It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
Guess i need to explain this one again as i have many times before:
Cheat - To violate rules deliberately, as in a game
See, thing is YOU do not make the rules of these games, the devs do. When it comes to a particular MMO, the devs are our god, our government, our judicial system, etc and they make and enforce the rules, not you. If you want to impose rules on yourself, go right ahead, but do not try to impose your made up rules on others. If the rules of the game say it is ok to spend $ for something in game, then it is no longer cheating. You may not like it, but it's the truth. As for respecting the game and the effort of the players... have you ever even played an F2P game before? Do you not realize that the majority of people spending the highest amount of money ar ethe most dedicated and hardcore players who are not only putting in way more time and effort into the game, but also more money. Should they not receive comparable rewards/advantages? Wouldnt not giving advantages to those players over those who put in little time and no money be an insult to those people's efforts?
As for the devs "stealing" money.... Steal - To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
Do you just whip out your credit card and punch in your info as a reflex to every single ad you see on the internet? Did you send in your CC info to the devs and start seeing a bunch of mysterious charges that you were unaware of and did not give permission for? No? Then what's being "stolen"?
Like i tell everyone, learn some self control. Learn to analyze things and make rational decisions wether or not something is worth spending $ on. You feel that special item is worth $10 and have the extra money to spend? Go right ahead, and be happy with the informed purchase you made of your own free will. Don't feel something is worth the $10 but you buy it anyway, and then bitch bitch bitch about how they "stole" your money... sounds more like someone needs to get a grip on reality than any form of deceipt or stealing.
The majority of us are intelligent enough to make these rational decisions wether or not we should spend any money and wether or not what we are buying is worth it. If you and others are not capable of such things, and you actually need someone to hold your hand and tell you "you should only be spending X amount per month", then thats a personal problem, not the problem of the devs.
I understand I don't make the rules, and if the devs allow it then by definination you are correct. The question I ask then is if you decriminialize something is it still wrong? If the government made drugs or murder legal I wouldn't partake because it feels wrong. To pay extra so I don't have to work/play or to pay extra to win in pvp feels wrong to me even if it is allowed by the devs.
As far as stealing, you are correct we are not being stolen from if we signed up and agreed to the charges. Stealing is an incorrect word to have used, I should have said I am disappointed there are some in the industry that are following a trend toward micro transactions that can make players feel they have to pay more to remain competitive.
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes * He needs more bullet points though
It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
Guess i need to explain this one again as i have many times before:
Cheat - To violate rules deliberately, as in a game
See, thing is YOU do not make the rules of these games, the devs do. When it comes to a particular MMO, the devs are our god, our government, our judicial system, etc and they make and enforce the rules, not you. If you want to impose rules on yourself, go right ahead, but do not try to impose your made up rules on others. If the rules of the game say it is ok to spend $ for something in game, then it is no longer cheating. You may not like it, but it's the truth. As for respecting the game and the effort of the players... have you ever even played an F2P game before? Do you not realize that the majority of people spending the highest amount of money ar ethe most dedicated and hardcore players who are not only putting in way more time and effort into the game, but also more money. Should they not receive comparable rewards/advantages? Wouldnt not giving advantages to those players over those who put in little time and no money be an insult to those people's efforts?
As for the devs "stealing" money.... Steal - To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
Do you just whip out your credit card and punch in your info as a reflex to every single ad you see on the internet? Did you send in your CC info to the devs and start seeing a bunch of mysterious charges that you were unaware of and did not give permission for? No? Then what's being "stolen"?
Like i tell everyone, learn some self control. Learn to analyze things and make rational decisions wether or not something is worth spending $ on. You feel that special item is worth $10 and have the extra money to spend? Go right ahead, and be happy with the informed purchase you made of your own free will. Don't feel something is worth the $10 but you buy it anyway, and then bitch bitch bitch about how they "stole" your money... sounds more like someone needs to get a grip on reality than any form of deceipt or stealing.
The majority of us are intelligent enough to make these rational decisions wether or not we should spend any money and wether or not what we are buying is worth it. If you and others are not capable of such things, and you actually need someone to hold your hand and tell you "you should only be spending X amount per month", then thats a personal problem, not the problem of the devs.
I understand I don't make the rules, and if the devs allow it then by definination you are correct. The question I ask then is if you decriminialize something is it still wrong? If the government made drugs or murder legal I wouldn't partake because it feels wrong. To pay extra so I don't have to work/play or to pay extra to win in pvp feels wrong to me even if it is allowed by the devs.
As far as stealing, you are correct we are not being stolen from if we signed up and agreed to the charges. Stealing is an incorrect word to have used, I should have said I am disappointed there are some in the industry that are following a trend toward micro transactions that can make players feel they have to pay more to remain competitive.
TY for understanding the error of your ways :-P sorry for the rant. Its become kind of a habit when it comes to certain types of posts, like those similar to yours.
Anyway, when it comes to the decriminalizing of drugs, murder, etc... I understand your point of view, but at the same time, that is again your own set of rules / morals/beliefs, and not everyone (or every country/society) has those same beliefs (obviously or we wouldnt have drugs & murder to begin with). Not to mention more often than not such morals tend to stem not from a truly personal core belief of something being wrong, but more from said beliefs being pushed onto you by your parents/family, teachers, the government, and society in general. If they were to suddenly change the laws, then yes you would probably feel the way you say because you have had those beliefs instille din you by others, however if those laws had never existed in the first place and it had not become the norm that "killing is wrong", would you say the same? If we were more of a barbaric society in which killing, raping, drug usage etc was the norm and perfectly acceptable, many of us who claim to feel strongly against those things would probably become the complete opposite and would oppose any who tried to bring about laws stopping those things.
Keeping that in mind, it likely works pretty similar in the gaming industry. We are used to a certain standard/norm/rule of the subscription MMORPG, and with F2P models being something that breaks that norm it becoms controversial and everyone claims to hold a certain opinion as a hardcore and unchanging belief. But think if things had been the opposite way. What if F2P/RMT games had become the norm over a decade ago? What if games like EQ had used that model from the start, and we had all gotten used to it and accepted it as the norm and how MMORPGs are simply done. Then several years later,a few companies come along and say "instead of that, we're going to require you to pay a monthly subscription to even play our game at all". There would likely be the same backlash against the change from F2P to P2P as we have now with P2P to F2P, and i wouldnt be surprised if the same exact people who view F2P as inherently wrong were on the opposite side of the argument in that situation.
It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
No. F2P doesn't equal cheating. Cheating is a violation of the established rules. The Dev's establish the rules, thus anything within those defined rules are by definition not cheating. "Stealing"? Again, no. No one is forced to purchase things from the item shop (such as that silly looking My Little Pony mount in WoW). People do it because that is their choice. There is obviously a market for those mounts, or Blizzard wouldn't haver sold so many. F2P is simply a different business model. Those who do not like it, shouldn't play F2P games, its really that simple.
Do you ever get the feeling mmorpg.com has a vested intrest in the F2P market? Seems like every other story they put out here of late is about how great F2P is... while I have still yet to see a F2P game worth the price. (Ok, maybe DDO)
You just noticed?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
Guess i need to explain this one again as i have many times before:
Cheat - To violate rules deliberately, as in a game
See, thing is YOU do not make the rules of these games, the devs do. When it comes to a particular MMO, the devs are our god, our government, our judicial system, etc and they make and enforce the rules, not you. If you want to impose rules on yourself, go right ahead, but do not try to impose your made up rules on others. If the rules of the game say it is ok to spend $ for something in game, then it is no longer cheating. You may not like it, but it's the truth. As for respecting the game and the effort of the players... have you ever even played an F2P game before? Do you not realize that the majority of people spending the highest amount of money ar ethe most dedicated and hardcore players who are not only putting in way more time and effort into the game, but also more money. Should they not receive comparable rewards/advantages? Wouldnt not giving advantages to those players over those who put in little time and no money be an insult to those people's efforts?
As for the devs "stealing" money.... Steal - To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
Do you just whip out your credit card and punch in your info as a reflex to every single ad you see on the internet? Did you send in your CC info to the devs and start seeing a bunch of mysterious charges that you were unaware of and did not give permission for? No? Then what's being "stolen"?
Like i tell everyone, learn some self control. Learn to analyze things and make rational decisions wether or not something is worth spending $ on. You feel that special item is worth $10 and have the extra money to spend? Go right ahead, and be happy with the informed purchase you made of your own free will. Don't feel something is worth the $10 but you buy it anyway, and then bitch bitch bitch about how they "stole" your money... sounds more like someone needs to get a grip on reality than any form of deceipt or stealing.
The majority of us are intelligent enough to make these rational decisions wether or not we should spend any money and wether or not what we are buying is worth it. If you and others are not capable of such things, and you actually need someone to hold your hand and tell you "you should only be spending X amount per month", then thats a personal problem, not the problem of the devs.
I understand I don't make the rules, and if the devs allow it then by definination you are correct. The question I ask then is if you decriminialize something is it still wrong? If the government made drugs or murder legal I wouldn't partake because it feels wrong. To pay extra so I don't have to work/play or to pay extra to win in pvp feels wrong to me even if it is allowed by the devs.
As far as stealing, you are correct we are not being stolen from if we signed up and agreed to the charges. Stealing is an incorrect word to have used, I should have said I am disappointed there are some in the industry that are following a trend toward micro transactions that can make players feel they have to pay more to remain competitive.
TY for understanding the error of your ways :-P sorry for the rant. Its become kind of a habit when it comes to certain types of posts, like those similar to yours.
Anyway, when it comes to the decriminalizing of drugs, murder, etc... I understand your point of view, but at the same time, that is again your own set of rules / morals/beliefs, and not everyone (or every country/society) has those same beliefs (obviously or we wouldnt have drugs & murder to begin with). Not to mention more often than not such morals tend to stem not from a truly personal core belief of something being wrong, but more from said beliefs being pushed onto you by your parents/family, teachers, the government, and society in general. If they were to suddenly change the laws, then yes you would probably feel the way you say because you have had those beliefs instille din you by others, however if those laws had never existed in the first place and it had not become the norm that "killing is wrong", would you say the same? If we were more of a barbaric society in which killing, raping, drug usage etc was the norm and perfectly acceptable, many of us who claim to feel strongly against those things would probably become the complete opposite and would oppose any who tried to bring about laws stopping those things.
Keeping that in mind, it likely works pretty similar in the gaming industry. We are used to a certain standard/norm/rule of the subscription MMORPG, and with F2P models being something that breaks that norm it becoms controversial and everyone claims to hold a certain opinion as a hardcore and unchanging belief. But think if things had been the opposite way. What if F2P/RMT games had become the norm over a decade ago? What if games like EQ had used that model from the start, and we had all gotten used to it and accepted it as the norm and how MMORPGs are simply done. Then several years later,a few companies come along and say "instead of that, we're going to require you to pay a monthly subscription to even play our game at all". There would likely be the same backlash against the change from F2P to P2P as we have now with P2P to F2P, and i wouldnt be surprised if the same exact people who view F2P as inherently wrong were on the opposite side of the argument in that situation.
You're absolutely right; if it had been the other way around I would probably be on here arguing against it, that I don't want to pay for things I don't use. I would argue that sub fees cost too much to play more than one game at a time, and that it limits friends from playing who can't pay. Honestly after this discussion I don't care what the payment model is for PVE centric games or for games where cash shops are cosmetic. It is none of my business what other players do or what their morals are, plus it is always cool to have diversity.
The problems I have with P2P and I think I would have them regardless of upbringing is that your success is directly related to your opponent. PVP pits players who may have different morals, styles, or what ever against each other. I am a sore loser, I really hate losing, but I would rather lose to someone with superior skills, planning, or tactics than to someone who purchased xxx. Maybe I am a minority but I love PVP and it is usually the main reason I play. I would rather study my opponent and develop a mutual respect than know that PVP is unequal, I feel it cheapens the experience.
On a side note if we lived in a more barbaric society where everything was legal I still think I would have a problem with killing, lol Watching people die is never fun and causing people real pain hurts even if you try to justify it. Drugs of self damaging things I probably wouldn't have a problem with though 8)
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes * He needs more bullet points though
Honestly who cares. The Wall Street journal is a rag, and when it comes to its relevance to gaming it is an even bigger joke.
Investors are ruining gaming though, this is not news. They are determined to burst this bubble (video gaming, and MMO's in particular that is) just like they ruined the web bubble over a decade ago.
The "free to play" craze is no different from the thousands of dancing hamster websites and other similiarly useless websites that caused the .com bubble to burst so spectacularly.
It eventually recovered, as will video games, but likely not before all those on wall street have a turn at her in the gang rape of all that is artistic and halfway decent in this industry that is.... publicly traded game design houses.
I agree. Once the suits smell money you can figure on problems. You mention the dot com bubble. In the 80s investors made a run at the stamp collecting hobby and things are just now recovering. They bought up all the high end stuff, drove up the price and dumped it. Ruined the market. Now Gorden Gecko has discovered the amount of money that changes hands in the gaming industry. I think in perhaps 5 years, give or take, we will see the bottom fall out and perhaps something decent will rise from the ashes. In the meantime the "non gamers", as one above described them, can foot the bill.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
No. F2P doesn't equal cheating. Cheating is a violation of the established rules. The Dev's establish the rules, thus anything within those defined rules are by definition not cheating. "Stealing"? Again, no. No one is forced to purchase things from the item shop (such as that silly looking My Little Pony mount in WoW). People do it because that is their choice. There is obviously a market for those mounts, or Blizzard wouldn't haver sold so many. F2P is simply a different business model. Those who do not like it, shouldn't play F2P games, its really that simple.
You will have to excuse me I made an exaggerated statement to try and illustrate a personal feeling. By definition if the devs allow it than it is not cheating, and when we sign up and agree to purchase, it cannot be stealing. My question is though, just because it is allowed does it make it right? I could care less about PVE and cosmetics, but in PVP your success is directly related to your opponent. Is it fair to allow a player to pay to win even if the devs allow it? I feel if P2P effects PVP than it cheapens the experience for everyone involved, but then again I like strip clubs 8)
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes * He needs more bullet points though
Not that i care much about LOTRO (That game was way too boring and unpolished when i tried it while it was still sub-based, why would i want to play it with an item mall???)...
But screw F2P, screw WSJ (yeah, that's a REALY good source o gaming, right) and screw MMORPG.COM for spreading their propaganda.
F2P is a way to financially salvage a shitty game that would fail horibly (or is failing horibly) as sub based. No realy good and popular game would go that way, ever!
Holy shit how many F2P fanboys around who still tryed to excuse this most stupid movements in MMO history. There is no such a thing as free lunch! Somehow revenue must come. And even IF game don't introduce soon P2Win items (which they all do and that 90% brainless playerbase welcomes as the one and only way they can too obtain that ybah items and ybah skills and can pw0wn) or like TV forces ya to look casino-pr0n-washingpowder etc advs after every 10 min playtime.
And IF this is future and fate of MMOs, let it be - i quit and play with friends PnP tabletops, but never I give my money to greedy Co.-s. Go to hell, Turbine, SOE etc And fry there til eternity.....
DDO is now one of the most popular MMO games ever. Wake up, it's that way for strong and good reasons. Just check it out with some parties.
That is not exactly true. Compared to eastern F2P games it has nothing to put up. Only the gods know how many players games like Perfect world have.
It did really boost DDOs numbers and finally put it in competition with Guildwars but GW had a lot of more players a few years ago and I think it still aces which one that had most players online at a certain time.
Turbine did a great job converting DDO, no one can take that from them but I am not so sure that the tactics will work so well with LOTRO. Locking up more instances is one thing but I am not sure locking up quest chains will work, the asian F2P games don't do that, they live on the item shops instead.
Personally do I think that GW2 will win the battle between F2P and P2P. GW2 costs to buy and you can buy expansions and mini expansions in the shop but not items (or at least not items with stats, appearance items might be in).
DDO is not bad at all, but just because it did great converting to F2P doesn't mean that all games will do as well if they convert too. So far have the competition been pretty low, most F2P games still suck. It is possible that things will change but I still think GW2s in between together with a olid game is what will bring in the players next year.
But it is of course impossible to predict the future even if Wall street tried that for a long time.
My take is that if you like the F2P games you keep playing it. It is fun but to get to end content y you need to pay to play. When you get to end game content, if you have not spent real money to get items and armor you are in a disadvantage to others that have spent hard earned dollars. I have been playing Runes of Magic from the the beta (ROM is a great game) but now that I have a high lev mage it seems hard to advance without spending real money. To sum it up if you are dedicated to a game be prepared to pay to get to end game dungeons. Here is the rule,,,,,FREE TO LEVEL...PAY TO PLAY
Funny, everyone holds up DDO as some great, golden example that every F2A should aspire to. I tried it for a little while and thought it really was not a good game at all. Despite it being 'free', I'm not playing it. I doubt that LotRO becoming 'free' will attract me back to it either.
If a person doesn't like a game, repackaging it as F2A won't make that game any better for them, in fact it could stand to make it a lot worse with the addition of immersion-breaking things such as big gold coins above NPCs' heads or a big red button on your screen saying 'visit store now!'. The danger too is that repackaging a P2P as an F2A will drive off players who liked the game originally because of immersion breaking or finding obstacles put in their path as they try to evolve in their gameworld due to the nickle and diming of content, gear, etc.
By far the best value for money over the long term are P2P's with free trials. They're also the most transparent form of payment. I can't justify the F2A model to myself because it seems like it's designed to screw you over financially, especially if you're a hardcore player who likes achieving. F2A LotRO will end up costing a hardcore player a lot more than if he subscribes.
DDO is now one of the most popular MMO games ever.
Care to back that statement up? Yes it did have an amazing comeback, but from what? It was in the sh*tter before it went FTP.
A 400% gain from nothing is nothing.
Kate Paiz (Exec Prod. for lotro, formerly for DDO) states that since the changeover to their f2p/sub hybrid they have had 2 million NEW players join and that their revenue has increased 5-fold above DDO's highest point prior to the switch.
I liked the article. I felt it did a good job of tracing the causes and effects of the F2P market as it began and where it has lead. It didn't help me like the idea of it any more though lol I just hope companies like Blizzard & SOE retain their current subscription models. I don't have a problem with EQ2X yet because in theory, I see how it can help EQ2. But I'm going back to single player games if they both buckle and start opening up full item shops in MMOs.
I'm a big fan of DDO's hybrid model, but it was also designed specifically for DDO, which, like the pnp game, works pretty well with the base game being free to keep playing, but having modules you can buy. I tend to subscribe 1-3 months a year and spend the points granted by the sub to unlock a whatsit here or there that I'll play with repeatedly in the future.
I'm looking forward to LotRO going F2P, liked the game, just my group and I drifted away from it. Hope to see a few other decent to good games go with a hybrid or F2P in the coming years. I think it's a good idea for aging games, and also for games that are designed with that type of functionality in mind, just doesn't seem like that's much considered with some of them.
Seams like once again theres lots of reactionary comments about f2p . Each game will have a different free to play model some will be fair like DDO and some wont . Its pretty obvious now this is here to stay . I'm ok with it when its well implimented as with the hybrid model . I'll enjoy being able to try different mmos on a casual play basis .
F2P is nothing more than a way for devs to cash in more money. It does nothing to enhance game play for players (unless ofcourse the devs use the said money to invest more into the game, which I doubt very much).
The MMOG market is now in the hands of the pure capitalists which are constantly trying to find new ways to make more money and F2P is just a result of that.
DDO is now one of the most popular MMO games ever.
Care to back that statement up? Yes it did have an amazing comeback, but from what? It was in the sh*tter before it went FTP.
A 400% gain from nothing is nothing.
Kate Paiz (Exec Prod. for lotro, formerly for DDO) states that since the changeover to their f2p/sub hybrid they have had 2 million NEW players join and that their revenue has increased 5-fold above DDO's highest point prior to the switch.
His statement still stands. 400% gain from almost nothing is still almost nothing.
DDO was dead in the water and, for some reason, F2P jump started it. Those 2 million new players means NOTHING unless they actually play AND pay. If you look at XFire it has only a ranking of 59 which is quite low considering that you dont need to pay to play the game.
Here is my take on the F2P market. From a gamer's standpoint, it is a mixed bag of decent games and games I wouldn't come near with a two meter cattle prod.
I used to be a huge fan of subscriptions, keeping out the cheaters, spammers and bots. Now, I tend to be able to ignore them. I will still play subscription based games, FFXIV being one of the games I will be playing, but I tend to prefer games that are Buy 2 Play such as Guild Wars.
I really think that Buy2Play + Cash Shop (Cosmetic items only, nothing that can actually provide stat buffs) would be ideal. The up-front box costs will help keep alot of the spammers, cheaters, and bots from flooding the game. People would really have no reason to "quit" the game considering there is no monthly sub to worry about, and the sale of cosmetic items from the cash shop would provide a steady cash flow to help with content development and game management. The removal of monthly fees would most likely help with population retention also, which in itself will act as population retention. After all, who wants to play an empty game?
But the first thing that needs to be done is this: Make sure the game is FUN!
Ok I Never understood where ppl think Gold Farmers don't buy the game. When a MMO come's out these day u don't get Invite a Friend Codes inside like u use to. So They have to buy a 3-6 Boxes a Day for there Post. Of corse if u Had GM working in every Major City, every starting zone for the 1st month There cost would be Great. Of corse as long as u got Google and ppl with more Money then Gamer Skill u will have Gold Farmers Power Levelin ppl's toons. But I would still like to see GMs Shutting these ppl done after there 1st post in the said before zones. Sadly The Co. Make's BIG MONEY off Gold Farmers they get alot of Box sale's from them. Aion for one that would give Gold Farmers around 2 to 6 hr's of Posting. For all the ppl who think just banning anyone with the name zzzyyhbdhdj Would just make u lose the chance to use a real name because u would have them usin reg. names. As for F2P being the answer to Gold Farmers is True but why would I want to get rid of one Gold Farmer for another. NO GOLD FARMER MEANS NONE not the ppl who made it or a 3rd Party. P2P has great service because there selling a Product. What u get in a F2P is spending more money for Less. F2P is Broken more then up and with no Power to ask for Service because u are not a Sub. U might have Paid 45 dollars that month for Bag's,Bank slot's, and quests but that don't give u to no rights to next month or the next day for that.
It’s real simple, if you respect your game and the effort players put into it, F2P is the same as cheating. If the industry is all about stealing as much money from players for shiny stuff, we will be better off quitting their games and taking our escapism to the strip club 8)
No. F2P doesn't equal cheating. Cheating is a violation of the established rules. The Dev's establish the rules, thus anything within those defined rules are by definition not cheating. "Stealing"? Again, no. No one is forced to purchase things from the item shop (such as that silly looking My Little Pony mount in WoW). People do it because that is their choice. There is obviously a market for those mounts, or Blizzard wouldn't haver sold so many. F2P is simply a different business model. Those who do not like it, shouldn't play F2P games, its really that simple.
You will have to excuse me I made an exaggerated statement to try and illustrate a personal feeling. By definition if the devs allow it than it is not cheating, and when we sign up and agree to purchase, it cannot be stealing. My question is though, just because it is allowed does it make it right? I could care less about PVE and cosmetics, but in PVP your success is directly related to your opponent. Is it fair to allow a player to pay to win even if the devs allow it? I feel if P2P effects PVP than it cheapens the experience for everyone involved, but then again I like strip clubs 8)
I Agree 1,000,000% it is Cheating. Just because it is legel to beat your wife in some Country or to marry a 10 YO does it make it Right. No A 40 YO shouldn't marry a 10 YO,No one should they are to young to understand life yet. So because it is allowed is it Cool! No it is still Wrong in F2P MMO's with the P2W set-up it is the Rich win and the Middle Class loses. I know that it is this way in most Real Life thing also,Like Taxes but our MMO fun shouldn't be this way. Then u got ppl like STO who tried making a MMO that was Sub and plus u had to pay xtra to get ship's, Race's and the list goes on. Needless to say they want from have a mill+ sub's to around 100 Thousand die hard ST Fanboz.
F2P is nothing more than a way for devs to cash in more money. It does nothing to enhance game play for players (unless ofcourse the devs use the said money to invest more into the game, which I doubt very much).
The MMOG market is now in the hands of the pure capitalists which are constantly trying to find new ways to make more money and F2P is just a result of that.
Commercial MMO's have always been about making money. It takes YEARS and millions upon millions (of other peoples) money to create the major titles. Most of these investor types do not really care about games, what they are interested in is ROI(Return On Investment). Since the rise of Blizzards World of Warcraft, the mystic phrase that makes investors eyes fill with dollar signs, and results in them throwing truck loads of money at you is; "Its just like World of Warcraft!".
F2P is just a different business model. Its main focus before now has been in Asia because of various factors. But many Dev's have seen how much money can be made in item shops. Look at WoW's silly looking My Little Pony mount as an example. Obviously there is a market for such, or Blizzard wouldn't have made so much money from it. How this eventually turns out is anyones guess at this point.
DDO is now one of the most popular MMO games ever.
Care to back that statement up? Yes it did have an amazing comeback, but from what? It was in the sh*tter before it went FTP.
A 400% gain from nothing is nothing.
Kate Paiz (Exec Prod. for lotro, formerly for DDO) states that since the changeover to their f2p/sub hybrid they have had 2 million NEW players join and that their revenue has increased 5-fold above DDO's highest point prior to the switch.
I am one of those 2 millions. Played it for a day then uninstalled the next day. Why doesn't Kate show us the numbers of those who actually play it. Creating an account in a f2p game costs only an email and 5 minutes. No wonder 2 million tried it in the beginning.
Although I agree that f2p works best for fail games. Imo if a game sucks it should die. Developers should learn how to make better games not finding ways to keep a fail product still alive.
In my opinion all this article does is back up most of the anti ftp arguements on this site and others and proves that ftp is nothing more then a money grab by the devs and that players who do use the item shops will be spending more per month then if they went with a standard sub game.
I like to use the old saying to sum it up "a fool and his money are soon parted"
Yes, very true. Most people don't see it because these same devs use that term "free" to play. Players really think the game is "free" but if the want to experience it ALL they find they must PAY. That is not free anything. Essentially, it is a free extended demo. Want to play the full game, you will end up paying more in the long run then if you had been paying a subscription.
I just love the irony in the fact that "Free to Play" actually makes the game owner MORE money than "Pay to Play"
Sadly for us gamers, F2P is the future.
With a traditional western P2P model, no company dares to charge more than $15 per month, that figure is now the established "premium" rate. Any sub increase would be massively resisted.
So how to generate more income ? Remove the $15 "hard cap" by dropping subs and moving entirely to micro-payments. By very carefully manipulating what players can buy and the pricing of those items, companies can boost their revenue massively. Too good to pass up, without a doubt.
Once the microtransaction-model is firmly established in the western market, the cash shop sales can become more aggressive. As long as the shift is gradual, players will slowly get used to it.
I expect that 90% of the premium MMO's will be F2P within 2 years at most.
Comments
I understand I don't make the rules, and if the devs allow it then by definination you are correct. The question I ask then is if you decriminialize something is it still wrong? If the government made drugs or murder legal I wouldn't partake because it feels wrong. To pay extra so I don't have to work/play or to pay extra to win in pvp feels wrong to me even if it is allowed by the devs.
As far as stealing, you are correct we are not being stolen from if we signed up and agreed to the charges. Stealing is an incorrect word to have used, I should have said I am disappointed there are some in the industry that are following a trend toward micro transactions that can make players feel they have to pay more to remain competitive.
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes
* He needs more bullet points though
TY for understanding the error of your ways :-P sorry for the rant. Its become kind of a habit when it comes to certain types of posts, like those similar to yours.
Anyway, when it comes to the decriminalizing of drugs, murder, etc... I understand your point of view, but at the same time, that is again your own set of rules / morals/beliefs, and not everyone (or every country/society) has those same beliefs (obviously or we wouldnt have drugs & murder to begin with). Not to mention more often than not such morals tend to stem not from a truly personal core belief of something being wrong, but more from said beliefs being pushed onto you by your parents/family, teachers, the government, and society in general. If they were to suddenly change the laws, then yes you would probably feel the way you say because you have had those beliefs instille din you by others, however if those laws had never existed in the first place and it had not become the norm that "killing is wrong", would you say the same? If we were more of a barbaric society in which killing, raping, drug usage etc was the norm and perfectly acceptable, many of us who claim to feel strongly against those things would probably become the complete opposite and would oppose any who tried to bring about laws stopping those things.
Keeping that in mind, it likely works pretty similar in the gaming industry. We are used to a certain standard/norm/rule of the subscription MMORPG, and with F2P models being something that breaks that norm it becoms controversial and everyone claims to hold a certain opinion as a hardcore and unchanging belief. But think if things had been the opposite way. What if F2P/RMT games had become the norm over a decade ago? What if games like EQ had used that model from the start, and we had all gotten used to it and accepted it as the norm and how MMORPGs are simply done. Then several years later,a few companies come along and say "instead of that, we're going to require you to pay a monthly subscription to even play our game at all". There would likely be the same backlash against the change from F2P to P2P as we have now with P2P to F2P, and i wouldnt be surprised if the same exact people who view F2P as inherently wrong were on the opposite side of the argument in that situation.
No. F2P doesn't equal cheating. Cheating is a violation of the established rules. The Dev's establish the rules, thus anything within those defined rules are by definition not cheating. "Stealing"? Again, no. No one is forced to purchase things from the item shop (such as that silly looking My Little Pony mount in WoW). People do it because that is their choice. There is obviously a market for those mounts, or Blizzard wouldn't haver sold so many. F2P is simply a different business model. Those who do not like it, shouldn't play F2P games, its really that simple.
You just noticed?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
You're absolutely right; if it had been the other way around I would probably be on here arguing against it, that I don't want to pay for things I don't use. I would argue that sub fees cost too much to play more than one game at a time, and that it limits friends from playing who can't pay. Honestly after this discussion I don't care what the payment model is for PVE centric games or for games where cash shops are cosmetic. It is none of my business what other players do or what their morals are, plus it is always cool to have diversity.
The problems I have with P2P and I think I would have them regardless of upbringing is that your success is directly related to your opponent. PVP pits players who may have different morals, styles, or what ever against each other. I am a sore loser, I really hate losing, but I would rather lose to someone with superior skills, planning, or tactics than to someone who purchased xxx. Maybe I am a minority but I love PVP and it is usually the main reason I play. I would rather study my opponent and develop a mutual respect than know that PVP is unequal, I feel it cheapens the experience.
On a side note if we lived in a more barbaric society where everything was legal I still think I would have a problem with killing, lol Watching people die is never fun and causing people real pain hurts even if you try to justify it. Drugs of self damaging things I probably wouldn't have a problem with though 8)
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes
* He needs more bullet points though
I agree. Once the suits smell money you can figure on problems. You mention the dot com bubble. In the 80s investors made a run at the stamp collecting hobby and things are just now recovering. They bought up all the high end stuff, drove up the price and dumped it. Ruined the market. Now Gorden Gecko has discovered the amount of money that changes hands in the gaming industry. I think in perhaps 5 years, give or take, we will see the bottom fall out and perhaps something decent will rise from the ashes. In the meantime the "non gamers", as one above described them, can foot the bill.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
You will have to excuse me I made an exaggerated statement to try and illustrate a personal feeling. By definition if the devs allow it than it is not cheating, and when we sign up and agree to purchase, it cannot be stealing. My question is though, just because it is allowed does it make it right? I could care less about PVE and cosmetics, but in PVP your success is directly related to your opponent. Is it fair to allow a player to pay to win even if the devs allow it? I feel if P2P effects PVP than it cheapens the experience for everyone involved, but then again I like strip clubs 8)
* I read most of what Jon Wood writes
* He needs more bullet points though
Not that i care much about LOTRO (That game was way too boring and unpolished when i tried it while it was still sub-based, why would i want to play it with an item mall???)...
But screw F2P, screw WSJ (yeah, that's a REALY good source o gaming, right) and screw MMORPG.COM for spreading their propaganda.
F2P is a way to financially salvage a shitty game that would fail horibly (or is failing horibly) as sub based. No realy good and popular game would go that way, ever!
F2P is a scam.
I will NEVER support or play a MMO with this format.
Take your pro F2P propaganda and shove it.
Holy shit how many F2P fanboys around who still tryed to excuse this most stupid movements in MMO history. There is no such a thing as free lunch! Somehow revenue must come. And even IF game don't introduce soon P2Win items (which they all do and that 90% brainless playerbase welcomes as the one and only way they can too obtain that ybah items and ybah skills and can pw0wn) or like TV forces ya to look casino-pr0n-washingpowder etc advs after every 10 min playtime.
And IF this is future and fate of MMOs, let it be - i quit and play with friends PnP tabletops, but never I give my money to greedy Co.-s. Go to hell, Turbine, SOE etc
And fry there til eternity.....
That is not exactly true. Compared to eastern F2P games it has nothing to put up. Only the gods know how many players games like Perfect world have.
It did really boost DDOs numbers and finally put it in competition with Guildwars but GW had a lot of more players a few years ago and I think it still aces which one that had most players online at a certain time.
Turbine did a great job converting DDO, no one can take that from them but I am not so sure that the tactics will work so well with LOTRO. Locking up more instances is one thing but I am not sure locking up quest chains will work, the asian F2P games don't do that, they live on the item shops instead.
Personally do I think that GW2 will win the battle between F2P and P2P. GW2 costs to buy and you can buy expansions and mini expansions in the shop but not items (or at least not items with stats, appearance items might be in).
DDO is not bad at all, but just because it did great converting to F2P doesn't mean that all games will do as well if they convert too. So far have the competition been pretty low, most F2P games still suck. It is possible that things will change but I still think GW2s in between together with a olid game is what will bring in the players next year.
But it is of course impossible to predict the future even if Wall street tried that for a long time.
My take is that if you like the F2P games you keep playing it. It is fun but to get to end content y you need to pay to play. When you get to end game content, if you have not spent real money to get items and armor you are in a disadvantage to others that have spent hard earned dollars. I have been playing Runes of Magic from the the beta (ROM is a great game) but now that I have a high lev mage it seems hard to advance without spending real money. To sum it up if you are dedicated to a game be prepared to pay to get to end game dungeons. Here is the rule,,,,,FREE TO LEVEL...PAY TO PLAY
Funny, everyone holds up DDO as some great, golden example that every F2A should aspire to. I tried it for a little while and thought it really was not a good game at all. Despite it being 'free', I'm not playing it. I doubt that LotRO becoming 'free' will attract me back to it either.
If a person doesn't like a game, repackaging it as F2A won't make that game any better for them, in fact it could stand to make it a lot worse with the addition of immersion-breaking things such as big gold coins above NPCs' heads or a big red button on your screen saying 'visit store now!'. The danger too is that repackaging a P2P as an F2A will drive off players who liked the game originally because of immersion breaking or finding obstacles put in their path as they try to evolve in their gameworld due to the nickle and diming of content, gear, etc.
By far the best value for money over the long term are P2P's with free trials. They're also the most transparent form of payment. I can't justify the F2A model to myself because it seems like it's designed to screw you over financially, especially if you're a hardcore player who likes achieving. F2A LotRO will end up costing a hardcore player a lot more than if he subscribes.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Kate Paiz (Exec Prod. for lotro, formerly for DDO) states that since the changeover to their f2p/sub hybrid they have had 2 million NEW players join and that their revenue has increased 5-fold above DDO's highest point prior to the switch.
I liked the article. I felt it did a good job of tracing the causes and effects of the F2P market as it began and where it has lead. It didn't help me like the idea of it any more though lol I just hope companies like Blizzard & SOE retain their current subscription models. I don't have a problem with EQ2X yet because in theory, I see how it can help EQ2. But I'm going back to single player games if they both buckle and start opening up full item shops in MMOs.
I'm a big fan of DDO's hybrid model, but it was also designed specifically for DDO, which, like the pnp game, works pretty well with the base game being free to keep playing, but having modules you can buy. I tend to subscribe 1-3 months a year and spend the points granted by the sub to unlock a whatsit here or there that I'll play with repeatedly in the future.
I'm looking forward to LotRO going F2P, liked the game, just my group and I drifted away from it. Hope to see a few other decent to good games go with a hybrid or F2P in the coming years. I think it's a good idea for aging games, and also for games that are designed with that type of functionality in mind, just doesn't seem like that's much considered with some of them.
Seams like once again theres lots of reactionary comments about f2p . Each game will have a different free to play model some will be fair like DDO and some wont . Its pretty obvious now this is here to stay . I'm ok with it when its well implimented as with the hybrid model . I'll enjoy being able to try different mmos on a casual play basis .
F2P is nothing more than a way for devs to cash in more money. It does nothing to enhance game play for players (unless ofcourse the devs use the said money to invest more into the game, which I doubt very much).
The MMOG market is now in the hands of the pure capitalists which are constantly trying to find new ways to make more money and F2P is just a result of that.
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His statement still stands. 400% gain from almost nothing is still almost nothing.
DDO was dead in the water and, for some reason, F2P jump started it. Those 2 million new players means NOTHING unless they actually play AND pay. If you look at XFire it has only a ranking of 59 which is quite low considering that you dont need to pay to play the game.
My gaming blog
Ok I Never understood where ppl think Gold Farmers don't buy the game. When a MMO come's out these day u don't get Invite a Friend Codes inside like u use to. So They have to buy a 3-6 Boxes a Day for there Post. Of corse if u Had GM working in every Major City, every starting zone for the 1st month There cost would be Great. Of corse as long as u got Google and ppl with more Money then Gamer Skill u will have Gold Farmers Power Levelin ppl's toons. But I would still like to see GMs Shutting these ppl done after there 1st post in the said before zones. Sadly The Co. Make's BIG MONEY off Gold Farmers they get alot of Box sale's from them. Aion for one that would give Gold Farmers around 2 to 6 hr's of Posting. For all the ppl who think just banning anyone with the name zzzyyhbdhdj Would just make u lose the chance to use a real name because u would have them usin reg. names. As for F2P being the answer to Gold Farmers is True but why would I want to get rid of one Gold Farmer for another. NO GOLD FARMER MEANS NONE not the ppl who made it or a 3rd Party. P2P has great service because there selling a Product. What u get in a F2P is spending more money for Less. F2P is Broken more then up and with no Power to ask for Service because u are not a Sub. U might have Paid 45 dollars that month for Bag's,Bank slot's, and quests but that don't give u to no rights to next month or the next day for that.
I Agree 1,000,000% it is Cheating. Just because it is legel to beat your wife in some Country or to marry a 10 YO does it make it Right. No A 40 YO shouldn't marry a 10 YO,No one should they are to young to understand life yet. So because it is allowed is it Cool! No it is still Wrong in F2P MMO's with the P2W set-up it is the Rich win and the Middle Class loses. I know that it is this way in most Real Life thing also,Like Taxes but our MMO fun shouldn't be this way. Then u got ppl like STO who tried making a MMO that was Sub and plus u had to pay xtra to get ship's, Race's and the list goes on. Needless to say they want from have a mill+ sub's to around 100 Thousand die hard ST Fanboz.
Commercial MMO's have always been about making money. It takes YEARS and millions upon millions (of other peoples) money to create the major titles. Most of these investor types do not really care about games, what they are interested in is ROI(Return On Investment). Since the rise of Blizzards World of Warcraft, the mystic phrase that makes investors eyes fill with dollar signs, and results in them throwing truck loads of money at you is; "Its just like World of Warcraft!".
F2P is just a different business model. Its main focus before now has been in Asia because of various factors. But many Dev's have seen how much money can be made in item shops. Look at WoW's silly looking My Little Pony mount as an example. Obviously there is a market for such, or Blizzard wouldn't have made so much money from it. How this eventually turns out is anyones guess at this point.
I am one of those 2 millions. Played it for a day then uninstalled the next day. Why doesn't Kate show us the numbers of those who actually play it. Creating an account in a f2p game costs only an email and 5 minutes. No wonder 2 million tried it in the beginning.
Although I agree that f2p works best for fail games. Imo if a game sucks it should die. Developers should learn how to make better games not finding ways to keep a fail product still alive.
Yes, very true. Most people don't see it because these same devs use that term "free" to play. Players really think the game is "free" but if the want to experience it ALL they find they must PAY. That is not free anything. Essentially, it is a free extended demo. Want to play the full game, you will end up paying more in the long run then if you had been paying a subscription.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I just love the irony in the fact that "Free to Play" actually makes the game owner MORE money than "Pay to Play"
Sadly for us gamers, F2P is the future.
With a traditional western P2P model, no company dares to charge more than $15 per month, that figure is now the established "premium" rate. Any sub increase would be massively resisted.
So how to generate more income ? Remove the $15 "hard cap" by dropping subs and moving entirely to micro-payments. By very carefully manipulating what players can buy and the pricing of those items, companies can boost their revenue massively. Too good to pass up, without a doubt.
Once the microtransaction-model is firmly established in the western market, the cash shop sales can become more aggressive. As long as the shift is gradual, players will slowly get used to it.
I expect that 90% of the premium MMO's will be F2P within 2 years at most.