I won't name any names here, but these are the facts as I understand them:
1. A game went on sale as a pre-order (MMORPG) last July 2009.
2. At the time of sale there was a TOS that stated you would start a recurring subscription AFTER selecting a subscription type (duration) and payment method.
3. There was no account/subscription section on the website for about 8 months after the sale.
4. When they added the subscription section to the website they changed the TOS to state that by purchasing the game you agreed to becoming subscribed to the game.
5. By default they set all pre-order folks to RENEW SUBSCRIPTION. Even though they had never picked one, agreed to one, or chose a payment method.
6. They apparently held onto credit card info used from the 2009 pre-order purchases and transfered that data over to the subscription info.
7. The company decided that ALL "free months" would start at launch of the game.. which was June 2010.
8. The company just started billing pre-order people who never played the game in months (some almost a year) and never agreed to a subscription in the original TOS for recurrent subscriptions.
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
I may have missed one or two items.. but I think that pretty much sums up the situation. My question is...:
Is this practice even LEGAL? Even if it is legal (which I hope it isn't) should gaming sites be covering this as it would set a horrible precedent for future MMOs...?
I left the company name and game out as I'd like to simply discuss the issues while leaving any pre-existing pro/con feelings about the company or game at the door.
what if i take a guess, and my guess would be champions online? amirite, amirite?
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
This is why it's legal. They informed the users that changes had been made to the Terms of Service and to their accounts.
The user gave them contact information. How is the company in question liable in a case where the user stops paying attention to that contact point or begin to use a new contact point?
The company held up their end of the agreement.
Here's a hypothetical-
You buy something from my website, I send it to you and charge you the agreed-upon $10. Eight months later I send an email with fine print saying the terms have changed. I will now charge your credit card an additional $100 a week for the purchase forever. Am I holding up my end of the agreement? If so, can I have your credit card number?
Sending an email (or letter) is not a legal avenue to changing a contract. Both parties must give express consent.
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
This is why it's legal. They informed the users that changes had been made to the Terms of Service and to their accounts.
The user gave them contact information. How is the company in question liable in a case where the user stops paying attention to that contact point or begin to use a new contact point?
The company held up their end of the agreement.
Here's a hypothetical-
You buy something from my website, I send it to you and charge you the agreed-upon $10. Eight months later I send an email with fine print saying the terms have changed. I will now charge your credit card an additional $100 a week for the purchase forever. Am I holding up my end of the agreement? If so, can I have your credit card number?
No, you can not have my credit card number.
However, every time I have bought client software for a subscription based service, that subscription has been set to renew automatically unless I cancelled it. Why should I expect any different from this company?
What contract?
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
However, every time I have bought client software for a subscription based service, that subscription has been set to renew automatically unless I cancelled it. Why should I expect any different from this company?
What contract?
In this case the TOS in place at the time of purchase stated that AFTER you chose a subscription type and payment method you would have a recurring subscription. These people not only DIDN'T choose a sub type or payment method.. but the company's website did not even allow for those choices to be made until around 8 months later. Even if these people wanted to cancel a subscription they never agreed to.. they couldn't because there was no such section on the website.
I see you previously played WoW, WAR and Cabal. How would you like it if next year they reactivated your account and sent an email to whatever they had on file saying if you wanted to cancel you could of course come to the website and do so?
Let me also ask you.. every time you bought client software for a subscription based service (as you state above), did you not have to agree to a subscription? Pick a duration (1 month.. 3 month etc)? Enter your payment information? None of this happened in this case.. none of it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Seriously another thread on exactly the same topic. This level of obsession can not be healthy, you spend more time on MO than I do on games I actually like and play.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
In this case the TOS in place at the time of purchase stated that AFTER you chose a subscription type and payment method you would have a recurring subscription. These people not only DIDN'T choose a sub type or payment method.. but the company's website did not even allow for those choices to be made until around 8 months later. Even if these people wanted to cancel a subscription they never agreed to.. they couldn't because there was no such section on the website.
I see you previously played WoW, WAR and Cabal. How would you like it if next year they reactivated your account and sent an email to whatever they had on file saying if you wanted to cancel you could of course come to the website and do so?
Let me also ask you.. every time you bought client software for a subscription based service (as you state above), did you not have to agree to a subscription? Pick a duration (1 month.. 3 month etc)? Enter your payment information? None of this happened in this case.. none of it.
First paragraph: Did the Terms of Service at that time also state anything to the tune of "these Terms of Service can be changed at any time without prior notice..." or some such thing? Allowing the "mystery" company to change the ToS? I'm guessing that buying the pre-order, the "victims" agreed to that as well?
Second paragraph: Is this thread about what I would like, or about what is legal? Make a choice. (On the by and by, I would likely see that e-mail and cancel. I pay attention, as well as subscription fees.)
Third paragraph: Not really relevant. I made that statement for the matter of precedent. I'm pretty sure I can guess what company you are talking about, and armed with that knowledge, I'm pretty sure that it has been well known for a long time that the mystery game in question was going to be subscription based. So... a subscription should have been anticipated.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
This is why it's legal. They informed the users that changes had been made to the Terms of Service and to their accounts.
The user gave them contact information. How is the company in question liable in a case where the user stops paying attention to that contact point or begin to use a new contact point?
The company held up their end of the agreement.
Here's a hypothetical-
You buy something from my website, I send it to you and charge you the agreed-upon $10. Eight months later I send an email with fine print saying the terms have changed. I will now charge your credit card an additional $100 a week for the purchase forever. Am I holding up my end of the agreement? If so, can I have your credit card number?
No, you can not have my credit card number.
However, every time I have bought client software for a subscription based service, that subscription has been set to renew automatically unless I cancelled it. Why should I expect any different from this company?
What contract?
There wasn't even a way for people TO subscribe to the game at the time of many pre-order purchases, so how the hell would they be expected to set anything to auto-renew, much less cancel something they didn't even have an option of activating.
In many countries TOS and situations like this are covered under contract law, and SV did breach contracts. You can't change the terms of a service, or the conditions of a contract under the 'we tried to contact the customer to get their permission' excuse. You just can't. You can't even simply claim that in legal matters, which is why the courts often HIRE people whose sole job is to creatively ensure people are personally served supoena's... they can't just say 'well, we hired a blimp with the message 'John, you're due in court,' so we tried and it was his fault for not noticing our attempts.'
Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol.
There wasn't even a way for people TO subscribe to the game at the time of many pre-order purchases, so how the hell would they be expected to set anything to auto-renew, much less cancel something they didn't even have an option of activating.
In many countries TOS and situations like this are covered under contract law, and SV did breach contracts. You can't change the terms of a service, or the conditions of a contract under the 'we tried to contact the customer to get their permission' excuse. You just can't. You can't even simply claim that in legal matters, which is why the courts often HIRE people whose sole job is to creatively ensure people are personally served supoena's... they can't just say 'well, we hired a blimp with the message 'John, you're due in court,' so we tried and it was his fault for not noticing our attempts.'
Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol.
Again. First paragraph: They bought the client software to a game that was known to be a subscription based game. Was that made a secret? That it was a subscription based game they were buying the client for? No. Everyone knew it was going to be subscription based when it went live. They should expect a subscription.
Again. Second paragraph. You going to offer any proof that the "mystery" company breached contracts?
Again. Third paragraph. Got some evidence? "Anyone remember..." Indeed.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
You could debate the legalities all day long, from a hundred different angles.
Whether it's legal or not isn't the important question here, I think.
I'd say the question is if what the company did - automatically starting a subscription that was not selected, nor agreed to, by the customers... using credit card information provided months earlier for the initial (pre-) purchase of the game - is a very shady tactic and should throw up a huge red flag for anyone considering doing business with said business?
To me, the answer is an emphatic 'Yes'.
Putting a notice in a newsletter does not make the action "okay". You are not obligated to read newsletters to keep up with changes in a ToS as part of the ToS. So, that anyone would even say "well they mentioned an update in a newsletter" as a defense is pretty damn disingenuous. What if you never subscribed to the newsletter at all? "Too bad, so sad, you'll find out when we bill you"?
I think not.
I wouldn't do business with a company who pulled crap like that and - knowing who the OP is referring to - especially not one whose standing is questionable as it is.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For those of you who don't read the MO forums regularly......Slapshop isn't actually asking a question. He hates MO with a passion and is just using this thread as a way to bash the game. I'm guessing that the MO board wasn't getting enough traffic for him, so he has brought his trolling here now.
It is fairly simple OP. If you did not agree to pay for a subscription, then it is illegal to pull credit card info from an irrelevant purchase. I'd request a chargeback asap *first* and then contact the company, as getting the money back can take a few weeks depending on the method of payment.
Another point is that a company issuing a terms of service does not make it legal, especially a broad and vague one.
So in summary, you bought a boxed game with no agreement to subscription service. This company must have been deep in the hole to try and pull a stunt like this, hoping they'd get only partial chargebacks and doubt anyone would attempt to sue; something which is uncommon in the videogame industry on the customer level.
You could debate the legalities all day long, from a hundred different angles.
Whether it's legal or not isn't the important question here, I think.
I'd say the question is if what the company did - automatically starting a subscription that was not selected, nor agreed to, by the customers... using credit card information provided months earlier for the initial (pre-) purchase of the game - is a very shady tactic and should throw up a huge red flag for anyone considering doing business with said business?
To me, the answer is an emphatic 'Yes'.
Putting a notice in a newsletter, which, for sure, the company fully expected most people would not read thoroughly, if at all, does not make the action "okay". You are not obligated to read newsletters to keep up with changes in a ToS as part of the ToS. So, that anyone would even say "well they mentioned an update in a newsletter" as a defense is pretty damn disingenuous. What if you never subscribed to the newsletter at all? "Too bad, so sad, you'll find out when we bill you"?
I think not.
I wouldn't do business with a company who pulled crap like that and - knowing who the OP is referring to - especially not one whose standing is questionable as it is.
First italicized point: The OP thought it was important.
Second italicized point: Are we sure that buying the client software to a subscription based game does not mean that the customer agrees to the subscription attached to that client software?
Third italicized point: (Interesting note: I had to manually copy that specific part of your post over to this quote; the quote function didn't bring that part over.) You kind of had me to this point. Do I think the "mystery" company's behavior is ethical? Not completely. Many businesses engage in unethical behavior, though. But to say they "fully expected most people would not read thoroughly, if at all" is pure speculation. It's fucking spin.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
There wasn't even a way for people TO subscribe to the game at the time of many pre-order purchases, so how the hell would they be expected to set anything to auto-renew, much less cancel something they didn't even have an option of activating.
In many countries TOS and situations like this are covered under contract law, and SV did breach contracts. You can't change the terms of a service, or the conditions of a contract under the 'we tried to contact the customer to get their permission' excuse. You just can't. You can't even simply claim that in legal matters, which is why the courts often HIRE people whose sole job is to creatively ensure people are personally served supoena's... they can't just say 'well, we hired a blimp with the message 'John, you're due in court,' so we tried and it was his fault for not noticing our attempts.'
Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol.
Again. First paragraph: They bought the client software to a game that was known to be a subscription based game. Was that made a secret? That it was a subscription based game they were buying the client for? No. Everyone knew it was going to be subscription based when it went live. They should expect a subscription.
Again. Second paragraph. You going to offer any proof that the "mystery" company breached contracts?
Again. Third paragraph. Got some evidence? "Anyone remember..." Indeed.
Again. First paragraph. They bought software that at the time had nothing to subscribe to, yet purchase was required to participate in beta... show me proof it's impossible people simply wanted to buy the game to play in beta and never intended to subscribe to the game. Though, refuting your point gives it credibility, which it really doesn't have... I mean, you can get into a cab and the cab driver can go 100mph and refuse to let you out, and the 'you entered a cab knowing you'd be charged for a ride' argument is, um, dumb.
Again. Second paragraph. I'm not the police, nor a court of law, nor making any formal charges, so am not required to provide proof. What's with your obsession with 'proof'? Are you the police or officially investigating the situation? And there's a lot of legal citation on the SV forums from the last few years, which is probably all been deleted by now, lol. The hilarious thing is this whole time people have been demanding 'proof' before they'll believe anything bad about SV, and now everyone is getting burned and probably shouldn't have opened their eyes a bit instead of submerging themselves in denial in the absence of 'proof.'
Again. Third paragraph. What's with the format? I wasn't bringing formal charges against the Hamburgler... I was simply saying boy that Hamburgler sure does look like an effing hamburger burgler! Nut-uh, I won't believe it, screen shot of your ham being burgled or didn't happen.
For those of you who don't read the MO forums regularly......Slapshop isn't actually asking a question. He hates MO with a passion and is just using this thread as a way to bash the game. I'm guessing that the MO board wasn't getting enough traffic for him, so he has brought his trolling here now.
I sometimes wonder if a certain somebody applied to the "mystery" company and got turned down. In favor of a milk vending machine programmer.
LOL, so you rag on everyone for not providing proof, and then lob this sort of pesonal, vendictive sort of accusation.
Second italicized point: Are we sure that buying the client software to a subscription based game does not mean that the customer agrees to the subscription attached to that client software?
The software in question came with a 30 day trial period.. the expectation being that if you wanted to use it longer than that 30 day period you would subscribe. This isn't even an issue had they simply said that you would be subscribed to the game when you purchased it.. or installed it even. Nope... at the time of purchase they specifically said your recurrent sub would start AFTER chosing a sub type and payment method... neither of which were available for about 8 months after purchase.
So no.. simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company ninja subscribe you against their own TOS 11 months later.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Second italicized point: Are we sure that buying the client software to a subscription based game does not mean that the customer agrees to the subscription attached to that client software?
The software in question came with a 30 day trial period.. the expectation being that if you wanted to use it longer than that 30 day period you would subscribe. This isn't even an issue had they simply said that you would be subscribed to the game when you purchased it.. or installed it even. Nope... at the time of purchase they specifically said your recurrent sub would start AFTER chosing a sub type and payment method... neither of which were available for about 8 months after purchase.
So no.. simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company ninja subscribe you against their own TOS 11 months later.
Not only that but I have never purchased a client (or key) that automatically started the subscription upon purchase, I've never even heard of it until now. I have set up accounts and been required to set up a subscription upon entering a game key or before being allowed to play the game, but never for simply purchasing, not to mention it was a freaking pre-order. I've never been asked to set up a subscription for a pre-order.
Again. First paragraph. They bought software that at the time had nothing to subscribe to, yet purchase was required to participate in beta... show me proof it's impossible people simply wanted to buy the game to play in beta and never intended to subscribe to the game. Though, refuting your point gives it credibility, which it really doesn't have... I mean, you can get into a cab and the cab driver can go 100mph and refuse to let you out, and the 'you entered a cab knowing you'd be charged for a ride' argument is, um, dumb.
Again. Second paragraph. I'm not the police, nor a court of law, nor making any formal charges, so am not required to provide proof. What's with your obsession with 'proof'? Are you the police or officially investigating the situation? And there's a lot of legal citation on the SV forums from the last few years, which is probably all been deleted by now, lol. The hilarious thing is this whole time people have been demanding 'proof' before they'll believe anything bad about SV, and now everyone is getting burned and probably shouldn't have opened their eyes a bit instead of submerging themselves in denial in the absence of 'proof.'
Again. Third paragraph. What's with the format? I wasn't bringing formal charges against the Hamburgler... I was simply saying boy that Hamburgler sure does look like an effing hamburger burgler! Nut-uh, I won't believe it, screen shot of your ham being burgled or didn't happen.
Wow. What planet do some of you people come from?
"show me proof it's impossible people simply wanted to buy the game to play in beta and never intended to subscribe to the game."
Completely irrelevant. Based on speculation. "They just wanted to buy the game to play in beta." That objection would summarily be dismissed in a court of law. They bought the game, which shows intent to subscribe. That intent to subscribe remains until they show intent to not subscribe. If they never showed intent not to subscribe, they are liable for intending to subscribe. End of short story.
"you entered a cab knowing you'd be charged for a ride" What's to argue? Honestly? You didn't expect to be charged?
" What's with your obsession with 'proof'?" I have no obsession with proof. You said that this mystery company "breached contracts." Easy to say. Hell, I can say it. You breached a contract, popsideath. With me. No one should deal with you. You're the scum of the earth. Phew, glad I don't need any proof.
What the hell does the Hamburgler have to do with any of this? You said, "Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol."
Got any proof of all these desperate attempts to remove CC info? Or are we to just take your word for it that the "mystery" company in question has the Hamburgler on the case?
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
For those of you who don't read the MO forums regularly......Slapshop isn't actually asking a question. He hates MO with a passion and is just using this thread as a way to bash the game. I'm guessing that the MO board wasn't getting enough traffic for him, so he has brought his trolling here now.
I sometimes wonder if a certain somebody applied to the "mystery" company and got turned down. In favor of a milk vending machine programmer.
Where's your proof?
I have none. That's why I wonder.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
The software in question came with a 30 day trial period.. the expectation being that if you wanted to use it longer than that 30 day period you would subscribe. This isn't even an issue had they simply said that you would be subscribed to the game when you purchased it.. or installed it even. Nope... at the time of purchase they specifically said your recurrent sub would start AFTER chosing a sub type and payment method... neither of which were available for about 8 months after purchase.
So no.. simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does mean that you agree to let the company ninja subscribe you against their own TOS 11 months later.
It tickles me to see that you only want to choose certain points to rebut.
Here is what it says in their Terms of Service:
"Once you purchase the game and establish an account, you will be entitled to play Mortal Online for thirty (30) days without any subscription fee. If your account is not terminated or manually set to “do not renew subscription” within this period of thirty (30) days, you will be charged the subscription fee for the following month or by your choice of method and interval."
According to their Terms of Service it does in fact seem that "simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company" charge you for that subscription.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
It tickles me to see that you only want to choose certain points to rebut.
Here is what it says in their Terms of Service:
"Once you purchase the game and establish an account, you will be entitled to play Mortal Online for thirty (30) days without any subscription fee. If your account is not terminated or manually set to “do not renew subscription” within this period of thirty (30) days, you will be charged the subscription fee for the following month or by your choice of method and interval."
According to their Terms of Service it does in fact seem that "simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company" charge you for that subscription.
That is the NEW TOS. The one that came out a few months ago. I am not sure how you missed the fact that they changed the TOS recently as it was mentioned at least 5 or 6 times previously in this thread. ANyhow.. here is the original text:
The original TOS has been deleted. I may have a screenshot/printout somewhere. For now though.. here is a link where the important part is extracted in a post by StarVault Support. Also note that the subscription/account section where you could choose one and/or cancel one did not exist until March 2010, thus prior to that no one that bought the game could have chosen a subscription methos and interval:
Anyway, as both Maerlyn and I stated in different threads, the free month will start autmatically as soon as MO goes live. This is something that is mutual for both pre-ordering customers, aswell as for those who bought the game in closed or open beta.
This is an extract from the "terms and conditions", that you actively have to agree to in order to finish your purchase:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your
subscription."
It's both a matter of technical difficulties and an unanimous management decision that states that the free month will begin the day MO goes live.
If you would choose to cancel your account now, it means that AFTER the free month has ended, we'll end your subscription, and won't make any further withdrawals from your account.
Sincerely,
SV support
--------------------
I hope now that you can clearly see that they changed the TOS.. you will now agree that appplying it to old pre-orders that never agreed to it is 100% wrong. My question here was whether it was illegal...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It tickles me to see that you only want to choose certain points to rebut.
Here is what it says in their Terms of Service:
"Once you purchase the game and establish an account, you will be entitled to play Mortal Online for thirty (30) days without any subscription fee. If your account is not terminated or manually set to “do not renew subscription” within this period of thirty (30) days, you will be charged the subscription fee for the following month or by your choice of method and interval."
According to their Terms of Service it does in fact seem that "simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company" charge you for that subscription.
That is the NEW TOS. The one that came out a few months ago. I am not sure how you missed the fact that they changed the TOS recently as it was mentioned at least 5 or 6 times previously in this thread. ANyhow.. here is the original text:
The original TOS has been deleted. I may have a screenshot/printout somewhere. For now though.. here is a link where the important part is extracted in a post by StarVault Support. Also note that the subscription/account section where you could choose one and/or cancel one did not exist until March 2010, thus prior to that no one that bought the game could have chosen a subscription methos and interval:
Anyway, as both Maerlyn and I stated in different threads, the free month will start autmatically as soon as MO goes live. This is something that is mutual for both pre-ordering customers, aswell as for those who bought the game in closed or open beta.
This is an extract from the "terms and conditions", that you actively have to agree to in order to finish your purchase:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your
subscription."
It's both a matter of technical difficulties and an unanimous management decision that states that the free month will begin the day MO goes live.
If you would choose to cancel your account now, it means that AFTER the free month has ended, we'll end your subscription, and won't make any further withdrawals from your account.
Sincerely,
SV support
--------------------
I hope now that you can clearly see that they changed the TOS.. you will now agree that appplying it to old pre-orders that never agreed to it is 100% wrong. My question here was whether it was illegal...
I am in no way a lawyer, but how could it not? In fact would it not be theft and/or fraud? I entrusted my creditcard information to this company and they simply withdraw money from my account without my approval.
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
This is why it's legal. They informed the users that changes had been made to the Terms of Service and to their accounts.
The user gave them contact information. How is the company in question liable in a case where the user stops paying attention to that contact point or begin to use a new contact point?
The company held up their end of the agreement.
Please don't offer legal advice when you absolutely don't have a clue! Sending an email does nothing to authorize them to bill you.
There is nothing legal about this at all. Ever notice when most MMO's change their TOS that you have to click agreement with it before you can log into the game. That indicated acceptance to the TOS and to their billing you. You have to physically agree to the changes.
What this is is fraud. Contact the better business bureau and your attorney general. Definitely you should be calling your bank to get the charges reversed. Unless of course you decided to play the game and agreed to the new TOS.
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
This is why it's legal. They informed the users that changes had been made to the Terms of Service and to their accounts.
The user gave them contact information. How is the company in question liable in a case where the user stops paying attention to that contact point or begin to use a new contact point?
The company held up their end of the agreement.
Please don't offer legal advice when you absolutely don't have a clue! Sending an email does nothing to authorize them to bill you.
There is nothing legal about this at all. Ever notice when most MMO's change their TOS that you have to click agreement with it before you can log into the game. That indicated acceptance to the TOS and to their billing you. You have to physically agree to the changes.
What this is is fraud. Contact the better business bureau and your attorney general. Definitely you should be calling your bank to get the charges reversed. Unless of course you decided to play the game and agreed to the new TOS.
I won't name any names here, but these are the facts as I understand them:
1. A game went on sale as a pre-order (MMORPG) last July 2009.
2. At the time of sale there was a TOS that stated you would start a recurring subscription AFTER selecting a subscription type (duration) and payment method.
3. There was no account/subscription section on the website for about 8 months after the sale.
4. When they added the subscription section to the website they changed the TOS to state that by purchasing the game you agreed to becoming subscribed to the game.
5. By default they set all pre-order folks to RENEW SUBSCRIPTION. Even though they had never picked one, agreed to one, or chose a payment method.
6. They apparently held onto credit card info used from the 2009 pre-order purchases and transfered that data over to the subscription info.
7. The company decided that ALL "free months" would start at launch of the game.. which was June 2010.
8. The company just started billing pre-order people who never played the game in months (some almost a year) and never agreed to a subscription in the original TOS for recurrent subscriptions.
9. At launch the company sent out an email from newsletter@XXXXX.com saying the game was launching and all accounts were active but people could go and turn them off if they wanted. Needless to say after 10-11 months many people have new emails.. and who really reads most emails from newsletter accounts of old games you no longer play?
I may have missed one or two items.. but I think that pretty much sums up the situation. My question is...:
Is this practice even LEGAL? Even if it is legal (which I hope it isn't) should gaming sites be covering this as it would set a horrible precedent for future MMOs...?
I left the company name and game out as I'd like to simply discuss the issues while leaving any pre-existing pro/con feelings about the company or game at the door.
Maybe it's just me, but if I pre-ordered a game, and I was obviously keen to play it I would also be keen to make sure I keep uptodate with whats happening on it's boards etc, so keeping that in mind, surely those ppl in that situation didn't just leave planet Earth for 11 months?
Normally sane ppl check their bank statements, check games that will charge you a monthly fee once it goes live, or have those ppl that have bought this game suddenly lost their common sense?
9 times out of 10 the issue is usually down to human error, or they just couldn't be bothered to actually check whats really going on and just left it to the system, however I think this time it's plenty of both, the devs being very misleading and some unlucky ppl just being rather lazy and slow in checking what they are paying for, I mean no one in their right mind leaves a mysterious payment coming out of their bank for 11 months!!
Comments
what if i take a guess, and my guess would be champions online? amirite, amirite?
Here's a hypothetical-
You buy something from my website, I send it to you and charge you the agreed-upon $10. Eight months later I send an email with fine print saying the terms have changed. I will now charge your credit card an additional $100 a week for the purchase forever. Am I holding up my end of the agreement? If so, can I have your credit card number?
Sending an email (or letter) is not a legal avenue to changing a contract. Both parties must give express consent.
No, you can not have my credit card number.
However, every time I have bought client software for a subscription based service, that subscription has been set to renew automatically unless I cancelled it. Why should I expect any different from this company?
What contract?
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
In this case the TOS in place at the time of purchase stated that AFTER you chose a subscription type and payment method you would have a recurring subscription. These people not only DIDN'T choose a sub type or payment method.. but the company's website did not even allow for those choices to be made until around 8 months later. Even if these people wanted to cancel a subscription they never agreed to.. they couldn't because there was no such section on the website.
I see you previously played WoW, WAR and Cabal. How would you like it if next year they reactivated your account and sent an email to whatever they had on file saying if you wanted to cancel you could of course come to the website and do so?
Let me also ask you.. every time you bought client software for a subscription based service (as you state above), did you not have to agree to a subscription? Pick a duration (1 month.. 3 month etc)? Enter your payment information? None of this happened in this case.. none of it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Seriously another thread on exactly the same topic. This level of obsession can not be healthy, you spend more time on MO than I do on games I actually like and play.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
First paragraph: Did the Terms of Service at that time also state anything to the tune of "these Terms of Service can be changed at any time without prior notice..." or some such thing? Allowing the "mystery" company to change the ToS? I'm guessing that buying the pre-order, the "victims" agreed to that as well?
Second paragraph: Is this thread about what I would like, or about what is legal? Make a choice. (On the by and by, I would likely see that e-mail and cancel. I pay attention, as well as subscription fees.)
Third paragraph: Not really relevant. I made that statement for the matter of precedent. I'm pretty sure I can guess what company you are talking about, and armed with that knowledge, I'm pretty sure that it has been well known for a long time that the mystery game in question was going to be subscription based. So... a subscription should have been anticipated.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
There wasn't even a way for people TO subscribe to the game at the time of many pre-order purchases, so how the hell would they be expected to set anything to auto-renew, much less cancel something they didn't even have an option of activating.
In many countries TOS and situations like this are covered under contract law, and SV did breach contracts. You can't change the terms of a service, or the conditions of a contract under the 'we tried to contact the customer to get their permission' excuse. You just can't. You can't even simply claim that in legal matters, which is why the courts often HIRE people whose sole job is to creatively ensure people are personally served supoena's... they can't just say 'well, we hired a blimp with the message 'John, you're due in court,' so we tried and it was his fault for not noticing our attempts.'
Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
Again. First paragraph: They bought the client software to a game that was known to be a subscription based game. Was that made a secret? That it was a subscription based game they were buying the client for? No. Everyone knew it was going to be subscription based when it went live. They should expect a subscription.
Again. Second paragraph. You going to offer any proof that the "mystery" company breached contracts?
Again. Third paragraph. Got some evidence? "Anyone remember..." Indeed.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
You could debate the legalities all day long, from a hundred different angles.
Whether it's legal or not isn't the important question here, I think.
I'd say the question is if what the company did - automatically starting a subscription that was not selected, nor agreed to, by the customers... using credit card information provided months earlier for the initial (pre-) purchase of the game - is a very shady tactic and should throw up a huge red flag for anyone considering doing business with said business?
To me, the answer is an emphatic 'Yes'.
Putting a notice in a newsletter does not make the action "okay". You are not obligated to read newsletters to keep up with changes in a ToS as part of the ToS. So, that anyone would even say "well they mentioned an update in a newsletter" as a defense is pretty damn disingenuous. What if you never subscribed to the newsletter at all? "Too bad, so sad, you'll find out when we bill you"?
I think not.
I wouldn't do business with a company who pulled crap like that and - knowing who the OP is referring to - especially not one whose standing is questionable as it is.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For those of you who don't read the MO forums regularly......Slapshop isn't actually asking a question. He hates MO with a passion and is just using this thread as a way to bash the game. I'm guessing that the MO board wasn't getting enough traffic for him, so he has brought his trolling here now.
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
It is fairly simple OP. If you did not agree to pay for a subscription, then it is illegal to pull credit card info from an irrelevant purchase. I'd request a chargeback asap *first* and then contact the company, as getting the money back can take a few weeks depending on the method of payment.
Another point is that a company issuing a terms of service does not make it legal, especially a broad and vague one.
So in summary, you bought a boxed game with no agreement to subscription service. This company must have been deep in the hole to try and pull a stunt like this, hoping they'd get only partial chargebacks and doubt anyone would attempt to sue; something which is uncommon in the videogame industry on the customer level.
First italicized point: The OP thought it was important.
Second italicized point: Are we sure that buying the client software to a subscription based game does not mean that the customer agrees to the subscription attached to that client software?
Third italicized point: (Interesting note: I had to manually copy that specific part of your post over to this quote; the quote function didn't bring that part over.) You kind of had me to this point. Do I think the "mystery" company's behavior is ethical? Not completely. Many businesses engage in unethical behavior, though. But to say they "fully expected most people would not read thoroughly, if at all" is pure speculation. It's fucking spin.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
Again. First paragraph. They bought software that at the time had nothing to subscribe to, yet purchase was required to participate in beta... show me proof it's impossible people simply wanted to buy the game to play in beta and never intended to subscribe to the game. Though, refuting your point gives it credibility, which it really doesn't have... I mean, you can get into a cab and the cab driver can go 100mph and refuse to let you out, and the 'you entered a cab knowing you'd be charged for a ride' argument is, um, dumb.
Again. Second paragraph. I'm not the police, nor a court of law, nor making any formal charges, so am not required to provide proof. What's with your obsession with 'proof'? Are you the police or officially investigating the situation? And there's a lot of legal citation on the SV forums from the last few years, which is probably all been deleted by now, lol. The hilarious thing is this whole time people have been demanding 'proof' before they'll believe anything bad about SV, and now everyone is getting burned and probably shouldn't have opened their eyes a bit instead of submerging themselves in denial in the absence of 'proof.'
Again. Third paragraph. What's with the format? I wasn't bringing formal charges against the Hamburgler... I was simply saying boy that Hamburgler sure does look like an effing hamburger burgler! Nut-uh, I won't believe it, screen shot of your ham being burgled or didn't happen.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
LOL, so you rag on everyone for not providing proof, and then lob this sort of pesonal, vendictive sort of accusation.
Where's your proof, nerdmuncher?
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
The software in question came with a 30 day trial period.. the expectation being that if you wanted to use it longer than that 30 day period you would subscribe. This isn't even an issue had they simply said that you would be subscribed to the game when you purchased it.. or installed it even. Nope... at the time of purchase they specifically said your recurrent sub would start AFTER chosing a sub type and payment method... neither of which were available for about 8 months after purchase.
So no.. simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company ninja subscribe you against their own TOS 11 months later.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not only that but I have never purchased a client (or key) that automatically started the subscription upon purchase, I've never even heard of it until now. I have set up accounts and been required to set up a subscription upon entering a game key or before being allowed to play the game, but never for simply purchasing, not to mention it was a freaking pre-order. I've never been asked to set up a subscription for a pre-order.
Wow. What planet do some of you people come from?
"show me proof it's impossible people simply wanted to buy the game to play in beta and never intended to subscribe to the game."
Completely irrelevant. Based on speculation. "They just wanted to buy the game to play in beta." That objection would summarily be dismissed in a court of law. They bought the game, which shows intent to subscribe. That intent to subscribe remains until they show intent to not subscribe. If they never showed intent not to subscribe, they are liable for intending to subscribe. End of short story.
"you entered a cab knowing you'd be charged for a ride" What's to argue? Honestly? You didn't expect to be charged?
" What's with your obsession with 'proof'?" I have no obsession with proof. You said that this mystery company "breached contracts." Easy to say. Hell, I can say it. You breached a contract, popsideath. With me. No one should deal with you. You're the scum of the earth. Phew, glad I don't need any proof.
What the hell does the Hamburgler have to do with any of this? You said, "Anyone remember way back in the day when people were trying to remove their CC information from SV's account system and wouldn't (or couldn't) after mutiple emails, PMs and posts on their forums... all that despite the fact in their own country it was [allegedly] illegal to hold a customer's credit card information indefinitely if they were actively subscribed with it, much less against their consent.... Wonder why they did that?! Ummm, probably because they were planning this fraud all along, lol."
Got any proof of all these desperate attempts to remove CC info? Or are we to just take your word for it that the "mystery" company in question has the Hamburgler on the case?
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I have none. That's why I wonder.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
It tickles me to see that you only want to choose certain points to rebut.
Here is what it says in their Terms of Service:
"Once you purchase the game and establish an account, you will be entitled to play Mortal Online for thirty (30) days without any subscription fee. If your account is not terminated or manually set to “do not renew subscription” within this period of thirty (30) days, you will be charged the subscription fee for the following month or by your choice of method and interval."
http://www.mortalonline.com/TOS
According to their Terms of Service it does in fact seem that "simply buying a client that requires a subscription to play past 30 days does not automatically mean that you agree to let the company" charge you for that subscription.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
That is the NEW TOS. The one that came out a few months ago. I am not sure how you missed the fact that they changed the TOS recently as it was mentioned at least 5 or 6 times previously in this thread. ANyhow.. here is the original text:
The original TOS has been deleted. I may have a screenshot/printout somewhere. For now though.. here is a link where the important part is extracted in a post by StarVault Support. Also note that the subscription/account section where you could choose one and/or cancel one did not exist until March 2010, thus prior to that no one that bought the game could have chosen a subscription methos and interval:
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/30465-choosing-when-free-month-starts-3.html#post790968
Anyway, as both Maerlyn and I stated in different threads, the free month will start autmatically as soon as MO goes live. This is something that is mutual for both pre-ordering customers, aswell as for those who bought the game in closed or open beta.
This is an extract from the "terms and conditions", that you actively have to agree to in order to finish your purchase:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your
subscription."
It's both a matter of technical difficulties and an unanimous management decision that states that the free month will begin the day MO goes live.
If you would choose to cancel your account now, it means that AFTER the free month has ended, we'll end your subscription, and won't make any further withdrawals from your account.
Sincerely,
SV support
--------------------
I hope now that you can clearly see that they changed the TOS.. you will now agree that appplying it to old pre-orders that never agreed to it is 100% wrong. My question here was whether it was illegal...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am in no way a lawyer, but how could it not? In fact would it not be theft and/or fraud? I entrusted my creditcard information to this company and they simply withdraw money from my account without my approval.
Please don't offer legal advice when you absolutely don't have a clue! Sending an email does nothing to authorize them to bill you.
There is nothing legal about this at all. Ever notice when most MMO's change their TOS that you have to click agreement with it before you can log into the game. That indicated acceptance to the TOS and to their billing you. You have to physically agree to the changes.
What this is is fraud. Contact the better business bureau and your attorney general. Definitely you should be calling your bank to get the charges reversed. Unless of course you decided to play the game and agreed to the new TOS.
So Ozmodan Esquire, where did you graduate from?
I think that this is a good way of punishing people who where stupid enough to preorder a game 11 months in advance.
Mr. Bagguns
Maybe it's just me, but if I pre-ordered a game, and I was obviously keen to play it I would also be keen to make sure I keep uptodate with whats happening on it's boards etc, so keeping that in mind, surely those ppl in that situation didn't just leave planet Earth for 11 months?
Normally sane ppl check their bank statements, check games that will charge you a monthly fee once it goes live, or have those ppl that have bought this game suddenly lost their common sense?
9 times out of 10 the issue is usually down to human error, or they just couldn't be bothered to actually check whats really going on and just left it to the system, however I think this time it's plenty of both, the devs being very misleading and some unlucky ppl just being rather lazy and slow in checking what they are paying for, I mean no one in their right mind leaves a mysterious payment coming out of their bank for 11 months!!