We already have 2 failed sandbox(darkfall and mortal online) and one moderatly successfull space sandbox game, why should bioware listen to people who have no idea what they are talking about when they constantly whine for more sandbox games
Bioware is making change, and its just hard for people deal with change when they are so familiar with the old and inferior ways, its for the better and you just have to deal with that, if epic storyline and voice acting scare you so much and the RPG in MMORPG offends you then continue to stick with the WoW clones
How many more failed sandboxes and WoW clones will we have to endure for people to realize that it is time for change
MO and DF were "pvp-sandbox" mmo's. There are different types of mmo's so it would be beneficial to learn them before generalizing sandboxes in general.
Chnage is overated. A game done with a solid foundation and good level of design will beat anything that procliams to bring change. Give me a well designed and developed game over so called sandbox games that pretend to be change, but are just games piss poo developed. hell i think wow has more options in it for characters than most so called sandbox games.
Did you seriously just use "WoW" and "options" in the same sentence? I've lost my faith in these forums.
Get abck to thinking sandbox games have more options. if you think midlessly FFA killing is more options and mindlessly hacking at a piece of wood for 10 hours is options. This is what people like you just dont get sandbox games and any other game has limits and rules. Sandbox games has rules set for its games, example GTA, you cant doa nything you ant. People seem to think sandbox is do anything you want. NO it is not.
If you think all sandbox games are mindless FFA PVP killing fields then you are clearly ignorant.
Can I build my own city in WoW? Hell, I can't even travel zone to zone in WoW without being funneled by invisible walls and level tiers.
The hate is strong with this one. what happened, couldnt get past lvl 2?
But yes, I agree with the OP that MO and DF both fail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lowering their standards just for a mediocre mmo at best.
Well yeah, Mortal Online was poorly made, we could see the failure off a year away.
Darkfall on the other hand, not only is a financial success, but it's growing, which is more than can be said for the past 4 years of WoW clones that are merging servers, laying off devs, and going free to play.
And on top of that, Darkfall is easily the most innovative game to be released in the past 5 years of MMORPGs.
Chnage is overated. A game done with a solid foundation and good level of design will beat anything that procliams to bring change. Give me a well designed and developed game over so called sandbox games that pretend to be change, but are just games piss poo developed. hell i think wow has more options in it for characters than most so called sandbox games.
Did you seriously just use "WoW" and "options" in the same sentence? I've lost my faith in these forums.
Get abck to thinking sandbox games have more options. if you think midlessly FFA killing is more options and mindlessly hacking at a piece of wood for 10 hours is options. This is what people like you just dont get sandbox games and any other game has limits and rules. Sandbox games has rules set for its games, example GTA, you cant doa nything you ant. People seem to think sandbox is do anything you want. NO it is not.
If you think all sandbox games are mindless FFA PVP killing fields then you are clearly ignorant.
Can I build my own city in WoW? Hell, I can't even travel zone to zone in WoW without being funneled by invisible walls and level tiers.
Didn't he say they have more "options for characters"? I'm assuming he meant talent specializations. Regardless, I don't really know how you managed to get from the topic of character options to crafting options with a straight face.
It's best to just accept that a lot of people play WoW, and a lot of them are going to use it as an example. I'd rather they didn't reference it but it's going to happen. It's gotten to the point where it's virtually impossible to read any discussions around here because everytime WoW comes up in a sentence that doesn't include the words "awful" or "destroyed the industry" someone flips out like a frothing lunatic.
So he likes the character spec's in WoW - so what? If you really want to derail the thread with more endless WoW debates at least present an argument, instead of just a flippant comment and invisible wall paranoia.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
But yes, I agree with the OP that MO and DF both fail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lowering their standards just for a mediocre mmo at best.
Well yeah, Mortal Online was poorly made, we could see the failure off a year away.
Darkfall on the other hand, not only is a financial success, but it's growing, which is more than can be said for the past 4 years of WoW clones that are merging servers, laying off devs, and going free to play.
And on top of that, Darkfall is easily the most innovative game to be released in the past 5 years of MMORPGs.
No, it's not.
All you can say is that you enjoy the game, and that he has no right to say you have poor taste because of it. I personally enjoyed MO's open beta far more than the free trial of Darkfall, even with ALL the bugs and asshat players.... and mind you, MO's biggest problem IS the players. Sure there are hacks, but who is using them? asshats.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
in a true sandbox you do of course what you want. if not, then it is just not the right game for you and you should let lead you by the devs through a theme park based game. (like mom & dad did it)
maybe you think than 'you win this game' when you hit the level-cap after 2 weeks and start whining in the various game forums.
But yes, I agree with the OP that MO and DF both fail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lowering their standards just for a mediocre mmo at best.
Well yeah, Mortal Online was poorly made, we could see the failure off a year away.
Darkfall on the other hand, not only is a financial success, but it's growing, which is more than can be said for the past 4 years of WoW clones that are merging servers, laying off devs, and going free to play.
And on top of that, Darkfall is easily the most innovative game to be released in the past 5 years of MMORPGs.
No, it's not.
All you can say is that you enjoy the game, and that he has no right to say you have poor taste because of it. I personally enjoyed MO's open beta far more than the free trial of Darkfall, even with ALL the bugs and asshat players.... and mind you, MO's biggest problem IS the players. Sure there are hacks, but who is using them? asshats.
Well the hacks, and the lack of working content, and the unprofessional developers, and the selling beta scams, and the bugs...they had to turn off almost the entire game to make it playable in beta without lag.
I like the concepts though. Maybe once it's working.
I find it funny that people think that MMO's need to have its own and new inventive ways to be the next big thing. WRONG, WoW did NOT release anything new when it came out and is in fact an EQ clone. Everything WoW has is borrowed from every other MMO out there nothing new came from WoW. They got more people to play their product then the other MMOs out there.
Most every MMO that promised big sweeping changes has fallen on its face. Warhammer, Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Vanguard are examples of MMOs promising us big changes. Most if not all of the games I listed are now on life support or will soon be. Big and new does not always mean the game will be a big hit more times then not they will be a flaming pile of poo.
About the only MMO that had a fairly sweeping change that was doing good for a time was SWG before they decided to become a WoW clone. All this means is just bring to the game what you say you are going to bring. Release the game when it is ready not when some shareholder thinks is a good time. AND, this is the most important fact of any game, make it fun!
I find it funny that people think that MMO's need to have its own and new inventive ways to be the next big thing. WRONG, WoW did NOT release anything new when it came out and is in fact an EQ clone. Everything WoW has is borrowed from every other MMO out there nothing new came from WoW. They got more people to play their product then the other MMOs out there.
Most every MMO that promised big sweeping changes has fallen on its face. Warhammer, Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Vanguard are examples of MMOs promising us big changes. Most if not all of the games I listed are now on life support or will soon be. Big and new does not always mean the game will be a big hit more times then not they will be a flaming pile of poo.
About the only MMO that had a fairly sweeping change that was doing good for a time was SWG before they decided to become a WoW clone. All this means is just bring to the game what you say you are going to bring. Release the game when it is ready not when some shareholder thinks is a good time. AND, this is the most important fact of any game, make it fun!
WoW was a fluke and a process that will NOT be repeated. Sooner people accept that the better.
And most of those MMOs you mentioned failed because they didn't do enough new. Why would I buy ANOTHER WoW game?
While I would agree that Bioware isn't reinventing the wheel here, it is clear that they are doing something that is even possibly better. As much as people love to hate WoW, it is a fantastic game that has kept millions of people entertained for years. If Bioware takes WoW gameplay, skins it in Star Wars, adds voice acting, single player type quests, and the RPG quality of their other games, you have one FANTASTIC MMO. It isn't necessarily "new" but at the same time, it still will be great.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
While I would agree that Bioware isn't reinventing the wheel here, it is clear that they are doing something that is even possibly better. As much as people love to hate WoW, it is a fantastic game that has kept millions of people entertained for years. If Bioware takes WoW gameplay, skins it in Star Wars, adds voice acting, single player type quests, and the RPG quality of their other games, you have one FANTASTIC MMO. It isn't necessarily "new" but at the same time, it still will be great.
Yes, because that worked out so very well for every other game that had people migrate from WoW, only to return to it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
While I would agree that Bioware isn't reinventing the wheel here, it is clear that they are doing something that is even possibly better. As much as people love to hate WoW, it is a fantastic game that has kept millions of people entertained for years. If Bioware takes WoW gameplay, skins it in Star Wars, adds voice acting, single player type quests, and the RPG quality of their other games, you have one FANTASTIC MMO. It isn't necessarily "new" but at the same time, it still will be great.
WoW reskins haven't worked in the past, why would they work now? Everyone interested in a simple derivitive EQ clone is already playing WoW. EQ2, AoC, WAR, SWG post NGE, all WoW clones, none with large subs.
People playing WoW will play WoW. Those not don't want ANOTHER WoW clone.
Everyone interested in a simple derivitive EQ clone is already playing WoW, EQ2, AoC, WAR, LoTRO, AION.
Corrected your post so it matches my thoughts
I disagree with your reasoning though. Games that followed WoW and EQ2 - these two launched same time with nearly identical gameplay experiences (fanboys and haters of both will argue of course) - have actually been pretty good and quite successful - LoTRO, which focus on IP and storyline is a good game and has been successful, AoC is a good game with a PvP bend, AION's too grindy and asian for my taste, but people seem to enjoy.
None of them have been innovative or changed the MMO landscape in a meaningful way, but all quite decent. Expect the same of SWTOR.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
WoW was a fluke and a process that will NOT be repeated. Sooner people accept that the better.
And most of those MMOs you mentioned failed because they didn't do enough new. Why would I buy ANOTHER WoW game?
I am sorry but to say WoW is a fluke is just stupidity at its finest. WoW did NOT make huge sweeping changes its true but they made enough changes from the big MMOs at the time like DAOC and EQ. What WoW did was borrow from other games in a way to be different in its own way.
All this game has to do is be different from WoW the current MMO top dog. As much as people say they want this new big thing and that new big thing they do not want to have to relearn how to move around and do stuff in an MMO. Most everyone wants to get in the game meet up with their friends to have a good time.
To call this a WoW clone is basically being blind, a WoW clone is more like what swg change into and what lord of the ring really was from the start. Lotr offered almost nothing different other then an in game voice chat program and an acomplishment tracker.
So what is different in TOR? Well voice acting is different from wow, offers a bit more invovlement into the game, not really new and sweeping but different from wow. Flashpoints, from what I understand them to be, instances that are 1 time events that a group of people can choose to be a part of, its like an instance but not repeatable. Again not really new but different from wow. While picking up a quest and on a quest you can choose to turn the quest a bit by the actions you do. Along with that your choices will effect how other NPCs will interact with you. Again not really new sweeping changes in terms of MMOs but it is different from wow.
Now name for me 1 MMO that had an absolutely ground breaking new idea that is even moderatly sucessful say 300k to 1 million players. I am talking about AFTER WoW.
As it stands now GW2 offers more than swtor, it's also fully voice with flash points and story changing decisions that effect your character personally and those around you plus the world. GW1 has the best story mode of any mmorpg to date, it's the best when it comes to story.
It has better graphics that are designed to handle low end pc scaling right up to top end,it also has better animations,okay we really haven't played both games but on paper GW2 smashes swtor all over the place. Let's be honest, i f showed you swtor and you didn't know it was being made by BioWare most would have serious doubts on whether the game will be any good.
GW1/ArenaNet have done this before , hell GW sold 6 million copies and has a vast following. Now with the features and a total open world mmorpg it really is going to kick every other new mmorpg butt into the water. If i was BioWare i would be more worried about GW2 than WOW.
WoW was a fluke and a process that will NOT be repeated. Sooner people accept that the better.
And most of those MMOs you mentioned failed because they didn't do enough new. Why would I buy ANOTHER WoW game?
I am sorry but to say WoW is a fluke is just stupidity at its finest. WoW did NOT make huge sweeping changes its true but they made enough changes from the big MMOs at the time like DAOC and EQ. What WoW did was borrow from other games in a way to be different in its own way.
All this game has to do is be different from WoW the current MMO top dog. As much as people say they want this new big thing and that new big thing they do not want to have to relearn how to move around and do stuff in an MMO. Most everyone wants to get in the game meet up with their friends to have a good time.
To call this a WoW clone is basically being blind, a WoW clone is more like what swg change into and what lord of the ring really was from the start. Lotr offered almost nothing different other then an in game voice chat program and an acomplishment tracker.
So what is different in TOR? Well voice acting is different from wow, offers a bit more invovlement into the game, not really new and sweeping but different from wow. Flashpoints, from what I understand them to be, instances that are 1 time events that a group of people can choose to be a part of, its like an instance but not repeatable. Again not really new but different from wow. While picking up a quest and on a quest you can choose to turn the quest a bit by the actions you do. Along with that your choices will effect how other NPCs will interact with you. Again not really new sweeping changes in terms of MMOs but it is different from wow.
Now name for me 1 MMO that had an absolutely ground breaking new idea that is even moderatly sucessful say 300k to 1 million players. I am talking about AFTER WoW.
First off, yes, WoW was a fluke. It didn't do anything different. It didn't have any gimmicks for gameplay. It was blow by blow just an easy version of EverQuest. That's it. The difference was the timing, the MASSIVE marketing budget, and advertising it to people who don't play MMORPGs. What is SWTOR going to do, somehow make a game even more casual than WoW? That market is already tapped and it won't be tapped again.
As for games with massive innovation since 2004, there hasn't really been any, which is why I keep reminding people we're in the deep Dark Ages of MMORPGs. From 1999-2004 we had innovation in each game, trying new things, building on previous systems, and all having their own unique niche and identity. The only slight innovation I've seen out of the 2004-2010 generation(aside from Darkfall, but people like to pretend Darkfall didn't exist or succeed at doing what everyone said wasn't possible) has been public quests from WAR, and that's just plain sad.
We already have 2 failed sandbox(darkfall and mortal online) and one moderatly successfull space sandbox game, why should bioware listen to people who have no idea what they are talking about when they constantly whine for more sandbox games
Bioware is making change, and its just hard for people deal with change when they are so familiar with the old and inferior ways, its for the better and you just have to deal with that, if epic storyline and voice acting scare you so much and the RPG in MMORPG offends you then continue to stick with the WoW clones
How many more failed sandboxes and WoW clones will we have to endure for people to realize that it is time for change
Darkfall and Mortal Online , are both fun to play. But then some of us are sadists so add solo and it gets even better.
Bioware will just roll out a game with a serious ammount of content, a good IP and Biowares expertise this should add some entertainment. I trust them they have never failed to deliver.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
This game isn't extremely innovative, yes it adds several new elements to the traditional themepark MMO, but it's not as fresh as something like APB(new setting, customization options, etc). I'll still probably be playing this game though...
APB si just a small Arena game not an MMO..... Good fun though but not an MMO.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
First off, yes, WoW was a fluke. It didn't do anything different. It didn't have any gimmicks for gameplay. It was blow by blow just an easy version of EverQuest. That's it. The difference was the timing, the MASSIVE marketing budget, and advertising it to people who don't play MMORPGs. What is SWTOR going to do, somehow make a game even more casual than WoW? That market is already tapped and it won't be tapped again.
As for games with massive innovation since 2004, there hasn't really been any, which is why I keep reminding people we're in the deep Dark Ages of MMORPGs. From 1999-2004 we had innovation in each game, trying new things, building on previous systems, and all having their own unique niche and identity. The only slight innovation I've seen out of the 2004-2010 generation(aside from Darkfall, but people like to pretend Darkfall didn't exist or succeed at doing what everyone said wasn't possible) has been public quests from WAR, and that's just plain sad.
I'm betting on 2011-2012 announcing the early Renaissance era of MMORPG's, with a lot of different themes and mechanics making their way into MMO games. It certainly feels that way at the moment (and no, I never bought the hype before AoC's, WAR's, Aion's and other launches: I was them as nice new MMO's before their launch and the first months afterwards, nothing more)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We already have 2 failed sandbox(darkfall and mortal online) and one moderatly successfull space sandbox game, why should bioware listen to people who have no idea what they are talking about when they constantly whine for more sandbox games
Bioware is making change, and its just hard for people deal with change when they are so familiar with the old and inferior ways, its for the better and you just have to deal with that, if epic storyline and voice acting scare you so much and the RPG in MMORPG offends you then continue to stick with the WoW clones
How many more failed sandboxes and WoW clones will we have to endure for people to realize that it is time for change
You lost all credit after your first sentence. Darkfall is far from a failure. Here's why. Darkfall has, since launch, opened a second server, gotten its game globally distributed in game stores around the world, hired more developers, moved into a bigger office building, released 2 free expansions, set up a motion capture studio, and have a third expansion on the way within the month. Sure sounds like a huge failure to me. Considering the past 3 big MMORPG projects with huge budgets have fired developers and merged servers and gone bankrupt, it seems to be well off.
As for Bioware, they would have the capacity to change more than anyone else, they have a huge budget, it'd be much easier to do something new and innovative.
Instead, you say Bioware is paving the way for change?? I see little to no change at all. Voice acting isn't new. Cut scenes aren't new. Neither are new in MMORPGs either. And what else do they have other than a single player storyline tacked onto an MMORPG? Nothing.
You make me think of my beloved star gate worlds that I adorned so much but was viciously ripped from all are star gate worlds fans hands. I hope Cheyenne Mountain entertainment resurrects SGW some how maybee with a new dev or something.
First off, yes, WoW was a fluke. It didn't do anything different. It didn't have any gimmicks for gameplay. It was blow by blow just an easy version of EverQuest. That's it. The difference was the timing, the MASSIVE marketing budget, and advertising it to people who don't play MMORPGs. What is SWTOR going to do, somehow make a game even more casual than WoW? That market is already tapped and it won't be tapped again.
As for games with massive innovation since 2004, there hasn't really been any, which is why I keep reminding people we're in the deep Dark Ages of MMORPGs. From 1999-2004 we had innovation in each game, trying new things, building on previous systems, and all having their own unique niche and identity. The only slight innovation I've seen out of the 2004-2010 generation(aside from Darkfall, but people like to pretend Darkfall didn't exist or succeed at doing what everyone said wasn't possible) has been public quests from WAR, and that's just plain sad.
Wow, not the game just a general comment to express my disbelief that you think that from 1999 to 2004 was the golden age of MMOs and 2004 to present is not. From 1999 it was hard not to be inovative because of the pure lack of MMOs. For that time period you could count the number of MMOs being released per year on 1 finger. While now you have like 10 or so a year being release all with their own concepts and ideas. Many of them saying they got the next biggest draw an inventive thing not see in an MMO.
The problem with these new inovative games is not that they are trying new things. It is that they promise a lot and so far have deliver so little. First rule of game making is only share what you can actually do and promise nothing. Once you have your new inovative idea actually working and it is fun then bring it out and tell us. So many MMOs these days tell us what they are going to attempt to do and fail to deliver, OR deliver a half-ass product.
EQ when it was release really didn't offer much difference from the older MMOs already out just they did it in 3D. There have been only a few games since 1999 to present that have had truely inovative ideas that had any success. Daoc is one in the way it provided pvp. You could go out an pve in your own land never having to worry about getting ganked, or you could go out in to the frontiers and pvp till you puked. Land changed hands and opened up new areas to explore. You had objectives to take and retake in pvp not many games up to then were doing, and none gave the RVR style they still own.
The other fairly inovative game that had any success was SWG, where they use skills lvling instead of the usual lvl 1 to max thing that most every other MMO had. As you used a skill more and more you got exp for that skill and could use the exp to train further in that tree, or dump that skill and pick up a new one. If SWG had kept that system instead of going more WoW like they would probably have 500k+ players instead of whatever they have now.
Again WoW was NOT a fluke they had their share of new stuff from DAOC and EQ. Instances where still very new concept when WoW came out. Each group having their own dungeon to go explore and kill bosses was very different from most every MMO at tha time. Also each raid group having its own shot at the raid bosses was fairly new, yes still an instance but built on the instance concept. WoW is still big today because they keep advertising. How many MMOs out there go out and get big name stars of any era to do an ad for them? answer not many if any other then WoW. What keeps a product going is advertising, you stop doing that your product is going to starve.
However, I can see the writing on the wall that tells me WoW is not going to be top dog for very much longer. They have already made some pretty big promises in their latest expantion and backed out of a few of them. Also have made some other choices which many that play the game or other blizzard products are not in favor of. They are starting to do what all big named MMOs have done. They are starting to think they can do no wrong and no matter what they will keep the majority of their player base. They have also made the game too easy now to get gear and that does effect people. People say they do not care about gear but thats not totally true. People want to feel different from most of the other players. BUT if everyone can get what you have then no one is special or different and its going to eat away at the game.
Comments
MO and DF were "pvp-sandbox" mmo's. There are different types of mmo's so it would be beneficial to learn them before generalizing sandboxes in general.
The hate is strong with this one. what happened, couldnt get past lvl 2?
But yes, I agree with the OP that MO and DF both fail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lowering their standards just for a mediocre mmo at best.
Or maybe they just enjoy those games?
No, that can't be it...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Well yeah, Mortal Online was poorly made, we could see the failure off a year away.
Darkfall on the other hand, not only is a financial success, but it's growing, which is more than can be said for the past 4 years of WoW clones that are merging servers, laying off devs, and going free to play.
And on top of that, Darkfall is easily the most innovative game to be released in the past 5 years of MMORPGs.
Didn't he say they have more "options for characters"? I'm assuming he meant talent specializations. Regardless, I don't really know how you managed to get from the topic of character options to crafting options with a straight face.
It's best to just accept that a lot of people play WoW, and a lot of them are going to use it as an example. I'd rather they didn't reference it but it's going to happen. It's gotten to the point where it's virtually impossible to read any discussions around here because everytime WoW comes up in a sentence that doesn't include the words "awful" or "destroyed the industry" someone flips out like a frothing lunatic.
So he likes the character spec's in WoW - so what? If you really want to derail the thread with more endless WoW debates at least present an argument, instead of just a flippant comment and invisible wall paranoia.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
No, it's not.
All you can say is that you enjoy the game, and that he has no right to say you have poor taste because of it. I personally enjoyed MO's open beta far more than the free trial of Darkfall, even with ALL the bugs and asshat players.... and mind you, MO's biggest problem IS the players. Sure there are hacks, but who is using them? asshats.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
in a true sandbox you do of course what you want. if not, then it is just not the right game for you and you should let lead you by the devs through a theme park based game. (like mom & dad did it)
maybe you think than 'you win this game' when you hit the level-cap after 2 weeks and start whining in the various game forums.
Well the hacks, and the lack of working content, and the unprofessional developers, and the selling beta scams, and the bugs...they had to turn off almost the entire game to make it playable in beta without lag.
I like the concepts though. Maybe once it's working.
Arguing that MO is well made is just sad.
I find it funny that people think that MMO's need to have its own and new inventive ways to be the next big thing. WRONG, WoW did NOT release anything new when it came out and is in fact an EQ clone. Everything WoW has is borrowed from every other MMO out there nothing new came from WoW. They got more people to play their product then the other MMOs out there.
Most every MMO that promised big sweeping changes has fallen on its face. Warhammer, Conan, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and Vanguard are examples of MMOs promising us big changes. Most if not all of the games I listed are now on life support or will soon be. Big and new does not always mean the game will be a big hit more times then not they will be a flaming pile of poo.
About the only MMO that had a fairly sweeping change that was doing good for a time was SWG before they decided to become a WoW clone. All this means is just bring to the game what you say you are going to bring. Release the game when it is ready not when some shareholder thinks is a good time. AND, this is the most important fact of any game, make it fun!
WoW was a fluke and a process that will NOT be repeated. Sooner people accept that the better.
And most of those MMOs you mentioned failed because they didn't do enough new. Why would I buy ANOTHER WoW game?
I have yet to see anyone argue that, soooo....
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
While I would agree that Bioware isn't reinventing the wheel here, it is clear that they are doing something that is even possibly better. As much as people love to hate WoW, it is a fantastic game that has kept millions of people entertained for years. If Bioware takes WoW gameplay, skins it in Star Wars, adds voice acting, single player type quests, and the RPG quality of their other games, you have one FANTASTIC MMO. It isn't necessarily "new" but at the same time, it still will be great.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
Yes, because that worked out so very well for every other game that had people migrate from WoW, only to return to it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
WoW reskins haven't worked in the past, why would they work now? Everyone interested in a simple derivitive EQ clone is already playing WoW. EQ2, AoC, WAR, SWG post NGE, all WoW clones, none with large subs.
People playing WoW will play WoW. Those not don't want ANOTHER WoW clone.
Corrected your post so it matches my thoughts
I disagree with your reasoning though. Games that followed WoW and EQ2 - these two launched same time with nearly identical gameplay experiences (fanboys and haters of both will argue of course) - have actually been pretty good and quite successful - LoTRO, which focus on IP and storyline is a good game and has been successful, AoC is a good game with a PvP bend, AION's too grindy and asian for my taste, but people seem to enjoy.
None of them have been innovative or changed the MMO landscape in a meaningful way, but all quite decent. Expect the same of SWTOR.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I am sorry but to say WoW is a fluke is just stupidity at its finest. WoW did NOT make huge sweeping changes its true but they made enough changes from the big MMOs at the time like DAOC and EQ. What WoW did was borrow from other games in a way to be different in its own way.
All this game has to do is be different from WoW the current MMO top dog. As much as people say they want this new big thing and that new big thing they do not want to have to relearn how to move around and do stuff in an MMO. Most everyone wants to get in the game meet up with their friends to have a good time.
To call this a WoW clone is basically being blind, a WoW clone is more like what swg change into and what lord of the ring really was from the start. Lotr offered almost nothing different other then an in game voice chat program and an acomplishment tracker.
So what is different in TOR? Well voice acting is different from wow, offers a bit more invovlement into the game, not really new and sweeping but different from wow. Flashpoints, from what I understand them to be, instances that are 1 time events that a group of people can choose to be a part of, its like an instance but not repeatable. Again not really new but different from wow. While picking up a quest and on a quest you can choose to turn the quest a bit by the actions you do. Along with that your choices will effect how other NPCs will interact with you. Again not really new sweeping changes in terms of MMOs but it is different from wow.
Now name for me 1 MMO that had an absolutely ground breaking new idea that is even moderatly sucessful say 300k to 1 million players. I am talking about AFTER WoW.
As it stands now GW2 offers more than swtor, it's also fully voice with flash points and story changing decisions that effect your character personally and those around you plus the world. GW1 has the best story mode of any mmorpg to date, it's the best when it comes to story.
It has better graphics that are designed to handle low end pc scaling right up to top end,it also has better animations,okay we really haven't played both games but on paper GW2 smashes swtor all over the place. Let's be honest, i f showed you swtor and you didn't know it was being made by BioWare most would have serious doubts on whether the game will be any good.
GW1/ArenaNet have done this before , hell GW sold 6 million copies and has a vast following. Now with the features and a total open world mmorpg it really is going to kick every other new mmorpg butt into the water. If i was BioWare i would be more worried about GW2 than WOW.
First off, yes, WoW was a fluke. It didn't do anything different. It didn't have any gimmicks for gameplay. It was blow by blow just an easy version of EverQuest. That's it. The difference was the timing, the MASSIVE marketing budget, and advertising it to people who don't play MMORPGs. What is SWTOR going to do, somehow make a game even more casual than WoW? That market is already tapped and it won't be tapped again.
As for games with massive innovation since 2004, there hasn't really been any, which is why I keep reminding people we're in the deep Dark Ages of MMORPGs. From 1999-2004 we had innovation in each game, trying new things, building on previous systems, and all having their own unique niche and identity. The only slight innovation I've seen out of the 2004-2010 generation(aside from Darkfall, but people like to pretend Darkfall didn't exist or succeed at doing what everyone said wasn't possible) has been public quests from WAR, and that's just plain sad.
Darkfall and Mortal Online , are both fun to play. But then some of us are sadists so add solo and it gets even better.
Bioware will just roll out a game with a serious ammount of content, a good IP and Biowares expertise this should add some entertainment. I trust them they have never failed to deliver.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
You obviously do not know what a sandbox is . This game is a standard MMO, the content and IP is what will make it special.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
APB si just a small Arena game not an MMO..... Good fun though but not an MMO.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I'm betting on 2011-2012 announcing the early Renaissance era of MMORPG's, with a lot of different themes and mechanics making their way into MMO games. It certainly feels that way at the moment (and no, I never bought the hype before AoC's, WAR's, Aion's and other launches: I was them as nice new MMO's before their launch and the first months afterwards, nothing more)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You make me think of my beloved star gate worlds that I adorned so much but was viciously ripped from all are star gate worlds fans hands. I hope Cheyenne Mountain entertainment resurrects SGW some how maybee with a new dev or something.
Wow, not the game just a general comment to express my disbelief that you think that from 1999 to 2004 was the golden age of MMOs and 2004 to present is not. From 1999 it was hard not to be inovative because of the pure lack of MMOs. For that time period you could count the number of MMOs being released per year on 1 finger. While now you have like 10 or so a year being release all with their own concepts and ideas. Many of them saying they got the next biggest draw an inventive thing not see in an MMO.
The problem with these new inovative games is not that they are trying new things. It is that they promise a lot and so far have deliver so little. First rule of game making is only share what you can actually do and promise nothing. Once you have your new inovative idea actually working and it is fun then bring it out and tell us. So many MMOs these days tell us what they are going to attempt to do and fail to deliver, OR deliver a half-ass product.
EQ when it was release really didn't offer much difference from the older MMOs already out just they did it in 3D. There have been only a few games since 1999 to present that have had truely inovative ideas that had any success. Daoc is one in the way it provided pvp. You could go out an pve in your own land never having to worry about getting ganked, or you could go out in to the frontiers and pvp till you puked. Land changed hands and opened up new areas to explore. You had objectives to take and retake in pvp not many games up to then were doing, and none gave the RVR style they still own.
The other fairly inovative game that had any success was SWG, where they use skills lvling instead of the usual lvl 1 to max thing that most every other MMO had. As you used a skill more and more you got exp for that skill and could use the exp to train further in that tree, or dump that skill and pick up a new one. If SWG had kept that system instead of going more WoW like they would probably have 500k+ players instead of whatever they have now.
Again WoW was NOT a fluke they had their share of new stuff from DAOC and EQ. Instances where still very new concept when WoW came out. Each group having their own dungeon to go explore and kill bosses was very different from most every MMO at tha time. Also each raid group having its own shot at the raid bosses was fairly new, yes still an instance but built on the instance concept. WoW is still big today because they keep advertising. How many MMOs out there go out and get big name stars of any era to do an ad for them? answer not many if any other then WoW. What keeps a product going is advertising, you stop doing that your product is going to starve.
However, I can see the writing on the wall that tells me WoW is not going to be top dog for very much longer. They have already made some pretty big promises in their latest expantion and backed out of a few of them. Also have made some other choices which many that play the game or other blizzard products are not in favor of. They are starting to do what all big named MMOs have done. They are starting to think they can do no wrong and no matter what they will keep the majority of their player base. They have also made the game too easy now to get gear and that does effect people. People say they do not care about gear but thats not totally true. People want to feel different from most of the other players. BUT if everyone can get what you have then no one is special or different and its going to eat away at the game.