So instead of having 55ish points in a tree, and allowing people to be a cookie cutter build and always have options on the last few talents...Everyone will have exactly the same thing.
COOL.
You act like everyone doesn't have the same build already. The +2% mana regen talents that are different from the person with +2% slow down on fire damage doesn't make a huge difference and just makes it frusterating to a lot of casual people who play.
The only way to know if this is good or bad is when you finally get to see the talent trees for each class. Without it, any argument in favor or against it is redundant. But i am sure you keyboard warriors know this and are just looking for a reason to have at each other (or boost your post count). So flame away
"It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"
Sigh, did you all read the post. You will get your 51 talents but those 20 fluff +1 dmg talents will be granted automatically, meaning all of your passive talents. It's like one of those +5% crit chance talents. You simply have to take it. You cannot choose to ignore it. So instead of clicking like mad when respecing you get them automatically
You are forced to spend 31 points because of the way the system works. You get all the bonuses of your specialisation. There doesn't seem to be a way around it. You can still have your hybrid specs at level 85 when the trees unlock at level 70. You just won't be able to use a hybrid spec while leveling. I would rather have some of my class defining skills early on so I won't die of boredom having 3 skills and gazillion +1 dmg +1def +1spell talents. Bloat of meaningless and must have talents is all over the place in the current build of the game. This change will not allow your to use a hybrid spec until level 70 but I see this as a a no-brainer trade-off for the overall improvement this will be for level 85 characters. It will also streamline the leveling experience.
Originally posted by VirusDancer
It is funny reading this thread again.
When you think of builds or go out there and look at build sites, what do you normally see?
PvP, Raid, Solo PvE, non-Raid party PvE, and a few others. They tend to be different.
Blizzard wants them to be the same.
Basically, the talent trees then, in their eyes, were meant to be subclasses, no?
They may as well just rename the talent trees as "kits" or "subclasses" at this point, no?
Take a look at the current popular builds out there:
Death Knight - 9 out of 10 have 15 or more points in a second tree. 1 out of 10 has points in all three trees.
Druid - 4 out of 10 have 15 or more points in a second tree. 0 out of 10 has points in all three trees.
Hunter - 3 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Mage - 5 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Paladin - 3 out of 10... and 8 out of 10...
Priest - 0 out of 10... and 0 out of 10...
Rogue - 8 out of 10... and 9 out of 10...
Shaman - 6 out of 10... and 0 out of 10...
Warlock - 3 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Warrior - 8 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
So all in all, um - was this the idea of a Priest or something?
Because pretty much everybody else is hitting that second and third tree to some extent.
This is because current trees require this. A hybrid spec is spending more than just 10 points in a second tree. A spec looking like 51/10/0 is not a hybrid spec. You just go for one of those +5% more talents. A hybrid spec is spending roughly the same amount of talent points in two trees. My resto druid always puts some points into the balance tree, the first two-three tiers. This is not a hybrid spec. This is just because there were RESTO talents in there, same as they were feral,balance talents in the resto tree. I do not see this as a choice but throwing around talents in different trees. This is true for most classes.
Priests used to always spend talents points in two trees because of meditation. It was a bad design and it was definitely not a hybrid spec. You just went for +mana regen that was a must-have not a choice. A holy priest who has more mana regen because of meditation doesn't play differently. It's a filler must have talent which forced people into spending points into a second tree. This is similar to a lot of trees out there.
If Blizz does go ahead and implement this it will kill the remaining fun i have in the game I play a lock mainly and hybrid demo/destro was my prefered spec during ulduar (had a large break after till icc) swapping/changing specs finding what works running diff hybrid specs for pvp is something i found enjoyable.
I have found since i have been back everyone makes me run in deep demo for demonic pact, these days I rarely ever get to go in as afflic unless two locks are in raid, I know blizz has already half killed hybrid specs since classic anyway with the talent changes such as holy/ret pally pvp hybrid. I highly doubt this will in anyway make chars more unique it seems like another step in the direction of making a world of clones.
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
Hybrid classes died in burning crusade. This change doesn't really kill the ability to spend points in more than one tree except for the first 50 levels or so of gameplay. I don't understand why blizzard is forcing players to spend the first 31 points in a certain way and don't agree with the change, but overall it won't change much and it doens't force classes to be the same in any way I can tell.
So why have 10 classes if only 6 of them can fulfill their role in a group? I just don't understand the complaints that dps can all get the job done or any tank can be used in a group and any healer can keep that tank alive. All the classes have disctictive features and feels of their own, so they all have something to offer various playstyles. Have we played so many games that have classes that are less than desirable that it has taught us to view imbalance as some positive feature that ? I just don't follow the logic here that balanced classes is a bad thing. I don't want to go back to a system that relies on giving a near usless class a buff that is so important it warrents a group invite just to have a buff.
The only way to know if this is good or bad is when you finally get to see the talent trees for each class. Without it, any argument in favor or against it is redundant. But i am sure you keyboard warriors know this and are just looking for a reason to have at each other (or boost your post count). So flame away
I agree completely. We really don't know until we see the talent trees. But this part is all about endgame.
Do you agree that even if the endgame remains the same that this change is awesome for leveling characters? Enhancement shamen getting stormstrike at lvl 10? Feral druids getting Maim? Doesn't that go a long way to make your character more like you decide to play him. Again, back to feral druids. If you want to play a feral druid, until lvl 20ish, you are still casting spells like a balance druid
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
TY for proving my point I think the highlight statement by you verifies that.. No different then ALL Tanks need to AOE taunt and do this and do that.. or ALL dps need to the same damage.. etc etc... There are no 10 unique classes, or 30 like you wish to believe..
I'm old school mmo and NO .. not all dps should be doing the same damage.. and NO, not all healers should be doing the same healing. and NO, not all tanks can tank the same.. Good luck with your game.. LOL
I don't see why people would complain about this change. Most the talents they will be getting rid of are simple passive talents or talents every single person uses. Keep the talent trees less bloated with crap and leave us with the more interesting and active ability talents.
This is because current trees require this. A hybrid spec is spending more than just 10 points in a second tree. A spec looking like 51/10/0 is not a hybrid spec. You just go for one of those +5% more talents. A hybrid spec is spending roughly the same amount of talent points in two trees. My resto druid always puts some points into the balance tree, the first two-three tiers. This is not a hybrid spec. This is just because there were RESTO talents in there, same as they were feral,balance talents in the resto tree. I do not see this as a choice but throwing around talents in different trees. This is true for most classes.
Did not say anything about hybrids in that post. Not sure what you are talking about there.
Based on what I read, you are only getting the Mastery Passive buffs in the tree you specialize in. Thus, you will not get those passive buffs in another tree.
Hence the reason for my post, being that Priests are pretty much the only class that does not take 15 pts or more in another tree or take pts from all three trees.
If you are losing the passive (currently active) talents, who would want this other than Priests?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I don't see why people would complain about this change. Most the talents they will be getting rid of are simple passive talents or talents every single person uses. Keep the talent trees less bloated with crap and leave us with the more interesting and active ability talents.
How does this make any sense?
Originally posted by Skeeterxi
I don't see why people would complain about this change. They are not removing any talents, just making them standard when you pick a tree mastery. So in the end, we will have the same thing we did before. Sounds like a great idea to put all this work into doing nothing.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Thats kind of the point. These redundant talents that just give small passive bonuses that every one uses and cutting them out to make talent trees more streamlined makes sense, even if you get the bonuses in other ways. Theres no need to have talent trees bloated with a bunch of crap. More for the sake of more isn't always the best. This change happened very fast and will already be pushed out in the next beta build, its not pushing the expansion back or taking a ton of development time.
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
TY for proving my point I think the highlight statement by you verifies that.. No different then ALL Tanks need to AOE taunt and do this and do that.. or ALL dps need to the same damage.. etc etc... There are no 10 unique classes, or 30 like you wish to believe..
I'm old school mmo and NO .. not all dps should be doing the same damage.. and NO, not all healers should be doing the same healing. and NO, not all tanks can tank the same.. Good luck with your game.. LOL
It is possible to have classes with similar dps as well as healers and tanks that can perform their jobs and still have them all do it with enough different abilities and skills that they are different.
What is the benefit of having dps class that does far less dps than other dps classes? You say they shouldn't so what is the reason they shouldn't? Are people going to be excited after they spend time leveling their character only to find out they are less desirable, because they do much less dps.... by design?
What you are pointing to as good design is exactly the type of problem people have complained and left many other mmos over.
Thats kind of the point. These redundant talents that just give small passive bonuses that every one uses and cutting them out to make talent trees more streamlined makes sense, even if you get the bonuses in other ways. Theres no need to have talent trees bloated with a bunch of crap. More for the sake of more isn't always the best. This change happened very fast and will already be pushed out in the next beta build, its not pushing the expansion back or taking a ton of development time.
The issue at hand though is "mastery" and it applying to the first tree you pick - thus, no way for you to get those bonuses/abilities that you would have been able to get from another tree currently - which is why you generally went into the other tree.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I mean face it, Blizzard has all but admitted that WoW should have been WC4. It is a game lobby game. Soon it will be no different than logging into any of the FPS/TPS/RTS game lobby games - you pick your class/kit - give them a name...tada.
At which point, it would beg the question why is anybody paying a sub for it?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
The only people I see complain about class abilities are those people that envy everyone else that is different.. They tank better then me, They dps more then I do.. They heal more then I do.. etc etc.. I heard the same complaints and whining back in my EQ1 days it was silly.. People complaining because a wizzard did more direct damage, or shamans had better heals.. It didn't matter that your class had class abilites others didn't, because people often ignored everything that made them special.. Every mmo I've ever played is littered with people with the mentality of what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too.... People in general can't stand that others have what they don't, while disgarding everything they have that others don't.. SELFISHNESS runs rampid in mmos.. in my opinion.
I come from a genre that appreciates true character class specialization and uniqueness.. I LOVED the old EQ1 days being a druid.. Did I heal as good as a cleric?. oh hell no.. Did I dot as good as a shaman?. oh hell no.. But I could snare and kite, and could track and port.. I did not care that my dps was less then a wizzie or a mage, I had my OWN specialities.. However, EQ changed because of whiners that always worried about what other classes have, that they didn't.. Was everything perfect in EQ1? NO. and the more they tried to appease the whiners, the more things got messed up.. I come from that genre that wants "SUPPORT" classes, hybrid classes and unique skills and abilities..
What confuses me is how people can't see what Bliz is doing.. People defend them saying things like , "dps classes are different".. No, they're not .. really.. So a Mage lays down a blizzard, and a Hunter tosses out a volley, and a Warlock plops down a firestorm...... Guess what? They are all AOE spell damage with the intent that all will do roughly the same dps.. The only true differences after all is said and done is the graphics.. Same with heals and tanking.. So YES.. I will agree with some that there are 30 different "GRAPHIC" classes, but I'll stick with my opinion that there are only 3 roles anymore... 4 if you want to count PvP as a seperate class role..
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
TY for proving my point I think the highlight statement by you verifies that.. No different then ALL Tanks need to AOE taunt and do this and do that.. or ALL dps need to the same damage.. etc etc... There are no 10 unique classes, or 30 like you wish to believe..
I'm old school mmo and NO .. not all dps should be doing the same damage.. and NO, not all healers should be doing the same healing. and NO, not all tanks can tank the same.. Good luck with your game.. LOL
It is possible to have classes with similar dps as well as healers and tanks that can perform their jobs and still have them all do it with enough different abilities and skills that they are different.
What is the benefit of having dps class that does far less dps than other dps classes? You say they shouldn't so what is the reason they shouldn't? Are people going to be excited after they spend time leveling their character only to find out they are less desirable, because they do much less dps.... by design?
What you are pointing to as good design is exactly the type of problem people have complained and left many other mmos over.
He obviously didn't think about this very much. I mean.. lets say you have a pally healer who is great at tank healing, but terrible at group healing. So you get to an encounter that has a lot of raid damage. What do you do? Ask your pally healer who has been with you from the beginning to drop out of the group so you can bring a druid who is better at raid healing?
This is exactly what went wrong at the end of TBC. Pally tanks were far superiour at multi-mob pulls, so the other 3 tanks got left behind.
The classes are different enough to make them interesting, but the deciding issue of who you bring is the better player, not a particular class. You dont' bring a bad player just becasue he rolled a certain class, while you leave a good player behind because he happened to not have the right class for this boss.
And LOL at your DPS comment. If one class did significantly more DPS than other dps classes, who in their right mind would play the gimped classes? Do you really want a raid with 3 pally tanks, 19 assassination rogues and 3 druid healers? That is what would happen if there was a best tank, best dps and best healer.
So tell me about your game that is better, Mr. Old schooler? Trust me, I know the opposite. I played UO back when EVERY SINGLE PERSON who pvp'd was a mage who carried a halbard. I know exactly what happens when one 'class' is better than the rest. Everyone plays it. it didn't work in UO and they fixed it. It doesn't work in any game.
I mean face it, Blizzard has all but admitted that WoW should have been WC4. It is a game lobby game. Soon it will be no different than logging into any of the FPS/TPS/RTS game lobby games - you pick your class/kit - give them a name...tada.
At which point, it would beg the question why is anybody paying a sub for it?
I could be wrong but it seems you got a gripe with Blizzard. Why would you care if other people pay a sub for it, not your money. If you don't like the game just don't play it dude. Posting on the games forum arguing and complaining isn't gonna get you no where. Some times you just gotta let go and move on.
I mean face it, Blizzard has all but admitted that WoW should have been WC4. It is a game lobby game. Soon it will be no different than logging into any of the FPS/TPS/RTS game lobby games - you pick your class/kit - give them a name...tada.
At which point, it would beg the question why is anybody paying a sub for it?
I could be wrong but it seems you got a gripe with Blizzard. Why would you care if other people pay a sub for it, not your money. If you don't like the game just don't play it dude. Posting on the games forum arguing and complaining isn't gonna get you no where. Some times you just gotta let go and move on.
I have a gripe with what Blizzard has been doing to the game. Admittedly, I only have four 80s and a 47; so I'm not hardcore (Hell, in this day and age of ez-mode they offer, I'm not even casual) by any means... but I like how you completely avoided what I said. There is little to deny that is what Blizzard has been doing since BC.
As to why would I care if people pay? It was about caring why they would charge.
Do you pay to play FPS/TPS/RTS games in game lobbies? Then why should you pay to play WoW if it continues like this?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
TY for proving my point I think the highlight statement by you verifies that.. No different then ALL Tanks need to AOE taunt and do this and do that.. or ALL dps need to the same damage.. etc etc... There are no 10 unique classes, or 30 like you wish to believe..
I'm old school mmo and NO .. not all dps should be doing the same damage.. and NO, not all healers should be doing the same healing. and NO, not all tanks can tank the same.. Good luck with your game.. LOL
It is possible to have classes with similar dps as well as healers and tanks that can perform their jobs and still have them all do it with enough different abilities and skills that they are different.
What is the benefit of having dps class that does far less dps than other dps classes? You say they shouldn't so what is the reason they shouldn't? Are people going to be excited after they spend time leveling their character only to find out they are less desirable, because they do much less dps.... by design?
What you are pointing to as good design is exactly the type of problem people have complained and left many other mmos over.
He obviously didn't think about this very much. I mean.. lets say you have a pally healer who is great at tank healing, but terrible at group healing. So you get to an encounter that has a lot of raid damage. What do you do? Ask your pally healer who has been with you from the beginning to drop out of the group so you can bring a druid who is better at raid healing?
This is exactly what went wrong at the end of TBC. Pally tanks were far superiour at multi-mob pulls, so the other 3 tanks got left behind.
The classes are different enough to make them interesting, but the deciding issue of who you bring is the better player, not a particular class. You dont' bring a bad player just becasue he rolled a certain class, while you leave a good player behind because he happened to not have the right class for this boss.
And LOL at your DPS comment. If one class did significantly more DPS than other dps classes, who in their right mind would play the gimped classes? Do you really want a raid with 3 pally tanks, 19 assassination rogues and 3 druid healers? That is what would happen if there was a best tank, best dps and best healer.
So tell me about your game that is better, Mr. Old schooler? Trust me, I know the opposite. I played UO back when EVERY SINGLE PERSON who pvp'd was a mage who carried a halbard. I know exactly what happens when one 'class' is better than the rest. Everyone plays it. it didn't work in UO and they fixed it. It doesn't work in any game.
Again.. TY for proving my point to a T.. you want all dps, tank and healers to be exactly like every other dps, tank and healer.. As for your pally tank comparison.. YES a Pally tank is better at AOE mobs, and Warriors are superior on single target mobs..So instead of having 2 tanking styles with 2 different approaches to a fight.. Everyone whined to dumb down the game to AOEfest.. Come Cataclysm all tanks will be able to single or AOE tank in general.. BORING.. Same with healing and dps. So between all the class envy whining and lazy programing, Blizzard brings to you 3 basic do it all roles.. Tank, Dps and Heals.. Just like 90% of all fights are now AOEfest.. TY for the wide variety of combat mechanics.. (that was sarcasm to Bliz, fyi)
Who needs 10 alts anymore.. Soon everyone will be like a Pally.. you can choose to Heal, Tank or Dps all with one toon.. All you need to do is switch specs.. HELL, Blizz even done away with having 3 different sets of Plate armor.. In Cataclysm all 3 specs will use the same plate.. TY for options and variety (more sarcasm to blizzard)..
"Blizz even done away with having 3 different sets of Plate armor.. In Cataclysm all 3 specs will use the same plate.. TY for options and variety (more sarcasm to blizzard).."
No they didnt, and no they wont.
Tanks will have plate with avoidance stats like parry, dodge, etc.
DPS will have plate with damage stats like haste, crit, etc.
Healers will have plate with intellect, haste, crit, etc.
Thats three different types, for the three different specs. I can only assume you're talking about them removing the defense, and spellpower stats, but that doesnt mean a prot pally will choose INT over avoidance ever. If they do, they dont know what theyre doing.
Also, the new dungeons wont be an aoe fest. You will have to CC many, if not all pulls and even kite in some cases. I put this link in another thread, but I'll post it here as well. Lots of CC needed, and very little aoe used. More strategy, less faceroll. Lets all hope it stays this way.
Comments
You act like everyone doesn't have the same build already. The +2% mana regen talents that are different from the person with +2% slow down on fire damage doesn't make a huge difference and just makes it frusterating to a lot of casual people who play.
edit: hit post to soon.
It is funny reading this thread again.
When you think of builds or go out there and look at build sites, what do you normally see?
PvP, Raid, Solo PvE, non-Raid party PvE, and a few others. They tend to be different.
Blizzard wants them to be the same.
Basically, the talent trees then, in their eyes, were meant to be subclasses, no?
They may as well just rename the talent trees as "kits" or "subclasses" at this point, no?
Take a look at the current popular builds out there:
Death Knight - 9 out of 10 have 15 or more points in a second tree. 1 out of 10 has points in all three trees.
Druid - 4 out of 10 have 15 or more points in a second tree. 0 out of 10 has points in all three trees.
Hunter - 3 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Mage - 5 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Paladin - 3 out of 10... and 8 out of 10...
Priest - 0 out of 10... and 0 out of 10...
Rogue - 8 out of 10... and 9 out of 10...
Shaman - 6 out of 10... and 0 out of 10...
Warlock - 3 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
Warrior - 8 out of 10... and 5 out of 10...
So all in all, um - was this the idea of a Priest or something?
Because pretty much everybody else is hitting that second and third tree to some extent.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The only way to know if this is good or bad is when you finally get to see the talent trees for each class. Without it, any argument in favor or against it is redundant. But i am sure you keyboard warriors know this and are just looking for a reason to have at each other (or boost your post count). So flame away
"It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"
Sigh, did you all read the post. You will get your 51 talents but those 20 fluff +1 dmg talents will be granted automatically, meaning all of your passive talents. It's like one of those +5% crit chance talents. You simply have to take it. You cannot choose to ignore it. So instead of clicking like mad when respecing you get them automatically
You are forced to spend 31 points because of the way the system works. You get all the bonuses of your specialisation. There doesn't seem to be a way around it. You can still have your hybrid specs at level 85 when the trees unlock at level 70. You just won't be able to use a hybrid spec while leveling. I would rather have some of my class defining skills early on so I won't die of boredom having 3 skills and gazillion +1 dmg +1def +1spell talents. Bloat of meaningless and must have talents is all over the place in the current build of the game. This change will not allow your to use a hybrid spec until level 70 but I see this as a a no-brainer trade-off for the overall improvement this will be for level 85 characters. It will also streamline the leveling experience.
This is because current trees require this. A hybrid spec is spending more than just 10 points in a second tree. A spec looking like 51/10/0 is not a hybrid spec. You just go for one of those +5% more talents. A hybrid spec is spending roughly the same amount of talent points in two trees. My resto druid always puts some points into the balance tree, the first two-three tiers. This is not a hybrid spec. This is just because there were RESTO talents in there, same as they were feral,balance talents in the resto tree. I do not see this as a choice but throwing around talents in different trees. This is true for most classes.
Priests used to always spend talents points in two trees because of meditation. It was a bad design and it was definitely not a hybrid spec. You just went for +mana regen that was a must-have not a choice. A holy priest who has more mana regen because of meditation doesn't play differently. It's a filler must have talent which forced people into spending points into a second tree. This is similar to a lot of trees out there.
If Blizz does go ahead and implement this it will kill the remaining fun i have in the game I play a lock mainly and hybrid demo/destro was my prefered spec during ulduar (had a large break after till icc) swapping/changing specs finding what works running diff hybrid specs for pvp is something i found enjoyable.
I have found since i have been back everyone makes me run in deep demo for demonic pact, these days I rarely ever get to go in as afflic unless two locks are in raid, I know blizz has already half killed hybrid specs since classic anyway with the talent changes such as holy/ret pally pvp hybrid. I highly doubt this will in anyway make chars more unique it seems like another step in the direction of making a world of clones.
In my opinion.. The only reason you see a reduction in talents is because it's easier to "homogenize" the classes.. (period) Blizzard can dress it up anyway they wish, but it's all bs.. All they are doing in the end is turning all 10 classes into 3 equal roles.. There is no room for a hybrid class anymore, or hybrid specs.. Blizzard's intent is to have ALL tanks do the same thing.. ALL healers do the same thing.. and ALL dps do the same thing.. Why have 10 classes, when you really only have 3.. Just because you dress one twin in stripes, and dress another in plaids, they in the end still look the same..
Hybrid classes died in burning crusade. This change doesn't really kill the ability to spend points in more than one tree except for the first 50 levels or so of gameplay. I don't understand why blizzard is forcing players to spend the first 31 points in a certain way and don't agree with the change, but overall it won't change much and it doens't force classes to be the same in any way I can tell.
So why have 10 classes if only 6 of them can fulfill their role in a group? I just don't understand the complaints that dps can all get the job done or any tank can be used in a group and any healer can keep that tank alive. All the classes have disctictive features and feels of their own, so they all have something to offer various playstyles. Have we played so many games that have classes that are less than desirable that it has taught us to view imbalance as some positive feature that ? I just don't follow the logic here that balanced classes is a bad thing. I don't want to go back to a system that relies on giving a near usless class a buff that is so important it warrents a group invite just to have a buff.
I agree completely. We really don't know until we see the talent trees. But this part is all about endgame.
Do you agree that even if the endgame remains the same that this change is awesome for leveling characters? Enhancement shamen getting stormstrike at lvl 10? Feral druids getting Maim? Doesn't that go a long way to make your character more like you decide to play him. Again, back to feral druids. If you want to play a feral druid, until lvl 20ish, you are still casting spells like a balance druid
I think the opposite is true. With this change, instead of having 10 classes, we will have 30 classes which all level differently and all will have unique masterys.
Have you looked at the 3 mage classes? They play completely different. The specs that did play similar (like shadow priests and affliction warlocks) are getting changed to be more different.
And you really think a restro druid and a holy paladin are the same thing just because they are both healers? All healing specs need to be able to group heal, and all need to be able to tank heal, so they were all given abilities to make sure they did that, but they are very different in how they play.
TY for proving my point
I think the highlight statement by you verifies that.. No different then ALL Tanks need to AOE taunt and do this and do that.. or ALL dps need to the same damage.. etc etc... There are no 10 unique classes, or 30 like you wish to believe..
I'm old school mmo and NO .. not all dps should be doing the same damage.. and NO, not all healers should be doing the same healing. and NO, not all tanks can tank the same.. Good luck with your game.. LOL
Choice is a bad thing. Learning for yourself is a bad thing.
Doing what you like is against the law!!!! (within context of the game, of course).
I don't see why people would complain about this change. Most the talents they will be getting rid of are simple passive talents or talents every single person uses. Keep the talent trees less bloated with crap and leave us with the more interesting and active ability talents.
Did not say anything about hybrids in that post. Not sure what you are talking about there.
Based on what I read, you are only getting the Mastery Passive buffs in the tree you specialize in. Thus, you will not get those passive buffs in another tree.
Hence the reason for my post, being that Priests are pretty much the only class that does not take 15 pts or more in another tree or take pts from all three trees.
If you are losing the passive (currently active) talents, who would want this other than Priests?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
How does this make any sense?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Thats kind of the point. These redundant talents that just give small passive bonuses that every one uses and cutting them out to make talent trees more streamlined makes sense, even if you get the bonuses in other ways. Theres no need to have talent trees bloated with a bunch of crap. More for the sake of more isn't always the best. This change happened very fast and will already be pushed out in the next beta build, its not pushing the expansion back or taking a ton of development time.
It is possible to have classes with similar dps as well as healers and tanks that can perform their jobs and still have them all do it with enough different abilities and skills that they are different.
What is the benefit of having dps class that does far less dps than other dps classes? You say they shouldn't so what is the reason they shouldn't? Are people going to be excited after they spend time leveling their character only to find out they are less desirable, because they do much less dps.... by design?
What you are pointing to as good design is exactly the type of problem people have complained and left many other mmos over.
The issue at hand though is "mastery" and it applying to the first tree you pick - thus, no way for you to get those bonuses/abilities that you would have been able to get from another tree currently - which is why you generally went into the other tree.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I mean face it, Blizzard has all but admitted that WoW should have been WC4. It is a game lobby game. Soon it will be no different than logging into any of the FPS/TPS/RTS game lobby games - you pick your class/kit - give them a name...tada.
At which point, it would beg the question why is anybody paying a sub for it?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The only people I see complain about class abilities are those people that envy everyone else that is different.. They tank better then me, They dps more then I do.. They heal more then I do.. etc etc.. I heard the same complaints and whining back in my EQ1 days it was silly.. People complaining because a wizzard did more direct damage, or shamans had better heals.. It didn't matter that your class had class abilites others didn't, because people often ignored everything that made them special.. Every mmo I've ever played is littered with people with the mentality of what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too.... People in general can't stand that others have what they don't, while disgarding everything they have that others don't.. SELFISHNESS runs rampid in mmos.. in my opinion.
I come from a genre that appreciates true character class specialization and uniqueness.. I LOVED the old EQ1 days being a druid.. Did I heal as good as a cleric?. oh hell no.. Did I dot as good as a shaman?. oh hell no.. But I could snare and kite, and could track and port.. I did not care that my dps was less then a wizzie or a mage, I had my OWN specialities.. However, EQ changed because of whiners that always worried about what other classes have, that they didn't.. Was everything perfect in EQ1? NO. and the more they tried to appease the whiners, the more things got messed up.. I come from that genre that wants "SUPPORT" classes, hybrid classes and unique skills and abilities..
What confuses me is how people can't see what Bliz is doing.. People defend them saying things like , "dps classes are different".. No, they're not .. really.. So a Mage lays down a blizzard, and a Hunter tosses out a volley, and a Warlock plops down a firestorm...... Guess what? They are all AOE spell damage with the intent that all will do roughly the same dps.. The only true differences after all is said and done is the graphics.. Same with heals and tanking.. So YES.. I will agree with some that there are 30 different "GRAPHIC" classes, but I'll stick with my opinion that there are only 3 roles anymore... 4 if you want to count PvP as a seperate class role..
I like these changes a lot, makes me excited for Cataclysm again, makes me want to actually purchase it again.
I'm free on Friday.
He obviously didn't think about this very much. I mean.. lets say you have a pally healer who is great at tank healing, but terrible at group healing. So you get to an encounter that has a lot of raid damage. What do you do? Ask your pally healer who has been with you from the beginning to drop out of the group so you can bring a druid who is better at raid healing?
This is exactly what went wrong at the end of TBC. Pally tanks were far superiour at multi-mob pulls, so the other 3 tanks got left behind.
The classes are different enough to make them interesting, but the deciding issue of who you bring is the better player, not a particular class. You dont' bring a bad player just becasue he rolled a certain class, while you leave a good player behind because he happened to not have the right class for this boss.
And LOL at your DPS comment. If one class did significantly more DPS than other dps classes, who in their right mind would play the gimped classes? Do you really want a raid with 3 pally tanks, 19 assassination rogues and 3 druid healers? That is what would happen if there was a best tank, best dps and best healer.
So tell me about your game that is better, Mr. Old schooler? Trust me, I know the opposite. I played UO back when EVERY SINGLE PERSON who pvp'd was a mage who carried a halbard. I know exactly what happens when one 'class' is better than the rest. Everyone plays it. it didn't work in UO and they fixed it. It doesn't work in any game.
I could be wrong but it seems you got a gripe with Blizzard. Why would you care if other people pay a sub for it, not your money. If you don't like the game just don't play it dude. Posting on the games forum arguing and complaining isn't gonna get you no where. Some times you just gotta let go and move on.
I have a gripe with what Blizzard has been doing to the game. Admittedly, I only have four 80s and a 47; so I'm not hardcore (Hell, in this day and age of ez-mode they offer, I'm not even casual) by any means... but I like how you completely avoided what I said. There is little to deny that is what Blizzard has been doing since BC.
As to why would I care if people pay? It was about caring why they would charge.
Do you pay to play FPS/TPS/RTS games in game lobbies? Then why should you pay to play WoW if it continues like this?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Again.. TY for proving my point to a T.. you want all dps, tank and healers to be exactly like every other dps, tank and healer..
As for your pally tank comparison.. YES a Pally tank is better at AOE mobs, and Warriors are superior on single target mobs..So instead of having 2 tanking styles with 2 different approaches to a fight.. Everyone whined to dumb down the game to AOEfest.. Come Cataclysm all tanks will be able to single or AOE tank in general.. BORING.. Same with healing and dps. So between all the class envy whining and lazy programing, Blizzard brings to you 3 basic do it all roles.. Tank, Dps and Heals.. Just like 90% of all fights are now AOEfest.. TY for the wide variety of combat mechanics.. (that was sarcasm to Bliz, fyi)
Who needs 10 alts anymore.. Soon everyone will be like a Pally.. you can choose to Heal, Tank or Dps all with one toon.. All you need to do is switch specs.. HELL, Blizz even done away with having 3 different sets of Plate armor.. In Cataclysm all 3 specs will use the same plate.. TY for options and variety (more sarcasm to blizzard)..
"Blizz even done away with having 3 different sets of Plate armor.. In Cataclysm all 3 specs will use the same plate.. TY for options and variety (more sarcasm to blizzard).."
No they didnt, and no they wont.
Tanks will have plate with avoidance stats like parry, dodge, etc.
DPS will have plate with damage stats like haste, crit, etc.
Healers will have plate with intellect, haste, crit, etc.
Thats three different types, for the three different specs. I can only assume you're talking about them removing the defense, and spellpower stats, but that doesnt mean a prot pally will choose INT over avoidance ever. If they do, they dont know what theyre doing.
Also, the new dungeons wont be an aoe fest. You will have to CC many, if not all pulls and even kite in some cases. I put this link in another thread, but I'll post it here as well. Lots of CC needed, and very little aoe used. More strategy, less faceroll. Lets all hope it stays this way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eff6O6YVkJg&feature=player_embedded