I honestly think it would be a good social experiment to cut all the so-called 'work' out of WoW and let everyone get instant rewards for anything they ever want. Everyone would quit within a few weeks once they realised that none of the rewards held any value any more... and yet that's what most of the playerbase call for because otherwise it's too grindy and thus 'work'.
I do agree with you, it would be interesting to see how long people keep with a game that gives instant rewards. However I don't think the "work / effort = grind" mentality is just restricted to one game. I've witnessed people call all sorts of MMOs "grindy".
In my opinion, a lot of these replies in this thread are correct. It is predominantly the mindset of the player which determines whether an in game activity is a "grind", however the devs do have a duty to "sugar coat" it which includes using variations, options and stories to give the illusion. In my own opinion, the grind can be made to feel "less" grindy by building these qualities into the game. But, even when they do that, some players will still consider it too "grindy". Which comes right back to the mindset of the player. If the player isn't willing to accept the activity laid before them, then no amount of illusion will change it.
I didn't mean to suggest that WoW was the only game featuring players with this mentality but it is probably the most explicit example of it as Blizzard caters to that part of the playerbase a great deal.
When the best way to accomplish a task is to repeat a simple task i.e. kill mobs with no other purpose than to get X amount of XP or drops or materials to accomplish a goal. When a MMO doesnt attempt to hide the fact that you are going to have to kill X amount of rats or boars or whatever to get to the next level. When there is no story or purpose to your slaughter of mobs other than they are the best xp for that level like Lineage 2. Having to repeat content such as dungeons or raids many many times to accomplish your goals i.e. the badge system in WoW.
If you want to experience what a grind is go play Aion. Level to about 40 and then be left with only repeatable quests that send you to the same place to kill the same mob for the same reward over and over and over again until your eyes bleed. That pretty much sums up grind in my mind.
If something stops being fun or I have to find ways to entertain myself while doing something in game i.e. watching a movie, I consider it too much of a grind.
If something stops being fun or I have to find ways to entertain myself while doing something in game i.e. watching a movie, I consider it too much of a grind.
A very good example.
It's only a grind if it feels like work.....I already have a job!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
ANY Grinding is too much. A grind by definition is not fun. No grinding, period. At the first indication of forced repitition I generally find myself wanting to take a break from a game. Why would I want to artificially extend the amount of time between all of the elements I might enjoy by jumping onto a hamster wheel?
The introduction of the grind is possibly the worst game mechanic ever introduced into gaming. In some cases it's borderline criminal as it is specifically geared to emphasize the obsessive nature of a typical MMO gamer.
Really, what does "TOO MUCH GRINDING" in a MMORPG genre really mean?
If iam not killing (X), than iam simplay killing (Y,Z,A-W)
or collecting some other resource.
So what does "Too Much Grinding" really mean in this genre.
I have seen many complaints regarding this subject,
but from my view of the criticism that grinding gets,
the arguments against it just seems silly. MMORPG are suppose to be ever lasting. So of course things are going to repeat and over lap.
Until we get some form of NEXT GEN programming engines that allow developers to make new things very fast, we will not likely see the end of repeated task.
Many say Darkfall is a huge grinding getting skills up but ive never experience this game as a huge grinding isn't that strange ?
These days if people are not uber in one month they claim the game is a huge grind go figure.
Ithink its all in your mind its todays generation they want instant satisfaction prolly if posible in 2weeks:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Grinding to me, Is when you get to a certain level, and there are no more quests, or dungeons or anything at all to do to get your level in any area, so your are then forced to kill a mob, over, and over, and over until you get to a level in which you open up more quests.
Too much grinding is very subjective to the individual. When leveling becomes noticable to you to a point where the game ceases to be fun and becomes tedious. All games with character developement have a grind to some degree. The games with a noticable grind are the ones where you find yourself watching the experience bar more then your paying attention to the actual game. As I said though this is highly subjective and varies from person to person.
Bren
This sums it up for me.
I played iRO for years. There were no quests besides starter/class change ones. At higher levels you would spend a whole day killing just to get a sliver of exp. If you died...there went the past week of killing.
To me, it wasn't so bad because there was always something to keep my mind off the fact that I was just killing. I might have been trying to collect drops to make a hat or trying to get the pet or card from that mob. The community also played a big part in it for me. With all of these things, I never felt as if I was grinding.
Aion on the other hand, had quests. I found them too far in between and found myself running the same dungeons over and over. It felt more like a chore. I was not having fun and enjoying the game. I just felt like I needed to level. In the end, I just saw the whole game as ...empty. No content. Just a cycle. In this aspect, it was what made it feel grindy to me.
Too much grinding is very subjective to the individual. When leveling becomes noticable to you to a point where the game ceases to be fun and becomes tedious. All games with character developement have a grind to some degree. The games with a noticable grind are the ones where you find yourself watching the experience bar more then your paying attention to the actual game. As I said though this is highly subjective and varies from person to person.
Bren
This sums it up for me.
I played iRO for years. There were no quests besides starter/class change ones. At higher levels you would spend a whole day killing just to get a sliver of exp. If you died...there went the past week of killing.
To me, it wasn't so bad because there was always something to keep my mind off the fact that I was just killing. I might have been trying to collect drops to make a hat or trying to get the pet or card from that mob. The community also played a big part in it for me. With all of these things, I never felt as if I was grinding.
Aion on the other hand, had quests. I found them too far in between and found myself running the same dungeons over and over. It felt more like a chore. I was not having fun and enjoying the game. I just felt like I needed to level. In the end, I just saw the whole game as ...empty. No content. Just a cycle. In this aspect, it was what made it feel grindy to me.
The bit I've highlighted is one of the most overlooked elements of the grind issue I think. Highly social games with a strong community rarely feel too grindy as social interaction gives gameplay an infinitely dynamic variation. If you're having fun chatting to someone in game whilst you play you won't get fed up of the repetition anywhere near as quickly.
Grinding to me, Is when you get to a certain level, and there are no more quests, or dungeons or anything at all to do to get your level in any area, so your are then forced to kill a mob, over, and over, and over until you get to a level in which you open up more quests.
Indeed.
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
If you want to experience what a grind is go play Aion. Level to about 40 and then be left with only repeatable quests that send you to the same place to kill the same mob for the same reward over and over and over again until your eyes bleed. That pretty much sums up grind in my mind.
Ragnarok Online was, and still is, far worse.
Grind out mobs til you hit 10? Easy peezy.
Til you hit 50? Somewhat bearable.
Then you hit lvl 70. Every mob barely gives you a tenth of a percentage, and are often times in far, far out-of-the-way areas.
Now try doing that to the level cap.
Now, Rebirth! You're level 1 again, gotta grind all the way back to 255, just to get your 3rd class.
There is 0 quests, all equipment (that matters) has an ungodly low droprate off of rarer mobs, and then you'll have to find even harder-to-get cards to fill the stuff out.
There are three things to keep me interested in a game, story, gameplay and character development. Really a game would need to do 2 or more of those well to keep me interested for a longer period of time.
MMOs usually do very poorly at the story and gameplay aspects and only OK at character development, so they only hold my attention fo so long and I get bored, ie feel like I am grind from there on out.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
For me it's easy to define personally.When I run out of interesting content and have to camp mobs either solo or in groups repeatedly until my eyes bleed to make any headway in character progression.
I wonder when the hell somebody creates game where monsters are big, scary, do ton of damage and require a lot of talent to slay.
I WANT HARDER MONSTERS THAT TAKE A LOT MORE TIME TO KILL!!! (therefore require less kills to level.) Fighting such monsters would increase to my funfactor.... (Likely kill some of the requirement of having gazillion monsters roaming around, and then every single animal/creature out there wouldn't have to try to kill me...)
It's easy. When you are doing the same thing over and over and over and over, solely to get XP to level, that's a grind. Having people to talk to doesn't help, as someone suggested, it's still boring, repetitive nonsense which has no bearing whatsoever on the game except taking out an endless string of identical monsters for no reason whatsoever.
At the point I realize that's all I'm doing, I lose interest in playing the game completely.
I really enjoyed Everquest group grinds. I would sit and heal groups for 8 or more hours at a time. There was community in group grind games, soon as you logged on you would get a whisper "GET TO THE DREADLANDS!" Group grind I can handle.
Solo grind, I will quit the game. Solo grind I may as well play a single player game.
The problem with most of the modern mmmos, at least for me, is that there are almost to many quests to do and it seems to take away from grouping. Not that I don't enjoy quest hubs for maximized EXP, but most of the time people aren't on the same quest or just finished it and there is no reason to group up.
A game with quest hubs and group grind zones would be perfect.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
I really enjoyed Everquest group grinds. I would sit and heal groups for 8 or more hours at a time. There was community in group grind games, soon as you logged on you would get a whisper "GET TO THE DREADLANDS!" Group grind I can handle.
But in EQ's early days, most of the people who were playing were pretty "intelligent" and around 18-30. There were few children and if there were, most were very respectable to each other and fun to be around with.
Now all that changed, there's plenty of new players who are incapable of building a community and many already have a set of people they play with and won't go outside of their "cocoon".
Grinding is a chore in some games because the community just isn't there.
World of Warcraft!!! Can't say too much else on it, the blasted game is a grindfest...Gear Grind, Daily quest grind, Money Grind, Profession materials grind, Work your rear off, sorry (Ground my rear off) to get to level 80 to do what?? Grind for Gear to create Dps, Nothing more than bragging rights to say oh look how much I did?? please lol....then you bust rear at 80 doing the same instances over and over and over again to do what?? Grind for Gear!! Just to get that gear to top notch to do what after that? Raid!! but for what?? oh man...more gear!! woot! Man talk about exciting woohoo....yes I'm flaming the game and yes I played it when it first came out and just recently quit it, only stayed in to play with friends. So anyways yeah, that in my opinion is "TOO" much grinding just to keep running for gear upgrades.
World of Warcraft!!! Can't say too much else on it, the blasted game is a grindfest...Gear Grind, Daily quest grind, Money Grind, Profession materials grind, Work your rear off, sorry (Ground my rear off) to get to level 80 to do what?? Grind for Gear to create Dps, Nothing more than bragging rights to say oh look how much I did?? please lol....then you bust rear at 80 doing the same instances over and over and over again to do what?? Grind for Gear!! Just to get that gear to top notch to do what after that? Raid!! but for what?? oh man...more gear!! woot! Man talk about exciting woohoo....yes I'm flaming the game and yes I played it when it first came out and just recently quit it, only stayed in to play with friends. So anyways yeah, that in my opinion is "TOO" much grinding just to keep running for gear upgrades.
Welcome to themepark MMO's where everything is a grind . It's just a matter of enjoying the grind ( a grind isn't always bad) , if you don't , than ye , quit. You seem like a sandboxer, why did you waste your time on WoW?^^
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Comments
I didn't mean to suggest that WoW was the only game featuring players with this mentality but it is probably the most explicit example of it as Blizzard caters to that part of the playerbase a great deal.
When I need to partake in a stretch of boring, repetitive gameplay in a game to progress.
I call that a grind.
Whether something is boring, is liable to opinion however.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
When the best way to accomplish a task is to repeat a simple task i.e. kill mobs with no other purpose than to get X amount of XP or drops or materials to accomplish a goal. When a MMO doesnt attempt to hide the fact that you are going to have to kill X amount of rats or boars or whatever to get to the next level. When there is no story or purpose to your slaughter of mobs other than they are the best xp for that level like Lineage 2. Having to repeat content such as dungeons or raids many many times to accomplish your goals i.e. the badge system in WoW.
If you want to experience what a grind is go play Aion. Level to about 40 and then be left with only repeatable quests that send you to the same place to kill the same mob for the same reward over and over and over again until your eyes bleed. That pretty much sums up grind in my mind.
If something stops being fun or I have to find ways to entertain myself while doing something in game i.e. watching a movie, I consider it too much of a grind.
A very good example.
It's only a grind if it feels like work.....I already have a job!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
ANY Grinding is too much. A grind by definition is not fun. No grinding, period. At the first indication of forced repitition I generally find myself wanting to take a break from a game. Why would I want to artificially extend the amount of time between all of the elements I might enjoy by jumping onto a hamster wheel?
The introduction of the grind is possibly the worst game mechanic ever introduced into gaming. In some cases it's borderline criminal as it is specifically geared to emphasize the obsessive nature of a typical MMO gamer.
(signature blocked)
Many say Darkfall is a huge grinding getting skills up but ive never experience this game as a huge grinding isn't that strange ?
These days if people are not uber in one month they claim the game is a huge grind go figure.
Ithink its all in your mind its todays generation they want instant satisfaction prolly if posible in 2weeks:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
This ^
This sums it up for me.
I played iRO for years. There were no quests besides starter/class change ones. At higher levels you would spend a whole day killing just to get a sliver of exp. If you died...there went the past week of killing.
To me, it wasn't so bad because there was always something to keep my mind off the fact that I was just killing. I might have been trying to collect drops to make a hat or trying to get the pet or card from that mob. The community also played a big part in it for me. With all of these things, I never felt as if I was grinding.
Aion on the other hand, had quests. I found them too far in between and found myself running the same dungeons over and over. It felt more like a chore. I was not having fun and enjoying the game. I just felt like I needed to level. In the end, I just saw the whole game as ...empty. No content. Just a cycle. In this aspect, it was what made it feel grindy to me.
The bit I've highlighted is one of the most overlooked elements of the grind issue I think. Highly social games with a strong community rarely feel too grindy as social interaction gives gameplay an infinitely dynamic variation. If you're having fun chatting to someone in game whilst you play you won't get fed up of the repetition anywhere near as quickly.
Indeed.
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
Ragnarok Online was, and still is, far worse.
Grind out mobs til you hit 10? Easy peezy.
Til you hit 50? Somewhat bearable.
Then you hit lvl 70. Every mob barely gives you a tenth of a percentage, and are often times in far, far out-of-the-way areas.
Now try doing that to the level cap.
Now, Rebirth! You're level 1 again, gotta grind all the way back to 255, just to get your 3rd class.
There is 0 quests, all equipment (that matters) has an ungodly low droprate off of rarer mobs, and then you'll have to find even harder-to-get cards to fill the stuff out.
Whenever I feel bored I feel like I am grinding.
There are three things to keep me interested in a game, story, gameplay and character development. Really a game would need to do 2 or more of those well to keep me interested for a longer period of time.
MMOs usually do very poorly at the story and gameplay aspects and only OK at character development, so they only hold my attention fo so long and I get bored, ie feel like I am grind from there on out.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
For me it's easy to define personally.When I run out of interesting content and have to camp mobs either solo or in groups repeatedly until my eyes bleed to make any headway in character progression.
Getting 1000-5000 kills to get level is too much.
Doing 10 quests to get lvl is too much.
Killing tons of easy monsters is too much..
I wonder when the hell somebody creates game where monsters are big, scary, do ton of damage and require a lot of talent to slay.
I WANT HARDER MONSTERS THAT TAKE A LOT MORE TIME TO KILL!!! (therefore require less kills to level.) Fighting such monsters would increase to my funfactor.... (Likely kill some of the requirement of having gazillion monsters roaming around, and then every single animal/creature out there wouldn't have to try to kill me...)
Kindest regards,
DKW
It's easy. When you are doing the same thing over and over and over and over, solely to get XP to level, that's a grind. Having people to talk to doesn't help, as someone suggested, it's still boring, repetitive nonsense which has no bearing whatsoever on the game except taking out an endless string of identical monsters for no reason whatsoever.
At the point I realize that's all I'm doing, I lose interest in playing the game completely.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Aion.
add Lineage and any F2P games and discussion over.
Simple to answer, since it is completely objective..
Too much grind is whatever grind you feel is too much.
or
One man's grind is another man's preferred playstyle.
Take your pick.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Also, a grind seems much more tedious if it's for lvls or stats... a gear grind doesn't really bother me that much.
I really enjoyed Everquest group grinds. I would sit and heal groups for 8 or more hours at a time. There was community in group grind games, soon as you logged on you would get a whisper "GET TO THE DREADLANDS!" Group grind I can handle.
Solo grind, I will quit the game. Solo grind I may as well play a single player game.
The problem with most of the modern mmmos, at least for me, is that there are almost to many quests to do and it seems to take away from grouping. Not that I don't enjoy quest hubs for maximized EXP, but most of the time people aren't on the same quest or just finished it and there is no reason to group up.
A game with quest hubs and group grind zones would be perfect.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
But in EQ's early days, most of the people who were playing were pretty "intelligent" and around 18-30. There were few children and if there were, most were very respectable to each other and fun to be around with.
Now all that changed, there's plenty of new players who are incapable of building a community and many already have a set of people they play with and won't go outside of their "cocoon".
Grinding is a chore in some games because the community just isn't there.
World of Warcraft!!! Can't say too much else on it, the blasted game is a grindfest...Gear Grind, Daily quest grind, Money Grind, Profession materials grind, Work your rear off, sorry (Ground my rear off) to get to level 80 to do what?? Grind for Gear to create Dps, Nothing more than bragging rights to say oh look how much I did?? please lol....then you bust rear at 80 doing the same instances over and over and over again to do what?? Grind for Gear!! Just to get that gear to top notch to do what after that? Raid!! but for what?? oh man...more gear!! woot! Man talk about exciting woohoo....yes I'm flaming the game and yes I played it when it first came out and just recently quit it, only stayed in to play with friends. So anyways yeah, that in my opinion is "TOO" much grinding just to keep running for gear upgrades.
Welcome to themepark MMO's where everything is a grind . It's just a matter of enjoying the grind ( a grind isn't always bad) , if you don't , than ye , quit. You seem like a sandboxer, why did you waste your time on WoW?^^
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.