences. And some way by which my total experience/char progression can translate from a fantasy "world" this week and a sci-fi or espionage world tomorrow. Let me have a central identity whose total "build points" accumulate over time, but I can spawn an avatar in whatever section/game/world my buddies are playing today. "Oh, you need a healer? Be right there..." And since I have 435 build points, and Sword World takes 40 BP per level, I can make a lvl 18 healer and have 115 points to spend on skills and gear... Tomorrow in Blaster World I can spawn a lvl 33 sniper (because blaster world uses 10 BP per level) and have 70+ to spend on skills/gear.
Maybe my avatar doesn't "level up" while I'm in Sword World, but next time I log in I'll have 10 more points to spend.
Ok time to read the thread now...
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
The problem is that the developers think they are making these games to wean people off of WoW by being similar.
Look at how the developers of the new Fallout MMO put it... it's very disheartening, and makes me question how competent these people are as businessmen on top of designers. You're not weaning people off of shit, they are more than happy to stay with that game for as long as it takes - until somone does something completely different or better (and the latter is not likely to happen).
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
This is the reason I was sick of WoW after playing it for a day. It was just EverQuest made for morons and wasn't entertaining in the least and offered nothing new.
If you're burned out on WoW.
.
Playing another MMO will not allieviate your burnout. Even if that MMO is pretty different, like Eve.
.
You still button smash. You have an inventory. You harvest nodes. You travel. You do quests. You have armor or a ship you progress. You have character stats you progress, etc. The similarities between WoW and Eve are endless.
.
To relieve your burnout you abstain from MMOs all together.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
ya but Eve surely isn't beating wow too.
Maybe all those studios emulating wow is only looking for Eve subscription number.
Maybe they are trying to be a failed wow copycat which make as much money as Eve.
I would never play WoW (or WoW clone). Graphic quality in video games is very important for me. I do not like cartoon graphic. Unfortunately, there are practically no “classical” fantasy MMORPGs available in NA that can be compared with Aion at the moment. I am not interested in other genres. So, I am waiting (some potentially interesting for me games are on the way e.g. TERA, GW2, Rift, etc.).
Well.. Perpetuum copied EVE pretty good, but you don't get a person, you get a mech, but at least you have direct control over it.
I just tried the FE trial, and went ahead and subbed to it. So far I'm having a ton of fun in it. Non fantasy, different mechanics from most games. It's not perfect, but it seems to me like they just made the game they wanted to make, and are happy with the subs they have while continuing to improve on it.
I used to hold on waiting for the next big thing in MMO's. Not anymore. If the game is fun, playable, and can suck me out of this world into its, then I'm happy. Of course, the really sad part is lately nobody (except FE) has hit those three simple requirements.
I'd rather play a game that starts slow and builds momentum over it's lifetime, than something that comes out hugely hyped, with bloated box sales, only to implode 6 months down the line.
Honestly, aside from somebody releasing the holy grail of MMO's, that's where I draw the line on expectations, save from companies who pump millions into the game and advertise it as the best thing since sliced bread.. they better deliver, and if they don't, they deserve to fail.
I think more companies are starting to "get it".. Smaller ones at least. The big guys seem to stick with the Blizzard model, since that's what their shareholders expect. We'll see slow changes out of the big guys.. slow but polished. With indie devs and the open source market (woot Ryzom core) spitting out the more radical changes in design and implementations.. At least for a while.. MMO's are in an odd state right now.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Honestly I never got into EQ2 nor did I enjoy any of the EQ2 clones such as WoW. I played UO for over a decade and freedom in game with a lot of interaction with the environment seems to be what I crave as well as PvP. I did do a 5 year stint in FFXI, but that seems to have been a 1 shot deal. I don't know if I liked it because of the IP, the fact I met my rl wife in game (We've been happily married for many years now ), or what but w/e it was that magic is lost now and I can't bring myself to come back or play something similar.
APB is the first in awhile that really looks like it will hold me for a good while. Everything else seems to simply not focus on the mechanics or game play and decide to give players a ton of generic repetitive stuff to do to keep them occupied while promising enjoyment after months of work.
This enjoyment is generally alliance based dungeon raiding or just dungeon raiding period (Which was a part of UO from the start, you could do this on day 1 of your toons life) or FFA PvP, Clan/guild based PvP, Sieging based PvP, or Epic boss mob style fights (All of which UO had available and you could do on day 1 of your toons life with the exception of sieging which I actually enjoyed a couple of years of in Shadowbane).
Basically ..... I don't like the fact that devs put the fun stuff at the end of the game and barely put any effort into it. I mean this glorified endgame which was just part of the game back when I played UO is usually not even in at launch. It's always put on the back burner (almost always) and rarely works correctly when it is in for another couple of months (AoC's sieging anyone?).
It seems the devs spend all there time focusing on repetitive boring monotonous tasks and some long drawn out progression system designed to keep you playing and paying instead of focusing on just delivering the fun. Sure I like progression, but DFO is a prime example of what progression has become. The be all end all of everything. You have to grind for months on end to get to a competitive level. Why?
I don't know... it just seems like they work on the fun last and focus on simply trying to find ways to keep you in game with little to no consideration to fun.
If I hadn't spent over a decade in UO and the controls and graphics weren't so dated I'd be playing it right now because the game was just fun.
OP called APB a pseudo MMO, but its the first to deliver the fun I crave in a persistent world that I can actually interact with in a long time. It looks as if the game was designed first and foremost with fun in mind.
I'm looking forward to TSW (The Secret World), GW2 as well as they are different (or at least look that way to me) from what we currently have available. I'm tired of the boring repetition, slow combat, errand boy style quests, brain dead AI, lifeless worlds that you can't interact with, promise of fun that rarely comes, asininely long grinds that lead no where accept to more grind just of a different kind, and so on.
Most MMO's suck imho, APB is a very nice change and I hope more and more MMO's come out that focus on fun first because in the end the fun will keep more players there than that carrot on a stick especially now that more and more players are realizing that by the time they finally reach that carrot it's gone rotten and tastes bitter.
I stopped playing WoW out of simple pure boredom and I've known several individuals who like wise practically stopped playing. Other than that I know several individuals that still play WoW because there isn't anything better out on the market. It may not be a large percentage, but if a polished capable game was released even if it wasn't overly innovative these two groups of WoW players would likely try the game, which if polished enough majority of them may actually remain.
The only reason that WoW doesn't have any serious competition is that majority of the MMOs that have come out that are directly in competition with it have massive bug issues, server problems, simply aren't polished, or were released unfinished. A completed and polished product would be a blow to WoW's current subscriber base. It wouldn't be a death blow or the WoW killer many want, but its possible for other companies to be successful even though they are in competition against WoW.
WoW defines the MMORPG genre as it stands. If you don't want to compete with WoW, then you have to look outside of MMORPGs, to the much less proven (and assuming you want to remain in MMO territory) MMOFPS and MMORTS (or even MMOTBS) areas. To date, the best the MMOFPS and MMORTS genres have to offer are minor successes like PlanetSide or Shattered Galaxy - profitable for a while, catered to a niche and often not known outside of a core group of players.
The other issue with 'not competing' means trying to build something completely different. Players raised on WoW are going to find 'completely different' challenging and potentially offputting, especially if it is completely different for no good reason. Although some may dismiss that and go, 'WoWn00bs need to lern2play', WoW players will make up the bulk of your potential customer base. If they don't, you have to go and create a market of players untainted by WoW, which wouldn't be a particularly good business plan.
Answered your own question: "I don't consider different MMOs to be MMOs. Why are all MMOs the same?"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver