I voted no, even though I have played a few over the years.
When I start a new MMO, the first character class I try to choose is the one that is the most independent, the one that can do the most things on it's own. I like alts, and my choosing an independent class first, I can set up a type of sugar daddy for any alts that follow. Also, as I select those alts, I will first focus on classes that can do stuff that my previous characters cannot. The goal is that if my one character can't do everything (like, say, all types of crafting), then collectively, me and my alts will be able to. The goal, once again, is independence. While I enjoy interacting with others in an MMO, I utterly loathe being dependent on it.
I would love to see support classes in mmos.. It's one reason why I loved EQ1 long before it became deraided by poor expansions.. Enchanters were not wanted in groups for their dps, tanking or healing.. Bards were not wanted for theie tanking, dps and heals.. But then those games strongly encouraged support classes because you wanted to avoid "down time".. If you didn't want to run out of mana all the time, etc etc.. Support classes were great for group camping.. But now a days with your WoW playstyle, you really don't have to worry about mana management, CC and whatnots.. /oom? Here have a strudel or biscuit.. Designing games for 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps groups is about as LAZY in programing as one can get.. oh wait.. nope.. having a 1 class do it all would be the laziest.. but the holy trinity formula is a close 2nd .. IN MY OPINION..
I miss the ole days of a puller, a tank, a healer, a buffer, a cc artist, a debuffer, off heals, off tank, dps, snaring, etc etc.. Again, in my opinion having mobs lose agro by running 100 feet away from them is.. ummmmm boring.. I loved it in EQ that you had to watch out for trains, and if you got on the agro list, you better either zone out, or find a way to wipe the agro memory.. It was those things that made adventuring interesting..
I enjoy the diverse roles in EQ as well. However, I wanted to get away from the forces grouping aspect. But give the players incentives to group. I think it should be easier to level in a group rather than solo play. You basically said wow's class design is lazy which I agree 100%. I can also agree to a certain extent that the trinity design is lazy as well. Here is a list of each role of the classes fulfill. To a certain extent some classes are more support oriented rather than others.
Primary RoleSecondary Role
Tank 1 Crowd control
Tank 2 Battle Field Management - Controls the flow of the battle field
Tank 3 Hybrid - Has ample oppertunity of all forms of tanking but can not master in one
Melee DPS 1 Crowd control
Melee DPS 2 De-buffer
Melee DPS 3 Buffer
Caster DPS 1 Defensive Magic
Caster DPS 2 Crowd Control/AoE
Caster DPS 3 De-buffer
Healer 1 Buffer
Healer 2 Crowd Control
Healer 3 Hybrid - Half de-buffer, half buffer
Ranged DPS Crowd Control
As you can see you the support roles are more evident in the casters classes. If I did begin to design a new archetype for support all of those secondary roles would disperse. When including the support archetype, none of the trinity classes should have much access to any support abilities. Maybe a few to complement the support classes. To me, it makes the classes more interesting when you have two roles. Each role complements the class as well as groups. If I took away the secondary roles to this class list, it would take away an extra dynamic of strategy. The design I currently have rewards skilled players. Many of you mentioned that a lot of players will jus focus in one role and ignore the other. That will absolutely indicate a bad player because the design is to entice the player to use the class at it's full potential.
Actually I just had a reveletion as I was typing this. Technically I don't have to omit secondary roles if I add a support archetype. The three main support classes would be very distinct in their roles.
Support Class 1 would focus in CC with a secondary role of minor dps
Support Class 2 would focus on buffing with a secondary role of minor healing
Support Class 3 would focus on de-buffing with a secondary role of possible off tanking.
Basically in the support archetype, the support classes secondary roles reflect upon the trinity in a low form to balance out the support classes. This could make this more interesting. I could change the secondary role to some classes on that list such as area of effect. Some would have to take more thinking than others. All in all, primary roles are your main role and secondary roles are a perk which can offer extra help / support in group play and in solo play. So what does everyone think? Support classes with a secondary role to make the class more dynamic and interesting? Or four archetypes with only one primary role?
*Danm, after posting that chart doesn't look good at all lol*
Your list is very similar to what was possible when using the DAoC character system. Not sure if you ever played it but I think it was one of the better ways to handle character progression.
Good stuff though. I enjoy all of the open creativity and am very interested in your project. I like the idea of the tank/CC class. Now that sounds like it would be something else that I could get into. Tanking by itself in many games is something that takes talent, add CC on top of that and you have the workings of a class that is very hard to master but when you do people will be knocking your door down to group when you log on.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
Your list is very similar to what was possible when using the DAoC character system. Not sure if you ever played it but I think it was one of the better ways to handle character progression.
Good stuff though. I enjoy all of the open creativity and am very interested in your project. I like the idea of the tank/CC class. Now that sounds like it would be something else that I could get into. Tanking by itself in many games is something that takes talent, add CC on top of that and you have the workings of a class that is very hard to master but when you do people will be knocking your door down to group when you log on.
Nah, never played DAoC. Read alot of stuff. What did you think of adding in a new support archetype? Do you think it would be a good design to allow the support classes to delve into the three other archetypes as minor roles? I am still on the fence about adding this new support archetype in. However, I am scared it would take away from the centralized theme of the classes overall and take a hit on in-depth class design/mechanics.
That would really depend on your overall goal with the game design I think. From what I have seen you essentially want all of your classes to be hybrids. You could really still throw the support classes in there and still maintain that idea. The only difference is you would have to throw them a bone so that they benefit in some way by having the support aspects as a primary skill set.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
That would really depend on your overall goal with the game design I think. From what I have seen you essentially want all of your classes to be hybrids. You could really still throw the support classes in there and still maintain that idea. The only difference is you would have to throw them a bone so that they benefit in some way by having the support aspects as a primary skill set.
Technically you could say the classes are hybrids. Moreso hybrids of the trinity class design with various support roles. However, thinkin more about this aspect it seems that its a seesaw effect. I see them working one moment well and would add way more flavor but then again, there is this hidden blockade to stop me from seeing it at full circle. Like for instance, I don't know how the support classes are complementary to the combat mechanics.
Although I never pick a support class as my main usually my primary alt is a healer/buffer. It gives me a backup when a group needs a healer instead of whatever class my main happens to be and also it's a nice change of pace to play a support class now and then. I try to keep my primary alt within 5 or so levels of my main so it is interchangable with my main character when it comes to groups. This makes me a lot more versitile than most people are when it comes to grouping in general.
Although I never pick a support class as my main usually my primary alt is a healer/buffer. It gives me a backup when a group needs a healer instead of whatever class my main happens to be and also it's a nice change of pace to play a support class now and then. I try to keep my primary alt within 5 or so levels of my main so it is interchangable with my main character when it comes to groups. This makes me a lot more versitile than most people are when it comes to grouping in general.
Bren
Interesting. Ive always loved when players where like well you know what I have this alt that I can log onto to help my group for this round of pulls! Would you enjoy it more if the two roles you played where implemented in one class rather than two?
I always thought playing a pure support class would be very interesting and different. In my mind, it would generally be suppling buffs and debuffs respectively, which is a great departure from the Trinity to an extent. However, in a PvP situation, especially in 1v1, I would have to question the effectiveness of said class, unless, of course, their Buff/DeBuff abilities were so grueling that they would otherwise cripple their opponent. I would also have to wonder how exactly the class would deal any sort of damage outside of an auto attack.
don't forget miners/ collectors and crafters are also support XD, pure supports are not really good for reasons like the need to have a group to do even a simple travel since you would be bound to just root/sleep and auto attack plus some games love to gives certain immunity to monsters,
I can see support in heavy powered guilds and all, hell sometimes they get all guild to make uber craters to equip his players, I can see pure support classes there in a random party or player I don't think so
... I guess if one were to argue symantics, all classes are "support" classes in a group setting... You know, since each member is... Supporting... Yeah, you get it.
I suppose perhaps players enjoy a more solidified idea of what they're to be doing in a group?
Although I never pick a support class as my main usually my primary alt is a healer/buffer. It gives me a backup when a group needs a healer instead of whatever class my main happens to be and also it's a nice change of pace to play a support class now and then. I try to keep my primary alt within 5 or so levels of my main so it is interchangable with my main character when it comes to groups. This makes me a lot more versitile than most people are when it comes to grouping in general.
Bren
Interesting. Ive always loved when players where like well you know what I have this alt that I can log onto to help my group for this round of pulls! Would you enjoy it more if the two roles you played where implemented in one class rather than two?
No, Actually I like the fact that it's two seperate characters. MMO's can get rather tedious if you play the same role all of the time. Having two very distict characters with two very differing play styles gives me some variety.
That's another idea I hadn't thought of. Distinct classes all cause distinct play styles and will have a differing game experience. I eventually make one class type in every MMO. More options is always good.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
This has been an awesome thread and gave me much revelation of how many players actually do want to play support classes. I never minded support classes. I also agree with everyone else that there should be a variety of classes to choose from which are very distinct from each other in roles and playability. This thread amoung others convinced me that support classes need a comeback and I hope I can do just that.
As you support player enthusiasts, what kind of cool support abilities would you like to see? Also, what made support classes fun or frustrating?
I *do* play a support class--Red Mage in FFXI. It's not really a "pure" support class; it can do healing fairly well, for one. In the right situations it can tank and even DPS, though that's pretty rare, and it's known for being a good soloer at higher levels. It's main use in parties, however is to Refresh (restore MPs) and debuff. I have given thought to levelling Bard, however, and that *is* a pure support class--it does buffing and debuffing and little else, but it does them so well that a Bard is always in very high demand.
I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
Interesting, I was thinking the same as well. Since I have 3 of every archetype I was considering this scenario.
Support Class 1"Caster"
Primary Role: Crowd Control
Secondary Role: Minor Dps
Support Class 2 "Caster"
Primary Role: Buffer
Secondary Role: Minor Healing
Support Class 3"Melee"
Primary Role: De-buffer
Secondary Role: Off tank
What do you think? Of course all support classes will get some damage abilities, just Support class one will have a better selection.
I think this setup works with my game design. The healer/de-buffer would be an interesting idea. But I have an idea where the two roles of the support class 3 actually complement each other.
Originally posted by scuubeedoo I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
FFXI has lots of hybrid classes. Warrior can tank, but mostly it DPSes (but most tanks will have it as subjob). Thief DPSes and pulls and does crowd control. Corsair buffs and does ranged DPS (and gets to play blackjack trying to juice the buffs--go bust and the buff disappears and you can't cast for a short time). Ninja was desiged to be a puller, but mostly it tanks, and is everybody's favorite subjob when they're soloing or afraid the tank won't hold hate. Summoner can heal, DPS, and is surprisingly good at pulling, and can do some interesting buffs.
I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
Interesting, I was thinking the same as well. Since I have 3 of every archetype I was considering this scenario.
Support Class 1"Caster"
Primary Role: Crowd Control
Secondary Role: Minor Dps
Support Class 2 "Caster"
Primary Role: Buffer
Secondary Role: Minor Healing
Support Class 3"Melee"
Primary Role: De-buffer
Secondary Role: Off tank
What do you think? Of course all support classes will get some damage abilities, just Support class one will have a better selection.
I think this setup works with my game design. The healer/de-buffer would be an interesting idea. But I have an idea where the two roles of the support class 3 actually complement each other.
Original EQ1 was just like that.. Some games are still.. sorta.. Problem is the days of the hybrid class is dying.. You get to games like WoW for example and hybrid would NEVER be accepted in raids and most dungeons.. We all know that hybrids are a jack of all trades type of class.. normally excell in solo'ing or small groups.. In WoW again for example you wish to join a 10 man raid and you come as a true hybrid class.. Because of that your skills at either "healing, tanking or dps" are NOT up to par to a pure class, so you must go away.. When you have raids and dungeons that hard cap your group limit, you pretty much force those groups to "maximize" their opportunity..
Games like WoW backed themselves into a corner with class distinction, where people have to join a group as primary healer, primary tank or pure dps.. TRUE Hybrids are not welcome.. If Blizzard would redesign their raid hard caps similar to EQ1, then hybrids would be welcome at any time, but I don't see WoW changing their raid mechanics.. So we are stuck forever with pure tank, pure heals and pure dps.. (all dps must be balanced) Classes that used to be hybrids are slowly being converted to pure one, or the other and no room for in the middle..
I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
Interesting, I was thinking the same as well. Since I have 3 of every archetype I was considering this scenario.
Support Class 1"Caster"
Primary Role: Crowd Control
Secondary Role: Minor Dps
Support Class 2 "Caster"
Primary Role: Buffer
Secondary Role: Minor Healing
Support Class 3"Melee"
Primary Role: De-buffer
Secondary Role: Off tank
What do you think? Of course all support classes will get some damage abilities, just Support class one will have a better selection.
I think this setup works with my game design. The healer/de-buffer would be an interesting idea. But I have an idea where the two roles of the support class 3 actually complement each other.
Original EQ1 was just like that.. Some games are still.. sorta.. Problem is the days of the hybrid class is dying.. You get to games like WoW for example and hybrid would NEVER be accepted in raids and most dungeons.. We all know that hybrids are a jack of all trades type of class.. normally excell in solo'ing or small groups.. In WoW again for example you wish to join a 10 man raid and you come as a true hybrid class.. Because of that your skills at either "healing, tanking or dps" are NOT up to par to a pure class, so you must go away.. When you have raids and dungeons that hard cap your group limit, you pretty much force those groups to "maximize" their opportunity..
Games like WoW backed themselves into a corner with class distinction, where people have to join a group as primary healer, primary tank or pure dps.. TRUE Hybrids are not welcome.. If Blizzard would redesign their raid hard caps similar to EQ1, then hybrids would be welcome at any time, but I don't see WoW changing their raid mechanics.. So we are stuck forever with pure tank, pure heals and pure dps.. (all dps must be balanced) Classes that used to be hybrids are slowly being converted to pure one, or the other and no room for in the middle..
Yes, I agree. And you've noticed some of the EQ philosophy I have put in there eh I have noticed this thrend of the support archetype dying. I think for a good design of support classes is what I have above. They have to be hybrids to a certain extent. It's funny I have always thought hybrids make bad class design. I have noticed if you do hybrids correctly, you can make a very interesting class design.
The best way to implement this is to stray away from overlaping the trinity into one class. However, sometimes you have to do it that way to provide more variety. But what developers don't not comprehend is simply how to balance out hyrbids. If a primary role is a healer and their secondary role is damage, their damage can not even be conisdered to do on par as a pure dps. (We see this in wow for an example). That is absolutely horrid balancing. In my design all classes have a primary and secondary role. Primary being 70% and secondary being 30%. The secondary role should no way shape or form hinder the primary role. The secondary role is to add more intensity, strategy, in-depth, and fun. I hope others feel as if my philosophy works.
The EQ1 "Enchanter" is a perfect example of the 70% primary and 30% secondary support class.. I loved support classes like that or the "Bard" was another.. Bard was primary support and secondary tank/off tank.. Classes like that added so much flavor to each group and each encounter.. I so miss those days of group play dynamics and the art of kiting, reverse kiting, etc etc
The EQ1 "Enchanter" is a perfect example of the 70% primary and 30% secondary support class.. I loved support classes like that or the "Bard" was another.. Bard was primary support and secondary tank/off tank.. Classes like that added so much flavor to each group and each encounter.. I so miss those days of group play dynamics and the art of kiting, reverse kiting, etc etc
Yes it is. I loved the enchanter for clarity buffs =D. Anyways, I really have the passion for my mmo design because its only geared towards the old school gamers. Vanguard didn't live up to expectations simply on loss of investments. If I get my chance, my mmo hopefully will be your new mmo home. A game with exploration, challenge and community. I really believe there is going to be a very small chance that someone is going to make a game for a niche market. I really think the old school gamers market is out there and I want to take it!
You must watch on overspecialization of those subtypes of support class. If you make those subtypes overspecialized then you will limit the gameplay possibilities for players.
Support classes are made for group play. This may be substituded by mercs or summons but if you don't intend to do them (balance problems for example) you need to make double sure that almost every group of players would want to hire every supporter (unless they got the same type of player already in). Playing a support class that is not highly wanted into group play is a kick in the nuts for team players. I think it is better even for a group to have more incentive to hire a supporter over any othe archetype. This is to balance the drawback of inability for solo play of support class archetype.
This isn't usually in effect in most MMO's. A group made from a tank, dps and healer would be ok in most enviroments when not grosly overlevelled. A support class is usually just a cherry on the top, or oil in the engine. It makes things a little bit easier or a little bit faster but the group could success without him.
If the game is group play orriented or there were some aspects added to the game system to allow soloing and not just by certain classes then Yes I would and have played support classes. I played FFXI for almost 3 years and I leveled a bard to 69 considered by many in the game the best support class. I also leveled a Redmage to 67 altough red mage could do more then just support it was realy a jack of most trades in the game depending on your sub class. With the thoughts you have in mind for your game it looks oddly similar to the style of game I have been looking for since the declining players of FFXI. I would suggest you look into and read about FFXI it was a largely successfull MMMORPG it has been out for about 7 years and held a pretty strong player base untill recent. I would also like to talk to you about game creation while it is not my profession it is something I would love to get into.
Comments
I voted no, even though I have played a few over the years.
When I start a new MMO, the first character class I try to choose is the one that is the most independent, the one that can do the most things on it's own. I like alts, and my choosing an independent class first, I can set up a type of sugar daddy for any alts that follow. Also, as I select those alts, I will first focus on classes that can do stuff that my previous characters cannot. The goal is that if my one character can't do everything (like, say, all types of crafting), then collectively, me and my alts will be able to. The goal, once again, is independence. While I enjoy interacting with others in an MMO, I utterly loathe being dependent on it.
I enjoy the diverse roles in EQ as well. However, I wanted to get away from the forces grouping aspect. But give the players incentives to group. I think it should be easier to level in a group rather than solo play. You basically said wow's class design is lazy which I agree 100%. I can also agree to a certain extent that the trinity design is lazy as well. Here is a list of each role of the classes fulfill. To a certain extent some classes are more support oriented rather than others.
Primary Role Secondary Role
Tank 1 Crowd control
Tank 2 Battle Field Management - Controls the flow of the battle field
Tank 3 Hybrid - Has ample oppertunity of all forms of tanking but can not master in one
Melee DPS 1 Crowd control
Melee DPS 2 De-buffer
Melee DPS 3 Buffer
Caster DPS 1 Defensive Magic
Caster DPS 2 Crowd Control/AoE
Caster DPS 3 De-buffer
Healer 1 Buffer
Healer 2 Crowd Control
Healer 3 Hybrid - Half de-buffer, half buffer
Ranged DPS Crowd Control
As you can see you the support roles are more evident in the casters classes. If I did begin to design a new archetype for support all of those secondary roles would disperse. When including the support archetype, none of the trinity classes should have much access to any support abilities. Maybe a few to complement the support classes. To me, it makes the classes more interesting when you have two roles. Each role complements the class as well as groups. If I took away the secondary roles to this class list, it would take away an extra dynamic of strategy. The design I currently have rewards skilled players. Many of you mentioned that a lot of players will jus focus in one role and ignore the other. That will absolutely indicate a bad player because the design is to entice the player to use the class at it's full potential.
Actually I just had a reveletion as I was typing this. Technically I don't have to omit secondary roles if I add a support archetype. The three main support classes would be very distinct in their roles.
Support Class 1 would focus in CC with a secondary role of minor dps
Support Class 2 would focus on buffing with a secondary role of minor healing
Support Class 3 would focus on de-buffing with a secondary role of possible off tanking.
Basically in the support archetype, the support classes secondary roles reflect upon the trinity in a low form to balance out the support classes. This could make this more interesting. I could change the secondary role to some classes on that list such as area of effect. Some would have to take more thinking than others. All in all, primary roles are your main role and secondary roles are a perk which can offer extra help / support in group play and in solo play. So what does everyone think? Support classes with a secondary role to make the class more dynamic and interesting? Or four archetypes with only one primary role?
*Danm, after posting that chart doesn't look good at all lol*
I dont like support classes, I always play the all-out-war chars, either the glass cannon nuker or the fast sustained dpser.
Your list is very similar to what was possible when using the DAoC character system. Not sure if you ever played it but I think it was one of the better ways to handle character progression.
Good stuff though. I enjoy all of the open creativity and am very interested in your project. I like the idea of the tank/CC class. Now that sounds like it would be something else that I could get into. Tanking by itself in many games is something that takes talent, add CC on top of that and you have the workings of a class that is very hard to master but when you do people will be knocking your door down to group when you log on.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
Nah, never played DAoC. Read alot of stuff. What did you think of adding in a new support archetype? Do you think it would be a good design to allow the support classes to delve into the three other archetypes as minor roles? I am still on the fence about adding this new support archetype in. However, I am scared it would take away from the centralized theme of the classes overall and take a hit on in-depth class design/mechanics.
That would really depend on your overall goal with the game design I think. From what I have seen you essentially want all of your classes to be hybrids. You could really still throw the support classes in there and still maintain that idea. The only difference is you would have to throw them a bone so that they benefit in some way by having the support aspects as a primary skill set.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
Technically you could say the classes are hybrids. Moreso hybrids of the trinity class design with various support roles. However, thinkin more about this aspect it seems that its a seesaw effect. I see them working one moment well and would add way more flavor but then again, there is this hidden blockade to stop me from seeing it at full circle. Like for instance, I don't know how the support classes are complementary to the combat mechanics.
Although I never pick a support class as my main usually my primary alt is a healer/buffer. It gives me a backup when a group needs a healer instead of whatever class my main happens to be and also it's a nice change of pace to play a support class now and then. I try to keep my primary alt within 5 or so levels of my main so it is interchangable with my main character when it comes to groups. This makes me a lot more versitile than most people are when it comes to grouping in general.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Interesting. Ive always loved when players where like well you know what I have this alt that I can log onto to help my group for this round of pulls! Would you enjoy it more if the two roles you played where implemented in one class rather than two?
I always thought playing a pure support class would be very interesting and different. In my mind, it would generally be suppling buffs and debuffs respectively, which is a great departure from the Trinity to an extent. However, in a PvP situation, especially in 1v1, I would have to question the effectiveness of said class, unless, of course, their Buff/DeBuff abilities were so grueling that they would otherwise cripple their opponent. I would also have to wonder how exactly the class would deal any sort of damage outside of an auto attack.
Otherwise I would definitely try one out.
don't forget miners/ collectors and crafters are also support XD, pure supports are not really good for reasons like the need to have a group to do even a simple travel since you would be bound to just root/sleep and auto attack plus some games love to gives certain immunity to monsters,
I can see support in heavy powered guilds and all, hell sometimes they get all guild to make uber craters to equip his players, I can see pure support classes there in a random party or player I don't think so
... I guess if one were to argue symantics, all classes are "support" classes in a group setting... You know, since each member is... Supporting... Yeah, you get it.
I suppose perhaps players enjoy a more solidified idea of what they're to be doing in a group?
Hmm.
No, Actually I like the fact that it's two seperate characters. MMO's can get rather tedious if you play the same role all of the time. Having two very distict characters with two very differing play styles gives me some variety.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
That's another idea I hadn't thought of. Distinct classes all cause distinct play styles and will have a differing game experience. I eventually make one class type in every MMO. More options is always good.
It's gotten to the point where some MMOs have been reduced to little more than success dispensers. Don't think. Don't challenge yourself. Do as little as possible... but still be rewarded for it. Yeah.. *that's* fun.
-- WSIMike
This has been an awesome thread and gave me much revelation of how many players actually do want to play support classes. I never minded support classes. I also agree with everyone else that there should be a variety of classes to choose from which are very distinct from each other in roles and playability. This thread amoung others convinced me that support classes need a comeback and I hope I can do just that.
As you support player enthusiasts, what kind of cool support abilities would you like to see? Also, what made support classes fun or frustrating?
I *do* play a support class--Red Mage in FFXI. It's not really a "pure" support class; it can do healing fairly well, for one. In the right situations it can tank and even DPS, though that's pretty rare, and it's known for being a good soloer at higher levels. It's main use in parties, however is to Refresh (restore MPs) and debuff. I have given thought to levelling Bard, however, and that *is* a pure support class--it does buffing and debuffing and little else, but it does them so well that a Bard is always in very high demand.
I like healer/debuffer, hybrids. It's kinda rare to find such a class in MMOs though.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Interesting, I was thinking the same as well. Since I have 3 of every archetype I was considering this scenario.
Support Class 1 "Caster"
Primary Role: Crowd Control
Secondary Role: Minor Dps
Support Class 2 "Caster"
Primary Role: Buffer
Secondary Role: Minor Healing
Support Class 3 "Melee"
Primary Role: De-buffer
Secondary Role: Off tank
What do you think? Of course all support classes will get some damage abilities, just Support class one will have a better selection.
I think this setup works with my game design. The healer/de-buffer would be an interesting idea. But I have an idea where the two roles of the support class 3 actually complement each other.
FFXI has lots of hybrid classes. Warrior can tank, but mostly it DPSes (but most tanks will have it as subjob). Thief DPSes and pulls and does crowd control. Corsair buffs and does ranged DPS (and gets to play blackjack trying to juice the buffs--go bust and the buff disappears and you can't cast for a short time). Ninja was desiged to be a puller, but mostly it tanks, and is everybody's favorite subjob when they're soloing or afraid the tank won't hold hate. Summoner can heal, DPS, and is surprisingly good at pulling, and can do some interesting buffs.
Original EQ1 was just like that.. Some games are still.. sorta.. Problem is the days of the hybrid class is dying.. You get to games like WoW for example and hybrid would NEVER be accepted in raids and most dungeons.. We all know that hybrids are a jack of all trades type of class.. normally excell in solo'ing or small groups.. In WoW again for example you wish to join a 10 man raid and you come as a true hybrid class.. Because of that your skills at either "healing, tanking or dps" are NOT up to par to a pure class, so you must go away.. When you have raids and dungeons that hard cap your group limit, you pretty much force those groups to "maximize" their opportunity..
Games like WoW backed themselves into a corner with class distinction, where people have to join a group as primary healer, primary tank or pure dps.. TRUE Hybrids are not welcome.. If Blizzard would redesign their raid hard caps similar to EQ1, then hybrids would be welcome at any time, but I don't see WoW changing their raid mechanics.. So we are stuck forever with pure tank, pure heals and pure dps.. (all dps must be balanced)
Classes that used to be hybrids are slowly being converted to pure one, or the other and no room for in the middle..
Yes, I agree. And you've noticed some of the EQ philosophy I have put in there eh
I have noticed this thrend of the support archetype dying. I think for a good design of support classes is what I have above. They have to be hybrids to a certain extent. It's funny I have always thought hybrids make bad class design. I have noticed if you do hybrids correctly, you can make a very interesting class design.
The best way to implement this is to stray away from overlaping the trinity into one class. However, sometimes you have to do it that way to provide more variety. But what developers don't not comprehend is simply how to balance out hyrbids. If a primary role is a healer and their secondary role is damage, their damage can not even be conisdered to do on par as a pure dps. (We see this in wow for an example). That is absolutely horrid balancing. In my design all classes have a primary and secondary role. Primary being 70% and secondary being 30%. The secondary role should no way shape or form hinder the primary role. The secondary role is to add more intensity, strategy, in-depth, and fun. I hope others feel as if my philosophy works.
agreed Eronakis
The EQ1 "Enchanter" is a perfect example of the 70% primary and 30% secondary support class.. I loved support classes like that or the "Bard" was another.. Bard was primary support and secondary tank/off tank.. Classes like that added so much flavor to each group and each encounter.. I so miss those days of group play dynamics and the art of kiting, reverse kiting, etc etc
Yes it is. I loved the enchanter for clarity buffs =D. Anyways, I really have the passion for my mmo design because its only geared towards the old school gamers. Vanguard didn't live up to expectations simply on loss of investments. If I get my chance, my mmo hopefully will be your new mmo home. A game with exploration, challenge and community. I really believe there is going to be a very small chance that someone is going to make a game for a niche market. I really think the old school gamers market is out there and I want to take it!
You must watch on overspecialization of those subtypes of support class. If you make those subtypes overspecialized then you will limit the gameplay possibilities for players.
Support classes are made for group play. This may be substituded by mercs or summons but if you don't intend to do them (balance problems for example) you need to make double sure that almost every group of players would want to hire every supporter (unless they got the same type of player already in). Playing a support class that is not highly wanted into group play is a kick in the nuts for team players. I think it is better even for a group to have more incentive to hire a supporter over any othe archetype. This is to balance the drawback of inability for solo play of support class archetype.
This isn't usually in effect in most MMO's. A group made from a tank, dps and healer would be ok in most enviroments when not grosly overlevelled. A support class is usually just a cherry on the top, or oil in the engine. It makes things a little bit easier or a little bit faster but the group could success without him.
If the game is group play orriented or there were some aspects added to the game system to allow soloing and not just by certain classes then Yes I would and have played support classes. I played FFXI for almost 3 years and I leveled a bard to 69 considered by many in the game the best support class. I also leveled a Redmage to 67 altough red mage could do more then just support it was realy a jack of most trades in the game depending on your sub class. With the thoughts you have in mind for your game it looks oddly similar to the style of game I have been looking for since the declining players of FFXI. I would suggest you look into and read about FFXI it was a largely successfull MMMORPG it has been out for about 7 years and held a pretty strong player base untill recent. I would also like to talk to you about game creation while it is not my profession it is something I would love to get into.