Farmville...is not going for gamers. It's in an entirely different market on its own. Its numbers are of no concern to MMO players.
You could have said that about WoW, because it was NOT designed for original MMORPG players, it was designed for the casual, drop in for 10 minutes every few day player.
if a dev company wants to give away/rish what they got in hand for something they may get let them do so because they lose what they got and still wont get the new stuff.
ppl forget the fact that who strike first strike 2 times and this is why we get WoW clones, if anyone want to make their game mainstream they will fail because the game was not made for main stream from the get go.
Farmville...is not going for gamers. It's in an entirely different market on its own. Its numbers are of no concern to MMO players.
You know that. I know that. Look at the image though as a person that may not know that. It would appear that FarmVille is what gamers want as the most popular online game! So, folks will develop more FarmVille!
No?
couldn't agree more. its all we've seen since....well...
First of all, everyone should try to avoid saying games aren't popular simply because they aren't fans of it. There are a lot of games that you've probably never heard of which are making a nice profit for themselves.
Second, its been getting easier to produce MMOs over the years. They aren't nearly as costly as they once were. Add to that the growing awareness and popularity of MMOs (thanks Blizzard...you suck), more people are playing them in general.
On average, an MMO needs about 200k subscirbers to be considered "successful". Successful meaning that the company is making money after the first year. Don't know if you've noticed, but 200k subs is easy these days. So, yes, companies will push out more and more garbage, and yes, it will make them plenty money.
The market is growing and becoming more accessible. This is good and bad.
Bad, because it means that developers will start cutting back on quality to produce more quantity. This is the case of any major market.
Good, because it means that what were once unsustainable, niche markets can now also flourish. So, if smaller companies can now afford to build MMOs, there will be the few gems out there that still blow our minds.
There are many individuals around the globe whose only job is to figure out trends. This information is then routed through many levels of analysis, and the results are considered by venture capitalism firms on where to invest. With that investment, they want to make more money on their money... they aren't in the business to lose money.
Games like Farmville don't generate revenue, as where they are hosted (Facebook) is free. Sure, they might be entitled to a small amount of the ad revenue generated by hits to the page they are on (at best), but they don't actually make any money themselves. Do you think 70 million people would PAY for the farmville experience? Some will, sure, if the price was right, but most would not.
This is what I mean. Just because you don't pay for Farmville, does not mean the masses don't. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't make money. Do some research.
Zynga makes about $100 million a year. (a good chunk of that is Farmville micro-transactions)
While the most aggressive reports we've seen so far peg Zynga's revenue around $150 million, our banker says he understands the number is closer to $250 million, with huge 60% EBITDA margins.
Originally posted by Robokapp When the market saturates fully, it will start to balance towards the "highest quality and quantity of entertainment per dollar"...
I hope youre right. Its just sad as the way it is.
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
No, most games are trash because vets use Beta TESTS as an e-peen badge instead of actually testing the game.
Quite possibly it could be a factor why it seems that most mmo's are released a bit early. They're only going to be bug free in relations to what bugs are found... and which ones are reported.
As an ex-tester, working apporximately 14 years in console testing 1st and 3rd party games for Saturn, Dreamcast, PlayStation 1 and 2, it's interesting to note that beta testers for pc who are basically anyone that signs up for it, are not really true testers. And when I mean "testing," I mean to state that yes, I got a paid salary, paid taxes, etc... It was a real job, and not like they do it on PC.
The problem with PC games is that they need to put more money on the QA aspect, and not just put the dollars into development only... they should hire an internal test crue of professional testers (I'm sure some do, but seems like most like to "hire" free labor beta sign-up gamers.)
Perhaps if PC game devs. follow closely the console model for QA they might have less patches, and a more professionally pollished product upon public release.
No, most games are trash because devs use Beta TESTS as a marketing tool instead of actually listening to feedback from vets testing the game.
Had to fix that for you, hope you do not mind...
...it is a reason that I stopped bothering trying to get into Betas. You would go through months or more of testing everything, letting the devs know what is broken and hokey - the beta shuts down so "they can resolve the issues before launch and polish the game off"...the game releases...
...and it is a major /wtfpalmface.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
No, most games are trash because vets use Beta TESTS as an e-peen badge instead of actually testing the game.
So a game being Awesome or Suck has nothing to do with game design and technical expertise, but is 100% reliant on whether vets actually test the game once it's in beta? That's a rather...unique theory.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Smith and Tinker is owned by Jordan Weisman. The guy behind Mechwarrior. So his success with nanovor is great for those battletech fans out there. It means he's on top of his game and ready to put out GOOD products if you catch my drift.
I don't catch your drift. I haven't played it, but Nanovor looks pretty lame to me. If he puts out something like Mechwarrior: Dark Age, Mage Knight, or Heroclix I might be interested.
No, most games are trash because vets use Beta TESTS as an e-peen badge instead of actually testing the game.
So a game being Awesome or Suck has nothing to do with game design and technical expertise, but is 100% reliant on whether vets actually test the game once it's in beta? That's a rather...unique theory.
Software QA can make a title suck, yes. Anything can be good by design and technical expertise, but if it's poorly executed, namely VERY BUGGY gaming experience, than yes some gamers would consider that "suck" and "not awesome". If it's just a few bugs, and the code is solid (I.e., stable, doesn't crash, very few to NO graphical glitches), then it's "awesomeness," design, and technical expertise will shine through.
Farmville...is not going for gamers. It's in an entirely different market on its own. Its numbers are of no concern to MMO players.
You could have said that about WoW, because it was NOT designed for original MMORPG players, it was designed for the casual, drop in for 10 minutes every few day player.
Hardly, considering WOW now and WOW 2004 are VERY different games. WOW was COMPLETELY aimed at MMO players because every MMO got wiped clean the month WOW released. Over the years it attracted non gamers, but in the begining, I barely met anyone who hadn't played EQ, DAOC, ect. It was designed for EVERYONE and it attracted everyone.
While the most aggressive reports we've seen so far peg Zynga's revenue around $150 million, our banker says he understands the number is closer to $250 million, with huge 60% EBITDA margins.
The company has 750 employees.
The majority of revenue tied to Farmville, doesn't actually come from Farmville. It comes from back door deals made with shady third party "marketing companies" and "information collection agencies" for Farmville to offer game items in return for users 'participating in surveys' for Zynga's "associates". These so called surveys often lead the user to malware infested sites, and/or ask for enough personal and sensitive information that could allow for identity theft.
Farmville, and consequently Zynga's, revenue is mostly made from dirty dealings. The legitimate revenue that the game does actually pull in would barely be enough to keep the company afloat, if even that.
The majority of revenue tied to Farmville, doesn't actually come from Farmville. It comes from back door deals made with shady third party "marketing companies" and "information collection agencies" for Farmville to offer game items in return for users 'participating in surveys' for Zynga's "associates". These so called surveys often lead the user to malware infested sites, and/or ask for enough personal and sensitive information that could allow for identity theft.
Farmville, and consequently Zynga's, revenue is mostly made from dirty dealings. The legitimate revenue that the game does actually pull in would barely be enough to keep the company afloat, if even that.
I've never seen a Zynga survey lead to any malware or attack site. For Farmville in particular they rarely offer a survey (maybe once every month) and whenever they do the surveys are usually ran by major companies like Bing. They do do a bit of product placement in their game on occassion, but it's nothing that ever effects the gameplay in any way (you don't have ads propping up all over the place when you place the game, the advertisements are placed more subtly, like for example they had a blueberry crop based off an organic food company). I'd personally guess that they make a larger portion of their money (the majority of it) from virtual currency sales rather than what the article states (which they also said was a guess).
The surveys I've seen didn't collect any personal data information. They just asked about various things related to their product and how you'd feel about those things. Never did they ask me anything personal like my address, name, etc. I haven't received any spam mail by playing Farmville (neither from snail mail or e-mail). Don't mislead people just because of what you THINK is going on. That's slander.
The majority of revenue tied to Farmville, doesn't actually come from Farmville. It comes from back door deals made with shady third party "marketing companies" and "information collection agencies" for Farmville to offer game items in return for users 'participating in surveys' for Zynga's "associates". These so called surveys often lead the user to malware infested sites, and/or ask for enough personal and sensitive information that could allow for identity theft.
Farmville, and consequently Zynga's, revenue is mostly made from dirty dealings. The legitimate revenue that the game does actually pull in would barely be enough to keep the company afloat, if even that.
I've never seen a Zynga survey lead to any malware or attack site. For Farmville in particular they rarely offer a survey (maybe once every month) and whenever they do the surveys are usually ran by major companies like Bing. They do do a bit of product placement in their game on occassion, but it's nothing that ever effects the gameplay in any way (you don't have ads propping up all over the place when you place the game, the advertisements are placed more subtly, like for example they had a blueberry crop based off an organic food company). I'd personally guess that they make a larger portion of their money (the majority of it) from virtual currency sales rather than what the article states (which they also said was a guess).
The surveys I've seen didn't collect any personal data information. They just asked about various things related to their product and how you'd feel about those things. Never did they ask me anything personal like my address, name, etc. I haven't received any spam mail by playing Farmville (neither from snail mail or e-mail). Don't mislead people just because of what you THINK is going on. That's slander.
Comments
You could have said that about WoW, because it was NOT designed for original MMORPG players, it was designed for the casual, drop in for 10 minutes every few day player.
keep calm and carry on.
if a dev company wants to give away/rish what they got in hand for something they may get let them do so because they lose what they got and still wont get the new stuff.
ppl forget the fact that who strike first strike 2 times and this is why we get WoW clones, if anyone want to make their game mainstream they will fail because the game was not made for main stream from the get go.
BestSigEver :P
I guess Blizzard fanbois must be pulling their hair out... finally the numbers argument came around and is biting them in the ass...
couldn't agree more. its all we've seen since....well...
What the OP said initially is probably the biggest true statement I ever read on theese forums.
Buy Neverwinter Nights 1 here! | Unofficial NWN1 homepage | NWN1 guild on X-Fire
Working as intended.
First of all, everyone should try to avoid saying games aren't popular simply because they aren't fans of it. There are a lot of games that you've probably never heard of which are making a nice profit for themselves.
Second, its been getting easier to produce MMOs over the years. They aren't nearly as costly as they once were. Add to that the growing awareness and popularity of MMOs (thanks Blizzard...you suck), more people are playing them in general.
On average, an MMO needs about 200k subscirbers to be considered "successful". Successful meaning that the company is making money after the first year. Don't know if you've noticed, but 200k subs is easy these days. So, yes, companies will push out more and more garbage, and yes, it will make them plenty money.
The market is growing and becoming more accessible. This is good and bad.
Bad, because it means that developers will start cutting back on quality to produce more quantity. This is the case of any major market.
Good, because it means that what were once unsustainable, niche markets can now also flourish. So, if smaller companies can now afford to build MMOs, there will be the few gems out there that still blow our minds.
Facebook MMO is the beginning. When SoE launches console MMO in a few months, we will have the most dumbed down MMO.
Didn't SoE already do that a number of years ago with Everquest Online Adventures or some crap like that?
yes
FFXI did that years ago. It was... ugly.
Hey Chicken little, the sky is not falling.
There are many individuals around the globe whose only job is to figure out trends. This information is then routed through many levels of analysis, and the results are considered by venture capitalism firms on where to invest. With that investment, they want to make more money on their money... they aren't in the business to lose money.
Games like Farmville don't generate revenue, as where they are hosted (Facebook) is free. Sure, they might be entitled to a small amount of the ad revenue generated by hits to the page they are on (at best), but they don't actually make any money themselves. Do you think 70 million people would PAY for the farmville experience? Some will, sure, if the price was right, but most would not.
This is what I mean. Just because you don't pay for Farmville, does not mean the masses don't. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't make money. Do some research.
Zynga makes about $100 million a year. (a good chunk of that is Farmville micro-transactions)
http://www.businessinsider.com/zygna-revenues-are-closer-to-250-million-says-banker-2009-10
While the most aggressive reports we've seen so far peg Zynga's revenue around $150 million, our banker says he understands the number is closer to $250 million, with huge 60% EBITDA margins.
The company has 750 employees.
I hope youre right. Its just sad as the way it is.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
No, most games are trash because vets use Beta TESTS as an e-peen badge instead of actually testing the game.
Quite possibly it could be a factor why it seems that most mmo's are released a bit early. They're only going to be bug free in relations to what bugs are found... and which ones are reported.
As an ex-tester, working apporximately 14 years in console testing 1st and 3rd party games for Saturn, Dreamcast, PlayStation 1 and 2, it's interesting to note that beta testers for pc who are basically anyone that signs up for it, are not really true testers. And when I mean "testing," I mean to state that yes, I got a paid salary, paid taxes, etc... It was a real job, and not like they do it on PC.
The problem with PC games is that they need to put more money on the QA aspect, and not just put the dollars into development only... they should hire an internal test crue of professional testers (I'm sure some do, but seems like most like to "hire" free labor beta sign-up gamers.)
Perhaps if PC game devs. follow closely the console model for QA they might have less patches, and a more professionally pollished product upon public release.
my 2 cents.
Had to fix that for you, hope you do not mind...
...it is a reason that I stopped bothering trying to get into Betas. You would go through months or more of testing everything, letting the devs know what is broken and hokey - the beta shuts down so "they can resolve the issues before launch and polish the game off"...the game releases...
...and it is a major /wtfpalmface.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
So a game being Awesome or Suck has nothing to do with game design and technical expertise, but is 100% reliant on whether vets actually test the game once it's in beta? That's a rather...unique theory.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't catch your drift. I haven't played it, but Nanovor looks pretty lame to me. If he puts out something like Mechwarrior: Dark Age, Mage Knight, or Heroclix I might be interested.
Software QA can make a title suck, yes. Anything can be good by design and technical expertise, but if it's poorly executed, namely VERY BUGGY gaming experience, than yes some gamers would consider that "suck" and "not awesome". If it's just a few bugs, and the code is solid (I.e., stable, doesn't crash, very few to NO graphical glitches), then it's "awesomeness," design, and technical expertise will shine through.
Seems logical to me...
my 2 cents.
Hardly, considering WOW now and WOW 2004 are VERY different games. WOW was COMPLETELY aimed at MMO players because every MMO got wiped clean the month WOW released. Over the years it attracted non gamers, but in the begining, I barely met anyone who hadn't played EQ, DAOC, ect. It was designed for EVERYONE and it attracted everyone.
The majority of revenue tied to Farmville, doesn't actually come from Farmville. It comes from back door deals made with shady third party "marketing companies" and "information collection agencies" for Farmville to offer game items in return for users 'participating in surveys' for Zynga's "associates". These so called surveys often lead the user to malware infested sites, and/or ask for enough personal and sensitive information that could allow for identity theft.
Farmville, and consequently Zynga's, revenue is mostly made from dirty dealings. The legitimate revenue that the game does actually pull in would barely be enough to keep the company afloat, if even that.
I've never seen a Zynga survey lead to any malware or attack site. For Farmville in particular they rarely offer a survey (maybe once every month) and whenever they do the surveys are usually ran by major companies like Bing. They do do a bit of product placement in their game on occassion, but it's nothing that ever effects the gameplay in any way (you don't have ads propping up all over the place when you place the game, the advertisements are placed more subtly, like for example they had a blueberry crop based off an organic food company). I'd personally guess that they make a larger portion of their money (the majority of it) from virtual currency sales rather than what the article states (which they also said was a guess).
The surveys I've seen didn't collect any personal data information. They just asked about various things related to their product and how you'd feel about those things. Never did they ask me anything personal like my address, name, etc. I haven't received any spam mail by playing Farmville (neither from snail mail or e-mail). Don't mislead people just because of what you THINK is going on. That's slander.
http://techcrunch.com/2009/10/31/scamville-the-social-gaming-ecosystem-of-hell/
This was referenced in one of Scott Jennings' articles, on this site:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4097/Scott-Jennings-Farmville-Killed-Gaming-VWorlds-And-Your-Dog.html