Then you have the issue of those that rush through it all because some other ahole decided to rush through it so since you cant be left behind you do the same thing and the next person does the same thing.
I bring up WoW again, BC comes out everyone rushes to 70 and starts raiding, how are you suppose to get into the story if your guild bust your balls because they need your leet heals or your leet tanking or your leet DPS. You end up rushing through the game and skip the story. WotLK comes out and everyone rushes to 80 and then complain because there is nothing to do, well hello mcfly you skipped the damn story. First guy that dinged 80 on my server was this druid, he did it in like 3 days, come on do you really think he care's about the story? No he does not, he wants to get to end game because everyone thinks that everything really begins at end game.
I belive that what they should do is that end game raiding should start off right off the bat, have your 5 man dungeons but also have your 10 man raids that way bam new expansion end game starts and your not rushing to get to 'End Game.' One of the issue I saw with WotLK was that everyone rushed through it and most people where raiding and killing the raid two weeks after the expansion came out. And again agreed that the story is not that emersive, but then again how much story do you truely see if you get to end game 2 weeks after the game came out?
So I guess in conclusion the whole end game thing ruins the story that you want and PVP ruins the story that you want, if they can truely incorporate both of those things into the story then you can have a more emersive story.
Every person has a unique story in real life. It is what defines us, sets us apart and makes us unique. It is the bar to who and what we relate to.
A person who is born into a middle class family with 3 siblings, whose parents divorce at 10, gets into trouble with the law, and has a hard life, has a different story to a person born into a rich family stable family.
The troubled one relates to others who are troubled, listens to alternate music, finds solace in stories of those who build success from nothing.
The rich one relates to others of privileged background, listens to classical music and finds solace in those who build business empires.
I don't want to get too far into this social upbringing analogy, but needless to say, what we bring to the table is ourselves. Our stories if you will.
Now in context of a game, our stories that we experience sets who we represent as our avatar.
In a single player game, without the influence of others, we are isolated. We can closely relate to the protagonist and immerse ourselves in the story of the game because it feels like a unique experience. This isolation allows for a suspension of belief and allows us to step in the shoes of a fantasy character or world, and enjoy something different and without ourselves.
Novels are similar in respect, apart from our influences to who we can relate to and enjoy. Again because of our life story. This is why authors have such a large diverse readerships. Quality of writing non-withstanding.
When we play in a massively multi-player game, the belief is hard to suspend with others who whiz though the same story jumping around. We feel like clones of each other. With the same story.
Without this suspension of belief, it is hard to be immersed in the story of our character. Thus we feel disillusioned with our game.
We all want a unique story to represent our character, our avatar, our protagonist. So we can relate to others, mayhap in a tavern, over an imaginary mug of mead. To swap stories, to realize we had different unique experiences and find commonality. A sense of realism and community in a mmorpg world.
I think developers are limited to the tools of our times and the limits of our computer hardware. Making stories more complex, with alternate endings and random and diverse plot lines, even down to the simplest quest, would be a scripting nightmare.
We can bemoan our low standards in the industry and demand more quality, but time will fix this problem. Computers will get faster, better, cheaper, and developers can push the limits of what consumer hardware can do.
Eventually we will get the quality stories that we yearn for. Just not right now.
Why do you hate paragraphs? Is it because they are responsible for all those bad storyless MMOs you just mentioned? Is it because they made WoW in a way that the Raids and dungeons don't fit into the story line, like how Magister's Terrace and Sunwell Plateau DON'T fit with the story of Isle of Quel'Danas AT ALL?
Stop hating paragraphs, they're people too.
Now about the content of your post, what are you trying to say? It looks like a string of random sentences, with no single coherent thought. The MMOs you called storyless, with just a bunch of "go from point a to b then bring it back to me", make more sense.
I feel the need to back of Blizzard on this one; credit needs to be given where credit is due.
The storyline for World of Warcraft is incredibly immersive, however a great many seem to overlook this. More to the point, from what I have been told World of Warcraft is really Warcraft 3, as it follows the storyline from the RTS games.This seeming lack of immersive story is possible because the gameplay is simple enough, repetitive enough and there is a quest log that points you to almost exactly where you need to go and what to do. The apparent lack of immersive story is one of the many examples of Blizzard shooting themselves in the foot and bleeding money into the bank. Yet despite these facts I always had the impression that I was doing something vital for my class, race or faction because I read the quest text. So, aside from there being no real need to read the quest text there is the other issue of people not wanting to read.
Games that are defined as more 'sandboxy' are the games that have less immersive stories, such as Final Fantasy XI and, dare I say, Mortal Online, but you seem to me to be thinking of games that aren't that open. All I can say to that is it seems to me to be a combination of developers having weak stories to begin with and propping them up with filler and a growing number of people who seem to be legimitately unconcerned with game lore. This combination sets up a vicious cycle where developers may not choose to go the route of a strong story, thinking that many gamers won't pay attention to it anyway and their resources are better spent elsewhere, and gamers who want a strong story picking that game up and pointing out the lack of a strong story.
Sorry for the repeat back to back replies, but I want to reply to all this. :P The reason many people are unconcerned with stories is because they have absolutely no effect on the actual world. My guild killed lich king in ICC, there was a crazy movie. Yes there was an apparent story there, did i feel obligated to pay attention? Not really i just wanted to move on and get my gear. Why? Because in the end it had no effect on the actual world, I walked out of ICC nothing had changed and the Lich King was once again sitting at the top of ICC waiting for us to kill him, yet again. There was very little attempt to carry that story from the very beginning to end (The DK starter area does not count). And in the end you have to grind your way all the way to 80, and it is a very apparent grind. You don't care about the quests, how do they affect you except by giving you experience? They don't, so you don't pay attention. Now I am not saying get rid of repeatable instances, that is not what I am saying, but if something is going to be the main story. Make it the main story. Make fun side quests, interesting activities, other unrelated instances, other things to do on the side to gather gear. Maybe even a mini game for the crafting system that would affect overall quality of the goods you are making and actually require some mastery. But leave the main story to be the main story, make it permanent and have a true effect on the player and their overall experience.
Why do you hate paragraphs? Is it because they are responsible for all those bad storyless MMOs you just mentioned? Is it because they made WoW in a way that the Raids and dungeons don't fit into the story line, like how Magister's Terrace and Sunwell Plateau DON'T fit with the story of Isle of Quel'Danas AT ALL?
Stop hating paragraphs, they're people too.
Now about the content of your post, what are you trying to say? It looks like a string of random sentences, with no single coherent thought. The MMOs you called storyless, with just a bunch of "go from point a to b then bring it back to me", make more sense.
No It is because my editor is condensing all my paragraphs into one overdrawn jumble of separated ideas. It's terrible, isn't it? I am not saying they don't fit. Anyways, what affect did they have on the world and the player? Nothing, they just reset. Nothing was changed except your gear.
They have games like that and they fall into all sorts of categories, from puzzle games like Peggle, racing games like Need For Speed and fighting games like Mortal Kombat. What you are missing is that these are MMORPGs and the last three letters of that acronym that aren't a 's' are 'rpg': role-playing game. Story is absolutely integral to a quality RPG, whether it be just a RPG, a MRPG, MORPG or MMORPG, gameplay can differ but story is vital. If you want to say that gameplay is greater-than story in MMOGs generally speaking, well, you may be right. But, as far as MMORPGs are concerned, your utterly fallacious opinion has been exposed.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I rather have a MMO with a deep lore, rather than a story. I want everything around me to make me feel like I am really apart of that world, and what I do makes the story, instead of just following some story.
I mean, I remember in EQ, when just killing some guards, then becoming hated, the whole race, city would be after me, yelling insults, trying to kill me when I came near because of my actions. I went from ally to hated foe. Many other things that made me feel like I was apart of the world creating my own story. The epic quests also helped with this.
The more current MMOs, some give off this feel, but I think I lose that feeling with the quest based progression. It makes me feel like I'm following some poorly written story, while I should be involved, making the story. I don't know, its a bit hard to explain.
Take WoW, someone earlier mentioned that they felt part of the story. I got that sometimes too, but really only on some of the lengthy chains and epic type quests, like thunderfury. All those quests of get 10 rat ears, 3 spidor ichor, boar intestines, etc, detracted from the experience for me throughout, where I felt like I was doing drudgery, menial tasks, in a boring story. That and a few less options than past MMOs took away from the immersiveness for me. The funny thing is, WoW has an abundance of lore, but the gameplay took away from that as it led you down a story.
So, solid gameplay is a must, the world (lore) needs to be interesting to me if I want to be immersed, but it won't happen if I am doing menial tasks throughout the whole game.
I rather have a MMO with a deep lore, rather than a story. I want everything around me to make me feel like I am really apart of that world, and what I do makes the story, instead of just following some story.
I mean, I remember in EQ, when just killing some guards, then becoming hated, the whole race, city would be after me, yelling insults, trying to kill me when I came near because of my actions. I went from ally to hated foe. Many other things that made me feel like I was apart of the world creating my own story. The epic quests also helped with this.
The more current MMOs, some give off this feel, but I think I lose that feeling with the quest based progression. It makes me feel like I'm following some poorly written story, while I should be involved, making the story. I don't know, its a bit hard to explain.
Take WoW, someone earlier mentioned that they felt part of the story. I got that sometimes too, but really only on some of the lengthy chains and epic type quests, like thunderfury. All those quests of get 10 rat ears, 3 spidor ichor, boar intestines, etc, detracted from the experience for me throughout, where I felt like I was doing drudgery, menial tasks, in a boring story. That and a few less options than past MMOs took away from the immersiveness for me. The funny thing is, WoW has an abundance of lore, but the gameplay took away from that as it led you down a story.
So, solid gameplay is a must, the world (lore) needs to be interesting to me if I want to be immersed, but it won't happen if I am doing menial tasks throughout the whole game.
Well I thought deep lore was given when the worst "immersive" was said. :P Yeah I agree this is essential to an immersive story. But story combined with lore combined with everything else we love. See what I don't understand is everyone always says, "Well how about (subject X) over story, I rather have that." Why can't you have a story and that? I don't understand. :P
No It is because my editor is condensing all my paragraphs into one overdrawn jumble of separated ideas. It's terrible, isn't it? I am not saying they don't fit. Anyways, what affect did they have on the world and the player? Nothing, they just reset. Nothing was changed except your gear.
I would have to agree with you on this MisterSr. And what you posted previously, you are correct, the problem is that if you beat the Lich King how can it change anything for you? Or how can it change it for your guild? What about all those others that are left over that want to beat the Lich King themselves? How can they beat him if you beating it already closed the raid for everyone else?
There lies the other problem it is thousands of players on your server and a raid means that everyone gets it not just you, maybe the arc should while be something to do with the raid not be part of the whole story. And then the whole gear grind issue your stuck with the have to kill LK again next week cause you need your purples!
You can not have a true story when you have to grind out for gear, you can not have a true story when not everyone wants it, you can not have a story when the dev's start to make everything for those that dont care about the story at all.
No It is because my editor is condensing all my paragraphs into one overdrawn jumble of separated ideas. It's terrible, isn't it? I am not saying they don't fit. Anyways, what affect did they have on the world and the player? Nothing, they just reset. Nothing was changed except your gear.
I would have to agree with you on this MisterSr. And what you posted previously, you are correct, the problem is that if you beat the Lich King how can it change anything for you? Or how can it change it for your guild? What about all those others that are left over that want to beat the Lich King themselves? How can they beat him if you beating it already closed the raid for everyone else?
There lies the other problem it is thousands of players on your server and a raid means that everyone gets it not just you, maybe the arc should while be something to do with the raid not be part of the whole story. And then the whole gear grind issue your stuck with the have to kill LK again next week cause you need your purples!
You can not have a true story when you have to grind out for gear, you can not have a true story when not everyone wants it, you can not have a story when the dev's start to make everything for those that dont care about the story at all.
A simple solution would be make the Lick King ending a once per character event. Which then opens up instances, changes text for NPCs, and changes the way you interact with the world completely. From the instances opened you could then grind out your gear, since that game is so heavily gear dependent.
I rather have a MMO with a deep lore, rather than a story. I want everything around me to make me feel like I am really apart of that world, and what I do makes the story, instead of just following some story.
I mean, I remember in EQ, when just killing some guards, then becoming hated, the whole race, city would be after me, yelling insults, trying to kill me when I came near because of my actions. I went from ally to hated foe. Many other things that made me feel like I was apart of the world creating my own story. The epic quests also helped with this.
The more current MMOs, some give off this feel, but I think I lose that feeling with the quest based progression. It makes me feel like I'm following some poorly written story, while I should be involved, making the story. I don't know, its a bit hard to explain.
Take WoW, someone earlier mentioned that they felt part of the story. I got that sometimes too, but really only on some of the lengthy chains and epic type quests, like thunderfury. All those quests of get 10 rat ears, 3 spidor ichor, boar intestines, etc, detracted from the experience for me throughout, where I felt like I was doing drudgery, menial tasks, in a boring story. That and a few less options than past MMOs took away from the immersiveness for me. The funny thing is, WoW has an abundance of lore, but the gameplay took away from that as it led you down a story.
So, solid gameplay is a must, the world (lore) needs to be interesting to me if I want to be immersed, but it won't happen if I am doing menial tasks throughout the whole game.
Well I thought deep lore was given when the worst "immersive" was said. :P Yeah I agree this is essential to an immersive story. But story combined with lore combined with everything else we love. See what I don't understand is everyone always says, "Well how about (subject X) over story, I rather have that." Why can't you have a story and that? I don't understand. :P
Heh you would be surprised how often a game has a story, but the lore is lacking. I've found myself a couple times, huh, why are those people so scared? Heh could be the lore is in the story and story just sucks.
I can understand people saying, I rather have gameplay over story. I am sort of like that. I want gameplay, interesting lore, but not necessarily a story to follow. Lets say we both find a new MMO that comes out, and we both like the world, classes, the gameplay. But in that world, it has a strict structure, where we are being led down a story. You find the story enthralling, the nuances of your actions captivating. I on the other had, find the choices bland, the story unimaginative. We love the world, but differ on the story. You're going to keep playing, I will not.
I think maybe that is why people would want subject x over story, at least for me.
Oh, another example, that is not theoretical, hehe. A lot of people loved Dragon Age Origin. The world was kind of interesting, but I found the story boring, and often the choices were nothing I would do. There is a big difference between a srpg and MMO of course, but it just shows where a lot of people can like something, and I liked the world, just not the story. Unfortunately, an rpg is all about the story usually, so, kind of have to like it, lol. That is why I don't want my MMO to be all about the story, but about the interaction, the gameplay, the lore, my actions.
I rather have a MMO with a deep lore, rather than a story. I want everything around me to make me feel like I am really apart of that world, and what I do makes the story, instead of just following some story.
I mean, I remember in EQ, when just killing some guards, then becoming hated, the whole race, city would be after me, yelling insults, trying to kill me when I came near because of my actions. I went from ally to hated foe. Many other things that made me feel like I was apart of the world creating my own story. The epic quests also helped with this.
The more current MMOs, some give off this feel, but I think I lose that feeling with the quest based progression. It makes me feel like I'm following some poorly written story, while I should be involved, making the story. I don't know, its a bit hard to explain.
Take WoW, someone earlier mentioned that they felt part of the story. I got that sometimes too, but really only on some of the lengthy chains and epic type quests, like thunderfury. All those quests of get 10 rat ears, 3 spidor ichor, boar intestines, etc, detracted from the experience for me throughout, where I felt like I was doing drudgery, menial tasks, in a boring story. That and a few less options than past MMOs took away from the immersiveness for me. The funny thing is, WoW has an abundance of lore, but the gameplay took away from that as it led you down a story.
So, solid gameplay is a must, the world (lore) needs to be interesting to me if I want to be immersed, but it won't happen if I am doing menial tasks throughout the whole game.
Well I thought deep lore was given when the worst "immersive" was said. :P Yeah I agree this is essential to an immersive story. But story combined with lore combined with everything else we love. See what I don't understand is everyone always says, "Well how about (subject X) over story, I rather have that." Why can't you have a story and that? I don't understand. :P
Heh you would be surprised how often a game has a story, but the lore is lacking. I've found myself a couple times, huh, why are those people so scared? Heh could be the lore is in the story and story just sucks.
I can understand people saying, I rather have gameplay over story. I am sort of like that. I want gameplay, interesting lore, but not necessarily a story to follow. Lets say we both find a new MMO that comes out, and we both like the world, classes, the gameplay. But in that world, it has a strict structure, where we are being led down a story. You find the story enthralling, the nuances of your actions captivating. I on the other had, find the choices bland, the story unimaginative. We love the world, but differ on the story. You're going to keep playing, I will not.
I think maybe that is why people would want subject x over story, at least for me.
Oh, another example, that is not theoretical, hehe. A lot of people loved Dragon Age Origin. The world was kind of interesting, but I found the story boring, and often the choices were nothing I would do. There is a big difference between a srpg and MMO of course, but it just shows where a lot of people can like something, and I liked the world, just not the story. Unfortunately, an rpg is all about the story usually, so, kind of have to like it, lol. That is why I don't want my MMO to be all about the story, but about the interaction, the gameplay, the lore, my actions.
again, you failed to see my point. :P If no one has done this successfully, why can't they do it in the future. The problem with the industry is that it has become so linear minded, inside the box. There is a world outside of that box where things can come together beautifully. Example, using TES again (by the way this would make a fantastic MMO) this game combines both story and lore beautifully, having some of the most detailed lore of any game I have ever played. But it also has a story line that draws from the lore, and expounds upon it. No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. Before that they were just part of the plethora of lore that exists in TES universe (Books, shrines, random NPC chatter, statues, ect.). Now imagine extensive lore like that with a story that draws from in, but in an MMO. Now wouldn't that game just be beautiful.
Vynt agree with most of what you said, hence where my 2 cents come in from before. Some people dont care about a story, while its not that they dont care its just that it is secondary to them. While others they want it on the forefront. And again my argument that you are dealing with an MMO and its not an RPG with just one person in it, so a story arc around you as a player is just not going to happen, it becomes linear when you are a particular race then a particular job. And then you have whole go here to continue your job story so you get lumped in with everyone else, so I guess one way to fix it is that each race and job should have something different in the end to bring out the story as the OP wants. But then again the story should have Lore to it, you can not make up your own thing as you go, this is just not a possibility since each person would have a radical new chain of events and change everything for everyone else, who does not want what you want.
So you are stuck with a world that will no change much, I guess with GW2 the randomness of it all, and the choices you make actually effect the world at large. I like the way they are going about it, but the script does not have enless story to it, it will loop back on itself and you will have the same issue that some say exist to begin wtih. I dont know maybe some one will get it right where you have good lore and the people that play it enjoy it.
Maybe they should have more to the quest system, it does tend to suck, every MMO you are stuck killing 10 rats and stuff, probably what should happen is that if you accept a quest and decide to not do it, it will have repercussions that way people get the story they want, you tell a guy sure I will kill them 10 rats for you and then your like nah I am not doing it so you drop the quest. Well that should have repercussions, like the guy that gave you the quest goes and tells everyone about it and they give you crap about it lol. Like why should I give you anything if you cant do something as simple as kill 10 rats. And those quest that you just dropped should no longer allow you to get them back or any follow on quest that said NPC was going to give you.
While the whole kill 10 rats thing sucks well, how is a person suppose to trust you and give you something that is worth it if you cant do something as simple as be the orcin man? And this should follow you everywhere in town, every quest giver should be linked and they should only give you certain quest if you did a certain quest. Like you killed the 10 rats, well the other quest givers should be like hey your the one that helped so and so with the whole 10 rats things, I know those sucks but I got something better you can do for me or something. Everything should be linked and I mean everything if you want a more emersive story world.
again, you failed to see my point. :P If no one has done this successfully, why can't they do it in the future. The problem with the industry is that it has become so linear minded, inside the box. There is a world outside of that box where things can come together beautifully. Example, using TES again (by the way this would make a fantastic MMO) this game combines both story and lore beautifully, having some of the most detailed lore of any game I have ever played. But it also has a story line that draws from the lore, and expounds upon it. No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. Before that they were just part of the plethora of lore that exists in TES universe (Books, shrines, random NPC chatter, statues, ect.). Now imagine extensive lore like that with a story that draws from in, but in an MMO. Now wouldn't that game just be beautiful.
Heh, I got your point, and an exceptional story that draws from lore is ideal. My point was I might not like the story, lol. A lot of other people might not like the story. They might like world, the lore, but not the story. The only analogy atm I can think of, is I really like the Star Trek universe, but there were episodes (stories) that I couldn't stand, while others I didn't want to end.
Maybe I am just jaded too about what kind of story I would get in an MMO. I just see myself following some strict path with decisions I don't care for and not something open ended. Hmm, I think I see where my distinction between story and lore is. If the story is open ended, a wide variety of choices, not a set path, thats more of a lore to me and me making my own story.
I guess that is why I say I don't want a story, just lore, and let me make my own with the lore provided.
Hmm, also, I think we are having slightly differeing definitions, lol. Your part about No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. To me, while that is a story being told, and you're part of that story interacting in I guess era, I would just consider that lore.
Lore is the story of the world, and there are stories in that world, but I don't to follow a storyline, just be a apart of that world, that lore aka story.
Vynt agree with most of what you said, hence where my 2 cents come in from before. Some people dont care about a story, while its not that they dont care its just that it is secondary to them. While others they want it on the forefront. And again my argument that you are dealing with an MMO and its not an RPG with just one person in it, so a story arc around you as a player is just not going to happen, it becomes linear when you are a particular race then a particular job. And then you have whole go here to continue your job story so you get lumped in with everyone else, so I guess one way to fix it is that each race and job should have something different in the end to bring out the story as the OP wants. But then again the story should have Lore to it, you can not make up your own thing as you go, this is just not a possibility since each person would have a radical new chain of events and change everything for everyone else, who does not want what you want.
So you are stuck with a world that will no change much, I guess with GW2 the randomness of it all, and the choices you make actually effect the world at large. I like the way they are going about it, but the script does not have enless story to it, it will loop back on itself and you will have the same issue that some say exist to begin wtih. I dont know maybe some one will get it right where you have good lore and the people that play it enjoy it.
Maybe they should have more to the quest system, it does tend to suck, every MMO you are stuck killing 10 rats and stuff, probably what should happen is that if you accept a quest and decide to not do it, it will have repercussions that way people get the story they want, you tell a guy sure I will kill them 10 rats for you and then your like nah I am not doing it so you drop the quest. Well that should have repercussions, like the guy that gave you the quest goes and tells everyone about it and they give you crap about it lol. Like why should I give you anything if you cant do something as simple as kill 10 rats. And those quest that you just dropped should no longer allow you to get them back or any follow on quest that said NPC was going to give you.
While the whole kill 10 rats thing sucks well, how is a person suppose to trust you and give you something that is worth it if you cant do something as simple as be the orcin man? And this should follow you everywhere in town, every quest giver should be linked and they should only give you certain quest if you did a certain quest. Like you killed the 10 rats, well the other quest givers should be like hey your the one that helped so and so with the whole 10 rats things, I know those sucks but I got something better you can do for me or something. Everything should be linked and I mean everything if you want a more emersive story world.
What you said in your last 2 paragraphs, well I'm not a huge quest person, but I think I would love to play a game like that. My choices would have consequences. I agree about a person not knowing to trust you so you kill 10 rats, but usually thats it, or its 10 boars after that.
I want multiple paths to reach various epic questlines too, so not everyone in boxed into the same, you must do these quests from these people, then these, if you want to get the ultimate quests for the epic weapon shadowslayer.
I'd like the opportunity to completely ruin my standing with the "good" races, cities, where I have to sneak into the underground. Instead of proving my valor exterminating bandits and saving damsels, I want to be able to assassinate a prince instead, save a damsel if it suits my whim, intimidate the questgiver if he won't give me a quest since I didn't prove myself to him, gather info through other means to reach a chance at that epic sword through a much different path.
That quest system, would have to have a ton of options, choices, everything connected like you said, and the world in general would have to have a lot of choices too. I guess that game would be a sandbox, or maybe just nonlinear, lot of variety, choices.
In this instance, people would be making their own story, not following one, even though they are a part of a story. Hmm, yes, I think this is what I want, lol
Vynt agree with most of what you said, hence where my 2 cents come in from before. Some people dont care about a story, while its not that they dont care its just that it is secondary to them. While others they want it on the forefront. And again my argument that you are dealing with an MMO and its not an RPG with just one person in it, so a story arc around you as a player is just not going to happen, it becomes linear when you are a particular race then a particular job. And then you have whole go here to continue your job story so you get lumped in with everyone else, so I guess one way to fix it is that each race and job should have something different in the end to bring out the story as the OP wants. But then again the story should have Lore to it, you can not make up your own thing as you go, this is just not a possibility since each person would have a radical new chain of events and change everything for everyone else, who does not want what you want.
So you are stuck with a world that will no change much, I guess with GW2 the randomness of it all, and the choices you make actually effect the world at large. I like the way they are going about it, but the script does not have enless story to it, it will loop back on itself and you will have the same issue that some say exist to begin wtih. I dont know maybe some one will get it right where you have good lore and the people that play it enjoy it.
Maybe they should have more to the quest system, it does tend to suck, every MMO you are stuck killing 10 rats and stuff, probably what should happen is that if you accept a quest and decide to not do it, it will have repercussions that way people get the story they want, you tell a guy sure I will kill them 10 rats for you and then your like nah I am not doing it so you drop the quest. Well that should have repercussions, like the guy that gave you the quest goes and tells everyone about it and they give you crap about it lol. Like why should I give you anything if you cant do something as simple as kill 10 rats. And those quest that you just dropped should no longer allow you to get them back or any follow on quest that said NPC was going to give you.
While the whole kill 10 rats thing sucks well, how is a person suppose to trust you and give you something that is worth it if you cant do something as simple as be the orcin man? And this should follow you everywhere in town, every quest giver should be linked and they should only give you certain quest if you did a certain quest. Like you killed the 10 rats, well the other quest givers should be like hey your the one that helped so and so with the whole 10 rats things, I know those sucks but I got something better you can do for me or something. Everything should be linked and I mean everything if you want a more emersive story world.
What you said in your last 2 paragraphs, well I'm not a huge quest person, but I think I would love to play a game like that. My choices would have consequences. I agree about a person not knowing to trust you so you kill 10 rats, but usually thats it, or its 10 boars after that.
I want multiple paths to reach various epic questlines too, so not everyone in boxed into the same, you must do these quests from these people, then these, if you want to get the ultimate quests for the epic weapon shadowslayer.
I'd like the opportunity to completely ruin my standing with the "good" races, cities, where I have to sneak into the underground. Instead of proving my valor exterminating bandits and saving damsels, I want to be able to assassinate a prince instead, save a damsel if it suits my whim, intimidate the questgiver if he won't give me a quest since I didn't prove myself to him, gather info through other means to reach a chance at that epic sword through a much different path.
That quest system, would have to have a ton of options, choices, everything connected like you said, and the world in general would have to have a lot of choices too. I guess that game would be a sandbox, or maybe just nonlinear, lot of variety, choices.
In this instance, people would be making their own story, not following one, even though they are a part of a story. Hmm, yes, I think this is what I want, lol
Basically what I'm trying to say as well. Unfortunately the gaming industry has gotten exceedingly narrow minded.
again, you failed to see my point. :P If no one has done this successfully, why can't they do it in the future. The problem with the industry is that it has become so linear minded, inside the box. There is a world outside of that box where things can come together beautifully. Example, using TES again (by the way this would make a fantastic MMO) this game combines both story and lore beautifully, having some of the most detailed lore of any game I have ever played. But it also has a story line that draws from the lore, and expounds upon it. No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. Before that they were just part of the plethora of lore that exists in TES universe (Books, shrines, random NPC chatter, statues, ect.). Now imagine extensive lore like that with a story that draws from in, but in an MMO. Now wouldn't that game just be beautiful.
Heh, I got your point, and an exceptional story that draws from lore is ideal. My point was I might not like the story, lol. A lot of other people might not like the story. They might like world, the lore, but not the story. The only analogy atm I can think of, is I really like the Star Trek universe, but there were episodes (stories) that I couldn't stand, while others I didn't want to end.
Maybe I am just jaded too about what kind of story I would get in an MMO. I just see myself following some strict path with decisions I don't care for and not something open ended. Hmm, I think I see where my distinction between story and lore is. If the story is open ended, a wide variety of choices, not a set path, thats more of a lore to me and me making my own story.
I guess that is why I say I don't want a story, just lore, and let me make my own with the lore provided.
Hmm, also, I think we are having slightly differeing definitions, lol. Your part about No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. To me, while that is a story being told, and you're part of that story interacting in I guess era, I would just consider that lore.
Lore is the story of the world, and there are stories in that world, but I don't to follow a storyline, just be a apart of that world, that lore aka story.
Well that is story of the world, 9 daedric princes, before that he was just one of the 9. He has his followers, yada yada. I am saying before that he was just lore. His story was just lore. His temples were just lore, his shrines, the books, the statues. Everything was JUST lore. Then they tied the lore into the game. Miscarand used to be the capital city of the old cyrodiil, you are sent there to retrieve an ancient item for the summoning of the paradise gate. Miscarand had a complex history and story behind it which those seeking a richer experience could delve into, but didn't have to. Tying story into lore, it was nice.
Vynt agree with most of what you said, hence where my 2 cents come in from before. Some people dont care about a story, while its not that they dont care its just that it is secondary to them. While others they want it on the forefront. And again my argument that you are dealing with an MMO and its not an RPG with just one person in it, so a story arc around you as a player is just not going to happen, it becomes linear when you are a particular race then a particular job. And then you have whole go here to continue your job story so you get lumped in with everyone else, so I guess one way to fix it is that each race and job should have something different in the end to bring out the story as the OP wants. But then again the story should have Lore to it, you can not make up your own thing as you go, this is just not a possibility since each person would have a radical new chain of events and change everything for everyone else, who does not want what you want.
So you are stuck with a world that will no change much, I guess with GW2 the randomness of it all, and the choices you make actually effect the world at large. I like the way they are going about it, but the script does not have enless story to it, it will loop back on itself and you will have the same issue that some say exist to begin wtih. I dont know maybe some one will get it right where you have good lore and the people that play it enjoy it.
Maybe they should have more to the quest system, it does tend to suck, every MMO you are stuck killing 10 rats and stuff, probably what should happen is that if you accept a quest and decide to not do it, it will have repercussions that way people get the story they want, you tell a guy sure I will kill them 10 rats for you and then your like nah I am not doing it so you drop the quest. Well that should have repercussions, like the guy that gave you the quest goes and tells everyone about it and they give you crap about it lol. Like why should I give you anything if you cant do something as simple as kill 10 rats. And those quest that you just dropped should no longer allow you to get them back or any follow on quest that said NPC was going to give you.
While the whole kill 10 rats thing sucks well, how is a person suppose to trust you and give you something that is worth it if you cant do something as simple as be the orcin man? And this should follow you everywhere in town, every quest giver should be linked and they should only give you certain quest if you did a certain quest. Like you killed the 10 rats, well the other quest givers should be like hey your the one that helped so and so with the whole 10 rats things, I know those sucks but I got something better you can do for me or something. Everything should be linked and I mean everything if you want a more emersive story world.
What you said in your last 2 paragraphs, well I'm not a huge quest person, but I think I would love to play a game like that. My choices would have consequences. I agree about a person not knowing to trust you so you kill 10 rats, but usually thats it, or its 10 boars after that.
I want multiple paths to reach various epic questlines too, so not everyone in boxed into the same, you must do these quests from these people, then these, if you want to get the ultimate quests for the epic weapon shadowslayer.
I'd like the opportunity to completely ruin my standing with the "good" races, cities, where I have to sneak into the underground. Instead of proving my valor exterminating bandits and saving damsels, I want to be able to assassinate a prince instead, save a damsel if it suits my whim, intimidate the questgiver if he won't give me a quest since I didn't prove myself to him, gather info through other means to reach a chance at that epic sword through a much different path.
That quest system, would have to have a ton of options, choices, everything connected like you said, and the world in general would have to have a lot of choices too. I guess that game would be a sandbox, or maybe just nonlinear, lot of variety, choices.
In this instance, people would be making their own story, not following one, even though they are a part of a story. Hmm, yes, I think this is what I want, lol
Basically what I'm trying to say as well. Unfortunately the gaming industry has gotten exceedingly narrow minded.
Heh, ya I think we were talking about the same thing just about, but saying it differently with having slightly different meanings. Sorry for being so difficult, lol.
This had a nice progression for me though. I was able to expand and refine some ideas in what I am looking for. I also realized another reason I said I would just rather have good gameplay in an interesting world over story, because I don't really think anyone would succeed, ruin the otherwise good game for me. I would rather settle for something I would at least have fun in than have that.
I won't expect that ideal to come around so I won't be dissapointed as each game fails it, but just enjoy the games for what they are, and be pleasantly surprised when I find that 1 MMO that has everything I am looking for and more.
Plenty of MMOs have immersive stories. YOU are the one missing the immersive stories when you quickly click the 'accept quest' button then rush off to the marked location to do whatever you think needs done.
Guild Wars and LOTRO have two of the best immersive stories I have seen in MMOs.
^^^^^^^^^^^
The only thing that messes with the immersion in LotRO's epic story is that by the time you level and get to the end, you've forgotten the significance of some of the characters along the way, due to the time it takes. It's like taking months to read a book, when the characters introduced in the first chapter really matter.
Can't blame 'em for that. Ya either make levelling nearly instant, or you remove the "epic" from the epic story. Either way, it's probably why most MMO's have their stories begin and end in one area, involving maybe 10-20 hours of gameplay.
Either way, OP, some MMO's have immersive stories.
I'd rate an immersive world much higher than an immersive story.
this
UO didnt have quests yet it always offered something fun and engaging to do
I agree, and it was the freedom that was allowed because UO had a much smaller gap between maxed characters and less than maxed characters. Outside of that, UO had a marvelous world to play in, so you had many, many choices, no matter what level of skill you were. You could go to any dungeon, any part of the world, and try your hand at it. Of course, lower levels of dungeons were harder, and you stood a better chance if you were maxed out, but that didn't stop a lot of lesser characters from going anyways, if they wanted to.
As far as immersive story, what I'd like to see is a game like UO was, and then have the GMs play out evil (and good) characters. A GM could play an evil Dragon, and recruit a cult of players, and have a goal in mind for a long term storyline. And let it play out. If players kill this evil Dragon, then it's gone and defeated. Otherwise, this Evil Dragon keeps at it, maybe even achiving it's goals, and still being played out. I'd like to see stories like this have meaning, change the world. And leave it to the players to determine how that story plays out, what happens, etc.
I think that would be a much more immersive story than what these games offer now. You can't really affect the story in any of these games. You might be able to determine that 'A' or 'B' happens, but you can sense the predetermined aspects of that.
Plenty of MMOs have immersive stories. YOU are the one missing the immersive stories when you quickly click the 'accept quest' button then rush off to the marked location to do whatever you think needs done.
Guild Wars and LOTRO have two of the best immersive stories I have seen in MMOs.
^^^^^^^^^^^
The only thing that messes with the immersion in LotRO's epic story is that by the time you level and get to the end, you've forgotten the significance of some of the characters along the way, due to the time it takes. It's like taking months to read a book, when the characters introduced in the first chapter really matter.
Can't blame 'em for that. Ya either make levelling nearly instant, or you remove the "epic" from the epic story. Either way, it's probably why most MMO's have their stories begin and end in one area, involving maybe 10-20 hours of gameplay.
Either way, OP, some MMO's have immersive stories.
TBH, I think it did take me moths to read those books. LOL!!!
Damn, after reading the Hobit at a younger age I thought the LOTR was going to be just as good. Felt like reading a history book on the walk of my life by Bilbo Baggins. Wow was it just boring.
And to quote a famous line from a movie ( at least I think it is a quote ) "All that movie was about was walking. Everyone walked in that movie. Hell, even the trees freakin walked in that movie!" - Clerks 2
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
I might have to try out FF on this go round. It does look interesting tho, I may not have the time and effort to put into it that appears it needs to be successfull.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Comments
How bout gameplay and story? Win?
Then you have the issue of those that rush through it all because some other ahole decided to rush through it so since you cant be left behind you do the same thing and the next person does the same thing.
I bring up WoW again, BC comes out everyone rushes to 70 and starts raiding, how are you suppose to get into the story if your guild bust your balls because they need your leet heals or your leet tanking or your leet DPS. You end up rushing through the game and skip the story. WotLK comes out and everyone rushes to 80 and then complain because there is nothing to do, well hello mcfly you skipped the damn story. First guy that dinged 80 on my server was this druid, he did it in like 3 days, come on do you really think he care's about the story? No he does not, he wants to get to end game because everyone thinks that everything really begins at end game.
I belive that what they should do is that end game raiding should start off right off the bat, have your 5 man dungeons but also have your 10 man raids that way bam new expansion end game starts and your not rushing to get to 'End Game.' One of the issue I saw with WotLK was that everyone rushed through it and most people where raiding and killing the raid two weeks after the expansion came out. And again agreed that the story is not that emersive, but then again how much story do you truely see if you get to end game 2 weeks after the game came out?
So I guess in conclusion the whole end game thing ruins the story that you want and PVP ruins the story that you want, if they can truely incorporate both of those things into the story then you can have a more emersive story.
Stories are like gold.
Every person has a unique story in real life. It is what defines us, sets us apart and makes us unique. It is the bar to who and what we relate to.
A person who is born into a middle class family with 3 siblings, whose parents divorce at 10, gets into trouble with the law, and has a hard life, has a different story to a person born into a rich family stable family.
The troubled one relates to others who are troubled, listens to alternate music, finds solace in stories of those who build success from nothing.
The rich one relates to others of privileged background, listens to classical music and finds solace in those who build business empires.
I don't want to get too far into this social upbringing analogy, but needless to say, what we bring to the table is ourselves. Our stories if you will.
Now in context of a game, our stories that we experience sets who we represent as our avatar.
In a single player game, without the influence of others, we are isolated. We can closely relate to the protagonist and immerse ourselves in the story of the game because it feels like a unique experience. This isolation allows for a suspension of belief and allows us to step in the shoes of a fantasy character or world, and enjoy something different and without ourselves.
Novels are similar in respect, apart from our influences to who we can relate to and enjoy. Again because of our life story. This is why authors have such a large diverse readerships. Quality of writing non-withstanding.
When we play in a massively multi-player game, the belief is hard to suspend with others who whiz though the same story jumping around. We feel like clones of each other. With the same story.
Without this suspension of belief, it is hard to be immersed in the story of our character. Thus we feel disillusioned with our game.
We all want a unique story to represent our character, our avatar, our protagonist. So we can relate to others, mayhap in a tavern, over an imaginary mug of mead. To swap stories, to realize we had different unique experiences and find commonality. A sense of realism and community in a mmorpg world.
I think developers are limited to the tools of our times and the limits of our computer hardware. Making stories more complex, with alternate endings and random and diverse plot lines, even down to the simplest quest, would be a scripting nightmare.
We can bemoan our low standards in the industry and demand more quality, but time will fix this problem. Computers will get faster, better, cheaper, and developers can push the limits of what consumer hardware can do.
Eventually we will get the quality stories that we yearn for. Just not right now.
Dear OP,
Why do you hate paragraphs? Is it because they are responsible for all those bad storyless MMOs you just mentioned? Is it because they made WoW in a way that the Raids and dungeons don't fit into the story line, like how Magister's Terrace and Sunwell Plateau DON'T fit with the story of Isle of Quel'Danas AT ALL?
Stop hating paragraphs, they're people too.
Now about the content of your post, what are you trying to say? It looks like a string of random sentences, with no single coherent thought. The MMOs you called storyless, with just a bunch of "go from point a to b then bring it back to me", make more sense.
Sorry for the repeat back to back replies, but I want to reply to all this. :P The reason many people are unconcerned with stories is because they have absolutely no effect on the actual world. My guild killed lich king in ICC, there was a crazy movie. Yes there was an apparent story there, did i feel obligated to pay attention? Not really i just wanted to move on and get my gear. Why? Because in the end it had no effect on the actual world, I walked out of ICC nothing had changed and the Lich King was once again sitting at the top of ICC waiting for us to kill him, yet again. There was very little attempt to carry that story from the very beginning to end (The DK starter area does not count). And in the end you have to grind your way all the way to 80, and it is a very apparent grind. You don't care about the quests, how do they affect you except by giving you experience? They don't, so you don't pay attention. Now I am not saying get rid of repeatable instances, that is not what I am saying, but if something is going to be the main story. Make it the main story. Make fun side quests, interesting activities, other unrelated instances, other things to do on the side to gather gear. Maybe even a mini game for the crafting system that would affect overall quality of the goods you are making and actually require some mastery. But leave the main story to be the main story, make it permanent and have a true effect on the player and their overall experience.
No It is because my editor is condensing all my paragraphs into one overdrawn jumble of separated ideas. It's terrible, isn't it? I am not saying they don't fit. Anyways, what affect did they have on the world and the player? Nothing, they just reset. Nothing was changed except your gear.
They have games like that and they fall into all sorts of categories, from puzzle games like Peggle, racing games like Need For Speed and fighting games like Mortal Kombat. What you are missing is that these are MMORPGs and the last three letters of that acronym that aren't a 's' are 'rpg': role-playing game. Story is absolutely integral to a quality RPG, whether it be just a RPG, a MRPG, MORPG or MMORPG, gameplay can differ but story is vital. If you want to say that gameplay is greater-than story in MMOGs generally speaking, well, you may be right. But, as far as MMORPGs are concerned, your utterly fallacious opinion has been exposed.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I rather have a MMO with a deep lore, rather than a story. I want everything around me to make me feel like I am really apart of that world, and what I do makes the story, instead of just following some story.
I mean, I remember in EQ, when just killing some guards, then becoming hated, the whole race, city would be after me, yelling insults, trying to kill me when I came near because of my actions. I went from ally to hated foe. Many other things that made me feel like I was apart of the world creating my own story. The epic quests also helped with this.
The more current MMOs, some give off this feel, but I think I lose that feeling with the quest based progression. It makes me feel like I'm following some poorly written story, while I should be involved, making the story. I don't know, its a bit hard to explain.
Take WoW, someone earlier mentioned that they felt part of the story. I got that sometimes too, but really only on some of the lengthy chains and epic type quests, like thunderfury. All those quests of get 10 rat ears, 3 spidor ichor, boar intestines, etc, detracted from the experience for me throughout, where I felt like I was doing drudgery, menial tasks, in a boring story. That and a few less options than past MMOs took away from the immersiveness for me. The funny thing is, WoW has an abundance of lore, but the gameplay took away from that as it led you down a story.
So, solid gameplay is a must, the world (lore) needs to be interesting to me if I want to be immersed, but it won't happen if I am doing menial tasks throughout the whole game.
Well I thought deep lore was given when the worst "immersive" was said. :P Yeah I agree this is essential to an immersive story. But story combined with lore combined with everything else we love. See what I don't understand is everyone always says, "Well how about (subject X) over story, I rather have that." Why can't you have a story and that? I don't understand. :P
I would have to agree with you on this MisterSr. And what you posted previously, you are correct, the problem is that if you beat the Lich King how can it change anything for you? Or how can it change it for your guild? What about all those others that are left over that want to beat the Lich King themselves? How can they beat him if you beating it already closed the raid for everyone else?
There lies the other problem it is thousands of players on your server and a raid means that everyone gets it not just you, maybe the arc should while be something to do with the raid not be part of the whole story. And then the whole gear grind issue your stuck with the have to kill LK again next week cause you need your purples!
You can not have a true story when you have to grind out for gear, you can not have a true story when not everyone wants it, you can not have a story when the dev's start to make everything for those that dont care about the story at all.
A simple solution would be make the Lick King ending a once per character event. Which then opens up instances, changes text for NPCs, and changes the way you interact with the world completely. From the instances opened you could then grind out your gear, since that game is so heavily gear dependent.
Heh you would be surprised how often a game has a story, but the lore is lacking. I've found myself a couple times, huh, why are those people so scared? Heh could be the lore is in the story and story just sucks.
I can understand people saying, I rather have gameplay over story. I am sort of like that. I want gameplay, interesting lore, but not necessarily a story to follow. Lets say we both find a new MMO that comes out, and we both like the world, classes, the gameplay. But in that world, it has a strict structure, where we are being led down a story. You find the story enthralling, the nuances of your actions captivating. I on the other had, find the choices bland, the story unimaginative. We love the world, but differ on the story. You're going to keep playing, I will not.
I think maybe that is why people would want subject x over story, at least for me.
Oh, another example, that is not theoretical, hehe. A lot of people loved Dragon Age Origin. The world was kind of interesting, but I found the story boring, and often the choices were nothing I would do. There is a big difference between a srpg and MMO of course, but it just shows where a lot of people can like something, and I liked the world, just not the story. Unfortunately, an rpg is all about the story usually, so, kind of have to like it, lol. That is why I don't want my MMO to be all about the story, but about the interaction, the gameplay, the lore, my actions.
again, you failed to see my point. :P If no one has done this successfully, why can't they do it in the future. The problem with the industry is that it has become so linear minded, inside the box. There is a world outside of that box where things can come together beautifully. Example, using TES again (by the way this would make a fantastic MMO) this game combines both story and lore beautifully, having some of the most detailed lore of any game I have ever played. But it also has a story line that draws from the lore, and expounds upon it. No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. Before that they were just part of the plethora of lore that exists in TES universe (Books, shrines, random NPC chatter, statues, ect.). Now imagine extensive lore like that with a story that draws from in, but in an MMO. Now wouldn't that game just be beautiful.
Vynt agree with most of what you said, hence where my 2 cents come in from before. Some people dont care about a story, while its not that they dont care its just that it is secondary to them. While others they want it on the forefront. And again my argument that you are dealing with an MMO and its not an RPG with just one person in it, so a story arc around you as a player is just not going to happen, it becomes linear when you are a particular race then a particular job. And then you have whole go here to continue your job story so you get lumped in with everyone else, so I guess one way to fix it is that each race and job should have something different in the end to bring out the story as the OP wants. But then again the story should have Lore to it, you can not make up your own thing as you go, this is just not a possibility since each person would have a radical new chain of events and change everything for everyone else, who does not want what you want.
So you are stuck with a world that will no change much, I guess with GW2 the randomness of it all, and the choices you make actually effect the world at large. I like the way they are going about it, but the script does not have enless story to it, it will loop back on itself and you will have the same issue that some say exist to begin wtih. I dont know maybe some one will get it right where you have good lore and the people that play it enjoy it.
Maybe they should have more to the quest system, it does tend to suck, every MMO you are stuck killing 10 rats and stuff, probably what should happen is that if you accept a quest and decide to not do it, it will have repercussions that way people get the story they want, you tell a guy sure I will kill them 10 rats for you and then your like nah I am not doing it so you drop the quest. Well that should have repercussions, like the guy that gave you the quest goes and tells everyone about it and they give you crap about it lol. Like why should I give you anything if you cant do something as simple as kill 10 rats. And those quest that you just dropped should no longer allow you to get them back or any follow on quest that said NPC was going to give you.
While the whole kill 10 rats thing sucks well, how is a person suppose to trust you and give you something that is worth it if you cant do something as simple as be the orcin man? And this should follow you everywhere in town, every quest giver should be linked and they should only give you certain quest if you did a certain quest. Like you killed the 10 rats, well the other quest givers should be like hey your the one that helped so and so with the whole 10 rats things, I know those sucks but I got something better you can do for me or something. Everything should be linked and I mean everything if you want a more emersive story world.
Heh, I got your point, and an exceptional story that draws from lore is ideal. My point was I might not like the story, lol. A lot of other people might not like the story. They might like world, the lore, but not the story. The only analogy atm I can think of, is I really like the Star Trek universe, but there were episodes (stories) that I couldn't stand, while others I didn't want to end.
Maybe I am just jaded too about what kind of story I would get in an MMO. I just see myself following some strict path with decisions I don't care for and not something open ended. Hmm, I think I see where my distinction between story and lore is. If the story is open ended, a wide variety of choices, not a set path, thats more of a lore to me and me making my own story.
I guess that is why I say I don't want a story, just lore, and let me make my own with the lore provided.
Hmm, also, I think we are having slightly differeing definitions, lol. Your part about No one knew about Sheogorath, who he was, nor did they know his relation with Jyggalag until low and behold they released the Shivering Isles. To me, while that is a story being told, and you're part of that story interacting in I guess era, I would just consider that lore.
Lore is the story of the world, and there are stories in that world, but I don't to follow a storyline, just be a apart of that world, that lore aka story.
What you said in your last 2 paragraphs, well I'm not a huge quest person, but I think I would love to play a game like that. My choices would have consequences. I agree about a person not knowing to trust you so you kill 10 rats, but usually thats it, or its 10 boars after that.
I want multiple paths to reach various epic questlines too, so not everyone in boxed into the same, you must do these quests from these people, then these, if you want to get the ultimate quests for the epic weapon shadowslayer.
I'd like the opportunity to completely ruin my standing with the "good" races, cities, where I have to sneak into the underground. Instead of proving my valor exterminating bandits and saving damsels, I want to be able to assassinate a prince instead, save a damsel if it suits my whim, intimidate the questgiver if he won't give me a quest since I didn't prove myself to him, gather info through other means to reach a chance at that epic sword through a much different path.
That quest system, would have to have a ton of options, choices, everything connected like you said, and the world in general would have to have a lot of choices too. I guess that game would be a sandbox, or maybe just nonlinear, lot of variety, choices.
In this instance, people would be making their own story, not following one, even though they are a part of a story. Hmm, yes, I think this is what I want, lol
Basically what I'm trying to say as well. Unfortunately the gaming industry has gotten exceedingly narrow minded.
Well that is story of the world, 9 daedric princes, before that he was just one of the 9. He has his followers, yada yada. I am saying before that he was just lore. His story was just lore. His temples were just lore, his shrines, the books, the statues. Everything was JUST lore. Then they tied the lore into the game. Miscarand used to be the capital city of the old cyrodiil, you are sent there to retrieve an ancient item for the summoning of the paradise gate. Miscarand had a complex history and story behind it which those seeking a richer experience could delve into, but didn't have to. Tying story into lore, it was nice.
Heh, ya I think we were talking about the same thing just about, but saying it differently with having slightly different meanings. Sorry for being so difficult, lol.
This had a nice progression for me though. I was able to expand and refine some ideas in what I am looking for. I also realized another reason I said I would just rather have good gameplay in an interesting world over story, because I don't really think anyone would succeed, ruin the otherwise good game for me. I would rather settle for something I would at least have fun in than have that.
I won't expect that ideal to come around so I won't be dissapointed as each game fails it, but just enjoy the games for what they are, and be pleasantly surprised when I find that 1 MMO that has everything I am looking for and more.
this
UO didnt have quests yet it always offered something fun and engaging to do
^^^^^^^^^^^
The only thing that messes with the immersion in LotRO's epic story is that by the time you level and get to the end, you've forgotten the significance of some of the characters along the way, due to the time it takes. It's like taking months to read a book, when the characters introduced in the first chapter really matter.
Can't blame 'em for that. Ya either make levelling nearly instant, or you remove the "epic" from the epic story. Either way, it's probably why most MMO's have their stories begin and end in one area, involving maybe 10-20 hours of gameplay.
Either way, OP, some MMO's have immersive stories.
I agree, and it was the freedom that was allowed because UO had a much smaller gap between maxed characters and less than maxed characters. Outside of that, UO had a marvelous world to play in, so you had many, many choices, no matter what level of skill you were. You could go to any dungeon, any part of the world, and try your hand at it. Of course, lower levels of dungeons were harder, and you stood a better chance if you were maxed out, but that didn't stop a lot of lesser characters from going anyways, if they wanted to.
As far as immersive story, what I'd like to see is a game like UO was, and then have the GMs play out evil (and good) characters. A GM could play an evil Dragon, and recruit a cult of players, and have a goal in mind for a long term storyline. And let it play out. If players kill this evil Dragon, then it's gone and defeated. Otherwise, this Evil Dragon keeps at it, maybe even achiving it's goals, and still being played out. I'd like to see stories like this have meaning, change the world. And leave it to the players to determine how that story plays out, what happens, etc.
I think that would be a much more immersive story than what these games offer now. You can't really affect the story in any of these games. You might be able to determine that 'A' or 'B' happens, but you can sense the predetermined aspects of that.
Once upon a time....
TBH, I think it did take me moths to read those books. LOL!!!
Damn, after reading the Hobit at a younger age I thought the LOTR was going to be just as good. Felt like reading a history book on the walk of my life by Bilbo Baggins. Wow was it just boring.
And to quote a famous line from a movie ( at least I think it is a quote ) "All that movie was about was walking. Everyone walked in that movie. Hell, even the trees freakin walked in that movie!" - Clerks 2
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
ffxi got one of the best stories outt here
also had some quality ingame cutscenes for mmo
although each expansion got its own story but there are few hints here and there to tigh them together
and wasnt pointless, by doing story missions you unlocks things like new zones, endgame event , gear...ect
my punches are as strong as kicks
I might have to try out FF on this go round. It does look interesting tho, I may not have the time and effort to put into it that appears it needs to be successfull.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.