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General: Community Spotlight: Thoughts on Crafting in MMOs
MikeB
Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,555
This week’s Community Spotlight focuses on the thread “Crafting: What do you like?” by Fishbaitz.
In the thread, Fishbaitz polls the community on their thoughts and preferences for crafting in MMOs:
“I was responding to a post on another forum on crafting, telling him my thoughts on the matter. He was for having a myriad of crafting profession and gathering professions, like mining, gathering, smithing, fletching, cooking, ect; with many levels or tiers in each category. He supported this with it meant a good economy and lots of content. I was inclined to disagree.
My thoughts on the matter is that crafting should be limited to the actual crafting professions with less or smaller levels in them. And gathering would be largely simplified as well by giving more from each resource node. I supported this with the claim that his style of crafting isn't fun and is overly grindy, and that you don't need gathering professions to support crafting professions in order to have a good economy. I also stated that crafting like that is not a lot of content.
We both claimed that the majority of the MMO community was behind us, but I got curiose and wanted to find out what other people thought about it all.
So, do you like blueprint or exploratory crafting? Gathering and Crafting or Crafting alone? Multi-combination materials or straight materials? Many tiered materials or few generic ones? I want to know your thoughts and any examples of crafting systems found in games that you like or dislike. I want to know what the MMO community wants.”
Read this week's Community Spotlight here.
Comments
Personally I think the more indepth the crafting is the better! When you have a "generic" simplified blueprint for every item in a game, the game ends up being "generic" and blah. If you have a multi-tiered crafting system where you can craft say a weapon from various materials and have various results, it makes the game and the economy of the game even more interesting imho.
They sold us a half-baked Fail-sauced pizza.
* With a side of monthly fee!
Crafting is one of the things that keeps me in SWG. The harder and more complicated the better. Give me subcomponents on my subcomponents and make the qualiy of the resources count too.
I too playied SWG and really enjoyied the complexity of the crafting system. With everything player crafted and from different quality materials even if people had the same armor piece the characteristics could very quite a bit. It was cool to be able to name every single item and know who created what. I remember searching out items crated by some of the best players on the server. Crafting was more than just pushing buttons, you constantly had to be searching for the highest quality resources.
The depth of crafting professions allowed players to participate in the game who may not have been as combat centric. A system promoting additional players and play styles increases the diversity of the community and I think it is a good thing.
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes
* He needs more bullet points though
I like to see where a crafting and resource supply system is of value to the player community. There are certainly extremes to how that is accomplished. In SWG most of the drops from quests were better than crafted until they modified the system with addons to player armor. Crafting for housing and armor or ship hulls became a viable profession and there was a community demand. AOC has a simple crafting system. Player made gear is marginally better than "blue" drops and so there's a market for it. It's not so burdensome that it takes away from the primary skill set or PvP/PVE time. Then there's the EVE approach. There crafting is a full time profession more complex than anything else in the game. But it totally drives the economy and the really good crafters and the game billioniares.
Whatever system the Devs put it place; it has to drive a demand for the crafted outpu that's in line with the time invested.
Crafting make a game more fun for me i realy like it.
My first real crafting experience was also with SWG and i realy liked it but i also liked what they (soe) did in EQ2 making it a second skill set it was like i was lvling 2 char in one so...
I would like the crafting to mean something in a game like it was in swg get a item template and then dependend on the type of material you use it get different stats for example. like if you make a sword it needs metal and leather so 1 metal slot 1 leather slot then 2 more, 1 for decorations (gems or color) and 1 for stat( like coal to make it harder or some magic powder to add stats and or a glow).
But i do think that gathering has to be open for all so anybody can gather anything however if your more skilled (using lvl or skill points) get more or better stuff.
Mining or things like that would be done by finding the ore and digging it up but as you get better at it you can use a find metal or gems or things like that skill(something like the find metal thing in wow) that by reading the landscape makes you find better spots or lets you find a place to tell some npc that then builds a mine and gives you some of the ore every day and the right to mine there whenever you want (like a coownership or even work for you in that mine).
Same for things like leather make a deal with a butcher or a rancher or poacher
.
"Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it,
Or who said it,
Even if I have said it,
Unless it agrees with your own reason
And your own common sense"
- The Buddha, from Dhammapada
1. Playstyle options: Advancement should have options for tinkerers, AFKers and twitchers. Should be able to "explore" the profession and experiment if the crafter chooses; should be able to do mindless grinding if the player wants (sorta like Runescape but not as bad as that), freeing up time at the keyboard for socializing; should be able to sacrifice something for faster advancement.
2. Gameplay-based crafting interdependence: Don't hard-code the restriction of crafters to X out of Y options (e.g., 2 WoW professions out of 15 or so). Design the game so advancing in multiple professions is possible, but requires some sacrifice of time, resources and/or capability. Plenty of room for creativity here. Make sure what a player crafts has at least SOME value to other players.
3. Social crafting methods: Social minigames for advancing your crafting, focusing on older/experienced players helping other players, as well as newer players being rewarded for helping higher level crafters achieve rare feats in the profession.
4. Lessen combat/leveling necessity: Make it possible, if insanely hard, to advance to high levels of crafting withough much/any combat and/or general leveling, but reward more advanced combatants/levelers with faster/more options.
I am a social person, and I enjoy playing MMOs as much for interacting with others as it for any other reason. I don't have a great computer, plus iit's a laptop, and I don't feel the need to spend countless hours learning how to be an elite twitch/skill gamer. Instead, I like putting my nose to the grindstone, doing the "slow and steady" route. A game that acknowledges and borderline rewards a playstyle like that, similarly to how they do the elite "gamer" types, would be a game I'd love.
I like gathering my own resources for crafting. Most of the gameplay i'm involved with would be whatever pve was necessary to get the materials i need. And yes, the more in depth, the more tiers, varying quality of materials, etc... the better.
One thing i hate about many crafting systems is that crafting is marginalized to simply leveling up the skill and throw away the results, until you're a high level crafter. Crafting on any level, even noob levels, should have some amount of profitability. Resources are limited, so there should be minimal waste of them, and the time and cost of procuring them.
Also, there should always be the ability to craft something much better than what is available as drops ( except a few special super rare drops )... but crafters should never have to yield economically to the quality of raid drops. Obviously, if you get a good thing from a raid (basically for free) good for you, but if someone has a lot of gold, they should be able to buy my much better shiny super thingy for top dollar.
In a game with proper crafting, all crafts would be a required part of the economy. Furry four-footed monsters dropping armors or swords? Whatever... thats retarded. Get your gear from a blacksmith. Need repairs? NPCs would have lower success rates than decent level smiths. All modifications should be able to be done by crafters. Material gathering should be able to be done by anyone... but players with specialized gathering skills should get more or higher quality materials than others. If material quality is an issue, as it should be, then higher quality materials will always be in demand, and lesser quality materials could be used for repairs, or for the lowest quality... used for "practice" and gaining skills.
-As far as the comments above, i agree with Kookas the most. I'm definately one of the peeps who would rather grind materials and craft than deal with pvp or raid or any combat except what is necessary to get to the resources. Everyone has their own version of "fun".
I am a middle of the road kinda gamer when it comes to MMOs, and crafting is no exception to this general rule. I have played some sand boxes in my day (SWG, Eve) and the overly complex time consuming crafting hauls really turned me off. I spent so much time in SWG crafting and gathering that I fell dreadfully behind in progression ... sure i had the best gear for my progression level but all my gmaing buddies lapped me in skill advancement and by the time i gave up the crafting I couldnt catch back up .... then when I finally did catch up i haad so far removed myself from crafting it was like learning the whole system over again!
Conversely in WoW I found the crafting system too simple with not enough options, and not enough reward to the ammount of time you spent in material gathering... the equipment just never lived up the the raid dungeon sets. There also wasnt enough variety to the crafting for my taste... where is brewing? how bout some more armor sets and some wands worth making ... I mean really the wands were pitiful (been a long time now since i played but back then there wasnt a single craftable wand worth the 2c worth of mats it took to make) there wasnt much point in making the vast majority of the craftable items other than getting skill up points... to me thats a wasted system! I liked the gathering syustem in WoW but the actual crafting just never seemed enough for me.
EQ had a pretty good crafting system, not too very complicated but diverse and useful, with lots of clever oddities and rare recipes. If you combined the EQ style crafting system with the WoW style gathering system, I think you'd have maybe the perfect crafting system (for me of course)
I agree that crafting should have gatherers and producers. It provides a role for those who like to explore (gathering) and those who like to make things (producers). However the tiered approach used in so many MMOs is broken because there is a poor market for "low tier" (AKA, not top tier) mats.
Mats should be simplified so that the low tier mats are used throughout the crafting process. This also necessitates that they are available all over the place. I don't mind harder to obtain mats but their rarity should also be matched by their small usage in crafting.
On the flip side I feel that crafting should be time intenstive. Being able to create dozens of items which won't ever leave the economy, especially in the non-destructive environments most MMOs foster. Because of this the items will rarely sell. Items which are fast and cheap to produce must be destructable. Items which won't be destroyed often (if at all) should be extremely slow (and thus expensive) to produce to ensure their rarity. In fact large items should often be a group effort to produce.
In short, look to the only MMO economy which is exceptionally robust and you'll see all of those systems in play. EVE Online. Is it any wonder they also have hired an economist to handle the reigns of that economy?
Not just another pretty color.
I like the Vanguard crafting system as you can mix and match items found to make sets of armour, weapons or jewlery with various effects to suit your or the customers play sytle.
I also like the Eve Online crafting system where you can use original blueprints to invent other technology. As for the rest of the MMO's I have played their crafting systems have been bellow standard in my own view. WoW being the worst out of them all.
I really liked the gathering/crafting system in Sga of Ryzom. There were no loot drops at all, but everything you killed would give you crafting materials of varying qualities and levels that you then could combine in many different ways to create different effects in your crafted item.
I agree that craft-grinding is something to be avoided, then again in most MMOs you also happily grind away at levelling your combat skills and lvls.
I like crafting, and it gets addicting because of its progression. Just like leveling a character, you learn knew recipes as you gain skill in that craft.
But I really don't like it if it takes more from the game than it adds. Leveling crafts in WoW, for example, is costly in either time (gathering) or money (buying resources). A few end up being lucrative at high level...but in between...it will bankrupt you.
The other frustrating part is that RARELY if ever is something from crafting equal to, or better than what you can get from quests or dungeons. So all that time and money ends up being used for nothing. The worst (in wow) has to be blacksmithing. You can socket your own gear, and make a socket for one type of item for others...but there is so little of value. Even the epics you can make at 80 aren't worth it...until you get to the recipes you get in the dungeon where you kill the lich king. But those are SO FAR and above the ilevel 200 epics. By the time you've got the rep to get the recipe, and run enough dungeons to get the materials....you've probably already got just as good or better from bosses.
Some things make sense from a "game" perspective but make no sense from a story perspective. A master (insert craft here) should be able to repair/augment/customize armor/items within his profession. But in WoW you cannot even repair your own armor! Sure, I can make it...but not fix it!
The other thing that bugs is how many recipes you have that are "skill up" fodder. Useless to wear...so worthless to try and sell. But great for "skilling up". BLAH!
The other idea I don't like is that you don't get any better at that recipe. Instead, i'm required to use better material to get a better weapon...doesn't make sense. I know how to use a high end material to make a sword and a breastplate. I know how to make a dagger out of the low end stuff. Why can't I make THAT dagger out of the better stuff...and get a better dagger out of it? Of course...that would mean I wouldn't have to GRIND my profession as much...so I'd spend less time in game...so I'd spend less money over all, right? *rolls eyes*
I'm going to stay if its fun. Make crafting useful, and not a grind...and it'll be a fun aspect of the game.
Currently not playing any MMOrpg --
Lvl 80 paladin WoW
Luminary was a great crafting game but it had too much grinding and you had to pay what ever the owner of the mine charged whihc became impossible mine. i like how the craftng of armor and weapons you had a very small succes to create Master grade and Perfect grade items. that i loved cuz you actually had somthing to keep crafting for and also every tiem you made somthing it had different stats on them. in other games i have expierenced was Grand Fantasia this game out of 1-10 i would rate it 2.. the crafting was horrible.. it all depedned on your luck to make the armor or you weapon...
heheh
The reason crafting is at all lucrative in WoW is because people buy things to expedite that leveling process which is so addictive in the first place. I'd have to say in my experience with the game, any kind of crafted armor or weapon is useless compared to dropped ones, and people only craft gear to cover gaps in what they haven't found on their own yet. The rest craft because it's just another form of progression to "maxout on".
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Sorry for double post, but forgot something.
Lets say craft skill goes from 1 to 450. If I learn a "recipe" at level 15, for example...when I get to skill level 450, and am now a "master" smith, shouldn't the recipe i learned at level 15 produce a better weapon?
Currently not playing any MMOrpg --
Lvl 80 paladin WoW
Crafting is one of the reasons why I play MMOs. if it all got too simple, I probably wouldnt bother with MMOs so much.
The guy with the comment about better gear drops from creatures really cracked me up. I mean come on, how realistic is it when you kill a bear that it drops a sword of awesome? You can get fur, leather and meat off a bear and that is about it.
The only good crafting system is one where levels are completely ignored and just skill is the determining factor. You get your basic materials off the land and the flora and fawna. The economy should depend on the crafters, they should be producing the best items. A players level should never factor into crafting. A crafter should not have to level themselves just to get crafting skills.
Nothing wrong with having items drop in a dungeon maybe through chests and such, but top notch crafter items should be competitive with them, maybe requiring items that are found in the dungeons.
If your economy is not based on your crafting system all you have is a very short lived game because players will get bored and find something else to occupy their time.
1) Crafting has to deliver better items than the dropsystem (unless its rare uber loot)
2) Crafting has to give bonuses (like the EQ2 craftsystem, best craftsystem yet)
3) Crafting should not be limited by ItemShops (selling consumables is just wrong!)
4) doesn't matter if you let crafters be gatherers too or not, if point 1, 2 and 3 are met, your craft system will work.
5) prefer recipe based systems. More chance to make and build something, rare rather than giving everyone the same recipes from the skilltree.
In games, I have only a couple adventurer playstyles I like. But I try all the crafting professions. Except in WoW because in crafting in WoW sucks. In EQ2, I have one of each crafter type, and I actually log in now primarily to craft and gain another level, adventuring only when I need more money. Really, crafting is about all that is entertaining or enjoyable in most MMOs. If it isn't enjoyable, then I don't play the game. What else is there to do in a game when you're waiting on the rest of your raid to get online? In WoW, they call them dailies. BORING. No, I'd rather be spending my time making useful potions, needed buff items, or other similarly worthwhile items. They don't exist in WoW. EQ2 has them in spades. I've yet to find any other games that satisfy my crafting desires.
Ok, Vanguard did, but they did nothing with it after release and so I left. It wasn't worth my time. I really miss it. I love diplomacy in Vanguard, too. RIP, Vanguard.
I have wrote about this before in other threads but repeat here too... Sad I never played SWG pre-nerf so can't compare but for me best crafting system I ever meet is in Fallen Earth. Whole game is w/out classes and races and same is in craft. There is very many crafting areas: weapons, ballistic, science, medicine, construction, cooking, geology etc etc. And one can develop himself to max lvl in each (I have done it
). Also every person can gather all kind of mats when skill is rised enough. Also quality of mats depends how much higher is Ya skill over reqed skill for given source.
And best thing is that all (even boss) lots are mediocre lvl - best and top things come from crafters. Some things even never drop and could be only crafted. Next thing I respect is that all items (nearly all but few rare recipt books etc) don't bind on user after ya take it once. After growing out ya can freely sell/gift/AH it to next player etc. So economy is flowering in any means.
And crafting gives ya experience points which go to same total exp ya use for leveling up, so one can theoretically lvl to max w/out running quests or killing stuff or PvP. All depends from skill points how high ya can climb, ya can't be maxed in all skills, but ya can be max crafter with maxed ranged weapons to PvE (or PvP).
But what I wait from craft is to expand that system to player's researched/developed/found recipes. Or master crafters can alter exisating ones trying different components/metals/additional stuff to get not needed hardly overpowered items, but somehow different, personal, shining looks etc. This can be done with help of GMs and when they found new stuff interesting then adding them to game.
Nice move would be run ya own workshop where ya can hire NPC-worksmen to make some boring mat preps for nice salary. Better ya pay, better stuff they make and steal less :P Players can build mines and open say woodworkers plants, farms where they can establish some nice resource flow. Best mines ofcause in dangerous areas where both NPC bandits or opposite faction players can try to attack and robber or steal ya stuff. Ya can hire PCs or NPC as guards, bigger mines and plants run by guilds. Then open markets and supermarkets who buy stuff from crafters and resources from gatherers. Add therer NPC clerks who can sell by different prices ya stuff depending nuyers charisma skill or bluff skill (in borders given by ya), again more better salary for clerk, better income they make for ya. And make different game areas different by their resources - basic mats ya can find in each and every region but best and quality metals and gems come from mountain areas ruled by dwarf kings (and player dwarfs). Beach areas produced best fish but maybe some delicious trouts ya found only in some hilly area rivers. Forest regions supply wood and leather and fur and rarest spices. And then make economy bounds between these areas, caravans moving around, some players maybe are best mercantiles hiring knights and soldiers to guard their precios caravans moving thru dangerous lands.
I think not only crafting but wider economy could be nice addtion to MMOs, see how popular are differents sims and tycoons. But forgetting economy isn't good. We saw how LOTRO made nearly all crafters meaningless - why one must craft armors and weapons and bows etc when to participate raids and end-game instances everybody must be in same radiance armor and legendary weapons. All same (only cosmetic) like north Korean citizen clothed in blue worker's suits. And before Moria craft was in LOTRO some how OK tho I still can't understan limits of crafts. eg I can be Supreme Master weaponsmith and make perfect metal ingots and shining swords but can't make even simpliest shield from the same metal or component metal plates for armor, stupid isn't it?
And make use for earned money. As one big guild with many top crafters, many top supermarketers, caravanholders and good army hires more NPC regiments and then can takeover some local citys ruled by NPC kings and then start to rule it themselves.
I'm not a crafter, but I do think its important for it to be in game. I never crafted in DAoC, but it was very important in the game. It ran the economy, and I could sell my loot to people who salvaged it. I love playing MMOs with a vibrant economy. Sadly, those are few and far between.
I liked the balance that DAoC had for crafting. Not overly complicated, very useful, and rewarded dedication.
It drove the economy, gave a focus to guilds (guild crafter needs support so guild goes out and gets items/loot to sell to support crafter or give to crafter) it was viable and you mad emoney from it. If you put the time and effort (and vast amounts of money) into it and got to the top of the tree for crafting you were actaully in demand for your time and "skills".
Crafting areas were vibrant and regular crafters formed their own community within a community.
It just contributed to the overall game in so many ways.
I think the features that has really changed crafting since SWG first came out is the auction houses. If you think about it, most of what SWG did right with crafting would be ruined by an auction house. The auction house isn’t necessarily a bad feature but it’s one that controls a games economy. In SWG you didn’t just look on the auction house search and simply try to undercut the entire market. You had to talk to other player, you had to actually interact. If you wanted to sell your goods, you put a store and tried to advertise. With the auction house you are never encouraged to socialize, you really don’t even know who your buying it from.
I definately love in-depth crafting! I love making things and making profit off of stuff I love doing.
I hope GW2 has some sort of crafting that has an easy option and a harder in-depth for better items. I sort of like EVE in the sense of that stuff and the economy especially.
I just want an in-depth crafting experience where my crafts MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
I'm not a crafter and don't want to be. I rahter collect and have some npc do it for me. If the loot is good I tend to horad a lot. Crafting mats take up too much inventory. It's a hassle I avoid whenever possible.