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TOR is the end of solo vs group
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
I was watching this video:
http://comic-con.gamespot.com/video/6270912/
From around minute 9 to minute 10:20 or so is what I thought was so interesting.
Have you played any bioware games, like KOTOR for example?
In KOTOR the leveling is fun. But you're not really playing to level. You're playing to get through the story, and leveling is a bonus.
That's what paper and pencil Dungeons and dragons used to be. YEs, you leveled, but what was fun was the story you made up together.
Devs blow smoke out of their ass, so maybe this won't pan out. But when they said, we played our game, and it doesn't FEEL like any MMORPG you've ever played, I thought they were on to something.
I was skeptical about the whole "story" thing in the beginning, but I think that was indeed the missing link.
The story in MMORPGs just sucks out lout. Go get me 10 rats tails, blah, blah, blah. Go take this letter to Finkeldorpah, blah, blah, blah.
Which is why quest grinding is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring.
But KOTOR and other bioware games aren't like that. You actually get engrossed in the story because it's told so well.
And they are doing voiceovers, cut scenes, the works.
And that's why alts can be frustrating. Oh man, I got to deliver a letter to Finkeldoprpa AGAIN! and it was boooorrrrrringg the first time.
PLUS they have multiplayer stories. This sounds like the most fun ever in an MMORPG to me, where we all get to decide together what will happen next in the story. Well, the devs describe it better than me.
So you're not just quest grinding to the level cap, you're experiencing the story, and many players will want to do the multiplayer stories, I think.
And you'll WANT to roll an alt, to see the story of that class, which will be different. I could be wrong, but I think this one will be a game changer.
In other words, I'll actually WANT to do some of the content solo, because it won't be as boring as watching paint dry, and the group content will be even better.
Comments
I enjoyed the video and it got me thinking...
uh....
Hopefully the story makes sense. I hated in Aion how everyone is a missing general on the elyos side.
I also don't see how you get solo & group play being ended by this?
So why will it be the end of solo vs group??
And to bad you cant play it Ihmotepp since its going to have microtransactions
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
SWTOR is going to have a cash shop? Seriously?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
The devs won't say exactly what they have planned until closer to release when it comes to a cash shop. They won't say there's a cash shop where you can buy XP potions, they won't say there is not a cash shop where yuo can buy xp potions.
So there is rampant speculation, everything from no cash shop, to only fluff, to OMG! it will be subscription with a full cash shop of uber items! ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it will be the end of solo versus group, because you won't be playing for XP. The XP will be secondary to doing the story.
Some of the story is solo, or more about YOUR character. You can solo that part or bring along friends. Some of the story is about the world, and more geared towards grouping. You'll WANT to experience that part of the story, probably with other players.
The devs explained it like this. There's the scene where Luke trains with Yoda. that's the Solo story. You can bring friends if you want, but they can't make decisons about your Jedi training story. When a misison comes up, YOU make the call how you will handle it, either solo or with friends.
But then there's things like the battle on Hoth. that's not a "solo" sort of mission, but more of a world conflict. You'll probably be in a group for that, like Luke, Han, Chewy, Leia, 3po, etc. In these missions the GROUP gets to vote on how to handle things. The devs said they wont' penalize you with dark side points if you are light side and the group votes to do the dark side action.
IMO, this is the meat of the game. What are we going to do? Kill the pilot and hijack the ship, or help the pilot fight off some raiders? You wont' know till everyone votes!
You can skip the world conflict, or maybe do it solo (I'm not really sure on that), but you'll be missing out on a big chunk of the story content.
If you aren't interested in teh story at all, the game isn't for you, and you probably won't like it.
If you watch the video, the story makes sense. The Bioware devs said they spent 10 years developing software specificlly to help them structure stories, keep track of the characters, weapons, rewards, races, etc., etc., and if you've played a Bioware game you know they tell good stories.
For the solo vs group thing, I think of it like this.
Solo players get jealous of group players earn more XP in groups than they do solo. But if you make the entire game soloable for the same xp, it pretty much dumbs it down for the groupers until there's no challenge.
In this case, the conflict will not be over XP, but story content.
Group players will get reward with more Story, instead of more XP, which will make the game feel challenging, to get through all the group story content.
There needs to be SOME reason to group.
I kill a Mob and get 10 xp.
Ok, let's group, kill two Mobs, and get 10 xp each.
Why? What's the point? None.
In decent grouping games the "point" is, we get 15 XP each instead of 10, and have to use different tactics to get it, and the mob is tougher than either of us could kill alone.
In this game the "point" of grouping will be you get to access the world story.
I really can't see this being any different than WoW, where the majority of players will solo because they can. A few players will run with thier friends and guilds, and most will only group when they have to for gear rewards or to finish the story (likely for some gear rewards). The only speculative difference I can see is that all the solo players may not see as many other players running around soloing around them because they will be stuck in storyline instances.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That's also a possibility. It's hard to say until you see the design implemented. Certainly after listening to the developers I didn't think that WAR would play the way it did.
well for me Gw2 is the end of the group vs solo deabte, you are doing an event other player just join in, no need to BEG for party, no need to stop action do invite someone, you just pump in the event increases the dificulty, everyone wins. But hey WIN WIN, end of the debate both in fantasy and sci-fi genres =p
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
I think this focus on storytelling is what is going to be the downfal of Star Wars: The Old Republic.
The problem with telling a story in an MMORPG is that players expect to play the game for months to come. Look at games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. These games take years to develop, yet they are completed in a number of weeks or even days.
The reason why games like WoW have such bad stories in quests is because there are so many of them. I think Bioware will put so much effort into the quality of the cutscenes and dialogue etc at the expense of quantity that players will very soon run out of things to do.
In an MMORPG, the term quality over quantity doesn't really apply.
I for one will never waste good money on shitty MMOs that ignore storytelling for the most part just cuz they've got gazillion "fetch me rat claws" mission.
With Regards,
Caed Lucin
Who are you and what have you done with Ihmotepp?
Well, ok, I'm glad you've found something to look forward too but I can't share your enthusiasm. As you yourself have pointed out numerous times it's not enough that you can group, it's the nature of the grouping which makes it good or bad.
Is there any indication that there will be anything which will prevent these group missions from falling into the "mad dash" category? You know, where you join a group and then it's just shut up and keep up while they run frantically through the mission to finish it as fast as possible. Because when grouping is like that I'd rather not even bother.
Are you certain you can't use henchmen in place of live players to run the group content? Because if you can it's going to really cut into the pool of players available to group with.
Also, if the only reward is getting to see some different segment of the story I have serious doubts that that will be enough motivation to encourage grouping. I honestly can't believe that a very large percentage of players would care enough about that to bother with it if seeing a different story segment is the only reward. I mean, they could just go on with the single player story right? So why bother taking extra time and hassle just to hear a few different lines of voice acting and some cut scene they would otherwise miss?
Eh, anyway, like I said I can't share your enthusiasm. We'll see how it turns out. Just don't get your hopes up too high.
Kinda like another recent gutter game? STO, much better then average story line and arcs but ended up playing like a single player game that ultimately you go to the end of and had nothing more to do.
MMOs need to return to their more open 'sandbox' like roots, that is what makes them have longevity. Like Oblivion, not great story telling at all. But I've played it for far longer and with more interest via mods and such due to it's open ended nature then I have any game before.
Sounds cool on paper. I found the Public Quests in WAR to be very boring.
My prediction for this game,
It will be fun while it lasts, but it will not last long, ie short on content. There will be little need for other players. It will get glowing reviews but will have a short retention rate.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Not everything has been revealed, and we won't know for sure until the game releases. But I'm sure they will ad a bit of grind to the stories.
So you get a great story arc, with voiced dialog, great writing, star wars lore, cut scenes, the works.
But to finish that one arc, and there are hundreds of story arcs, you have to kill 3800 storm troopers, and there's your "quantity".
I don't know, but that's certainly one way to give it the longevity you're looking for.
Is that worse than doing 100 quests that are go get me ten rat claws, new quest get me ten bat claws, new quest get me ten wolf pelts, new quest get me ten spider eyes, new quest get me ten troll toes...
All I can about this is that the name of my next MMO character is definitely going to be Finkeldorpa
I think SW TOR will be quality AND quantity.
Why? Each class has about 200 hours of story content (confirmed in another interview), up to the point that the Bioware devs state that each class plays as an entire KOTOR game, and that SW:TOR is KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7 etc. That's 800 hours of fully unique (other confirmed statement) class story content for each side, if you like to play alts.
And that's only a (small) part of your gametime.
On top of that, you have the regular quests that resemble regular quests in other MMO's. Then you have the world arcs that are about the larger conflict, as the interview in OP elaborates upon. All these can be done with a group or solo, and are shareable, even more: who you bring with you have their own replies and interaction they bring with them into the dialogue and quests.
Those are the quests and missions. Added to that, they've stated that the planets will be huge and that exploration will be rewarded in several ways. Some playtesters already commented upon how large the starter planets were, but the other planets will be several magnitudes more massive.
On top of that you also have space combat now.
And all those are just the things they've released for now, there are still areas left open that they still need to talk about.
Sounds large and immersive an MMO already to me.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
There'll be no henchmen that can fill out your group like in GW, your Companions are nothing more than enhanced and more interactive pets.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If I could ask one question of the developers it would be, "What happens after the story is over?".
Isn't that the same question for any MMO as asking what do I do when I hit max level?
That's where the typical MMO endgame comes in I would think. What that is for TOR remains to be seen, but all we know is they will have it.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
That was because they were very boring, grindy and static.
kill/gather 50 of this stuff, then kill/gather 20 if that harder stuff, then kill this boss.
wash rinse repeat.
GW2 promises something different. Lets see if their asses can cash the checks their mouths wrote.
They actually answered that in the video.
First, they want you to play alts. The story is different for each character, and hugely different for Empire vs Republic.
Empire and Republic have zero shared quests.
Same side has different character class quests for each class, but they share world quests.
In KOTOR for example, I played through twice, once as dark side, and once as light side, since the story was different.
the other answer is, expansion packs.
They already said they are designing the game to allow for expansion packs, so no dead end stories.
It's just so comical how excited your are about this game as a pro-grouper, Ihmotepp.
Too bad!
They will keep us apart with 50-foot shackles! I SEE THE FUTURE!