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Support Classes
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
In old school mmos we see more diverse roles within class design. Such as, the trinity, Tank, Healer, DPS. There is also support classes. Suppor classes can be devvied up as a healer, or a crowd control or a buffer/de-buffer. It seems as if newer mmos are just sticking with the trinity class design and offereing some support within those classes. If an mmo had stricly four distinct class roles, tank, dps, healer and support. Would you play a pure support class?
To me, I see the pure support classes handicaping players because of the scarcity of support classes. I don't mind support classes, however I just don't see to many players wanting to play this. I think the best way to implement support is to design it within the trinity class design.
When you vote, please discuss why you would or would not play a pure support class. What type of support would you see in a pure support class? From experience in playing mmos, I know that when grouping is more used players won't group unless you have the required class types in group. To me, it seems the most popular roles in mmos are... DPS - Tank - Healer - Support.
In my design I use the trinity and devvied up the support roles as secondary roles to the primary archetype. If I could design a fun way for pure support classes I would have them. I just don't see many players playing them.
Comments
I wouldn't play a -pure- support class, no.
But I would play a support class that can either deal some damage or heal, at about 75/25 ratio.
It would spice things up a little. I actually prefer classes like that.
Right. I added more stuff to the OP. Of course support classes wont have all support. But the 75/25 ratio does seam very reasonable. Of course all classes should have some form of damage.
I voted yes but with some stipulations. I would only play a pure support class if the game had an old school forced grouping setup. Most games that have come out in recent years are all focused toward soloing and the MMO playerbase in general has gravitated toward this tendancy to group for a certain task, say almost nothing, complete it and leave in silence. This wouldn't work for me if I was in a pure support role. Kind of defeats the purpose if no one grouped with you anyway.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
I agree with you 100%. Id rather have forced grouping than strict solo play. However, I think solo play should be available but it wouldn't get near as many bonuses or incentives as grouping would offer. If that is the case would support classes still be handicaped?
I don't think so. If the most efficient way to progress through the game was to group than a pure support class would be just fine. Someone with a deadset solo playstyle wouldn't touch a class like that with a 10 foot pole regardless.
Are you looking at developing an MMO or something?
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
Whenever I start playing a new MMO I always try and find out what class is needed the most. I usually get the generic reply of, "Play what's fun! Duh!" but what I really enjoy while playing these games is filling a needed role. So a pure support class would be right up my alley due to the fact that not many people would go that route and they, in theory, would be able to really influence what a group of players could accomplish.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
I have been developing my mmo since 2004 in a massive high concept doc. I graduated college with a bachelors in video game design. I am currently working on a portfolio peice which shows the best of the work for the high concept doc. Once I break into the industry I am going to try and somehow get my ideas out. I have a solid vision. My game will cater to the old school gamer niche mainly. I am sick of the crap that is coming out and we need a home. I am pretty confident that if I get a chance my game will do well if the implemetation is right.
Anyways, what kind of support would you find in a pure support class? Would you consider CC as support? Or just simply buffing/de-buffing?
Yea I would, I played a controller in COH, though yea I was healing abit. I thought it made playing a healer alot more playble since I was doing more than just playing whack a mole. and CC is very powerful in COH. umm ice slick.
but yea, thats the only game i play as support, all other games its boring and i endup playing some form of Plate/tank melee.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
CC is absolutely something that I would consider a support class. When done right CC is very engaging and a rewarding process. It requires team work and when something goes wrong people die.
Are you looking at grouping all support into one class or multiples?
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
This is my core design for class roles. Primary role is their archetype. Via, tank dps and healer. Each archetype class has a secondary role which is a support role. I thought this process would make the class play more indepth which can provide more strategy. Each archetype has three separate classes. If I designed a support archetype, I would have to have three support classes. However, if the support archetype is added into the design, all of the secondary abilities and roles for all classes wil be omited which I think may take away from the complexity of the class design. I wanted to shy away from the one role scenarios. I would assume players would invite based on the primary role and the secondary role would be an incentive/perk to the class being in the group. Also, I didn't know how to make the support classes fun to play. I hope I made some sense.
right, i just dont know how to design the support classes to be unique and fun.
Absolutely. What you are talking about will work but it may be tough. When classes hold multiple roles people tend to focus purely on the DPS and disregard any sort of support actions that they can do for the greater good. Specially if you plan on having a strong PvP focus. For some reason PvP makes folks go ga-ga over big numbers over their enemies heads; when locking them down so the pure DPS class can burn them would actually cause a definite win.
On an unrelated note I took a peek at your profile. I am stationed at Fort Knox right now. Howdy neighbor.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
In WoW for example
Healing and Tanking are considered Support Roles.
So if you asking if I would play a class that could "ONLY" heal or "ONLY" Tank
then, maybe would be my answer. All depends on how they play in PvP, and if its fun and interesting mechanics for the class and gameplay.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Right, absolutely. Thus, my design is targeted for a hardcore pve focus. I do want to implement pvp, but pvp will come later. I do believe that pvp does scramble design and mess up mechanics because pvp makes things out of balance. If that made sense. My philosophy is this. My design is hardcore pve focused on grouping with incentives and bonuses. Solo play is available but its easier to progress within a group. I think the only time you should solo is when you can't find a group
Awesome! Howdy neighbor to you as well! Two of my very good friends live in E-Town and Radcliff. One actually works at Ft. Knox for a summer job.
I would and have done so several times. I don't mind playing support roles, as I don't find it boring and it is usually very easy to find groups when needed due to there not being a flood of other people playing the same type of char. I usually always have a support class that I have also geared/built/skilled toward support.
Right. I think there are two essential ways to design this.
A: Have three defined archetypes, tank, dps and healer which each has a secondary role for support
or
B: Have four defined archetypes, tank, dps, healer and support with one singular role.
I think that Option A works best in a grouping and soloable gameplay. However, with more focus on grouping
I think that Option B works best in a forced group environment.
I think option A brings more dynamics to the class where your not doing the same role all of the time. Also option A allows more of stragetic gameplay. In option B, the class design has to complement classes to releive stress of the singular role. Or it can be tedious and boring.
What would you perfer? A or B? and Why?
My personal preference would be option B. I don't mind being a one trick pony as long as it is interesting and easy to learn but hard to master. Option A will cause people to choose one role or the other and concentrate on that. Almost everyone is a min-maxer (myself included) and will do whatever it takes to eek out as much performance as they can for their chosen role. This inevitably leads to game mechanics that are a nuiscance. As an example I remember I was playing a warrior back in vanilla WoW and I would, no joke, carry around four sets of armor. DPS, physical tanking, fire tanking, and nature tanking sets. I know that is an extreme but it will happen unless there was a way to eliminate the need for focused itemization.
I just feel more comfortable with joining a group knowing that I have a well defined role and I know what is expected of me. Maybe I am an exception to the rule.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
You know I agree with your assement here. I like both options. My game design is geared towards option A. Maybe if you saw my class design and combat mechanics you'd change your mind =D. Yes, many players will make that vital mistake and focus on their primary role. However, that will hinder their class play as a whole. I have the secondary role complement the primary role of that class. Which can also be very useful in group play.
The way I have my AI setup, you better use all angles of your class wisely or you will surely die in group and out of group. However, I do not have a set route of builds. I allow the player to have full access to the class but limit them on how many abilities can be activated on one hot bar. So essentially, you could play a warrior in my game as well as another but you'd use their abilities in different ways for different situations. As a player you can alternate between your player made "builds" for different situational scenarios. When I speak about builds, that shouldn't hinder between the primary and secondary roles. Each so called "build" you should still use both sets of roles to the way you best see fit.
I wouldn't mind taking a look. I code in C# and XNA in my off time binking around with making games for Xbox and Windows. Considering my line of work I don't get many opportuniites to do that but I also have taken several game design classes, have created some very basic games and have been gaming since the days of Commodore 64. I am by far not any sort of expert in the field but I have been around it for long enough to get a feel for what is going on and if something is sub-par or not. On top of that I will give you an honest no frills opinion on whatever the subject matter.
In the end I don't care how the game is set up as long as it's fun.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
If you want to gather the more solo play gamers you need to add some sort of summonings to the support archetype. That way this supporter will have someone to support even when he is playing alone. And sometimes people are just sick of this "mass of retarded people".
If i would be you I would consider 4 archetypes. The more the better obviously. I would throw in a wide array of skills from buffs (maybe including regenaration), debuffs, crowd control, summonings. Of course the amount of skill points (or whatever is your equivalent) should be enough to be good only in some of them. That way the more party oriented players will go support heavy. The more solo inclined players will go for summons. Those summoners could also take some skills and fullfill a role of support/tank if they would take choice of skills to do this.
tl;dr: All in all. I would play anything that is fun to play. If you make it right, people will play it.
I would love to see support classes in mmos.. It's one reason why I loved EQ1 long before it became deraided by poor expansions.. Enchanters were not wanted in groups for their dps, tanking or healing.. Bards were not wanted for theie tanking, dps and heals.. But then those games strongly encouraged support classes because you wanted to avoid "down time".. If you didn't want to run out of mana all the time, etc etc.. Support classes were great for group camping.. But now a days with your WoW playstyle, you really don't have to worry about mana management, CC and whatnots.. /oom? Here have a strudel or biscuit.. Designing games for 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps groups is about as LAZY in programing as one can get.. oh wait.. nope.. having a 1 class do it all would be the laziest.. but the holy trinity formula is a close 2nd .. IN MY OPINION..
I miss the ole days of a puller, a tank, a healer, a buffer, a cc artist, a debuffer, off heals, off tank, dps, snaring, etc etc.. Again, in my opinion having mobs lose agro by running 100 feet away from them is.. ummmmm boring.. I loved it in EQ that you had to watch out for trains, and if you got on the agro list, you better either zone out, or find a way to wipe the agro memory.. It was those things that made adventuring interesting..
I think it would be best to stay away from having main archtypes.,. I wish to see role defining skillsand abilities.. When you say archtype, such as dps, and their secondary support role is "CC".. I think of EQ1 Enchanters, and back in the day.. if we saw an enchanter spending more of their time and energy dps'ing.. They would be replaced quickly.. As a CC support class your primary job is to support, not to dps, heal or tank.. Shamans were a great example, they could debuff and dot mobs into dust.. IF those so chose, but depending on the group make up, shamans had to mana-manage and most did it well.. OH.. and EQ1 Necros were awesome for group play.. Who wants a mana battery? sheeeesh.. I miss those days of a 6 man camp in a tough location, a puller pulls, tank grabs agro when mob is in the camp, healer heals and meds, support does their tricks, dps does theirs.. mob below40% health and puller goes out looking for another target.. At times things got ugly and hectic.. and LOVED those crazy adds.... SHIT.. will someone go park that add.. LOL
The more options you force upon the group dynamics and mob AI.. the more exciting the challenge
Death was very real, and I so loved those long ass 10 minute kills.. LOL and anyone remember camp breaking? I tell ya, that was fun going in an breaking a camp, then owning it, while sending your puller out to bring in extra prey.. It was great when we would screw up and pull a mob and mistime the respawns.. OOOOOOPS.. Adds........
BTW.. I'm a train fan, corpse run fan, sandbox fan.. a good mmo shouldn't be a walk thru the park, nor should it be predictable
I wouldn't play a pure support class. I had a healer once in my life (in Fiesta, paladin, because they are not squishy like healers in other games) and I remember the frustration it caused... I was a very good fullsupport paladin, so I always did everything to keep my party alive. And in Fiesta, that means nonstop healing, because HP goes down so quickly. My fingers hurt so much, I physically became tired because of healing and even my asthma got worse. x.x Maybe Fiesta wasn't the best game to be a support class, but I will never be a healer anymore, lol. Right now I have a semi-support class in PWI (Veno, bramble buff, spark lending, pulling bosses, debuffing) and it's a fun class compared to the healbot I had in Fiesta.
I want to reborn as a Sylvari.
kinda like guild wars?
Kind of maybe. I never really played Guild Wars. From what I understand is that when you pic a class you choose from a vast set of abilities. Once you choose those abilities they are set in stone. Maybe I am wrong.
Basically this how mine works. All classes are allowed 15 abilities activated at one time. Each class has a wide array of abilities to choose from. In the hot bar menu, you can create different sets of hot bars with abilities on them. You can gear your sets to different situational purposes. I got the idea from EQ when you can load different spell sets onto your hotbar. I believe limiting the amount of abilities on a hot bar can offer more a strategic play style because you do not have access to all of your abilities at once. However, you can always alternate abilities on hotbars at will out of combat. I thought it worked great in EQ when they limited your abilities to 8. For an example, one wizard would rather use ice comet and 2 fire dd spells versus the other wizard who used 1 magic and fire dd spell and the rest rain spells. They where essentially the same class but played differently. There is a time to limit and not a time to limit in class design. And I fully believe this is the fairest time to limit a player.