Try sticking with your first love, then realize there are options out there, move on.
Next couple you try is just as good, but missing a certain something.
Now and again you get it offered for free, but that lowers your standards and makes you feel cheap.
Slowly become jaded, realize that sometimes its not worth the effort.
Nowadays you pay full price, the fun lasts an hour. You feel dirty afterward.
You wish you could go back. Recapture the magic.
You only stay a virgin once. You realize that you are now a whore.
MMO whore that is
Eventualy you begin to look for meaning, start to go for Some one that has Starndards, and something worth building on, course if you never leave 4th street, it makes it that much harder.
I completely understand what the OP is saying. Its not ruined the MMO experience for me completely but it doesnt exactly enhance it. Regarding the red dot on the map issue: its not just the dot, you know before you even arrive on the scene you know the quest is gonna be shit so the dot just eases the pain by speeding things up!
I think the easiest way to remedy what the OP is talking about is dynamic environments/content. This is where I think instancing will eventually come into its own, rather than be something that a large number of players bitch about. Imagine going into a dungeon to find the basic style is the same each time, but the size, layout, mobs, loot, traps, puzzles, etc are completely different each time. Or walking into a town and theres a random mod/dev controlled seige going on. I think RIFT is promising this and possibly a few other games too, so the futures looking bright imo.
I initially went from playing D2 to WOW and I was kind of surprised for a moment that the world - of Warcraft - was static. My initial thought was literally "this is gonna get dull fast". Obviously the dynamism of D2 wasnt that great and the landscape of WOW is significantly larger than that of D2 so I didnt get bored as quick as I thought I might, but you get the idea. Then of course came Thott for WOW which basically took the sting outta all the quests given that you could read a bunch of them like short stories and then think "ok, so now I know what happens I cant be bothered with doing these quests anymore". If someone can put out a game where even the quests are randomised and are constantly being updated that would be cool.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I know a lot of people think that this sort of mystery and magic is a 'first time' thing. They think it's just nostalgia.
Truth is though there have been a few times where I've recaptured those feelings, most significantly when moving to FFXI. So don't believe the myth that it's just nostalgia! It is possible to experience it again... none of the modern games offer it though. I know a lot of people are hoping for it in FFXIV.
Except that many people do feel immersed in today's MMO's, more so than earlier ones. And many people fave fun in these so called, mostly-ill named wow clones.
So IMO the nostalgia argument and rose-coloured glasses is a huge contributor.
Venge Sunsoar
I disagree, most new mmos only manage to retain their playerbase for a few months (except wow).
They are short term action rpg fix : Fun ? yeah , Immersive ? nope sorry
**************************** Playing : Uncharted Waters Online ****************************
Could some one make an MMO that feels "new" and "mysterious"? Definately. Will it happen? Who knows. One thing is for sure, it would have to be an MMO that breaks the old 1-2-3 button mashing, mob killing, quest training, level grinder mold.
Very true
**************************** Playing : Uncharted Waters Online ****************************
The info has always been out there it's just more easy to obtain and with the casual movement sweeping over the game genre at the moment developers decided why not put it in the game instead of having them alt-tab to find it all. In WoW before I knew of addons if I got stuck on something or needed help trying to figure it out I would ask people and their response? CHECK THOTT!!!! Even in SWG I would ask "what are we hunting today?" and I would just get told to check the resource website so we can know what to kill for the most money.
It's just pointless now to NOT have the info in game. Does it seem like Easy mode with all the info right there for us to use? Wasn't it already easy mode when all we had to do was alt-tab to get it?Or is it just frusterating cause now that everyone has the info it puts everyone on the same ground information wise?
I'd love to have that sense of mystery again in an MMO where people are speculating on what's inside there or how to do something. I remember MMOs used to be hard and we couldn't go to alot of zones alone because they were too hard.
.
So you've lost that first MMO feeling? You're a little jaded now?
.
You can't recapture the first time.
Pretty much this. I loved my old days in EQ, the magic can never be recaptured. It is just that a grand memory of a time when MMOs weren't the talk of the town. They were still in the development mind set and part of the "mystery" was the knowing what to do. Hell, if I walk in to an abandoned house at night with a flash light I am gonna feel mystery. I can't see reproducing that with a typical modern MMO mainly because everything is almost already known at release if not before. Side note, friends and I tried to go to an old Ledgend Server version of EQ one hosted on my friends machine. The fun I had back in the day running in to Emp Crush's room in my cloth and SBS can't be relived. It was aggrivating, same mobs, same encounters, same agro things through walls. Back then, these things were a mystery, now they are annoying.
I'd love to have that sense of mystery again in an MMO where people are speculating on what's inside there or how to do something. I remember MMOs used to be hard and we couldn't go to alot of zones alone because they were too hard.
.
So you've lost that first MMO feeling? You're a little jaded now?
.
You can't recapture the first time.
Pretty much this. I loved my old days in EQ, the magic can never be recaptured. It is just that a grand memory of a time when MMOs weren't the talk of the town. They were still in the development mind set and part of the "mystery" was the knowing what to do. Hell, if I walk in to an abandoned house at night with a flash light I am gonna feel mystery. I can't see reproducing that with a typical modern MMO mainly because everything is almost already known at release if not before. Side note, friends and I tried to go to an old Ledgend Server version of EQ one hosted on my friends machine. The fun I had back in the day running in to Emp Crush's room in my cloth and SBS can't be relived. It was aggrivating, same mobs, same encounters, same agro things through walls. Back then, these things were a mystery, now they are annoying.
END OF LINE_
~V
That's the problem though, you won't be able to recapture them with something old. The only way to feel it again will be if a new MMO comes out that is so different from the norm that everything really is a mystery all over again.
This is exactly what draws me to The Secret World... I'm not getting my hopes up, i know all too well what that leads too, but this game defiinitely has the possibility to offer the mystery and magic that i've been looking for.
I had the same hope for CCP and the WoD project, but now that I saw the quote from them and the target demographic being what really boils down to the twilight crowd the only real "mystery" potential for me is gonna be Secret World. Haven't heard much about it lately, that is a good thing! Less to know, more surprise.
I've been watching movies like LOTR and The Village recently and they've reminded me of what the old MMOs used to have. Like in the Village where they can't cross over into the woods in fear of the creatures inside. I'd love to have that sense of mystery again in an MMO where people are speculating on what's inside there or how to do something.
I understood exactly where you were going. This point was entirely clear to me and I would agree with it, but then you seemed to jump from the logic that games had lost a lot of mystery, right into:
I agree with your assessment here. It has nothing to do with difficulty. My hunch is that it has to do with the over-exposure, the cheapening, the banality to which magic has been cast.
Think about it. The very word magic implies something mysterious and other-wordly. But when you play the modern MMO, magic is ridiculously suffused throughout the games. Case in point: your 'purple', your 'teal' loot, in other words, your top-tier loot that is supposedly exceptional magic, is often vendor trash, or left to rot on the corpse.
The O.P. mentions a movie like Lord of the Rings, and say what you will about the film -- I think Peter Jackson got the tone of 'magic' correct by making it quite rare in the film. The fact that it is rare makes it special, mysterious.
But comparing an MMO to a movie is fraught with peril. Many players want to be 'Gandalf' or 'Aragorn' or play a hobbit with a magic sword -- so the ability to limit these things in an fantasy MMO is tricky at best, and probably impossible without some major re-thinking.
What I would propose is this:
Make all magical items bind on acquire. Period.
Make magical items scale with the player.
re-invent reward systems so that magical loot isn't the most important reward in game.
create a magic system that has a high degree of player agency. Easy to use, difficult to master, with many, many possible combinations. Essentially players can create their own spells -- more like a crafting system for spells.
Most of the MMO world itself would be mundane with a few pockets magical in nature.
Remove magical wandering MOBS from the landscape and replace with more natural animals and threats. Magical monsters would be resigned to special areas. No more giant spiders every 20 feet, or dragons around every turn.
Well those are just some points off the top of my head.
In short, MMOs have made magic banal. Developers aren't storytellers by in large -- they're just the ones holding all the creative utensils. Someday when a true storyteller leads a game's development with vision you'll have something on par with the best TV and Film.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Comments
Eventualy you begin to look for meaning, start to go for Some one that has Starndards, and something worth building on, course if you never leave 4th street, it makes it that much harder.
Dunno about you guys but for me sex is better now than what it used to be : Just gets better with age.
I completely understand what the OP is saying. Its not ruined the MMO experience for me completely but it doesnt exactly enhance it. Regarding the red dot on the map issue: its not just the dot, you know before you even arrive on the scene you know the quest is gonna be shit so the dot just eases the pain by speeding things up!
I think the easiest way to remedy what the OP is talking about is dynamic environments/content. This is where I think instancing will eventually come into its own, rather than be something that a large number of players bitch about. Imagine going into a dungeon to find the basic style is the same each time, but the size, layout, mobs, loot, traps, puzzles, etc are completely different each time. Or walking into a town and theres a random mod/dev controlled seige going on. I think RIFT is promising this and possibly a few other games too, so the futures looking bright imo.
I initially went from playing D2 to WOW and I was kind of surprised for a moment that the world - of Warcraft - was static. My initial thought was literally "this is gonna get dull fast". Obviously the dynamism of D2 wasnt that great and the landscape of WOW is significantly larger than that of D2 so I didnt get bored as quick as I thought I might, but you get the idea. Then of course came Thott for WOW which basically took the sting outta all the quests given that you could read a bunch of them like short stories and then think "ok, so now I know what happens I cant be bothered with doing these quests anymore". If someone can put out a game where even the quests are randomised and are constantly being updated that would be cool.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I know a lot of people think that this sort of mystery and magic is a 'first time' thing. They think it's just nostalgia.
Truth is though there have been a few times where I've recaptured those feelings, most significantly when moving to FFXI. So don't believe the myth that it's just nostalgia! It is possible to experience it again... none of the modern games offer it though. I know a lot of people are hoping for it in FFXIV.
I disagree, most new mmos only manage to retain their playerbase for a few months (except wow).
They are short term action rpg fix : Fun ? yeah , Immersive ? nope sorry
****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************
I used to feel this way about swg back in the day. Now, I couldn't name you a mmorpg that has this kind of feeling anymore:(
Very true
****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************
The info has always been out there it's just more easy to obtain and with the casual movement sweeping over the game genre at the moment developers decided why not put it in the game instead of having them alt-tab to find it all. In WoW before I knew of addons if I got stuck on something or needed help trying to figure it out I would ask people and their response? CHECK THOTT!!!! Even in SWG I would ask "what are we hunting today?" and I would just get told to check the resource website so we can know what to kill for the most money.
It's just pointless now to NOT have the info in game. Does it seem like Easy mode with all the info right there for us to use? Wasn't it already easy mode when all we had to do was alt-tab to get it?Or is it just frusterating cause now that everyone has the info it puts everyone on the same ground information wise?
Very bad analogy in this case.
Sex gets tons better with experience if you have a clue.
The opposite of mmo's for me lol
****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************
Bingo
****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************
Pretty much this. I loved my old days in EQ, the magic can never be recaptured. It is just that a grand memory of a time when MMOs weren't the talk of the town. They were still in the development mind set and part of the "mystery" was the knowing what to do. Hell, if I walk in to an abandoned house at night with a flash light I am gonna feel mystery. I can't see reproducing that with a typical modern MMO mainly because everything is almost already known at release if not before. Side note, friends and I tried to go to an old Ledgend Server version of EQ one hosted on my friends machine. The fun I had back in the day running in to Emp Crush's room in my cloth and SBS can't be relived. It was aggrivating, same mobs, same encounters, same agro things through walls. Back then, these things were a mystery, now they are annoying.
END OF LINE_
~V
That's the problem though, you won't be able to recapture them with something old. The only way to feel it again will be if a new MMO comes out that is so different from the norm that everything really is a mystery all over again.
This is exactly what draws me to The Secret World... I'm not getting my hopes up, i know all too well what that leads too, but this game defiinitely has the possibility to offer the mystery and magic that i've been looking for.
I had the same hope for CCP and the WoD project, but now that I saw the quote from them and the target demographic being what really boils down to the twilight crowd the only real "mystery" potential for me is gonna be Secret World. Haven't heard much about it lately, that is a good thing! Less to know, more surprise.
END OF LINE_
~V
I agree with your assessment here. It has nothing to do with difficulty. My hunch is that it has to do with the over-exposure, the cheapening, the banality to which magic has been cast.
Think about it. The very word magic implies something mysterious and other-wordly. But when you play the modern MMO, magic is ridiculously suffused throughout the games. Case in point: your 'purple', your 'teal' loot, in other words, your top-tier loot that is supposedly exceptional magic, is often vendor trash, or left to rot on the corpse.
The O.P. mentions a movie like Lord of the Rings, and say what you will about the film -- I think Peter Jackson got the tone of 'magic' correct by making it quite rare in the film. The fact that it is rare makes it special, mysterious.
But comparing an MMO to a movie is fraught with peril. Many players want to be 'Gandalf' or 'Aragorn' or play a hobbit with a magic sword -- so the ability to limit these things in an fantasy MMO is tricky at best, and probably impossible without some major re-thinking.
What I would propose is this:
Make all magical items bind on acquire. Period.
Make magical items scale with the player.
re-invent reward systems so that magical loot isn't the most important reward in game.
create a magic system that has a high degree of player agency. Easy to use, difficult to master, with many, many possible combinations. Essentially players can create their own spells -- more like a crafting system for spells.
Most of the MMO world itself would be mundane with a few pockets magical in nature.
Remove magical wandering MOBS from the landscape and replace with more natural animals and threats. Magical monsters would be resigned to special areas. No more giant spiders every 20 feet, or dragons around every turn.
Well those are just some points off the top of my head.
In short, MMOs have made magic banal. Developers aren't storytellers by in large -- they're just the ones holding all the creative utensils. Someday when a true storyteller leads a game's development with vision you'll have something on par with the best TV and Film.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/