I always thought certain classes couldn't need on certain items. At 80 that's a sure thing, as a hunter you can't roll need on anything that isn't your armor class and you can't roll need on items that your class would have no need for. On my deathknight I can't roll need on any item that isn't plate, can't roll need on any staff or anything I can't use weapon wise. I don't think it happens as much at 80 because if the restrictions aren't there pre 80, they are definately there at 80.
Taken directly from the patch 3.3 notes and applicable to all dungeons run by the LFG tool.
"The Need Before Greed loot system will be the unalterable default looting system for pick-up groups in the Dungeon System and has been updated."
"Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item."
The class must be able to equip the item (a dagger can not be needed by a paladin so it applies to weapon/shields too).
Pure melee will be unable to roll need on spell power items.
Classes are limited to their dominant armor type: so a hunter can't possibly roll need for cloth.
The examples the OP talks about could never have happened with a need roll. Of course everyone is entitled to a "greed" roll if no one can use it.
1) As pointed out before, the system does NOT allow you to need anything.
2) At L80, Heroic loot is pretty much meh (best ones is L232 in the new ICC dungeons) and aside from those, few people are interested. In fact, most people just "dischant". Plus, you can run H everyday and eventually you will get what you want. Most run H for the badges.
3) The real loot action is in PUG raids (and of coures guild raids but i assume there is no ninjaing in guild raids) and as long as you trust the master looter, there is no ninja-ing.
So I stopped playing WoW some years ago when raiding started to suck up too much of my time. Since I'm currently not subbed to any MMORPG (thanks to FE implementing their cash shop) I thought "why not try WoW again and see what has changed".
So I download the WoW trial, make some chars, play some. And.... the question is: does the ninja looting each dungeon happens only on lower levels or also on higher ones?
I'm in shadowfang keep, healing with my shaman. The group has two warriors and two hunters. Arugals robes drop. I'm happy "nice loot for healing" (since I was the only caster obviously). But of course, a hunter rolls need and leaves the group.
Or I finally manage with a group to finish wailing caverns (hard enough with random groups). A ring with 6 spirit, 3 int and 3 stamina drops. Warrior tank rolls need and leaves.
Or I am with some other char in the deadmines. First boss drops that 11 stamina 2handed hammer. A hunter rolls need. When I ask him why he needs a weapon that doesn't help him the slightest with his ranged damage, he leaves the group. A new hunter joins. He rolls need on a blue ring with intelligence and hit rating, and leaves the group. A new hunter joins. He rolls need on that caster staff with 8 int, 5 sta and 5 spirit. When asked "why do you roll need on a caster weapon?" he says "I trained staves, I can use it!!!".
Or I'm in SFK with my warrior as DPS (signed in as tank or dps). The healer is afk, tank pulls anyway. Tank dies. Tank leaves the group. Healer leaves the group. There are two dps left, one of which a paladin. I say "ok, you heal me paladin and I tank, and we continue until we find more". He says "I can't heal more than 60 health". I sigh deeply, and ask him to at least res the other dps dude lying dead on the floor. Pala says "I can't res".
With quests it's worse. Like, ragefirechasm. Someone asks "anyone got quests?". I say "sure, I gladly share them if we do them too". I share them, people accept. People refuse to do the quests though.
I don't get it. This is so much nonsense. I mean what's the right attitude to deal with this? Is the only way to manage a dungeon with a random group without getting annoyed is simply to be like them: roll need on everything blue and leave if asked why, and ignore any quests but asking for them anyway? Just play deaf, ignore all reason and run along with the crowd?
Or is it only on low levels this way, and the higher the level is the more people know what they are doing?
Sometimes people do that stupid stuff, that I'm not sure if they do it on purpose. Maybe I missed something, and collecting blue drops you can't use is "cool" nowadays or there is an achievement for it?
On the one hand I think "well, still better than some other MMORPGs". On the other hand I think that the way PUGs behave with the dungeon finder is unbearable.
Thanks for any insight on what's it on higher levels.
Well first of all you can't roll need on every single item if your class cannot use the item (this means that Pally's can only roll need on plate items (mail below lvl 40), shaman/hunters can only roll need on Mail/leather and casters only cloth. You also can't roll need on an item if your class gets no benefit (warrior rolling on a spellpower item for example).
Beyond all of that though, usually no one gives a damn in lower levels anyway because that gear is getting replaced fairly quickly. It's a big deal if it happens on higher levels though. The need before greed rules were put into place to prevent the sort of thing you're talking about.
Your SFK story makes sense, if the Pally didn't do the quest to get the rez spell, he wouldn't get it until lvl 24. Low lvl pallys don't heal for a whole lot. You do understand these is very low levels your complaining about, right? Also, when you say 'people refuse to do that quests', what are you referring do? Most instance quests are drops or kills you normally would do anyway in the course of running an instance.
You also need to understand that a lot of people who play WoW have never played this type of game before. Being that it was a low level instance, there's a chance the person you were playing with was really 'new' and didn't understand how the game works. So for example, the hunter may think he could use that staff since he trained it because he still doesn't know how a Hunter works. I'm not saying this doesn't happen with later levels (at that point it's just stupidity), but it's likely to happen more in the levels you are describing.
Hmm, when I played back in vanilla WOW days there was occasional ninja looting, but since we all were on the same server/faction it quickly became known if someone did it on a regular basis.
I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose yet another downside to the Dungeon finder would be an increased incentive to ninja loot since there's little likelihood of any consequences for bad behavior.
Yet another good reason to not like that feature outside of its obvious negative impacts on the social aspect of MMORPG's.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm, when I played back in vanilla WOW days there was occasional ninja looting, but since we all were on the same server/faction it quickly became known if someone did it on a regular basis.
I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose yet another downside to the Dungeon finder would be an increased incentive to ninja loot since there's little likelihood of any consequences for bad behavior.
Yet another good reason to not like that feature outside of its obvious negative impacts on the social aspect of MMORPG's.
It happened just as much before dungeon finder in which case usually someone would yell in trade chat (such and such is a ninja looter, do not group with him) and 95% of everyone who read that promptly ignored it because most people ignore stuff in trade chat. At least with the rolling rules now you can't just need roll on every single item. Everyone has different experiences, but I've probably ran over a hundred random instances while leveling and can honestly say ninja looting has been few and far between (less than 10 occurances). Alot of times its a simple mistake where someone rolled need (if they could) by accident, which is why they implemented trading those items while in the instance.
Hmm, when I played back in vanilla WOW days there was occasional ninja looting, but since we all were on the same server/faction it quickly became known if someone did it on a regular basis.
I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose yet another downside to the Dungeon finder would be an increased incentive to ninja loot since there's little likelihood of any consequences for bad behavior.
Yet another good reason to not like that feature outside of its obvious negative impacts on the social aspect of MMORPG's.
I'm sorry, but I think using "ninja loot" in an "everyone rolls" system is a bit of an exaggeration.
In classic EQ, you might wait 72 hours for something to spawn, kill it, and then someone utterly uninvolved might grab the excruciatingly rare drop. THAT is Ninja Looting.
"He rolled 'need' when the computer decided he could roll 'need' but he didn't REEEAAAAALLLLY need it as much as I doooooo" isn't ninja looting. It might be (OK, it IS!) rude or anti-social, but the days when someone could just loot a corpse -- any corpse -- whether or not he participated in the fight or was part of the group are lost back with original EQ.
Yet, I'm pretty sure someone cursed and spat and grumbled that not allowing free looting of corpses was "harmful to the community" as well.
Honestly, what pisses me off most in PUGS is not the "Roll need" types, but ones who say "Got my drop, kthxbai" and leave.
(Someday, WoW will probably implement a "dibs" system, where the best loot in an instance is listed, and each player can pick one item to "call dibs" on, guaranteeing he will get that item if it drops, and all players must agree to the "calls" before the instance loads. Actually, y'know, that's not an entirely bad idea... especially, if, say, you could give up calling "dibs" for a +10 modifier on all Greed rolls, for example.)
They are low level items. Nothing to get worked up about. You can take the higher ground and just roll on items you need, or you can sink to their level and just roll need on everything.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Comments
I always thought certain classes couldn't need on certain items. At 80 that's a sure thing, as a hunter you can't roll need on anything that isn't your armor class and you can't roll need on items that your class would have no need for. On my deathknight I can't roll need on any item that isn't plate, can't roll need on any staff or anything I can't use weapon wise. I don't think it happens as much at 80 because if the restrictions aren't there pre 80, they are definately there at 80.
Taken directly from the patch 3.3 notes and applicable to all dungeons run by the LFG tool.
"The Need Before Greed loot system will be the unalterable default looting system for pick-up groups in the Dungeon System and has been updated."
"Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no member be able to use the item."
The class must be able to equip the item (a dagger can not be needed by a paladin so it applies to weapon/shields too).
Pure melee will be unable to roll need on spell power items.
Classes are limited to their dominant armor type: so a hunter can't possibly roll need for cloth.
The examples the OP talks about could never have happened with a need roll. Of course everyone is entitled to a "greed" roll if no one can use it.
Clear cut answer.
A few points:
1) As pointed out before, the system does NOT allow you to need anything.
2) At L80, Heroic loot is pretty much meh (best ones is L232 in the new ICC dungeons) and aside from those, few people are interested. In fact, most people just "dischant". Plus, you can run H everyday and eventually you will get what you want. Most run H for the badges.
3) The real loot action is in PUG raids (and of coures guild raids but i assume there is no ninjaing in guild raids) and as long as you trust the master looter, there is no ninja-ing.
Well first of all you can't roll need on every single item if your class cannot use the item (this means that Pally's can only roll need on plate items (mail below lvl 40), shaman/hunters can only roll need on Mail/leather and casters only cloth. You also can't roll need on an item if your class gets no benefit (warrior rolling on a spellpower item for example).
Beyond all of that though, usually no one gives a damn in lower levels anyway because that gear is getting replaced fairly quickly. It's a big deal if it happens on higher levels though. The need before greed rules were put into place to prevent the sort of thing you're talking about.
Your SFK story makes sense, if the Pally didn't do the quest to get the rez spell, he wouldn't get it until lvl 24. Low lvl pallys don't heal for a whole lot. You do understand these is very low levels your complaining about, right? Also, when you say 'people refuse to do that quests', what are you referring do? Most instance quests are drops or kills you normally would do anyway in the course of running an instance.
You also need to understand that a lot of people who play WoW have never played this type of game before. Being that it was a low level instance, there's a chance the person you were playing with was really 'new' and didn't understand how the game works. So for example, the hunter may think he could use that staff since he trained it because he still doesn't know how a Hunter works. I'm not saying this doesn't happen with later levels (at that point it's just stupidity), but it's likely to happen more in the levels you are describing.
Hmm, when I played back in vanilla WOW days there was occasional ninja looting, but since we all were on the same server/faction it quickly became known if someone did it on a regular basis.
I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose yet another downside to the Dungeon finder would be an increased incentive to ninja loot since there's little likelihood of any consequences for bad behavior.
Yet another good reason to not like that feature outside of its obvious negative impacts on the social aspect of MMORPG's.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It happened just as much before dungeon finder in which case usually someone would yell in trade chat (such and such is a ninja looter, do not group with him) and 95% of everyone who read that promptly ignored it because most people ignore stuff in trade chat. At least with the rolling rules now you can't just need roll on every single item. Everyone has different experiences, but I've probably ran over a hundred random instances while leveling and can honestly say ninja looting has been few and far between (less than 10 occurances). Alot of times its a simple mistake where someone rolled need (if they could) by accident, which is why they implemented trading those items while in the instance.
I'm sorry, but I think using "ninja loot" in an "everyone rolls" system is a bit of an exaggeration.
In classic EQ, you might wait 72 hours for something to spawn, kill it, and then someone utterly uninvolved might grab the excruciatingly rare drop. THAT is Ninja Looting.
"He rolled 'need' when the computer decided he could roll 'need' but he didn't REEEAAAAALLLLY need it as much as I doooooo" isn't ninja looting. It might be (OK, it IS!) rude or anti-social, but the days when someone could just loot a corpse -- any corpse -- whether or not he participated in the fight or was part of the group are lost back with original EQ.
Yet, I'm pretty sure someone cursed and spat and grumbled that not allowing free looting of corpses was "harmful to the community" as well.
Honestly, what pisses me off most in PUGS is not the "Roll need" types, but ones who say "Got my drop, kthxbai" and leave.
(Someday, WoW will probably implement a "dibs" system, where the best loot in an instance is listed, and each player can pick one item to "call dibs" on, guaranteeing he will get that item if it drops, and all players must agree to the "calls" before the instance loads. Actually, y'know, that's not an entirely bad idea... especially, if, say, you could give up calling "dibs" for a +10 modifier on all Greed rolls, for example.)
They are low level items. Nothing to get worked up about. You can take the higher ground and just roll on items you need, or you can sink to their level and just roll need on everything.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.