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A concern: the lack of choice

2

Comments

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    I have no choice. From the moment the game launches, an "auto-play" program will whisk me through picking faction, class, character customization, all the storylines (it'll pick my choices too, I won't even get to decide whether I want to be Light or Dark side), determining who I group with and what group content is available, crafting, PvP, and everything else. I mean, aren't BioWare games basically like watching movies nowadays anyways? It sounds like a big ol' movie to me, just not in the traditional "99% cutscenes" sense.

    image

  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 371

    Originally posted by Comnitus

    I have no choice. From the moment the game launches, an "auto-play" program will whisk me through picking faction, class, character customization, all the storylines (it'll pick my choices too, I won't even get to decide whether I want to be Light or Dark side), determining who I group with and what group content is available, crafting, PvP, and everything else. I mean, aren't BioWare games basically like watching movies nowadays anyways? It sounds like a big ol' movie to me, just not in the traditional "99% cutscenes" sense.

    I dislike that classes are tied to a certain faction, so I'll give you that up front, but most of the other things listed are indeed choices you get to make.  You DO get to choose light or dark.  The choices you make along your class story determine this.  You get certain ability choices based on your light or dark orientation.  You have the choice of grouping for most of the game's content.  You can choose to PvP or not to PvP.  You can choose to PvP in a group or go out and solo gank people.  You can choose open world PvP (on a PvP server) or to participate in Battleground PvP.  Very little has been released on crafting at this point, so I won't say much here, but I expect you'll get to choose what type of crafting you like to specialize in.

     

    As I said before, this is no sandbox game, so those "open world - player makes his own content" type choices will not be present.  Then again, though, that isn't what this game is designed to be.  The freedom to choose IS here though.


  • AnubisanAnubisan Member UncommonPosts: 1,798

    Originally posted by Deewe

    It seems, for now, there will be a serious lack of choice after character creation.

    We're going to be stuck with a race: ok as in 99% of all MMO

    As you said, this is no different from any other MMORPG. It wouldn't make much sense if you could alter your race after character creation...

    The class choice will be permanent: still as the usual stuff but for a very few MMO

    This is also standard in almost every MMORPG. The ones that allow you to constantly change everything around tend to be extremely imbalanced and one or two alpha builds end up dominating the game. The only way to develop a game where every playstyle has value is to utilize classes and this will be a good thing for aspects like PvP.

    The advanced class, seen by most just as enhanced skill trees separation: might stay permanent.

    Bioware has already confirmed that players will be able to re-configure they talent trees. I forsee it being very much like the WoW talent trees that people constantly change them to min/max for certain situations.

    The story type: will be set with the class

    True, but it will also be a Bioware story - meaning that it will change based upon your actions. And if the storyline is different for every class in the game and different depending on player decisions, it will provide MUCH more choice than currently exists in most other MMORPGs. Unless of course you want to be a nerf herder... in which case I suggest you play SWG.

    The combat game play: will be picked up with the class choice

    Yes, but it will be customizable based on the style you wish to play. Every player of a given class will be SIMILAR, but there will likely be big differences between different talent specs of the same class...

    The gear choice: seems very class and tier oriented

    This is true, but so what? It doesn't make sense for a Bounty Hunter to wear a jedi robe or vise-versa. There will still be mountains of different gear sets for you to choose from.

    The player space ships: shall to be dictated by the class choice

    We don't know the specifics about how this system works yet. Even if they are class specific, I don't mind as long as they are cool.

    The world stories: will unfold and be locked with group choices (ok after character creation skill no save/load | respec...)

    Bioware has already confirmed that important individual decisions regarding a player's individual storyline will only be selectable by that character during the dialogue sequences. The other players in the group will be able to vote on how to respond to other dialogue choices, but not the important class-specific ones...

    Not another one of these threads... Let me guess, you played Star Wars Galaxies for years and you would rather be a nerf herder than actually play out a Star Wars storyline right? Well, I'm sorry but this game might not be for you. If you can't help but compare this game to SWG, you will never enjoy it. They are not the same types of games and they are not made by the same companies. They have TOTALLY different design philosophies. And for good reason...

    SWG may have been a great sandbox game, but it was never a great STAR WARS game. It lacked so much of what makes Star Wars exciting and entertaining. The game was losing subs even at its supposed peak (before the NGE) which is why SOE decided to change the direction of the game in the first place. It wasn't working as they hoped it would. Can you blame them for wanting to go a different direction? It's just business...

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195

    I find that TOR will actually give players quite a bit of choice, where choice is applicable.  You get to choose different races, different classes, then different advanced classes and other tiered power sets,  along with alignment choice.  You get to choose your combat style, your gear choices, and you get to make your own decisions which affects much of the prior things mentioned, throughout the entire game.

     

    It doesn't sound that locked down to me.  The ships being tied down by class? That could be a little farfetched, however, they said each ship would be customizable.  

     

    If you're looking at this game and thinking that you have LESS choice then other comparable themeparks, you'd be wrong.  If you are looking at this game and thinking you have LESS choice then SANDBOX style games, then you'd be correct.  This isn't a sandbox game, but it will have "sandbox style elements" whatever that means.

     

    Altogether, I'm very happy with the many different choices and customization options  players have been given so far (based on the information released). 



  • NovaKayneNovaKayne Member Posts: 743

    HAHAHAHA

     

    Please do not get me wrong, I am an avid fanboi of the pre-NGE SWG.

     

    To say it had a choice is a bad analogy.  I had no choice on wether I wanted to play a Pistolleer AND a Bounty Hunter!  I had to play one or the other or some bastardized version of each.  Unless I wanted to not play with friends and play on a different server.

     

    SWG only allowed one character per server.  If I wanted to try something else and play with friends I had to wipe out what I was doing and start over and HOPE it was not the SUK.

     

    So there.  It can be had both ways.  Just because it was a system you liked and it allowed some mixing and matching of skills does not mean it was better.  It was fun, it was playable and it had bugs.  Did it need to go away?  No, just fix the issues and balance.  Probably something they would still be working on to this day with all of the QQ in games these days.

    Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

    In SWG you had the choice to change. 

    There will be many choices in TOR, maybe more than in SWG. As understood by some the issue lies in the fact they will be definitive.

  • DanwarrDanwarr Member CommonPosts: 185

    Originally posted by Hrothmund

    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA


    Originally posted by Hrothmund


    Originally posted by Deewe


    Originally posted by Miffy

    Advance classes wont be permanent, unless bioware are really stupid.

     They are for now.

    Looking at the revenue they bring in, I beg to differ.

    Bioware does not care about an estranged gaming minority, in this case the sandbox-o-philes. This is obvious. Bioware is not creating a sandbox game. Does this make them stupid, hell no! This is a cashcow game, just like WoW, but if its a well executed themepark that respects the Star Wars lore, I'll surely play it.

     

    Dude, this game doesn't even come close to respecting the Star Wars lore. You can garner that from the gameplay trailers and even the 3d scenematic trailers.

    Compare all of that shit to the original 3 movies? They're nothing alike... I mean, put a dog in a cat costume and its still not a cat.

    George Lucas has intentionally expanded the universe and toned down the more mature and sinister feel of the original trilogy to attract children and their parents to the franchise.

    Since when was the original trilogy ever mature and sinister?

    All of the Star Wars movies are very simple in terms of plot structure and character development.

    Only the games and books have been very complex and "mature".

    Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
    Playing: ESO,DCUO
    Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape

  • ConverseSCConverseSC Member Posts: 572

    You want to be able to randomly changed your class and race in the middle of the game?

     

    Are you drunk?

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

    Originally posted by ConverseSC

    You want to be able to randomly changed your class and race in the middle of the game?

    Race? Why not after a year of playing so we don't have to once again go through the same scripted story lines once again.

     

    Class? It does not mean because you are not used to it that it's a bad thing even RP wise.

  • TazlorTazlor Member UncommonPosts: 864

    you want to be able to change your race, class, and class advancement in the middle of the game?  i could see changing your advancement, but race and class?

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

    Originally posted by Tazlor

    you want to be able to change your race, class, and class advancement in the middle of the game?  i could see changing your advancement, but race and class?

    Race (maybe with RMT to prevent abuse) so it's not a painful process to enjoy other races with the same class: yes

     

    Class, in a skill based game, as in Pre-CU SWG, yes in a level based one, no need: make an alt.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Wow, the requests and wishes for SW:TOR are getting weirder and weirder.

     

    On the other hand, Aion allows you to change the sex of your character among other things, so why not, changing into a mini Jabba-like Hutt or a mutant space sheep, should be fun.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 708

    You boys are talking about choices in the appearance, mostly... class, race.

    Those are not choices, that's character creation. 

    I understand that some aren't accustomed yet with this old element of interaction.

    Choices affect the plot that affects the character that affects the plot. Choices often(too often) deal with morality and psychology. They DO make you change "rails" inside a story.

    Choices in TOR are supposed to ultimately affect what you DO, not the character's appearance, skills and similar useless stuff(useless for me, i don't care whether i shoot, i swing, i steal, i smuggle, i am pointy ear, blue, green, white)

    Simply put, during a quest you decide to kill a captain, now the army hates you. This leads to new activities for example obliterating(maybe from space) some garrisons that belong to generals... and naturally PvP.

    Choices are supposed to make you feel the maker of your own destiny, that is, your career.

    Naturally if Bioware doesn't give good choices and good consequences, nobody will care about story, everyone will skip thru text, pick random choices, and rush to killing and casual fun :)

  • IsaneIsane Member UncommonPosts: 2,630

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

    They only choice you need is to play the game or not.

    That's a very constructive input thank you for wasting your time writing it, at least I enjoyed replying.

    It is constructive but your post is pretty poor, and is full of assumptions, as such yuou probably deserve the tepid reply.

    There could be loads of gameplay elements with respect to charachter development which are not linear and where choices exist, but nobody knows . I suggest you play the game and then start whining about it when you are a little more informed otherwise you are wasting everyones time.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose Member Posts: 1,558

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by FreddyNoNose

    They only choice you need is to play the game or not.

    That's a very constructive input thank you for wasting your time writing it, at least I enjoyed replying.

     Why don't you make your own game and put it up for all to praise?   What bioware does with their money is not really any of your business.  It's not up for you to design their game for them.

  • DeeweDeewe Member UncommonPosts: 1,980

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    You boys are talking about choices in the appearance, mostly... class, race.

    Those are not choices, that's character creation. 

    For some yes, you have a point but for some other nonetheless important it isn't.

     

    For example either you choose your combat game play, read class, or your storyline. Ie: don't expect enjoying a "Bounty Hunter story" lightly armored using stealthy skills.

     

    The world quest while interesting will certainly lead to rage explosion over the forums as your character isn't on control of the upcoming choices.

     

    Personally I wouldn't mind choices, but in TOR it seems a bit too much, like you are stuck once for all with your choices or... regrind through up to 200h of story. This seem madness, not a FUN game.

  • Gibblets411Gibblets411 Member Posts: 4

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Personally I wouldn't mind choices, but in TOR it seems a bit too much, like you are stuck once for all with your choices or... regrind through up to 200h of story. This seem madness, not a FUN game.

    Seems to me that since it's a Bioware game, it'll most likely be exactly like that, but really... How would you implement a system that let you change basically everything that you've done and then re-insert you midway through the story, It's just like mass effect, accidently press enter to skip a bit of chatter and you end up shooting the poor sucker in the gut lol...

     

    The only solution i could see to this would be implementing a save / load feature like in the singleplayer game but only for the solo class quests or however it'll be layed out.

  • BunnykingBunnyking Member UncommonPosts: 126

    I actually like that your choices have consequences. You shouldn't be skipping dialogue anyway if Bioware do their job right. I know I didn't skip any dialogue in ME2 except on 2nd, 3rd and even 4th play-throughs. But since it's an MMO and you're supposed to be playing your character for a LONG time, I don't see many real MMO players doing a 2nd playthrough of the same class just to see different outcomes (not talking about RPG players, those might actually do it).

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by Deewe

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    You boys are talking about choices in the appearance, mostly... class, race.

    Those are not choices, that's character creation. 

    For some yes, you have a point but for some other nonetheless important it isn't.

     

    For example either you choose your combat game play, read class, or your storyline. Ie: don't expect enjoying a "Bounty Hunter story" lightly armored using stealthy skills.

     

    The world quest while interesting will certainly lead to rage explosion over the forums as your character isn't on control of the upcoming choices.

     

    Personally I wouldn't mind choices, but in TOR it seems a bit too much, like you are stuck once for all with your choices or... regrind through up to 200h of story. This seem madness, not a FUN game.

     I agree that the choice in class will give you an expected story arc that fits that class. Obviously each class will be very different in how the story unfolds. So that will be a big choice right off the bat that you have to make. Especially if you only want to have one main in the game.

     

    As far as choice that will make a difference in your character developement. It will mainly be the class story arc that will have this type of choice. Your skills that will be available and which advanced character you want will be dependent on the choices in your class story.

     

    The world stroy arc choices will make a difference in your light/grey/dark leanings only. They will not change anything with your character developement other than gear. So the gear chase should be there in the world story arcs and flashpoints. Your character developement choices that help you shape your character in your class story will have meaning. To me, that seems to be a nice blend of RPG and MMO.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Gibblets411Gibblets411 Member Posts: 4

    Originally posted by Bunnyking

    I actually like that your choices have consequences. You shouldn't be skipping dialogue anyway if Bioware do their job right. I know I didn't skip any dialogue in ME2 except on 2nd, 3rd and even 4th play-throughs. But since it's an MMO and you're supposed to be playing your character for a LONG time, I don't see many real MMO players doing a 2nd playthrough of the same class just to see different outcomes (not talking about RPG players, those might actually do it).

    I never really thought of that, good point!  But then again, the people who are paying for the World of Star Wars sorta feel might not give a shit about the conversations and just skip through like crazy, but then it wouldn't matter anyway cause they never cared in the first place...

    Personally i'll be playing this game cause it's another amazing Bioware game, 8 storylines not including non-class ones... I'm looking at it as a KoToR with upgraded combat, without the pausing (cause it's multiplayer derp), and massive amounts of content, AND best of all, constant updates!!  Lol call me a fanboy but i'm way too excited for this game for it to be healthy.

     

    EDIT: Meant to say this somewhere in there: It's going to be another amazing Bioware game BUT with multiplayer support!  And chat rooms... err I mean guilds lol

  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 501

    Originally posted by Deewe

    The more I read about TOR and the more I think about it, the more it brings me back to this short sentence I wrote here:

    "I'd say the first pillar of SW was not crafting, not even socialization and even less combat (player bounties) it was choice."

     

    It seems, for now, there will be a serious lack of choice after character creation.


    • We're going to be stuck with a race: ok as in 99% of all MMO

    • The class choice will be permanent: still as the usual stuff but for a very few MMO

    • The advanced class, seen by most just as enhanced skill trees separation: might stay permanent.

    • The story type: will be set with the class

    • The combat game play: will be picked up with the class choice

    • The gear choice: seems very class and tier oriented

    • The player space ships: shall to be dictated by the class choice

    • The world stories: will unfold and be locked with group choices (ok after character creation skill no save/load | respec...)

     


    What I see is choosing a class/race will put you like a train on rails, taking out of your hands mostly any possibilities to change your mind at any stage of your character life after avatar creation.


     


     


    It might spice up things for some but, personally I already experience all that daily in the real world. You know thoughts like: if I knew I would...


    As such I don't see it very fun being stuck with such early choices, needing us to regrind through hundred of story based content twice, or more, to "change".


     


    /discuss

    Well wow needed a few expansions to master homogenization, TOR is going to get it out of the way on release, everything will be pre fab that way their won't be any problems scaling RAID loot.

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    Originally posted by wanderica

    Originally posted by Comnitus

    I have no choice. From the moment the game launches, an "auto-play" program will whisk me through picking faction, class, character customization, all the storylines (it'll pick my choices too, I won't even get to decide whether I want to be Light or Dark side), determining who I group with and what group content is available, crafting, PvP, and everything else. I mean, aren't BioWare games basically like watching movies nowadays anyways? It sounds like a big ol' movie to me, just not in the traditional "99% cutscenes" sense.

    I dislike that classes are tied to a certain faction, so I'll give you that up front, but most of the other things listed are indeed choices you get to make.  You DO get to choose light or dark.  The choices you make along your class story determine this.  You get certain ability choices based on your light or dark orientation.  You have the choice of grouping for most of the game's content.  You can choose to PvP or not to PvP.  You can choose to PvP in a group or go out and solo gank people.  You can choose open world PvP (on a PvP server) or to participate in Battleground PvP.  Very little has been released on crafting at this point, so I won't say much here, but I expect you'll get to choose what type of crafting you like to specialize in.

     

    As I said before, this is no sandbox game, so those "open world - player makes his own content" type choices will not be present.  Then again, though, that isn't what this game is designed to be.  The freedom to choose IS here though.

    Sorry... forgot the /sarcasm off.

    image

  • IsaneIsane Member UncommonPosts: 2,630

    Originally posted by Gibblets411

    Originally posted by Bunnyking

    I actually like that your choices have consequences. You shouldn't be skipping dialogue anyway if Bioware do their job right. I know I didn't skip any dialogue in ME2 except on 2nd, 3rd and even 4th play-throughs. But since it's an MMO and you're supposed to be playing your character for a LONG time, I don't see many real MMO players doing a 2nd playthrough of the same class just to see different outcomes (not talking about RPG players, those might actually do it).

    I never really thought of that, good point!  But then again, the people who are paying for the World of Star Wars sorta feel might not give a shit about the conversations and just skip through like crazy, but then it wouldn't matter anyway cause they never cared in the first place...

    Personally i'll be playing this game cause it's another amazing Bioware game, 8 storylines not including non-class ones... I'm looking at it as a KoToR with upgraded combat, without the pausing (cause it's multiplayer derp), and massive amounts of content, AND best of all, constant updates!!  Lol call me a fanboy but i'm way too excited for this game for it to be healthy.

     

    EDIT: Meant to say this somewhere in there: It's going to be another amazing Bioware game BUT with multiplayer support!  And chat rooms... err I mean guilds lol

    It is an MMO first not as an afterthought.....

    Multiplayer/Chat rooms and MMO feature support pre-empts any storyline.....

    The storyline is something Bioware do well so they have added some immersion for the core classes , they would be stupid not to do this.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • eburneburn Member Posts: 740

    Well with anything the biggest problem is the lack of choice.

    For TOR and BioWare I don't think the lack of choice in this instance is terrible. It's kind of refreshing that the story will have such an impact on a MMORPG's world.

    It'll be a problem that within 6 months of launch they're taking subs and there's not a whole lot being added to the game world tho'. Growth in choice is going to be expected.

    I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.

  • RaizeenRaizeen Member Posts: 622

    Originally posted by Danwarr

    Originally posted by Hrothmund


    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA


    Originally posted by Hrothmund


    Originally posted by Deewe


    Originally posted by Miffy

    Advance classes wont be permanent, unless bioware are really stupid.

     They are for now.

    Looking at the revenue they bring in, I beg to differ.

    Bioware does not care about an estranged gaming minority, in this case the sandbox-o-philes. This is obvious. Bioware is not creating a sandbox game. Does this make them stupid, hell no! This is a cashcow game, just like WoW, but if its a well executed themepark that respects the Star Wars lore, I'll surely play it.

     

    Dude, this game doesn't even come close to respecting the Star Wars lore. You can garner that from the gameplay trailers and even the 3d scenematic trailers.

    Compare all of that shit to the original 3 movies? They're nothing alike... I mean, put a dog in a cat costume and its still not a cat.

    George Lucas has intentionally expanded the universe and toned down the more mature and sinister feel of the original trilogy to attract children and their parents to the franchise.

    Since when was the original trilogy ever mature and sinister?

    All of the Star Wars movies are very simple in terms of plot structure and character development.

    Only the games and books have been very complex and "mature".

    the OP never played the kotor series so he doesent know what hes talking about and the only thing he knows about the star wars lore is what he has seen from the movies so theres no point in trying to explain to him

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