Call your state AG's office and file a consumer complaint. Get anyone else you know who had similar problems to do the same. Asking for legal tips on the MMORPG forums is pointless.
I'm 90% positive they stated in the TOS that it may change at any time without notification to the user, which means, yes, it's completely legal. It's stupid, but legal to my knowledge. I have to ask too, what game?
And you'd be wrong
The TOS is a Term of Service which relates to the rules that allow you to use the service (game).
If you break the rules the company might suspend the service at any time even if you have already paid for it.
That's the definition of TOS.
TOS shouldn't cover economic issues between the provider and the user, that is down to a CONTRACT.
A contract is only valid if the user has expressively subscribed to it
In a contract you can change the TOS but you cannot change the amount you charge for the service or the recurring cycle which was agreed when you signed the contract in the first place.
If a provider does that, that would be illegal and I suggest a class act against it (of course we have to double check the fact before accusing companies to do such things)
EXAMPLE:
I signed with a provider for Broadband up to 20 mega for $25 a month on a monthly cycle
They theorically can change your download speed if the TOS say they are allowed to, but they can never charge more than the $25 we agreed, without me signing a new contract.
I am also on a monthly cycle so they are not allowed to charge me 12 months in advance unless I signed a document that "clearly" state that. And by "clearly" I mean it is written in bold as a title, not mentioned somewhere within a wall of text.
If I signed for a monthly cycle contract and then they change their policy to "paying 12 month in advance" after I agreed the first version of the contract (therefore forcing me to pay 12 months in advance), they are breaking the law because they are not abiding the contract signed between the provider (them) and the user (me), and that's valid both for paper contract and digital contracts.
So in conclusion if the allegations are true, people should ask for a refund first, and if that is denied they should organise a class act against the company, which is Swedish I believe so it is bound by European Community common laws
PS: If you signed for a recurring cycle and you forgot to cancel the contract then it is your fault though, in this case by putting you by default on a monthly cycle basis they've been just shady but it is perfectly legal, it is your duty to check what you signed for or agreed to.
Maybe it's just me, but if I pre-ordered a game, and I was obviously keen to play it I would also be keen to make sure I keep uptodate with whats happening on it's boards etc, so keeping that in mind, surely those ppl in that situation didn't just leave planet Earth for 11 months?
Normally sane ppl check their bank statements, check games that will charge you a monthly fee once it goes live, or have those ppl that have bought this game suddenly lost their common sense?
9 times out of 10 the issue is usually down to human error, or they just couldn't be bothered to actually check whats really going on and just left it to the system, however I think this time it's plenty of both, the devs being very misleading and some unlucky ppl just being rather lazy and slow in checking what they are paying for, I mean no one in their right mind leaves a mysterious payment coming out of their bank for 11 months!!
Read the thread much?
Beta accesss was dependant on purchasing the pre-order. Plenty of people pre-ordered the game, played beta, realized it was not a game or company they would ever enjoy, and abandon the game. They weren't 'keen' on subscribing because that wasn't even an option at the time of many pre-order purchases. They were keen on playing beta, keen on scoping out the company, keen on purchasing exactly what they agreed to purchase, which was little more than access to beta as far as services go.
When you decide you don't want to play a game, do you keep up with it? I don't. I mark their newsletter emails as spam and remove their websites from my bookmarks list.
What's why this is an issue, because sane people realized SV charged them and are complaining. And again, did you even read the thread? They haven't been subscribed for 11 months and just noticed a recurring charge. They pre-ordered a game--PRE ordered--and now, 11 months later, SV automatically activated a live subscription and started charging them.
How does it look when you throw out terms like 'sane' and 'common sense' and didn't even get the facts right? And there are plenty of people who aren't in a position to check bank statements on a monthly basis. When I was in the Army I moved a lot (3 times in 6 months, once) and was often in a position where mail wasn't getting forwarded fast enough, or mail wasn't even deliverable. I had to trust that when I didn't sign up for a service, I wouldn't start being charged. And guess what, that DID happen once.... let me guess, I just didn't have common sense and wasn't sane as I was defending your freedom to blame victims on internet forums when you didn't even educate yourself with the basic facts in the thread first.
But anyhow, at the very least, yes, this company and employees in question have often be pretty misleading and uninformative, so it's not exactly a surprise this occured. Which is why a lot of people were not very keen on subscribing to the game after even a few weeks in beta 11 months ago.
PS: If you signed for a recurring cycle and you forgot to cancel the contract then it is your fault though, in this case by putting you by default on a monthly cycle basis they've been just shady but it is perfectly legal, it is your duty to check what you signed for or agreed to.
Again.. the people we are talking about did NOT agree to or signup for ANY subscription. Never.. EVER. Not in any TOS.. not in any EULA.. not in any contract. If they did.. the point would be moot.
PS: Reading your reply reminded me.. believe it or not the CS guy for this company actually used the tag : CS_SHADY
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I feel bad for the op regardless if this is unfair/unjust/illegal. This isnt what mmos are about. Your supose to have a good time, have fun. This is neither and is a pain to deal with. If the op wanted to deal with something like this, the op could start trading stocks or something that can be unfair sometimes. Although with developers/publishers that are less mainstream, the op should know as well as others that there support isnt as good sometimes as better mainstream companys. You should know what your geting into when you start something like this, and expect something out of the ordinary then like if you were using a mainstream developer and everything is dead on. Less know deveolpers can be hit or miss when compared to others,
I dont really get into the debates about dev companys or publishers much and there are many more knowledgable people on this subject. Id like to though, there just isnt that much information about it. It would be nice to know what a developer is doing 24/7, watch all there company numbers like expences and just have a better understanding of what it is that there doing exactly that so many millions of hours are spent on there softwares.
Since this has already been mentioned in the thread, other wise I wouldnt post it, here is what the op was talking about. I think there was a general sences that everyone new about having to switch the payment off so you wouldnt be billed but regardless its compleatly intentional. This isnt by mistake, people get billed if they dont switch off some check off thing. I think that is pretty unbeleavable and unfortunate.
Again.. the people we are talking about did NOT agree to or signup for ANY subscription. Never.. EVER. Not in any TOS.. not in any EULA.. not in any contract. If they did.. the point would be moot.
PS: Reading your reply reminded me.. believe it or not the CS guy for this company actually used the tag : CS_SHADY
Again, this is what you say. You have yet to prove any of it.
Go watch the movie, "Law Abiding Citizen." Pay attention to the quote about, "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." That is civil law. That is the courtroom. That is where legal and illegal are defined and separated.
You can't go into a court of law and say, "But... but... there was no webpage for them to accept or decline a subscription back then!" Was there absolutely no avenue whatsoever at all for them to manually cancel their accounts or tell Star Vault they did not want to renew their subscription? Did Star Vault make it impossible for them to contact them? Also, you can not go into a court room and say, "They used that email? OMG I haven't used that email in six months. LEWL! I win!" You have some responsibility as well, for the contact information you provide.
You repeatedly say they "did NOT agree to or signup for ANY subscription. Never.. EVER." Did they ever expressly decline a subscription? Everything you have ever quoted or pointed to has said they need to manually cancel their account or set their subscription to "do not renew" or they would be charged after the first free month.
Where's this alleged, "You'll never be charged for a subscription, unless you choose to be" quote?
Is the practice sketchy? Probably. Is it unethical? Probably. Is it shady? Yes.
Is it illegal? I doubt it. In fact, I say no, because in principle it is really no different than what other subscription based games do. You buy the box from a shelf in a game store, go home and install it. You set up an account and then, in order to play the free 30 days, you agree to a subscription, give them the information and then play. It's up to you to then cancel the subscription so you won't be charged.
Let's say you didn't play for more than a few days, because you thought the game stinks. They send you an email saying the free time is almost up and you'll be charged for your renewing subscription. You don't see the email because, well, it's time you changed email anyway, so you don't cancel. Is it suddenly the company's fault? You got a case now? You going to go all class action suit on them? They charged for something you didn't agree to?
Maybe you saw that email and you went to their site and looked for a "Cancel my subscription or I'm going to go broke!" page, but there wasn't one or you couldn't find it. Later you notice in your bank statement you got charged for the subscription. Clearly the company let you down again! You got a class action suit against these guys! They didn't give you a webpage to cancel your subscription through!
Come on. The proof is in the pudding. Do any of these "victims" have any proof that they made an attempt to not subscribe?
If it was me, I'd contact Star Vault in some way. An email saying I did not want to continue my subscription would suffice. Maybe something about cancelling my account. Any of that?
Not, "The Terms of Service used to say something different, but I don't have a copy of the original one or anything." Or, "I don't even use that email anymore." Or, "They didn't give me a webpage with Subscribe or Don't subscribe buttons on it"
Courts of law are not the same as internet forums.
Playing | GW2 Wanting | Pantheon Watching | Crowfall Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
Come on. The proof is in the pudding. Do any of these "victims" have any proof that they made an attempt to not subscribe?
This seems to be the fundamental difference and why you cannot seemingly understand what the majority of previous posters have said. If a company says you will be subscribed after doing X and Y. And you don't do X and Y... why would you have to do anything else? Not doing X and Y is the "attempt to not subscribe".
Also.. I believe I stated a few times previously that I wouldn't expect anyone to sue.. even 5000 people at $15 is only $75k..
Something can still be illegal without a lawsuit. I can steal money from a grocery store and never get convicted. It doesn't change the illegal nature of my action.
At least you agree that the company's practices are "sketchy", " unethical" and "shady". In short.. not the type of company you want to do business with. So in actuality we agree.. and are just debating a nuance!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm 90% positive they stated in the TOS that it may change at any time without notification to the user, which means, yes, it's completely legal. It's stupid, but legal to my knowledge. I have to ask too, what game?
Your actually wrong on that. Rgardless of the ToS in the U.S a company can not legally pull a bait-and-switch without explicitly informing the consumer of the policy change. sending out a newsletter@ email might cover thier arse, but technically its illigal for them to charge any who has NOT agreed to the changed ToS anything.
HOWEVER; if said customers read and clicked an "I AGREE" button or similar then they are bound by the ToS as stated and then are being billed rightly.
Not sure what laws there are in ths US, but it seems most civilized countries have some kind of customer protection legislation?
As in yes, they can change the ToS and Eula at any time, or contract, or whatever, but you are not bound by the new one until you agree to the new one.
If this is legal, and seeing as all MMO's have the "change" clause in theirs does that mean that at any time they can change the monthly to 1000$, bill me, and get away with it?
Failry certain that there are no country on earth that allows a company to arbitrarily change a contract and have the the other part legally bound by it, regardless of what the original contract says.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it illegal? I doubt it. In fact, I say no, because in principle it is really no different than what other subscription based games do. You buy the box from a shelf in a game store, go home and install it. You set up an account and then, in order to play the free 30 days, you agree to a subscription, give them the information and then play. It's up to you to then cancel the subscription so you won't be charged.
....
Courts of law are not the same as internet forums.
Ummm, to the first point, what other game would do what occured in MO. The thing is you don't even have your timeline correct. People purchased the pre-order from the company's online store which granted beta acces, they may or may not have even been able to log into beta, wrote off the game and forgot about it, and then the game launches months later and they suddenly have an active subscription.
Ummm, I've beta tested many games, bought games from online stores, and bought pre-orders, and not in any of these cases in 'other' games was I automatically signed up for a subscription based on either of those facts. In every case, at launch, I had to actively and knowingly subscribe to the game... not go out of my way to express the desire to not subscribe if I didn't want... even if I did buy the game in their online store or played in beta.
I recently bought a Virgin Mobile phone, and guess what I got... a phone and nothing more, no auto subscription, no auto-charge for time, not auto-anything. One time I bought a Magazine and guess what, I got a magazine and not a subscription. I know, it's probably blowing your mind, in these cases I had to actively and knowingly sign MYSELF up for the subscription, not have the company sign me up and me jump through hoops if I didn't want to be signed up.
Just because a product comes with a subscription, and the company has access to credit card information, doesn't mean it's within their right to start using it without the consent of the consumer.
To the last point.... let me guess, courts of law are not the same as internet forums, because only in one of those are you allowed to pretend you're the district attorney who is entitled to see proof.
How odd for them to assume because you've pre-ordered you would like a renewing subscription.
How odd even though I'm not signed up for the news letter I still recieved the e-mail announcing the release and the auto re-new. The complaints are the real forum are closed usually and the person told to contact support. Other people have been lying and getting charge backs even though it's been proven they were playing the game (after saying they totally forgot).
How odd for them to assume because you've pre-ordered you would like a renewing subscription.
You should never ASSUME with another person's money. Keep in mind these preorders were a YEAR ago. It's not up to a company to judge the intent of a customer. People either sign up for a subscription or they don't. There is no hanging chad.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Bottom line, is this is most likely not legal in most jurisdictions in the US at least, because of consumer protection laws. Companies pull shady stuff like this, because even though some people are savy enough to do and get chargebacks, many also do not.
And no one is going to sue over $50 or a $15/mo sub fee.
Bottom line, is this is most likely not legal in most jurisdictions in the US at least, because of consumer protection laws. Companies pull shady stuff like this, because even though some people are savy enough to do and get chargebacks, many also do not.
And no one is going to sue over $50 or a $15/mo sub fee.
So companies continue to do it.
The most likely outcome of this is that people will call up their credit card companies and dispute the charges as unauthorized. The credit card companies will reverse the charges and the game publisher will not dispute the chargebacks. Anything else is not going to be worth the lawyer fees for everyone involved.
If this theoretically would go to trial, you would have to consider the laws in a particular juristictions. European countries have different lawsa about EULAs then the US which mostly applies standard contract case law for stuff like that.
In the US, the case law generally accepts EULA/TOS as valid contracts but scrutinizes them to see if they are 'reasonable'. So a EULA that goes too far outside what is standard practice can get invalidated.
In this case you have the extra long period between the preorder and the actual release date, people getting notified of the billing through a 'newsletter' and the fact that this is not standard industry practice. That's plenty of reason a judge might use to rule against the company on this.
yup SV did this to me too. called my creditcard company (have to wait 30days for w/e reason) but ill get my money back.
It clearly states in their own words, "ONCE YOU SET UP A SUBSCRIPTION blah blah blah. NO ONE who is bitching about this, set up anything kind of sub! and just because there is a TOS( that was changed halfway thru... WOW SHADY BUSINESS), doesnt mean shit. a company writing somthing does NOT make it law.
No one agreed to this, pretty pathetic of the company, just make sure ANYONE WHO HAD THIS DONE calls their CC company for a chargeback, youll get your moeny back 100%
also, make sure to tell everyone not to play mortal online, not only is the game the most ghetto thing youve seen, they are not honest business people and will try to charge every penny they "Can" before they go under.
Comments
Call your state AG's office and file a consumer complaint. Get anyone else you know who had similar problems to do the same. Asking for legal tips on the MMORPG forums is pointless.
And you'd be wrong
The TOS is a Term of Service which relates to the rules that allow you to use the service (game).
If you break the rules the company might suspend the service at any time even if you have already paid for it.
That's the definition of TOS.
TOS shouldn't cover economic issues between the provider and the user, that is down to a CONTRACT.
A contract is only valid if the user has expressively subscribed to it
In a contract you can change the TOS but you cannot change the amount you charge for the service or the recurring cycle which was agreed when you signed the contract in the first place.
If a provider does that, that would be illegal and I suggest a class act against it (of course we have to double check the fact before accusing companies to do such things)
EXAMPLE:
I signed with a provider for Broadband up to 20 mega for $25 a month on a monthly cycle
They theorically can change your download speed if the TOS say they are allowed to, but they can never charge more than the $25 we agreed, without me signing a new contract.
I am also on a monthly cycle so they are not allowed to charge me 12 months in advance unless I signed a document that "clearly" state that. And by "clearly" I mean it is written in bold as a title, not mentioned somewhere within a wall of text.
If I signed for a monthly cycle contract and then they change their policy to "paying 12 month in advance" after I agreed the first version of the contract (therefore forcing me to pay 12 months in advance), they are breaking the law because they are not abiding the contract signed between the provider (them) and the user (me), and that's valid both for paper contract and digital contracts.
So in conclusion if the allegations are true, people should ask for a refund first, and if that is denied they should organise a class act against the company, which is Swedish I believe so it is bound by European Community common laws
PS: If you signed for a recurring cycle and you forgot to cancel the contract then it is your fault though, in this case by putting you by default on a monthly cycle basis they've been just shady but it is perfectly legal, it is your duty to check what you signed for or agreed to.
Read the thread much?
Beta accesss was dependant on purchasing the pre-order. Plenty of people pre-ordered the game, played beta, realized it was not a game or company they would ever enjoy, and abandon the game. They weren't 'keen' on subscribing because that wasn't even an option at the time of many pre-order purchases. They were keen on playing beta, keen on scoping out the company, keen on purchasing exactly what they agreed to purchase, which was little more than access to beta as far as services go.
When you decide you don't want to play a game, do you keep up with it? I don't. I mark their newsletter emails as spam and remove their websites from my bookmarks list.
What's why this is an issue, because sane people realized SV charged them and are complaining. And again, did you even read the thread? They haven't been subscribed for 11 months and just noticed a recurring charge. They pre-ordered a game--PRE ordered--and now, 11 months later, SV automatically activated a live subscription and started charging them.
How does it look when you throw out terms like 'sane' and 'common sense' and didn't even get the facts right? And there are plenty of people who aren't in a position to check bank statements on a monthly basis. When I was in the Army I moved a lot (3 times in 6 months, once) and was often in a position where mail wasn't getting forwarded fast enough, or mail wasn't even deliverable. I had to trust that when I didn't sign up for a service, I wouldn't start being charged. And guess what, that DID happen once.... let me guess, I just didn't have common sense and wasn't sane as I was defending your freedom to blame victims on internet forums when you didn't even educate yourself with the basic facts in the thread first.
But anyhow, at the very least, yes, this company and employees in question have often be pretty misleading and uninformative, so it's not exactly a surprise this occured. Which is why a lot of people were not very keen on subscribing to the game after even a few weeks in beta 11 months ago.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
Again.. the people we are talking about did NOT agree to or signup for ANY subscription. Never.. EVER. Not in any TOS.. not in any EULA.. not in any contract. If they did.. the point would be moot.
PS: Reading your reply reminded me.. believe it or not the CS guy for this company actually used the tag : CS_SHADY
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I feel bad for the op regardless if this is unfair/unjust/illegal. This isnt what mmos are about. Your supose to have a good time, have fun. This is neither and is a pain to deal with. If the op wanted to deal with something like this, the op could start trading stocks or something that can be unfair sometimes. Although with developers/publishers that are less mainstream, the op should know as well as others that there support isnt as good sometimes as better mainstream companys. You should know what your geting into when you start something like this, and expect something out of the ordinary then like if you were using a mainstream developer and everything is dead on. Less know deveolpers can be hit or miss when compared to others,
I dont really get into the debates about dev companys or publishers much and there are many more knowledgable people on this subject. Id like to though, there just isnt that much information about it. It would be nice to know what a developer is doing 24/7, watch all there company numbers like expences and just have a better understanding of what it is that there doing exactly that so many millions of hours are spent on there softwares.
Since this has already been mentioned in the thread, other wise I wouldnt post it, here is what the op was talking about. I think there was a general sences that everyone new about having to switch the payment off so you wouldnt be billed but regardless its compleatly intentional. This isnt by mistake, people get billed if they dont switch off some check off thing. I think that is pretty unbeleavable and unfortunate.
Again, this is what you say. You have yet to prove any of it.
Go watch the movie, "Law Abiding Citizen." Pay attention to the quote about, "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." That is civil law. That is the courtroom. That is where legal and illegal are defined and separated.
You can't go into a court of law and say, "But... but... there was no webpage for them to accept or decline a subscription back then!" Was there absolutely no avenue whatsoever at all for them to manually cancel their accounts or tell Star Vault they did not want to renew their subscription? Did Star Vault make it impossible for them to contact them? Also, you can not go into a court room and say, "They used that email? OMG I haven't used that email in six months. LEWL! I win!" You have some responsibility as well, for the contact information you provide.
You repeatedly say they "did NOT agree to or signup for ANY subscription. Never.. EVER." Did they ever expressly decline a subscription? Everything you have ever quoted or pointed to has said they need to manually cancel their account or set their subscription to "do not renew" or they would be charged after the first free month.
Where's this alleged, "You'll never be charged for a subscription, unless you choose to be" quote?
Is the practice sketchy? Probably. Is it unethical? Probably. Is it shady? Yes.
Is it illegal? I doubt it. In fact, I say no, because in principle it is really no different than what other subscription based games do. You buy the box from a shelf in a game store, go home and install it. You set up an account and then, in order to play the free 30 days, you agree to a subscription, give them the information and then play. It's up to you to then cancel the subscription so you won't be charged.
Let's say you didn't play for more than a few days, because you thought the game stinks. They send you an email saying the free time is almost up and you'll be charged for your renewing subscription. You don't see the email because, well, it's time you changed email anyway, so you don't cancel. Is it suddenly the company's fault? You got a case now? You going to go all class action suit on them? They charged for something you didn't agree to?
Maybe you saw that email and you went to their site and looked for a "Cancel my subscription or I'm going to go broke!" page, but there wasn't one or you couldn't find it. Later you notice in your bank statement you got charged for the subscription. Clearly the company let you down again! You got a class action suit against these guys! They didn't give you a webpage to cancel your subscription through!
Come on. The proof is in the pudding. Do any of these "victims" have any proof that they made an attempt to not subscribe?
If it was me, I'd contact Star Vault in some way. An email saying I did not want to continue my subscription would suffice. Maybe something about cancelling my account. Any of that?
Not, "The Terms of Service used to say something different, but I don't have a copy of the original one or anything." Or, "I don't even use that email anymore." Or, "They didn't give me a webpage with Subscribe or Don't subscribe buttons on it"
Courts of law are not the same as internet forums.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
This seems to be the fundamental difference and why you cannot seemingly understand what the majority of previous posters have said. If a company says you will be subscribed after doing X and Y. And you don't do X and Y... why would you have to do anything else? Not doing X and Y is the "attempt to not subscribe".
Also.. I believe I stated a few times previously that I wouldn't expect anyone to sue.. even 5000 people at $15 is only $75k..
Something can still be illegal without a lawsuit. I can steal money from a grocery store and never get convicted. It doesn't change the illegal nature of my action.
At least you agree that the company's practices are "sketchy", " unethical" and "shady". In short.. not the type of company you want to do business with. So in actuality we agree.. and are just debating a nuance!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Your actually wrong on that. Rgardless of the ToS in the U.S a company can not legally pull a bait-and-switch without explicitly informing the consumer of the policy change. sending out a newsletter@ email might cover thier arse, but technically its illigal for them to charge any who has NOT agreed to the changed ToS anything.
HOWEVER; if said customers read and clicked an "I AGREE" button or similar then they are bound by the ToS as stated and then are being billed rightly.
When in doubt, get more explosives.
Not sure what laws there are in ths US, but it seems most civilized countries have some kind of customer protection legislation?
As in yes, they can change the ToS and Eula at any time, or contract, or whatever, but you are not bound by the new one until you agree to the new one.
If this is legal, and seeing as all MMO's have the "change" clause in theirs does that mean that at any time they can change the monthly to 1000$, bill me, and get away with it?
Failry certain that there are no country on earth that allows a company to arbitrarily change a contract and have the the other part legally bound by it, regardless of what the original contract says.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm, to the first point, what other game would do what occured in MO. The thing is you don't even have your timeline correct. People purchased the pre-order from the company's online store which granted beta acces, they may or may not have even been able to log into beta, wrote off the game and forgot about it, and then the game launches months later and they suddenly have an active subscription.
Ummm, I've beta tested many games, bought games from online stores, and bought pre-orders, and not in any of these cases in 'other' games was I automatically signed up for a subscription based on either of those facts. In every case, at launch, I had to actively and knowingly subscribe to the game... not go out of my way to express the desire to not subscribe if I didn't want... even if I did buy the game in their online store or played in beta.
I recently bought a Virgin Mobile phone, and guess what I got... a phone and nothing more, no auto subscription, no auto-charge for time, not auto-anything. One time I bought a Magazine and guess what, I got a magazine and not a subscription. I know, it's probably blowing your mind, in these cases I had to actively and knowingly sign MYSELF up for the subscription, not have the company sign me up and me jump through hoops if I didn't want to be signed up.
Just because a product comes with a subscription, and the company has access to credit card information, doesn't mean it's within their right to start using it without the consent of the consumer.
To the last point.... let me guess, courts of law are not the same as internet forums, because only in one of those are you allowed to pretend you're the district attorney who is entitled to see proof.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
How odd for them to assume because you've pre-ordered you would like a renewing subscription.
How odd even though I'm not signed up for the news letter I still recieved the e-mail announcing the release and the auto re-new. The complaints are the real forum are closed usually and the person told to contact support. Other people have been lying and getting charge backs even though it's been proven they were playing the game (after saying they totally forgot).
You should never ASSUME with another person's money. Keep in mind these preorders were a YEAR ago. It's not up to a company to judge the intent of a customer. People either sign up for a subscription or they don't. There is no hanging chad.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Bottom line, is this is most likely not legal in most jurisdictions in the US at least, because of consumer protection laws. Companies pull shady stuff like this, because even though some people are savy enough to do and get chargebacks, many also do not.
And no one is going to sue over $50 or a $15/mo sub fee.
So companies continue to do it.
The most likely outcome of this is that people will call up their credit card companies and dispute the charges as unauthorized. The credit card companies will reverse the charges and the game publisher will not dispute the chargebacks. Anything else is not going to be worth the lawyer fees for everyone involved.
If this theoretically would go to trial, you would have to consider the laws in a particular juristictions. European countries have different lawsa about EULAs then the US which mostly applies standard contract case law for stuff like that.
In the US, the case law generally accepts EULA/TOS as valid contracts but scrutinizes them to see if they are 'reasonable'. So a EULA that goes too far outside what is standard practice can get invalidated.
In this case you have the extra long period between the preorder and the actual release date, people getting notified of the billing through a 'newsletter' and the fact that this is not standard industry practice. That's plenty of reason a judge might use to rule against the company on this.
yup SV did this to me too. called my creditcard company (have to wait 30days for w/e reason) but ill get my money back.
It clearly states in their own words, "ONCE YOU SET UP A SUBSCRIPTION blah blah blah. NO ONE who is bitching about this, set up anything kind of sub! and just because there is a TOS( that was changed halfway thru... WOW SHADY BUSINESS), doesnt mean shit. a company writing somthing does NOT make it law.
No one agreed to this, pretty pathetic of the company, just make sure ANYONE WHO HAD THIS DONE calls their CC company for a chargeback, youll get your moeny back 100%
also, make sure to tell everyone not to play mortal online, not only is the game the most ghetto thing youve seen, they are not honest business people and will try to charge every penny they "Can" before they go under.