I really enjoyed crafting back in the very early days of EQ2. First of all, the actual crafting process was at least moderately interesting. But more importantly, there was this great market for intermediate products that emerged between crafting professions. For example, as Jeweler, I was able to make certain components that were used in recipes for Blacksmiths. I made a pretty good living off this, until they nerfed it into the ground and removed interdependence among crafters.
I'm not sure I entirely understand, but I like crafting complicated and separated into different directions. I like when making a pure crafter means making a better crafter than one can make with a crafter / fighter. I like when making a pure blacksmith will be a superior blacksmith to a blacksmith / miner, yet inferior in lacking versatility. Basically, I like when gameplay is diversified by choices the player has to make. The more, the better.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I like when crafting is a game in itself, like in EQ2 and Vanguard. I hate the 'gather mats and click' systems like WoW's.
I also think crafting should either be integral to an MMO or not there at all. Games that have it 'tacked on' after the fact just end up with a sorry implementation, generally only there so they can put an extra line in their marketing material.
As far as professions and what not, I'm ok with having some 4 to 6 *crafting* professions, independant from gathering. I love crafting and I hate gathering, but I know people that are the contrary. In SWG I just bought all my mats from other players as I found that gathering was becoming an extra job... let those who enjoy it, do it.
I like crafting that is complex. More complex than in most MMOs. I like the system in SWG, Ryzom, FE, and Vanguard to an extent.
Crafted items should always be better than dropped or NPC made. If the game has a combat gear grind, you should be able to have a gear grind for crafters. Nicer furnace, better anvil, better hammer. These should have small but additive benefits to the weapons, armorm, etc they make.
Now, that being said, I don't personally enjoy crafting. I just want more exciting options for those people that do. I want to be able to play my combat roles and have real incentive to buy an individual's crafts. I want crafters to become respected as 'the uber fletcher of eastmarsh'
I would like crafting professions to be their own classes, but unlike most games, I'd like crafters to have important combat roles since that usually is the bigger focus of a game.
I think crafters should be buffers, repairers, and builders of mounts and seige structures. For a game with mounted combat you would need crafter classes to quickly repair or heal mounts. Perhaps combat classes could do so slowly, but too slow for heat of battle.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I like crafting that is complex. More complex than in most MMOs. I like the system in SWG, Ryzom, FE, and Vanguard to an extent.
Crafted items should always be better than dropped or NPC made. If the game has a combat gear grind, you should be able to have a gear grind for crafters. Nicer furnace, better anvil, better hammer. These should have small but additive benefits to the weapons, armorm, etc they make.
Now, that being said, I don't personally enjoy crafting. I just want more exciting options for those people that do. I want to be able to play my combat roles and have real incentive to buy an individual's crafts. I want crafters to become respected as 'the uber fletcher of eastmarsh'
I would like crafting professions to be their own classes, but unlike most games, I'd like crafters to have important combat roles since that usually is the bigger focus of a game.
I think crafters should be buffers, repairers, and builders of mounts and seige structures. For a game with mounted combat you would need crafter classes to quickly repair or heal mounts. Perhaps combat classes could do so slowly, but too slow for heat of battle.
I agree except for the combat part. Problem with them being 'buffers' is that it would just make them the perfect 'mules'. Just add to the group for buffs.
I think each character should have an optional combat class and an optional crafter class (you could be pure combat or pure crafter if you want, or both, none interfering with the other), but crafting has nothing to do with the combat process just as combat has nothing to do with crafting process.
I like crafting that is complex. More complex than in most MMOs. I like the system in SWG, Ryzom, FE, and Vanguard to an extent.
Crafted items should always be better than dropped or NPC made. If the game has a combat gear grind, you should be able to have a gear grind for crafters. Nicer furnace, better anvil, better hammer. These should have small but additive benefits to the weapons, armorm, etc they make.
Now, that being said, I don't personally enjoy crafting. I just want more exciting options for those people that do. I want to be able to play my combat roles and have real incentive to buy an individual's crafts. I want crafters to become respected as 'the uber fletcher of eastmarsh'
I would like crafting professions to be their own classes, but unlike most games, I'd like crafters to have important combat roles since that usually is the bigger focus of a game.
I think crafters should be buffers, repairers, and builders of mounts and seige structures. For a game with mounted combat you would need crafter classes to quickly repair or heal mounts. Perhaps combat classes could do so slowly, but too slow for heat of battle.
I agree except for the combat part. Problem with them being 'buffers' is that it would just make them the perfect 'mules'. Just add to the group for buffs.
I think each character should have an optional combat class and an optional crafter class (you could be pure combat or pure crafter if you want, or both, none interfering with the other), but crafting has nothing to do with the combat process just as combat has nothing to do with crafting process.
Good points. I guess I was thinking as buffers as more large scale open-world PvP where they remain inside castle, trench, base, turrets. Also thinking about entertainers who seem to thrive in SWG and they are a type of 'crafter.'
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I was responding to a post on another forum on crafting, telling him my thoughts on the matter. He was for having a myriad of crafting profession and gathering professions, like mining, gathering, smithing, fletching, cooking, ect; with many levels or tiers in each category. He supported this with it meant a good economy and lots of content. I was inclined to disagree.
My thoughts on the matter is that crafting should be limited to the actual crafting professions with less or smaller levels in them. And gathering would be largely simplified as well by giving more from each resource node. I supported this with the claim that his style of crafting isn't fun and is overly grindy, and that you don't need gathering professions to support crafting professions in order to have a good economy. I also stated that crafting like that is not a lot of content.
We both claimed that the majority of the MMO community was behind us, but I got curiose and wanted to find out what other people thought about it all.
So, do you like blueprint or exploratory crafting? Gathering and Crafting or Crafting alone? Multi-combination materials or straight materials? Many tiered materials or few generic ones? I want to know your thoughts and any examples of crafting systems found in games that you like or dislike. I want to know what the MMO community wants.
*I would poll, but it doesn't give the option for multi answer sooo... no*
I agree and disagree with you.
I agree on the gathering part - I don't think gathering itself should be a profession. At best, some games create "processing" skills that turn gathering into actual jobs. In that situation, a player can collect raw lumber, but it needs to be processed into wooden boards before it can be used. Even though this is fairly realistic it replicates the least interesting part of a craft and really does create virtual jobs nobody wants to do, encouraging a lot of price gouging, botting and farming. I don't think it needs to be done, so I'm inclined to agree with you that it's better to make gathering skills pretty accessible and not require some ridiculous leveling period. It shouldn't be a job. I prefer spending most of my time traveling around and looking for the resources, not making a billion trips back and forth or deforesting an entire continent to make one object - gathering resources as far as the eye can see but always yielding the minimal amount is just frustratingly slow.
But I'm not sure I get what you were saying with crafting itself. I like a lot of crafts, even if they don't replicate professions. I like lots of interacting skills or classes and plenty of things to make for a variety of activities. I even like intermediate or interdependent craft skills, such as a blacksmith making hammers for the carpenter, but it's best if it becomes easier to produce these as the player advances so there is an abundant surplus in later months. I don't mind if it's difficult to get a single iron nail when the game is first released, but I expect barrels of nails to be available for mere pennies within a few months when enough crafters are available.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
My own opinion is that crafting should provide the best gear, but the mats necessary should be obtained through a mixture of standard gathering, and mob drops, with the geography and danger of the former, as well as the difficulty and rarity of the latter set according to the value of the item. Both should involve a least some element of danger and be public, to discourage botting. Open-world harvesting/mining or raiding, for example.
Once the ingredients are obtained, the item should be a assured (given the necessary crafting skill, of course). None of this RNG crap where you might succeed, or might fail and be rewarded with nothing. Put the time sinks into the collecting of the mats, pls. If someone gives me the ingredients for an item, wanting to pay me to actually create the item, he shouldn't have to wonder if my failure to craft the item was honest, or me stealing his hard-collected mats.
Situations where you need to craft 100 of a basic item to progress to a higher level may be realistic, but if the economy can't buy those 100 basic items, it's a crutch and grind, plain and simple. And an especially annoying one, imo.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs: That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
My own opinion is that crafting should provide the best gear, but the mats necessary should be obtained through a mixture of standard gathering, and mob drops, with the geography and danger of the former, as well as the difficulty and rarity of the latter set according to the value of the item. Both should involve a least some element of danger and be public, to discourage botting. Open-world harvesting/mining or raiding, for example.
Once the ingredients are obtained, the item should be a assured (given the necessary crafting skill, of course). None of this RNG crap where you might succeed, or might fail and be rewarded with nothing. Put the time sinks into the collecting of the mats, pls. If someone gives me the ingredients for an item, wanting to pay me to actually create the item, he shouldn't have to wonder if my failure to craft the item was honest, or me stealing his hard-collected mats.
Situations where you need to craft 100 of a basic item to progress to a higher level may be realistic, but if the economy can't buy those 100 basic items, it's a crutch and grind, plain and simple. And an especially annoying one, imo.
Just want to say that I agree, and I like your sig
I think very little amount of people actually enjoy crafting
I have loathed and despised Crafting in every game I have played in the last decade. The amount of time, game currency and effort involved, simply to make junk in order to get skillups is mega-boring. It isn't as if you end up ultimately makiing anything all that useful to either yourself or anyone else. I'd rather games didn't feature player crafting at all, because it's just an exercise in tedium. Guild Wars suits me fine in this regard - I salvage mats as I play and simply pay an NPC to craft something that I want.
I really enjoyed the crafting system in Pre-Moria Lotro. It wasn't nearly as complex as crafting systems found in other games like SWG and Vanguard, but I still found it to be quite rewarding. I tend to prefer games that make crafting a sub profession. I like having crafting to fall back on when i'm not in the mood to quest or grind mobs. During the Pre-Moria Lotro, top end crafted weapons and armor were on par with top of the line looted items. During those days, gear gating wasn't as big of an issue as it is in the game today. This change to the game was one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing.
However, I also do appreciate more complex crafting system like the ones offered in games like Vanguard and SWG, but I don't think those system would work in more casual MMOs like Lotro and WOW. I would definitely like to see more games in development with the types of systems.
My own opinion is that crafting should provide the best gear, but the mats necessary should be obtained through a mixture of standard gathering, and mob drops, with the geography and danger of the former, as well as the difficulty and rarity of the latter set according to the value of the item. Both should involve a least some element of danger and be public, to discourage botting. Open-world harvesting/mining or raiding, for example.
Once the ingredients are obtained, the item should be a assured (given the necessary crafting skill, of course). None of this RNG crap where you might succeed, or might fail and be rewarded with nothing. Put the time sinks into the collecting of the mats, pls. If someone gives me the ingredients for an item, wanting to pay me to actually create the item, he shouldn't have to wonder if my failure to craft the item was honest, or me stealing his hard-collected mats.
Situations where you need to craft 100 of a basic item to progress to a higher level may be realistic, but if the economy can't buy those 100 basic items, it's a crutch and grind, plain and simple. And an especially annoying one, imo.
alot in this reply is how Im thinking. mainly because I dont find crafting fun when you have to do 1 item with no value 1000 times...also a reason some games just add a progress bar and let you put in how many of said item you want, its just not fun to me.
as this guy prefer that the time sink should mainly be when you out harvesting, and prefered to be a mix of gathering and killing, depending on what you want to build.
now the way Id love to see gaining new recipes would be you had to find those as well....be it an NPC that you have to do a favour for or be lucky to find an ancient scroll in a dungeon...whatever, just wish it were less simple than go find your "crafter mentor"...sure a crafter mentor to get you into crafting is just great, but prefer if its not THE crafting game.
have yet to have seen a perfectly fun crafting gameplay, that in end could be enough to make some being pure crafters, simply because they have so little to offer in the usual instance grind for gear drops setup.
dont think you need to have decay on items when its like this, but if wrong could make it so that the durability is quite long and if you needed a rare kill, make it so its not a 1 time use....make it so you dont have to grind but may have to repeat it if you want the item again later, but personally would prefer it just were rare to find what you need, for the great items in game.
either way would love to see a game making crafting fun, so far ryzom´s crafting were the best Ive tried, just the fact you need to figure how drops affect your craft is great.....and no havent played SWG.
I think very little amount of people actually enjoy crafting
I have loathed and despised Crafting in every game I have played in the last decade. The amount of time, game currency and effort involved, simply to make junk in order to get skillups is mega-boring. It isn't as if you end up ultimately makiing anything all that useful to either yourself or anyone else. I'd rather games didn't feature player crafting at all, because it's just an exercise in tedium. Guild Wars suits me fine in this regard - I salvage mats as I play and simply pay an NPC to craft something that I want.
Good thing for you then that there are sooooooo many games where crafting is just a afterthought so plenty of choices for you, I myself play sooooo many games that don't have crafting, yet in MMORPG I feel it's a much needed part for me to actually enjoy a MMORPG, else I just enjoy ALL those other games without crafting.
Not sure why you despise or loath crafting so much as it's very VERY limited in most current MMO's, so you should be a pretty satisfied player in the current form of this genre.
Personally I loved Crafting in Ultima Online, and of course Star Wars galaxies which was an improvement of the UO crafting model.
The distinction these two Craftying systems have with most of other games is that Crafting itself is not part or required for Game progression on an individual basis.
Meaning that if you made a character of a given role and speciality you did not have to be also a crafter in order to be viable.
This can only be possible if the Crafting system itself, does not contain Ultra Rare and Difficult to find or aquire elements obtained by its gathering. In Ultima Online, you could Cut wood everywhere where there was trees, or mine for Ore in every single Hill side or mounten all over the map, sheath Sheep for wool and turn that in to cloth...there was no ressource hunting.
In SWG, it was the same, ressources for gathering were abundant everywhere of all its basic types, metals organics etc...it even touk gathering a step further than UO by introducing unnatended gathering, you placed a harvester and it gathered the ressources for you.
This meant that there was abundant ressources, which in turn meant that the player market was not inflated which in turn meant that someone who was not a crafter can be viable because they can afford to consume the produce of other players.
Secondly, all of the crafter produce in both of these games were normal items everyone used in a daily basis. There was no really super rare gear, and even if there was some exceptionally crafted items the different with the average items was not game breaking for anyone.
So whether the crafting system is made up for 6 harvestable basic ressources or 300 subcategories of ressources, is really not that important in the end.
What is really important, in my opinion, is how crafting is included in the big picture of the game and how it impacts the gameplay of the individual.
Example you cannot make a crafting system contain rare and hard to aquire components in agame that features involuntary loss... it will simply result in grind and encourage RMT and ultimatelly turn people off the game itself.
On the other hand if there is crafting make it fit with the game, it would be insignificant to have in a game if the crafting produce is surpassed by the droped items in the game...like for example Crafting in WoW it is good for getting some gear when leveling but at end game it is either insignificant or simply a hassle.
Crafting in Lineage2 was a huge huge GrindFest. Crafting in EVE, may seem exciting at first but its gathering is boring as hell, and it tends to be too lengthy and complex too when you include research and standings etc etc, plus, it is a game with involuntary loss...
The point is that crafting should be part of the game but not the focus of the game, unless the game itself is about Economics...such as EVE..then again, not everyone's cup of tea either.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well, I am all for a few professions (like smith, alchemists, tailor and such). 6-8 is good, maybe one that trains animals and a herbalist that can collect rare herbs and make salves) .
But I also would like one class that basically is a crafter/merchant who can take all of those and are leveled up in a different way, like getting xp for crafting and earning money instead of killing things. that class should also get a store instead of a house.
As for the crafting in itself I want the player to be able to design their own item with effects and looks, the better crafter the more choices.
And no system that forces you to make a 100 tin daggers or something else useless that no one wants to buy.
And i don't want an auction house, it is better to shop at player stores and market stands. Someone that can point you in the direction of a crafter that has the item in stock is fine however.
First, I totally disagree about there being no AH. Thats one of the main things (and the ganking and griefing thats encouraged) that I really dislike about far too many Asian import games. Having to spend my time in an endless search of a literal sea of player stands, wastes not only my time, but the Dev's server resources as well.
Far better from my perspective, to have one central location to check for what ever it is that I may need at a given time.
As for crafting, one of the most detailed crafting games that I've ever played was Istaria. One might say that its a crafting game, wrapped around the other aspects of the game ^^ But highly detailed doesn't always mean good.
What is the purpose of crafting, at its fundamental? Profit(for the crafter) and gear for other players. But there are very few games that have crafted gear(as a rule) thats better than quest or dungeon rewards. WoW has a few(with prices so high in gold that they make your nose bleed ^^). But those tend to be the rare exceptions. Mostly its a dreary grind of 100 tin swords, followed by 400 bronze swords, followed by 800 iron swords...Until your eyes bleed from the grind.
I'd suggest making a mini game of it. Just like in real crafting, there are indications that can be looked for while doing it.
Start with a color matching mini game as the metal heats up. Then another as you work it. If you match the color properly in three passes (no more than three items), you move on to more complex color matches. The number of correct matchs (how soon the match is seen) determines the quality of the gear. This is actually closer to how real crafting is done. It becomes a learning game, rather than just a endless grind.
Throw in different color matches for different materials, and you have the crafting mini game. It rewards those who can match the patterns(as they continue to learn new ones) and also as they gain more skill, produces higher and higher quality gear.
Perhaps have a final step(always optional) that allows the player to try for the highest possible quality for that type of gear. But if any step is failed, the gear is destroyed. Any way, those are my current thoughts on this.
Originally, there wasn't much crafting. You could fletch or be an alchemist. Or you could do both and make flaming arrows and such. There wasn't any gathering to be had, you just bought the supplies. The appeal was somewhat lmited though, obviously.
Then they added something that I thought was just brilliant. You could break down common loot drops ( Steel Longsword, Teak Crossbow, Ruby) into their core components. Then you could apply those to an item to make it better.
You needed to get 100 pieces of the material and be trained in the skill. There were 3, one for weapons, one for armor and one for adding special abilites (kinda like enchanting). The materials had a quality factor as well, based upon the quality of the original item.
To me, this was probably the best type of crafting system in any game that I have played. There was no designated gathering areas and no gathering skill (the breaking down skill was supplied and advanced as you used it), there was a reason for junk loot and it created a very nice economy.
I dunno, I'm surprised no other game has really taken this approach (that I'm aware of) as I think it would be an ideal format for most players.
Its interesting to hear all the varried ideas on what people think of crafting. Some of these systems I find intruiging with many wtists of their own. What seems to appeal to those that like crafting does not to those that don't. The problem seems to be finding a middle-of-the-road system that both sides like. One thing that is clear is that no one likes the craft 100 bronze daggers in order to grind out to the next level. It also appears that in order for crafting to be relevant, it has to at least be better than the majority of the drops, otherwise it feels tacked on and is unused.
So how is this for a crafting system:
Materials are dropped from monsters and salvaged from equipment.
All materials are generic, stone is stone, iron is iron, parchment is parchment.
The majority of crafted items are better than regular drops, some exceptions with unique skins to please the raiders.
Equipment you craft can be upgraded by mods in the crafting phase that change them visually and mechanically. Visual mods can not be removed but mechanical mods can be and placed eslewhere.
Mods can be crafted seperately and then placed on a weapon or armor.
Potions and other consumables are almost entirely dependant on what you put in them. e.g. 5 herbs+15 glittering dust gives you +30 health and +50 mana while 10 herbs and 3 stone give you +60 health and +5 armor.
Minigames are included while crafting, so no boring crafting bar to worry about. Impacts the quality of the item in that it has more durability.
Some skins are only avaliable through crafting, and tend to populate the upper crafting levels.
And of course, no crafting 100 useless pieces of junk in order to lvl.
Why find a middle of the road that appeals to crafters and non crafters? Non crafters dont like crafting, its been said in this thread, some of them loathe having to craft anything, so why not create a game where the crafting will apeal to crafters and those that dont like crafting wont have to bother with it bar maybe buying equipment? A shallow crafting system doesnt appeal to most crafters, nor does it appeal to non crafters, it just annoys almost everyone or is ignored.
If you can progress in a chosen profession seperately to other professions, why not that? PvPers progress through PvP, PvErs progress through PvEing, Crafters progress htrough crafting, Uberachievers could progress in everything if they so wished. The PvPers would be reliant on crafters for gear and could return special boost enhancements (example) gained through PvP to crafters to improve their pvp gear, Crafters would be reliant on PvErs and PvPers for materials and enhancements, PvErs would get materials and PvE orientated enhancements through their PvEing. That would build up community within the game, reliance on others, and if you dont like that you can go the route of the uberachiever but your progression in any given field would be slower than those that concentrated their efforts in one or two fields.
Its interesting to hear all the varried ideas on what people think of crafting. Some of these systems I find intruiging with many wtists of their own. What seems to appeal to those that like crafting does not to those that don't. The problem seems to be finding a middle-of-the-road system that both sides like. One thing that is clear is that no one likes the craft 100 bronze daggers in order to grind out to the next level. It also appears that in order for crafting to be relevant, it has to at least be better than the majority of the drops, otherwise it feels tacked on and is unused.
So how is this for a crafting system:
Materials are dropped from monsters and salvaged from equipment.
All materials are generic, stone is stone, iron is iron, parchment is parchment.
The majority of crafted items are better than regular drops, some exceptions with unique skins to please the raiders.
Equipment you craft can be upgraded by mods in the crafting phase that change them visually and mechanically. Visual mods can not be removed but mechanical mods can be and placed eslewhere.
Mods can be crafted seperately and then placed on a weapon or armor.
Potions and other consumables are almost entirely dependant on what you put in them. e.g. 5 herbs+15 glittering dust gives you +30 health and +50 mana while 10 herbs and 3 stone give you +60 health and +5 armor.
Minigames are included while crafting, so no boring crafting bar to worry about. Impacts the quality of the item in that it has more durability.
Some skins are only avaliable through crafting, and tend to populate the upper crafting levels.
And of course, no crafting 100 useless pieces of junk in order to lvl.
Personally i love crafting its a nice way to acquire new/better gear if you are bored of grinding mobs or quest and thus adds variation. And not everyone is into the pure hack and slash. But i have often found myself disapointed in the crafting (mainly WoW) as it seems it just ain't worth the efforts and you're better of just questing and also lacks a certain depth (it doesn't need to be super complex like eg Atitd where you need to really spent hours and hours, but than again the game is 99% crafting)
And something i feel is missing is Experimental crafting which basically means: skills you learn by yourself by experimenting . As an example to illustrate what i mean i would take blacksmithing. There would be "general" skills like smelting iron/steel/etc.. and crafting items with those metals but what about being able to create new metals by experimenting , as in real life there are dozens of different steels depending on what other ores you add (more coal? some other metal ores you add?) . But off course there are a limited amount of metals to be discovered and not all wacky combinations give you something and thus you will need to waste quite some ores before finding a new and better metal than the standard ones and each of this special metals will give items made by those special bonuses compared to the standard one.
(you could also add a special: Experemintal *insert crafting profession* skill interface so to speak which has more depth but once you have discovered something you will be able to make those items/metals/etc... through the normal crafting interface)
So while people who cba experimenting could still be able to craft useful standard items the ones who care enough about crafting to spend more time and testing into it would have an extra benefit.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Why find a middle of the road that appeals to crafters and non crafters? Non crafters dont like crafting, its been said in this thread, some of them loathe having to craft anything, so why not create a game where the crafting will apeal to crafters and those that dont like crafting wont have to bother with it bar maybe buying equipment? A shallow crafting system doesnt appeal to most crafters, nor does it appeal to non crafters, it just annoys almost everyone or is ignored.
If you can progress in a chosen profession seperately to other professions, why not that? PvPers progress through PvP, PvErs progress through PvEing, Crafters progress htrough crafting, Uberachievers could progress in everything if they so wished. The PvPers would be reliant on crafters for gear and could return special boost enhancements (example) gained through PvP to crafters to improve their pvp gear, Crafters would be reliant on PvErs and PvPers for materials and enhancements, PvErs would get materials and PvE orientated enhancements through their PvEing. That would build up community within the game, reliance on others, and if you dont like that you can go the route of the uberachiever but your progression in any given field would be slower than those that concentrated their efforts in one or two fields.
dont understand why you want to seperate ppl within the same game, mind dont know what if any current game you got in mind....its one of the problems in my eyes, MMOs trying to cater to everyone and in the end no one is happy....what if the whole game revolved around PvP....what if the devs spended all their energy on PvE, instead of making it one full game - not saying the PvP and PvE cant be in the same game, but would need to make sense in the full context.
now crafting is a standard in all MMOs, and well in EQ2 by now Id wish they would just sell crafted gear on NPCs as they got no purpose at all, and for those who really spended their energy on it to be helpful to their guild and friends, its well....wasted time. somewhat liked it in the original game and kept on to it for their first expansion....crafted gear were useful, even ofc some drops in dungeons and raids would be better, but could use the best crafted and not be a joke....they saw this too late really, so yea crafters got other things they make, than their crafter is....like some make crit bonus potions, that have nothing to do with their class.
either way suppose you could have a full crafter class, but that would have to be one awesome crafting game, if it aint meant to be a full time craft game for all, know there are ppl in EQ2 who hardly ever got adventurer to top lvl but had plenty of crafters....but that is really really rare, since well, EQ2 crafting is quite fun....for the first 20ish lvls the first time....but then get really really repetitive
In this case, people need to be separated as in each MMO; PVE vs PVP, carfting vs. non-crafting. There's not alot of point in trying to catering to non-crafters. Make the crafting system deep and complex; the crafters will love it, non-crafters wont care and the middle in the middle will just fall to one side of the fence or the other. I consider myself a casual crafter, but if the system is deep and rich like SWG then I am on-board and will craft, make it shallow and useless like WOW and I am out, make it complex and intricate like EVE and I am building stuff and having fun, make it grindy like Aion and I am out. Crafting is one of those things that you cant tack on afterwards. Either it is in the game as a major component or dont ahve it at all.
I loved the economy in precu SWG. Also trying to find the best resources and experimenting, etc, was a lot of fun. The fact that items decayed and broke kept the economy healthy and the crafting business booming. Also, there was an interdependency among the crafting professions that sometimes was annoying but did keep you involved in the crafting community.
Usually I like the beginning to middle game aspect of crafting. Once you get past a certain point, all the requirements for recipes becomes a bit tedious and I start focusing more on the adventuring aspect. You should never have to rely on raid drops and stuff, which as a crafter I couldn't get on my own. Ofcourse it does create an interdependence among crafters and adventurers, but I still found it tedious.
Personally i love crafting its a nice way to acquire new/better gear if you are bored of grinding mobs or quest and thus adds variation. And not everyone is into the pure hack and slash. But i have often found myself disapointed in the crafting (mainly WoW) as it seems it just ain't worth the efforts and you're better of just questing and also lacks a certain depth (it doesn't need to be super complex like eg Atitd where you need to really spent hours and hours, but than again the game is 99% crafting)
And something i feel is missing is Experimental crafting which basically means: skills you learn by yourself by experimenting . As an example to illustrate what i mean i would take blacksmithing. There would be "general" skills like smelting iron/steel/etc.. and crafting items with those metals but what about being able to create new metals by experimenting , as in real life there are dozens of different steels depending on what other ores you add (more coal? some other metal ores you add?) . But off course there are a limited amount of metals to be discovered and not all wacky combinations give you something and thus you will need to waste quite some ores before finding a new and better metal than the standard ones and each of this special metals will give items made by those special bonuses compared to the standard one.
(you could also add a special: Experemintal *insert crafting profession* skill interface so to speak which has more depth but once you have discovered something you will be able to make those items/metals/etc... through the normal crafting interface)
So while people who cba experimenting could still be able to craft useful standard items the ones who care enough about crafting to spend more time and testing into it would have an extra benefit.
i more or less never played SWG, but from what i am reading this, this part is pretty similar to this thing i thought up as a part of my dream craft system.
p.s. it is install exe file, so if you dont trust your antivirus (and me ), dont even download it
p.p.s. it is written in VB (Visual Studio 2010) and needs .NET 4, but it does install client itself (download and install that is)
p.p.p.s. it is my more or less first program in visual studio, so it is probable there are some things i should have done differently (especially in building/publishing area), since i more or less used trial and error way
Bear with me since I am going to drift into non-crafting aspects, but I felt I needed to mention other factors that made a great and viable crafting system.
The best Crafting (and Player Economy) system I have ever seen in an MMORPG was with SWG, namely during the Pre-NGE days. A couple things made that possible.
1) The majority of equipment decays from use or on receiving damage. This meant practically everything will breakdown and be rendered useless with more wear and tear. Stats go down after so much of the item's "condition" is lost. It can be repaired, but the maximum condition will be permanently lowered. What this means for Crafters is a better chance for...
2) Repeat business. Crafters were busy making sure the player demands for equipment / foods / drinks / etc. were met since everything breaks after so long. It's not like you make a set of armor and never see that customer again. They might come back to you because of the pricing and quality of your products. Speaking of pricing...
3) Fair pricing on the player market. Lots of customers out there in SWG back then and there were lots of dedicated crafters. Very competetive for the crafters / merchants for business and they actually had to strike that careful balance between turning a profit and putting out quality gear. To a point where they're trying to entice you to return to them for future transactions. Players out there, especially combat and PvP oriented guys would debate about who was the best Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, etc. on the server. You actually began to develop loyalty to certain crafters because of their services and make recommendations to your buddies.
"You said you were looking for a good Laser Carbine? Check out Az over at Naboo. You'll like his stuff. I'll PM you the waypoint."
Sure, there were some merchants that charged insane prices, but you can easily avoid them with just a tiny bit of searching on the Bazaar Terminal's search function and filters.
With some of the truly expensive itmes out there, they were namely rare mats, extremely rare but powerful loot gear (that decays, so they never are permanent), or crafted items made with the absolute best and rarest of materials.
4) Player Interdependence - One of the good things SWG used to do right was interdependency between the players. Combat types needed the crafters / merchants for equipment. The latter in turn needed Combat types to venture out and get certain rare drops (since Non-Combat types had the most basic combat ability, or none at all, depending on how dedicated they were to it) from NPCs. Sometimes they'd hire a player to temporarily act as a bodyguard while they gather resources from a remote harvester located in a dangerous area. You can wheel and deal of course with the merchants if you have the rare mats for an item on hand already.
5) Resource Quality and Availability. SWG was the only MMORPG that I have seen where there was even a variation in quality between the same type of resource. A specific ore can have better qualities if mined from one planet or another. The server changes when, where, and quality of resources. Savvy crafters were always looking for the best mats because those mats in turn greatly affected crafted equipment quality. There were also times when certain resources just weren't available, which in turn drove up the prices of those unavailable resources as well as equipment requiring those items.
6) A deep and highly varied crafting system. It's not just you getting to a certain tier, get X, Y, Z and you'll get Item A with the same stats, all the time. It's not even W, X, Y, Z and you'll get a superior Item A. Item quality depended on a large variety of factors.
* Resource Type & Quality - Resources had stats to themselves. You also were not required to use the same exact type of resource for making an item. You can use alternatives, and they in turn bring different qualities to the finished product.
* Quality of Crafter's Tools
* Crafter's ability to have and properly use "Experimentation Points" - This is a critically important aspect. Experimentation was the ability for the crafter to emphasize / de-emphasize characteristics of the item. Example with a Laser Carbine:
---- Emphasizing higher damage stats but it may drive up HAM (Health/Action/Mind Pool points) costs to use it or possibly lower the weapon's speed.
---- Emphasizing weapon speed at the cost of other characteristics
---- Emphasizing accuracy and damage at cost of other characteristics.
On and on. How the crafter experiments and what resources they use means that there was a great variety for even a single item.
============================================
The system is complicated, especially in light of today's simplistic crafting systems. But SWG at one point struck a wonderful balance between us combat oriented players and the non-combat ones. The game used to have a healthy number of non-combat players that were absolutely and totally dedicated to that aspect of the game. After SWG was changed for the worse and me leaving, I have yet to see any MMORPG that struck that wonderful balance. We had many, many Crafters / Merchants that never played combat roles. They were heavily involved with the deep crafting system, looking for the best resources possible, checking the market and competition, experimenting and making blueprints (for massed production) for a good final product, and of course doing crafting runs on their factories.
The big difference between SWG's old Crafting & Economy was that Crafting wasn't a mere afterthought. It was as deep an aspect of gameplay as Combat. There were numerous little things they needed to know and do right to get a good product out, just as Combat players needed to know about applying their trade and skills for a fight. Combat and Non-Combat players were all equally viable in putting your time and effort into playing, and both styles of play were very deep if you wanted to be good at it.
I miss those days of MMORPG gameplay.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Comments
I really enjoyed crafting back in the very early days of EQ2. First of all, the actual crafting process was at least moderately interesting. But more importantly, there was this great market for intermediate products that emerged between crafting professions. For example, as Jeweler, I was able to make certain components that were used in recipes for Blacksmiths. I made a pretty good living off this, until they nerfed it into the ground and removed interdependence among crafters.
Virtual Reality
I'm not sure I entirely understand, but I like crafting complicated and separated into different directions. I like when making a pure crafter means making a better crafter than one can make with a crafter / fighter. I like when making a pure blacksmith will be a superior blacksmith to a blacksmith / miner, yet inferior in lacking versatility. Basically, I like when gameplay is diversified by choices the player has to make. The more, the better.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I like when crafting is a game in itself, like in EQ2 and Vanguard. I hate the 'gather mats and click' systems like WoW's.
I also think crafting should either be integral to an MMO or not there at all. Games that have it 'tacked on' after the fact just end up with a sorry implementation, generally only there so they can put an extra line in their marketing material.
As far as professions and what not, I'm ok with having some 4 to 6 *crafting* professions, independant from gathering. I love crafting and I hate gathering, but I know people that are the contrary. In SWG I just bought all my mats from other players as I found that gathering was becoming an extra job... let those who enjoy it, do it.
I like crafting that is complex. More complex than in most MMOs. I like the system in SWG, Ryzom, FE, and Vanguard to an extent.
Crafted items should always be better than dropped or NPC made. If the game has a combat gear grind, you should be able to have a gear grind for crafters. Nicer furnace, better anvil, better hammer. These should have small but additive benefits to the weapons, armorm, etc they make.
Now, that being said, I don't personally enjoy crafting. I just want more exciting options for those people that do. I want to be able to play my combat roles and have real incentive to buy an individual's crafts. I want crafters to become respected as 'the uber fletcher of eastmarsh'
I would like crafting professions to be their own classes, but unlike most games, I'd like crafters to have important combat roles since that usually is the bigger focus of a game.
I think crafters should be buffers, repairers, and builders of mounts and seige structures. For a game with mounted combat you would need crafter classes to quickly repair or heal mounts. Perhaps combat classes could do so slowly, but too slow for heat of battle.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I agree except for the combat part. Problem with them being 'buffers' is that it would just make them the perfect 'mules'. Just add to the group for buffs.
I think each character should have an optional combat class and an optional crafter class (you could be pure combat or pure crafter if you want, or both, none interfering with the other), but crafting has nothing to do with the combat process just as combat has nothing to do with crafting process.
Good points. I guess I was thinking as buffers as more large scale open-world PvP where they remain inside castle, trench, base, turrets. Also thinking about entertainers who seem to thrive in SWG and they are a type of 'crafter.'
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I agree and disagree with you.
I agree on the gathering part - I don't think gathering itself should be a profession. At best, some games create "processing" skills that turn gathering into actual jobs. In that situation, a player can collect raw lumber, but it needs to be processed into wooden boards before it can be used. Even though this is fairly realistic it replicates the least interesting part of a craft and really does create virtual jobs nobody wants to do, encouraging a lot of price gouging, botting and farming. I don't think it needs to be done, so I'm inclined to agree with you that it's better to make gathering skills pretty accessible and not require some ridiculous leveling period. It shouldn't be a job. I prefer spending most of my time traveling around and looking for the resources, not making a billion trips back and forth or deforesting an entire continent to make one object - gathering resources as far as the eye can see but always yielding the minimal amount is just frustratingly slow.
But I'm not sure I get what you were saying with crafting itself. I like a lot of crafts, even if they don't replicate professions. I like lots of interacting skills or classes and plenty of things to make for a variety of activities. I even like intermediate or interdependent craft skills, such as a blacksmith making hammers for the carpenter, but it's best if it becomes easier to produce these as the player advances so there is an abundant surplus in later months. I don't mind if it's difficult to get a single iron nail when the game is first released, but I expect barrels of nails to be available for mere pennies within a few months when enough crafters are available.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
My own opinion is that crafting should provide the best gear, but the mats necessary should be obtained through a mixture of standard gathering, and mob drops, with the geography and danger of the former, as well as the difficulty and rarity of the latter set according to the value of the item. Both should involve a least some element of danger and be public, to discourage botting. Open-world harvesting/mining or raiding, for example.
Once the ingredients are obtained, the item should be a assured (given the necessary crafting skill, of course). None of this RNG crap where you might succeed, or might fail and be rewarded with nothing. Put the time sinks into the collecting of the mats, pls. If someone gives me the ingredients for an item, wanting to pay me to actually create the item, he shouldn't have to wonder if my failure to craft the item was honest, or me stealing his hard-collected mats.
Situations where you need to craft 100 of a basic item to progress to a higher level may be realistic, but if the economy can't buy those 100 basic items, it's a crutch and grind, plain and simple. And an especially annoying one, imo.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Just want to say that I agree, and I like your sig
Virtual Reality
I have loathed and despised Crafting in every game I have played in the last decade. The amount of time, game currency and effort involved, simply to make junk in order to get skillups is mega-boring. It isn't as if you end up ultimately makiing anything all that useful to either yourself or anyone else. I'd rather games didn't feature player crafting at all, because it's just an exercise in tedium. Guild Wars suits me fine in this regard - I salvage mats as I play and simply pay an NPC to craft something that I want.
I really enjoyed the crafting system in Pre-Moria Lotro. It wasn't nearly as complex as crafting systems found in other games like SWG and Vanguard, but I still found it to be quite rewarding. I tend to prefer games that make crafting a sub profession. I like having crafting to fall back on when i'm not in the mood to quest or grind mobs. During the Pre-Moria Lotro, top end crafted weapons and armor were on par with top of the line looted items. During those days, gear gating wasn't as big of an issue as it is in the game today. This change to the game was one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing.
However, I also do appreciate more complex crafting system like the ones offered in games like Vanguard and SWG, but I don't think those system would work in more casual MMOs like Lotro and WOW. I would definitely like to see more games in development with the types of systems.
alot in this reply is how Im thinking. mainly because I dont find crafting fun when you have to do 1 item with no value 1000 times...also a reason some games just add a progress bar and let you put in how many of said item you want, its just not fun to me.
as this guy prefer that the time sink should mainly be when you out harvesting, and prefered to be a mix of gathering and killing, depending on what you want to build.
now the way Id love to see gaining new recipes would be you had to find those as well....be it an NPC that you have to do a favour for or be lucky to find an ancient scroll in a dungeon...whatever, just wish it were less simple than go find your "crafter mentor"...sure a crafter mentor to get you into crafting is just great, but prefer if its not THE crafting game.
have yet to have seen a perfectly fun crafting gameplay, that in end could be enough to make some being pure crafters, simply because they have so little to offer in the usual instance grind for gear drops setup.
dont think you need to have decay on items when its like this, but if wrong could make it so that the durability is quite long and if you needed a rare kill, make it so its not a 1 time use....make it so you dont have to grind but may have to repeat it if you want the item again later, but personally would prefer it just were rare to find what you need, for the great items in game.
either way would love to see a game making crafting fun, so far ryzom´s crafting were the best Ive tried, just the fact you need to figure how drops affect your craft is great.....and no havent played SWG.
Good thing for you then that there are sooooooo many games where crafting is just a afterthought so plenty of choices for you, I myself play sooooo many games that don't have crafting, yet in MMORPG I feel it's a much needed part for me to actually enjoy a MMORPG, else I just enjoy ALL those other games without crafting.
Not sure why you despise or loath crafting so much as it's very VERY limited in most current MMO's, so you should be a pretty satisfied player in the current form of this genre.
Personally I loved Crafting in Ultima Online, and of course Star Wars galaxies which was an improvement of the UO crafting model.
The distinction these two Craftying systems have with most of other games is that Crafting itself is not part or required for Game progression on an individual basis.
Meaning that if you made a character of a given role and speciality you did not have to be also a crafter in order to be viable.
This can only be possible if the Crafting system itself, does not contain Ultra Rare and Difficult to find or aquire elements obtained by its gathering. In Ultima Online, you could Cut wood everywhere where there was trees, or mine for Ore in every single Hill side or mounten all over the map, sheath Sheep for wool and turn that in to cloth...there was no ressource hunting.
In SWG, it was the same, ressources for gathering were abundant everywhere of all its basic types, metals organics etc...it even touk gathering a step further than UO by introducing unnatended gathering, you placed a harvester and it gathered the ressources for you.
This meant that there was abundant ressources, which in turn meant that the player market was not inflated which in turn meant that someone who was not a crafter can be viable because they can afford to consume the produce of other players.
Secondly, all of the crafter produce in both of these games were normal items everyone used in a daily basis. There was no really super rare gear, and even if there was some exceptionally crafted items the different with the average items was not game breaking for anyone.
So whether the crafting system is made up for 6 harvestable basic ressources or 300 subcategories of ressources, is really not that important in the end.
What is really important, in my opinion, is how crafting is included in the big picture of the game and how it impacts the gameplay of the individual.
Example you cannot make a crafting system contain rare and hard to aquire components in agame that features involuntary loss... it will simply result in grind and encourage RMT and ultimatelly turn people off the game itself.
On the other hand if there is crafting make it fit with the game, it would be insignificant to have in a game if the crafting produce is surpassed by the droped items in the game...like for example Crafting in WoW it is good for getting some gear when leveling but at end game it is either insignificant or simply a hassle.
Crafting in Lineage2 was a huge huge GrindFest. Crafting in EVE, may seem exciting at first but its gathering is boring as hell, and it tends to be too lengthy and complex too when you include research and standings etc etc, plus, it is a game with involuntary loss...
The point is that crafting should be part of the game but not the focus of the game, unless the game itself is about Economics...such as EVE..then again, not everyone's cup of tea either.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
First, I totally disagree about there being no AH. Thats one of the main things (and the ganking and griefing thats encouraged) that I really dislike about far too many Asian import games. Having to spend my time in an endless search of a literal sea of player stands, wastes not only my time, but the Dev's server resources as well.
Far better from my perspective, to have one central location to check for what ever it is that I may need at a given time.
As for crafting, one of the most detailed crafting games that I've ever played was Istaria. One might say that its a crafting game, wrapped around the other aspects of the game ^^ But highly detailed doesn't always mean good.
What is the purpose of crafting, at its fundamental? Profit(for the crafter) and gear for other players. But there are very few games that have crafted gear(as a rule) thats better than quest or dungeon rewards. WoW has a few(with prices so high in gold that they make your nose bleed ^^). But those tend to be the rare exceptions. Mostly its a dreary grind of 100 tin swords, followed by 400 bronze swords, followed by 800 iron swords...Until your eyes bleed from the grind.
I'd suggest making a mini game of it. Just like in real crafting, there are indications that can be looked for while doing it.
Start with a color matching mini game as the metal heats up. Then another as you work it. If you match the color properly in three passes (no more than three items), you move on to more complex color matches. The number of correct matchs (how soon the match is seen) determines the quality of the gear. This is actually closer to how real crafting is done. It becomes a learning game, rather than just a endless grind.
Throw in different color matches for different materials, and you have the crafting mini game. It rewards those who can match the patterns(as they continue to learn new ones) and also as they gain more skill, produces higher and higher quality gear.
Perhaps have a final step(always optional) that allows the player to try for the highest possible quality for that type of gear. But if any step is failed, the gear is destroyed. Any way, those are my current thoughts on this.
Hey Fish, have you played Asheron's Call?
Originally, there wasn't much crafting. You could fletch or be an alchemist. Or you could do both and make flaming arrows and such. There wasn't any gathering to be had, you just bought the supplies. The appeal was somewhat lmited though, obviously.
Then they added something that I thought was just brilliant. You could break down common loot drops ( Steel Longsword, Teak Crossbow, Ruby) into their core components. Then you could apply those to an item to make it better.
You needed to get 100 pieces of the material and be trained in the skill. There were 3, one for weapons, one for armor and one for adding special abilites (kinda like enchanting). The materials had a quality factor as well, based upon the quality of the original item.
To me, this was probably the best type of crafting system in any game that I have played. There was no designated gathering areas and no gathering skill (the breaking down skill was supplied and advanced as you used it), there was a reason for junk loot and it created a very nice economy.
I dunno, I'm surprised no other game has really taken this approach (that I'm aware of) as I think it would be an ideal format for most players.
Smile, we're in the spotlight.
Its interesting to hear all the varried ideas on what people think of crafting. Some of these systems I find intruiging with many wtists of their own. What seems to appeal to those that like crafting does not to those that don't. The problem seems to be finding a middle-of-the-road system that both sides like. One thing that is clear is that no one likes the craft 100 bronze daggers in order to grind out to the next level. It also appears that in order for crafting to be relevant, it has to at least be better than the majority of the drops, otherwise it feels tacked on and is unused.
So how is this for a crafting system:
Materials are dropped from monsters and salvaged from equipment.
All materials are generic, stone is stone, iron is iron, parchment is parchment.
The majority of crafted items are better than regular drops, some exceptions with unique skins to please the raiders.
Equipment you craft can be upgraded by mods in the crafting phase that change them visually and mechanically. Visual mods can not be removed but mechanical mods can be and placed eslewhere.
Mods can be crafted seperately and then placed on a weapon or armor.
Potions and other consumables are almost entirely dependant on what you put in them. e.g. 5 herbs+15 glittering dust gives you +30 health and +50 mana while 10 herbs and 3 stone give you +60 health and +5 armor.
Minigames are included while crafting, so no boring crafting bar to worry about. Impacts the quality of the item in that it has more durability.
Some skins are only avaliable through crafting, and tend to populate the upper crafting levels.
And of course, no crafting 100 useless pieces of junk in order to lvl.
Good, yes, no?
Disagreement Heirarchy
Why find a middle of the road that appeals to crafters and non crafters? Non crafters dont like crafting, its been said in this thread, some of them loathe having to craft anything, so why not create a game where the crafting will apeal to crafters and those that dont like crafting wont have to bother with it bar maybe buying equipment? A shallow crafting system doesnt appeal to most crafters, nor does it appeal to non crafters, it just annoys almost everyone or is ignored.
If you can progress in a chosen profession seperately to other professions, why not that? PvPers progress through PvP, PvErs progress through PvEing, Crafters progress htrough crafting, Uberachievers could progress in everything if they so wished. The PvPers would be reliant on crafters for gear and could return special boost enhancements (example) gained through PvP to crafters to improve their pvp gear, Crafters would be reliant on PvErs and PvPers for materials and enhancements, PvErs would get materials and PvE orientated enhancements through their PvEing. That would build up community within the game, reliance on others, and if you dont like that you can go the route of the uberachiever but your progression in any given field would be slower than those that concentrated their efforts in one or two fields.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
What Crafting professions are you talking about?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Here are my thoughts:
Personally i love crafting its a nice way to acquire new/better gear if you are bored of grinding mobs or quest and thus adds variation. And not everyone is into the pure hack and slash. But i have often found myself disapointed in the crafting (mainly WoW) as it seems it just ain't worth the efforts and you're better of just questing and also lacks a certain depth (it doesn't need to be super complex like eg Atitd where you need to really spent hours and hours, but than again the game is 99% crafting)
And something i feel is missing is Experimental crafting which basically means: skills you learn by yourself by experimenting . As an example to illustrate what i mean i would take blacksmithing. There would be "general" skills like smelting iron/steel/etc.. and crafting items with those metals but what about being able to create new metals by experimenting , as in real life there are dozens of different steels depending on what other ores you add (more coal? some other metal ores you add?) . But off course there are a limited amount of metals to be discovered and not all wacky combinations give you something and thus you will need to waste quite some ores before finding a new and better metal than the standard ones and each of this special metals will give items made by those special bonuses compared to the standard one.
(you could also add a special: Experemintal *insert crafting profession* skill interface so to speak which has more depth but once you have discovered something you will be able to make those items/metals/etc... through the normal crafting interface)
So while people who cba experimenting could still be able to craft useful standard items the ones who care enough about crafting to spend more time and testing into it would have an extra benefit.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
dont understand why you want to seperate ppl within the same game, mind dont know what if any current game you got in mind....its one of the problems in my eyes, MMOs trying to cater to everyone and in the end no one is happy....what if the whole game revolved around PvP....what if the devs spended all their energy on PvE, instead of making it one full game - not saying the PvP and PvE cant be in the same game, but would need to make sense in the full context.
now crafting is a standard in all MMOs, and well in EQ2 by now Id wish they would just sell crafted gear on NPCs as they got no purpose at all, and for those who really spended their energy on it to be helpful to their guild and friends, its well....wasted time. somewhat liked it in the original game and kept on to it for their first expansion....crafted gear were useful, even ofc some drops in dungeons and raids would be better, but could use the best crafted and not be a joke....they saw this too late really, so yea crafters got other things they make, than their crafter is....like some make crit bonus potions, that have nothing to do with their class.
either way suppose you could have a full crafter class, but that would have to be one awesome crafting game, if it aint meant to be a full time craft game for all, know there are ppl in EQ2 who hardly ever got adventurer to top lvl but had plenty of crafters....but that is really really rare, since well, EQ2 crafting is quite fun....for the first 20ish lvls the first time....but then get really really repetitive
In this case, people need to be separated as in each MMO; PVE vs PVP, carfting vs. non-crafting. There's not alot of point in trying to catering to non-crafters. Make the crafting system deep and complex; the crafters will love it, non-crafters wont care and the middle in the middle will just fall to one side of the fence or the other. I consider myself a casual crafter, but if the system is deep and rich like SWG then I am on-board and will craft, make it shallow and useless like WOW and I am out, make it complex and intricate like EVE and I am building stuff and having fun, make it grindy like Aion and I am out. Crafting is one of those things that you cant tack on afterwards. Either it is in the game as a major component or dont ahve it at all.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
I loved the economy in precu SWG. Also trying to find the best resources and experimenting, etc, was a lot of fun. The fact that items decayed and broke kept the economy healthy and the crafting business booming. Also, there was an interdependency among the crafting professions that sometimes was annoying but did keep you involved in the crafting community.
Usually I like the beginning to middle game aspect of crafting. Once you get past a certain point, all the requirements for recipes becomes a bit tedious and I start focusing more on the adventuring aspect. You should never have to rely on raid drops and stuff, which as a crafter I couldn't get on my own. Ofcourse it does create an interdependence among crafters and adventurers, but I still found it tedious.
do you mean something like this?
http://rapidshare.com/files/404771582/OreGame.zip.html
i more or less never played SWG, but from what i am reading this, this part is pretty similar to this thing i thought up as a part of my dream craft system.
p.s. it is install exe file, so if you dont trust your antivirus (and me
), dont even download it
p.p.s. it is written in VB (Visual Studio 2010) and needs .NET 4, but it does install client itself (download and install that is)
p.p.p.s. it is my more or less first program in visual studio, so it is probable there are some things i should have done differently (especially in building/publishing area), since i more or less used trial and error way
Bear with me since I am going to drift into non-crafting aspects, but I felt I needed to mention other factors that made a great and viable crafting system.
The best Crafting (and Player Economy) system I have ever seen in an MMORPG was with SWG, namely during the Pre-NGE days. A couple things made that possible.
1) The majority of equipment decays from use or on receiving damage. This meant practically everything will breakdown and be rendered useless with more wear and tear. Stats go down after so much of the item's "condition" is lost. It can be repaired, but the maximum condition will be permanently lowered. What this means for Crafters is a better chance for...
2) Repeat business. Crafters were busy making sure the player demands for equipment / foods / drinks / etc. were met since everything breaks after so long. It's not like you make a set of armor and never see that customer again. They might come back to you because of the pricing and quality of your products. Speaking of pricing...
3) Fair pricing on the player market. Lots of customers out there in SWG back then and there were lots of dedicated crafters. Very competetive for the crafters / merchants for business and they actually had to strike that careful balance between turning a profit and putting out quality gear. To a point where they're trying to entice you to return to them for future transactions. Players out there, especially combat and PvP oriented guys would debate about who was the best Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, etc. on the server. You actually began to develop loyalty to certain crafters because of their services and make recommendations to your buddies.
"You said you were looking for a good Laser Carbine? Check out Az over at Naboo. You'll like his stuff. I'll PM you the waypoint."
Sure, there were some merchants that charged insane prices, but you can easily avoid them with just a tiny bit of searching on the Bazaar Terminal's search function and filters.
With some of the truly expensive itmes out there, they were namely rare mats, extremely rare but powerful loot gear (that decays, so they never are permanent), or crafted items made with the absolute best and rarest of materials.
4) Player Interdependence - One of the good things SWG used to do right was interdependency between the players. Combat types needed the crafters / merchants for equipment. The latter in turn needed Combat types to venture out and get certain rare drops (since Non-Combat types had the most basic combat ability, or none at all, depending on how dedicated they were to it) from NPCs. Sometimes they'd hire a player to temporarily act as a bodyguard while they gather resources from a remote harvester located in a dangerous area. You can wheel and deal of course with the merchants if you have the rare mats for an item on hand already.
5) Resource Quality and Availability. SWG was the only MMORPG that I have seen where there was even a variation in quality between the same type of resource. A specific ore can have better qualities if mined from one planet or another. The server changes when, where, and quality of resources. Savvy crafters were always looking for the best mats because those mats in turn greatly affected crafted equipment quality. There were also times when certain resources just weren't available, which in turn drove up the prices of those unavailable resources as well as equipment requiring those items.
6) A deep and highly varied crafting system. It's not just you getting to a certain tier, get X, Y, Z and you'll get Item A with the same stats, all the time. It's not even W, X, Y, Z and you'll get a superior Item A. Item quality depended on a large variety of factors.
* Resource Type & Quality - Resources had stats to themselves. You also were not required to use the same exact type of resource for making an item. You can use alternatives, and they in turn bring different qualities to the finished product.
* Quality of Crafter's Tools
* Crafter's ability to have and properly use "Experimentation Points" - This is a critically important aspect. Experimentation was the ability for the crafter to emphasize / de-emphasize characteristics of the item. Example with a Laser Carbine:
---- Emphasizing higher damage stats but it may drive up HAM (Health/Action/Mind Pool points) costs to use it or possibly lower the weapon's speed.
---- Emphasizing weapon speed at the cost of other characteristics
---- Emphasizing accuracy and damage at cost of other characteristics.
On and on. How the crafter experiments and what resources they use means that there was a great variety for even a single item.
============================================
The system is complicated, especially in light of today's simplistic crafting systems. But SWG at one point struck a wonderful balance between us combat oriented players and the non-combat ones. The game used to have a healthy number of non-combat players that were absolutely and totally dedicated to that aspect of the game. After SWG was changed for the worse and me leaving, I have yet to see any MMORPG that struck that wonderful balance. We had many, many Crafters / Merchants that never played combat roles. They were heavily involved with the deep crafting system, looking for the best resources possible, checking the market and competition, experimenting and making blueprints (for massed production) for a good final product, and of course doing crafting runs on their factories.
The big difference between SWG's old Crafting & Economy was that Crafting wasn't a mere afterthought. It was as deep an aspect of gameplay as Combat. There were numerous little things they needed to know and do right to get a good product out, just as Combat players needed to know about applying their trade and skills for a fight. Combat and Non-Combat players were all equally viable in putting your time and effort into playing, and both styles of play were very deep if you wanted to be good at it.
I miss those days of MMORPG gameplay.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)