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General: The Rising Influence of Casual and Social

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  • TugelaTugela Member Posts: 1

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    This made me think of something, with your comments about 'friends', that you'd rather group with friends than a pick-up group, and more and better contact with friends.. But what about the people that don't have friends that play MMO's, such as myself?

    This is the problem with soloable content, it doesn't breed a community. Unless you have friends in game to group with, it's going to be very hard to get a group and, nine times out of ten, you probably wouldn't need one to complete the content anyway.

    So while it's nice to increase the amount of things you can do with friends in game, you need to have things put in place for people who are alone and looking for people to befriend in game. It comes back to my previous comment, we need games to create a community, not just opportunities.


     

     The point you are missing is that to be a true virtual world if you want friends you need to go and find them yourself, there shouldn't be an artifcial constraint forcing you to be "friends" with random people. It is the same as being forced to hold hands with random strangers and sing Kum Bay Ya in order to use the bus. In a true virtual world you should be able to achieve something meaningful yourself but surrounded by others going about their "lives", some of whom are your "friends" but most random strangers.

    When I play I usually like to solo for "fun" for a personal challenge, and see raiding as "work".  Grouping is like a "night on the town with some buddies", but I see that as the least serious activity of all. A game should reflect that, the primary rewards should come from soloing and raiding (but neither should give you an advantage doing the other), while grouping rewards should be things of a more frivolous nature (after all, the purpose is to socialize when doing that, not earn rewards).

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

     

    Just because developers somewhere along the way  forgot players cared about more than combat and crafting, doesn't mean that MMO's aren't social games. Most of the current MMO's aren't though......... 

    The developers didn't necessarily forget, so much as more and more players are delivering the message, "More solo. Less grouping."

    Not to toot my own horn here, but I saw this coming some years back. A definite trend started.

    People at first just wanted *some* soloable content. They understood that MMOs are, at their core social games; community was important, cooperation was important. Being a jackass was counter-intuitive to having an enjoyable experience because doing so tended to result in the individual being shunned from more and more activities as their reputation as a jackass spread. So, you saw far fewer jackasses... or at least didn't see them for very long. They either moved on, or got the clue and cleaned up their act. Your standing in a community mattered.

    Many posts I saw were along the lines of "we don't want group content to be made more solo, we just want to have some solo content that we can do if we don't have time to group, or if we're waiting for a group to come together", and so forth. So, developers added a bit more solo content, and it was fine... for a little while.

    After a time, when the novelty of having a bit more solo content wore off, people started saying "you know, there should be more solo content than there is. Look at all the group content the group players have. What if I don't want to group up at all? I don't have enough to do. I'm not asking to kill off grouping. Just add a bit more solo content so we dont' have to group up all the time if we don't want. Especially at lower levels where there tends to be fewer players". So... developers added a bit more solo content. And it was fine.... for a little while.

    Before long the novelty wore off again, and sure enough... the complaints started again.

    An interesting thing happened over time that I noticed.  While at the beginning the more solo-focused players were accepting of the fact that MMOs were largely group/social/community centric games, as they were given more and more consideration in response to their requests for more solo content.. their level of discontent increased. I saw fewer and fewer posts of people requesting more solo activities, and more and more posts of people *demanding* it. They went from understanding that wanting to solo was not a core design feature, just wanting a little more of it to 'fill in the gaps', to crying "unfair!" because they weren't being given equal solo content to match the amount of group content.

    It got to the point where if a player couldn't solo a game from level 1 to level cap, the game was "broken" and "needed to be fixed". Still, there was one line that no one seemed to really want to cross... Raid content. For a long time, I saw many people stop short of demanding more soloability in raids... of course because it's completely ridiculous to call it a raid if you're soloing.

    Instead, I saw an increasing amount of people calling for raids to be removed completely because they were solo players who had no interest in raids because they're group focused - and if they "can't" do raid content, then it's not fair for it to be in the game and should be removed completely. They don't care if many others enjoy it; they don't, so it had to go or they were leaving the game and it would fail... blah blah.

    However... in the past year or so, I've started to see more and more people crossing that line and demanding that raids be made soloable. They've started using all the typical arguments.. that it's "unfair to force them to group up for a raid boss and they should be able to solo it, or the game is broken and they're going to take their toys and leave".

    In the course of about 5 years, we've gotten to the point where if a MMO has seemingly any group content at all, the forums are flooded with cries of "forced grouping!" and "unfair!" and "I shouldn't have to group, ever, if I don't want to!"

    I need to interject an obligatory statement here: I realize not everyone who likes solo content is like that. There, now no one who doesn't fit what I've described above need be offended :).

    I'm curious what's going to happen with FFXIV. Though it will have soloable content in the form of the lower tier Guildleves, I'm quite certain a lot of the content is going to be group-centric. I fully expect the outcries of "unfair!" and "forced grouping!" and "fail!" to blow through the ceiling once enough people get into that game and realize that, no, they can't solo the entire game and, yes, they are going to have to cooperate with other players and, no, the game's not going to fail if they leave.

    I'm hoping SE sticks to their guns like they have with FFXI and says "well, this is the gameplay experience we want to create, we want more focus on cooperation and community, and we fully accept that it's not going to appeal to everyone. We're catering to the crowd who would enjoy what we're creating". Assuming they do, I'll be prepared to mute some chat channels in FFXIV and/or add some people to my ignore list. I'll have no desire to read the spam of people howling from their personal mountain-tops about how the game is "fail" because they're "forced to group" in a tier 3+ guildleve. 

    There is one observation I'll state with absolute certainty, having seen it myself: The less importance is placed on grouping or community in a MMO and the more soloable it is, the less accountable individuals are for their behavior and the more obnoxious the game population tends to be. For example, there was no such thing as "Barrens Chat" in FFXI.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by WSIMike

    The developers didn't necessarily forget, so much as more and more players are delivering the message, "More solo. Less grouping."

     You know, I think I blame this completely on World of Warcraft. What we had pre-Warcraft were group based games with great communities and awesome raids. When Warcraft came along they sucked in all the people who had never played an MMO before, people who were used to single player games and so took quite happily to the solo play of Warcraft. Being that the majority of players are used to single player games, it's obvious why the community is so awful.

    Now, a few years on, those people have decided that they're tired of WoW and want to try a different MMO, the problem being, they've never played a real MMO with community and group focused gameplay, most of them hated having to group and raid in World of Warcraft. So they think they know all about MMO's but really don't understand the core principles, hence why you see so many 'me-me' posts asking for solo-centric games and equal rewards for soloing and raiding.

  • astoriaastoria Member UncommonPosts: 1,677

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Well said, and you are right on target.  Just looking at some of the "me-centered" responses posted in this thread goes a long way to explaining the current poor social environment of most modern MMORPG's.

    Extend a helping hand to a fellow stranger folks, might just turn out to be the best thing you ever did.  (and yes, it is possible to do things for other people without obtaining an equivalent return on investment)


     

     This. Best post on the subject yet. Me-centered is so right, it's exactly what I was thinking when reading through them.


     

     +1

    "Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  • AoCrulesAoCrules Member Posts: 104

    Just unbelievable we have come to this point, but lets see the worst case scenario. Devs know they're fail. So they start to make this MMO-single-playing-RPG games, just like SWTOR. Probably shitload of grind too. Man, I cant believe they are so dumb. Its so easy to make MMO based around clans for example. You are part of clan (community) you need then and they need you. Anything basically.

    Hater of hater of World of Tank. Latest wargame from wargaming.net.

  • DraigUKDraigUK Member Posts: 20

    I'm hoping ti will go full circle, devs will grow some balls and tell these solo demanding players to go do one.

    Since the older MMO that demanded socialisiation, and grouping, to acheive anything meaningful in the game has gone, I have not taken part in one single MMO that held me for more than about 6 months.

    Most much much less. Only exception since playing DAoC for close to 5 years, was EvE that had me for a couple of years.

    Actually, despite it's faults, that is why I like playng APB. To get any meaningful fun out of it you need a group.

    One day a dev will grow some balls, and make an MMO from the old days without the faults, taking the good bits from todays genre of MMO, while also putting back the community and grouping aspects. And when the cries start coming from those wanting solo content, tehy just give them the finger and say this is what an MMO is about. Don't like it go play your XBox. Or something like that.

    Who knows, maybe Mythic will redeem themselves for ruining Warhammer Online and make DAoC 2, as it should be, which is to say DAoC, without the crazy ass PvE grind to get into RvR, without the healbots, without all the crap they introduced to it through expansions and ruined it. If they did something close to that, where if you got a bad rep on a server for being an ass, you would never get a group or a guild, and eventually be forced to make a new char or join a different server, then maybe, just maybe, an MMo would bea round again that got me paying for years and not months.

    And maybe, just maybe, some of these solo-centric short sighted people will experience what an MMO was really about, and saty for years also. Or they can go play single palyer games or back to so called MMO that will pander to their solo desires, and leave a nice profitable long running niche MMO for those who yearn for the old days.

  • AoCrulesAoCrules Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by DraigUK

    I'm hoping ti will go full circle, devs will grow some balls and tell these solo demanding players to go do one.

    Since the older MMO that demanded socialisiation, and grouping, to acheive anything meaningful in the game has gone, I have not taken part in one single MMO that held me for more than about 6 months.

    Most much much less. Only exception since playing DAoC for close to 5 years, was EvE that had me for a couple of years.

    Actually, despite it's faults, that is why I like playng APB. To get any meaningful fun out of it you need a group.

    One day a dev will grow some balls, and make an MMO from the old days without the faults, taking the good bits from todays genre of MMO, while also putting back the community and grouping aspects. And when the cries start coming from those wanting solo content, tehy just give them the finger and say this is what an MMO is about. Don't like it go play your XBox. Or something like that.

    Who knows, maybe Mythic will redeem themselves for ruining Warhammer Online and make DAoC 2, as it should be, which is to say DAoC, without the crazy ass PvE grind to get into RvR, without the healbots, without all the crap they introduced to it through expansions and ruined it. If they did something close to that, where if you got a bad rep on a server for being an ass, you would never get a group or a guild, and eventually be forced to make a new char or join a different server, then maybe, just maybe, an MMo would bea round again that got me paying for years and not months.

    And maybe, just maybe, some of these solo-centric short sighted people will experience what an MMO was really about, and saty for years also. Or they can go play single palyer games or back to so called MMO that will pander to their solo desires, and leave a nice profitable long running niche MMO for those who yearn for the old days.


     

    Ive started to respect SOE so much more. They've really made awesome differnt MMOs than anyone else like SWG, Planetside then Pirates of whatever it was, what I know of.

    Too many devs are just like this, grind is money, grind is money, grind is money, give them fucking macro-tools if they get tired, grind if money, grind is money, they sit behind the desk drinking whiskey and while some young guy is fucking his wife.

    Hater of hater of World of Tank. Latest wargame from wargaming.net.

  • ZinderinZinderin Member Posts: 51

     

    I wish the two models would break away from each other completely.   Casual play, and group-centric play.   I know it will never happen because developers will continue to produce the watered-down, generic, drivel we've been getting for the last 5 years, as they quest to achieve WoW type subscription numbers.

     

    As someone said up above, MMO's as I knew them (and came to love them) are dead.   And I don't see a ressurection in their future.

     

    Casual games = mundane, mindless, tactless content (so it can be solo'd and so that large guilds have no advantage).   And because it is mindless and tactless, developers resort to forcing grinding on us in an effort to throttle those who aren't mindless or tactless.   I won't even get into how much casual detroys the true social aspect of MMOs and any sense of decorum among players.

     

    I would rather see games rated as;

    casual / solo (what we're getting now with 90% of the games)

    dedicated / group oriented (some solo, but not casual and requires some grouping).

    hardcore multiplayer (you know going in, you are going to have to dedicate time to it, learn the game and your class, and you are going to have to be a part of a guild or a least a dedication group of players).

     

    Not ever going to happen ... but one could wish.

  • lethyslethys Member UncommonPosts: 585

    There should be both soloable and multiplayer content in an MMO.

     

    There.  I win the forum.

  • gurugeorgegurugeorge Member UncommonPosts: 481

    It shouldn't all have to be about either teaming with friends or playing solo, teaming with strangers is also fun, and can be fun and rewarding, as CoX showed.  In that game, teamplay was neither so intricate, nor penalties so great, that PUGs were horrible experiences (most of the time - of course there are always going to be a few entertaining horror stories! :) ).  In that game (by my experience) PUG-ing was the order of the day: a way to be a casual player, yet also play with people.  In that game, within 5 mins of logging in, I could either quickly form, or be in a 6-8 member PUG, and you'd usually stick together through a few missions (usually a couple of hours), maybe dropping a  few members and picking some up as you went.  I'd say that was the average type of gameplay for a majority of the playerbase.  It's why a game that lacked so many MMO tropes (such as crafting and endgame) and was predicted to fail because of that, lasted for 5 years.

    Just think what a game that had CoX's puggability PLUS all the usual MMO tropes would be like!

    The equation of casual=solo is terrible, and should be banned.  CoX showed the way.  Sadly, Cryptic themselves forgot their own lesson (no doubt in an effort to make their recent offering, Champions Online, more WoW-like).  But maybe someone else will grok it and develop it further.

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