... In MUDs I used to play where PvP was an occasional problem, you could report the character to the guards, sometimes getting a bounty placed on them for the PKers or making it difficult for them to enter a faction's town lest they get attacked by the guards. I don't see why that can't be done in modern games.
I agree, a Bounty on these players for other players to be rewarded with or some NPC Guards KOS, that's what these griefers really want after all, notoriety, with the penalties that go with it.
Some great posts, the sports metaphor is used a lot. I find there's broadly 2 basic levels you can assign in sports (team based mostly): Competitiveness: Some people love the adrenaline, the competition and beating aspect and winning mentality, the sharpening of skill and tactics in this enviroment that creates optimum performance feeddback and of course the people who enjoy being nasty in a socially acceptable arena is only one aspect of this it's important to stress that. Social: These people play sport for the engagement in an activity with others, for simple fun, for a slight increase in activity and often prefer grading with similar people so that skill levels match the challenge but it's not too serious and they meet like-minded people on the other side as their major reward for an entertaining "trying it for size" more than a serious "commitment".
So if it's akin to MMO's, as long as there is something for everyone, np. I personally enjoy a bit of both. But with an MMO the PvP if it's the right mix of social and competitive is the most fun for me: Best gameplay and best shared, social experience in a computer game.
Win or lose, II dislike PVP immensely. Nothing will change that. I don't like the playstyle. It's the same as playing sports to me. Which I also dislike. There is absolutely nothing that will change my dislike for PVP.
That said, if others want to PVP, go for it. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
I wonder if others of the anti-PVP camp share this trait?
No
I don't hate PVP but I hate game mechanics such as gear differential that make PVP so unbalanced.
I love sports but there everything is equal except for the skill level. That is how it should be in online games as well.
For the most part, I hate open world, non-consensual PvP. Most often there is no penalty against it, so players that enjoy ganking can sit in a low-level zone or a location where people are likely to be doing quests, killing them repeatedly until they log off in frustration. In MUDs I used to play where PvP was an occasional problem, you could report the character to the guards, sometimes getting a bounty placed on them for the PKers or making it difficult for them to enter a faction's town lest they get attacked by the guards. I don't see why that can't be done in modern games.
The problem there is that you might be considered the wrong demographic for that type of game.
For people who are more amenable to that type of game play, they either find a way around it, get help from friends or level very hard in order to compete. That was my experience. I would level all the more every time one of the more infamous pk'ers found me. Funny enough, he was eventually banned for finding a flaw in the game and not immediately reporting it. I ended up being leagues above him at the end but never got my "revenge" of sorts.
This is not to say that ffa pvp won't be frustrating at times but that type of game play comes more organically to some.
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We can clone animals... we can splice DNA... we can travel to outter space.. we can augment reality... BUT WE CAN'T MAKE A PVP GAME WORTHWHILE?!?! Blasphomey!
I like PvP but not in MMORPG's.... the reason is simple...most MMORPG's are REALLY, REALLY bad at implimenting quality PvP. The sole exception I've found so far is WW2 Online....which was ALOT of fun. However that plays alot more like a FPS then an MMORPG.
When I want quality PvP, I'll play either Turn Based Strategy games or FPS (Like the Battle-field series) those type of games know (mostly) how to get quality/fun PvP right... MMO's not so much.
Most MMO's don't involve very much strategy or skill in PvP. Since the fun in PvP (as well as competitive sports) all derives from excersizing ones strategy/skills... if these are mostly absent from game-play...what's the point?
Success with PvP in most MMORPG's I've played seems to revolve around the following factors...
1) Pure technical issues.... Connection Speed, Lag and most importantly ability of your machine to render the action at a reasonable pace. Although these factors do exist to some degree in FPS games.... for the most part they are minimized. At the very worst you may need to switch away from a server that has high latency. In general, if your computer has the reccomended spec's for a FPS game..... you want suffer any technical handicaps to PvP while playing it. This seems almost to never be true with MMORPG's. For some reason they just can't seem to overcome the technical hurdles that FPS games do. The players skill becomes completely irrelevet if the computer can only register one command input every 15 seconds and is rendering the action on the client 20 seconds behind what the server records.
2) Game-Play exploits.... Again this is an issue that MMORPG's seem not to be upto par on dealing with compared to FPS games. Spawn camping is one example. Basicaly...if your killed before your computer is able to even finnish loading/rendering your spawn area....play becomes pointless. FPS have some issues with spawn camping as well, but they usualy have at least some mechanisms for dealing with it....such as a choice of spawn points or safe spawn areas. Many MMO's cant even seem to impliment the simpliest of mechanisms to allow the player to choose an alternate spawn point if the one he is at is being camped.
3) Play Balance issues.... This is another area where MMO's seem to stack up very poorly against other types of PvP games (FPS and Turn Based Strategy). This is not to say that with the other types of games, the sides/units/scenerio's are perfectly balanced/matched.... they aren't....and sometimes they aren't on purpose.....and that's perfectly fine. However one thing that the other type of games do well is foils. Almost every unit/kit/strategy has a counter or foil that can be employed to be defeat it. Victory in those games is generaly based on recognizing the best strategy to pursue for the given situation and then recognizing what strategy your opposition is using and adapting your own play to couter it. So for example, if your opponent has alot of heavy armor in the particular scenerio you are playing... you get into thick cover/difficult terrain and start emphasizing AT weapons. Alot of MMORPG designers don't seem to spend much time thinking about this and it shows in thier designers. Many MMO's you have the "assured victory" scenerio....where a player discovers a particular formula to pursue and it pretty much assures them victory every single time... regardless of the situation and regardless of the strategy pursued.
4) Button Mashing Fest - Combat in many MMO's simply devolves into the number of buttons a player can mash in a specific time period. It's one thing if a game is based on reaction time alot.... I don't actualy mind that, even though I'm not as fast as I used to be.... but that's an entirely different mechanism then simply how many buttons you can physicaly push in a given time period.... simply put there is not alot of skill depth to that... it's boring and mindless... If I wanted to play a game based on that alone...my kids leapster has plenty of those I could play.
5) Time/Money spent in game - Alot of MMO combat simply devolves into how much time/money the player has devoted into that particular character....not in terms of learning to play with thier strength/weakness but simply the number of levels and items they have. It's one thing for Items/Levels to play some factor in an MMORPG PvP...but they are far too determinate in most (IMO)...... Simply put, what is the point of actualy playing out the combat under such a situation... we may as well simply ask the server to run a report on number of hours played/cash spent on a particular toon...and who-ever has the higher total is declared the winner.
6) Zerg fest - Most FPS/Strategy games make some attempt to balance thier scenerio's to account for or control the raw numbers on each side of the battle. Numbers should matter....but in many MMO's it simply comes down to a measure of how many bodies you have on your side versus those on the other team. It's ok to have unbalanced sides in some situations...can even be fun in some scenerio's....but pretty much most FPS/Strategy Games are setup with ways to deal with unbalanced sides and still make it fun for the side that is shorted. For instance, the side which has a numbers advantage may be forced to attack a fortified position across open terrain.... even though the raw numbers are unbalanced...the play situation is balanced to account for that. MMO's just don't seem to handle that very well.
A lot of people are simply afraid of failure and I get that, it's a consequence of the 'participation trophy' mentality I saw growing up in the United States. Most people simply do not want to fail because, in an environment where criticism is largely a personal attack instead a constructive commentary on method, folks simply don't want to be failures. Sad as it is some players simply are failures in a given area, they're just not good at it and for any of a number of reasons, and that is perfectly fine. Not everyone can be good at everything.
For the longest time I didn't like PvP and that was purely because of griefers. After all, there is a difference between getting your ass handed to you by a more skilled or higher-level player and getting tracked and killed constantly because your assailiant has e-peen issues. Once I was able to get into PvP, though, I really enjoyed it and it is a feature that really should be in most of these MMORPG worlds. It's an enriching experienec and a damn fine way to teach a bully a lesson that would otherwise land you in prison for teaching in real life.
Take a chance with PvP folks. You may be terrible about it but, hey, it'll make you appreciate the parts of the game that you are stellar at all the more...and at the very least it can be great stress relief!
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
A lot of people are simply afraid of failure and I get that, it's a consequence of the 'participation trophy' mentality I saw growing up in the United States. I saw some of this as well in Canada. I remember certain schools that went so far as to ban dodgeball from gym class. Most people simply do not want to fail because, in an environment where criticism is largely a personal attack instead a constructive commentary on method, folks simply don't want to be failures. Sad as it is some players simply are failures in a given area, they're just not good at it and for any of a number of reasons, and that is perfectly fine. Not everyone can be good at everything.
For the longest time I didn't like PvP and that was purely because of griefers. After all, there is a difference between getting your ass handed to you by a more skilled or higher-level player and getting tracked and killed constantly because your assailiant has e-peen issues. Once I was able to get into PvP, though, I really enjoyed it and it is a feature that really should be in most of these MMORPG worlds. It's an enriching experienec and a damn fine way to teach a bully a lesson that would otherwise land you in prison for teaching in real life.
Take a chance with PvP folks. You may be terrible about it but, hey, it'll make you appreciate the parts of the game that you are stellar at all the more...and at the very least it can be great stress relief! I couldn't agree more. Also many would find that they aren't as terrible as they first thought, especially after gaining some experience and actually learning from it.
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... In MUDs I used to play where PvP was an occasional problem, you could report the character to the guards, sometimes getting a bounty placed on them for the PKers or making it difficult for them to enter a faction's town lest they get attacked by the guards. I don't see why that can't be done in modern games.
I agree, a Bounty on these players for other players to be rewarded with or some NPC Guards KOS, that's what these griefers really want after all, notoriety, with the penalties that go with it.
Some great posts, the sports metaphor is used a lot. I find there's broadly 2 basic levels you can assign in sports (team based mostly): Competitiveness: Some people love the adrenaline, the competition and beating aspect and winning mentality, the sharpening of skill and tactics in this enviroment that creates optimum performance feeddback and of course the people who enjoy being nasty in a socially acceptable arena is only one aspect of this it's important to stress that. Social: These people play sport for the engagement in an activity with others, for simple fun, for a slight increase in activity and often prefer grading with similar people so that skill levels match the challenge but it's not too serious and they meet like-minded people on the other side as their major reward for an entertaining "trying it for size" more than a serious "commitment".
So if it's akin to MMO's, as long as there is something for everyone, np. I personally enjoy a bit of both. But with an MMO the PvP if it's the right mix of social and competitive is the most fun for me: Best gameplay and best shared, social experience in a computer game.
^^ This
If there was a "bounty" system or some other mechanism to get "revenge" against griefers I would be for more open PVP. I PVP for the social aspect more than the competitiveness. I dont mind getting my a$$ kicked a few times if I am with friends or with a group of people that are having fun. As repetitive as WOW BGs became I often ahd fun playing with the same players and working together as a team. Nullsec PVP in EVE is great, its expected. I dont mind getting my ship blown-up and losing all of the modules as long as I am with a group and we are having fun. Soemtimes we win, sometimes we lose. I dont care for highsec PVP where it has become a gankfest. The intentional greifers in highsec are the worst side of PVP. (As someone else already said; "shin-kickers and food tossers".) That being said I dont see anything wrong with Hulkaggedon. Its a known event, its advertised and action can be taken to avoid it. its akin to a mini-game and I applaud Helicity's ingenuity in creating a plyer-run event. That is another good side of PVP. When Hulkaggedon comes around I park my miner for a week and move on. No point in QQing.
I'm really not a fan of open PvP. It can be very irritating at times. That's not to say I'm not very good at it, but to me it seems very silly.
In order to prove to himself that he is a "badass", a player might see an apparently unsuspecting player a level or two below him, minding their own business, etc. The player then attacks his target, believing that, in victory, he will feel like a force to be reckoned with. A predator. As he is attacking, his target disables and kills him.
This has happened to me more times than I can count (with myself as the target). The experience is ridiculous and embarassing for the attacker, and a supreme annoyance to the target. The worst part of it is, the only way for the PvP'er to prevent something like this occurring is to "prey" on players far weaker and less powerful than himself: a practice that is petty and generally frowned upon. They may not give a damn, but it certainly gives open PvP a bad name.
Win or lose, II dislike PVP immensely. Nothing will change that. I don't like the playstyle. It's the same as playing sports to me. Which I also dislike. There is absolutely nothing that will change my dislike for PVP.
That said, if others want to PVP, go for it. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
And yet, if the playstyle were changed, would that make a difference?
For a long time, my only problem with mmo-style pvp (and *most* mmo pvp systems are built along very similar lines) has been the inherent imbalance built into a game system that says that player "A" is more experienced than player "B" and therefore automatically more powerful; simply because he's played longer.
Personally, I much prefer a system that rewards experience with more options, but not necessarily more powerful, or automatic methods to kill someone at a lower level. Something like this:
/start hypothetical scenario...
Player "A" is a soldier, he has two weapons, a backpack, and a unique, class-based ability.
Player "B" is an advanced player, let's call him a General. He has all of the same things that player "A" has, plus his advanced level has granted him adittional abilities such as: He can command NPC troops that include special forces, conventional units, cavalry, indirect fire, or more... all things that he can use to bring about the demise of player "A".
Yet he's still a person, and one bullet or arrow shot from the player "A" noob to the skull should cause his death just as quickly as anything else. If player "A" is smart enough to infiltrate close enough, then good for him. Player "B" should fear what could happen if a single soldier breaks through his far more advanced defenses. -- Yet he can choose from many available options to affect an entire battlefield.
Unfortunately, in most mmo's out there, the soldier is not any threat at all to the advanced player. The only exception that I can think of would be PlanetSide, where attaining higher rank simply meant unlocking more weapons or vehicles, but the higher level character can be brought down by a noob sniper who gets a good shot in.
I guess, ultimately, I'd like to see morte realism in my sci/fi-fantasy escape from reality.
I'm really not a fan of open PvP. It can be very irritating at times. That's not to say I'm not very good at it, but to me it seems very silly.
In order to prove to himself that he is a "badass", a player might see an apparently unsuspecting player a level or two below him, minding their own business, etc. The player then attacks his target, believing that, in victory, he will feel like a force to be reckoned with. A predator. As he is attacking, his target disables and kills him.
This has happened to me more times than I can count (with myself as the target). The experience is ridiculous and embarassing for the attacker, and a supreme annoyance to the target. The worst part of it is, the only way for the PvP'er to prevent something like this occurring is to "prey" on players far weaker and less powerful than himself: a practice that is petty and generally frowned upon. They may not give a damn, but it certainly gives open PvP a bad name.
In Everquest, the FFA PVP server only allowed you to attack players 4 levels above or below you. The team servers were 8 levels. Healers could still heal and buff anyone though (excpet on the team servers probably). There was still mindless ganking, but it was a lot more "fair" than WoW's PvP where you are subject to ganking at any level if you are in the "wrong" zone.
And there is one very good way to avoid the kind of scenarios you speak of: Don't roll on a PvP server.
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The only game I ever really enjoyed PVP was DAOC, both on the normal servers and even the FFA server.
Reason being is that on the normal servers, there was clear cut areas to fight when I wanted to, and clear cut objectives and rewards (both personal and faction wide) and I really enjoyed that game like no other since. (EVE's not bad, but not quite as good as DAOC IMO)
Even on DAOC's FFA servers we changed the gameplay around a bit, unlike normal servers that traded keeps regularly, our clan grabbed a specific keep and we defended it against all comers (and assaulted the keeps of our opponents). Different objectives, but still equally fun.
I still play largely on PVP servers these days, mostly because it adds an extra edge doing the frequently boring PVE trying to avoid the gank.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I'm a casual gamer (maybe up to a few hours a day) and for me I like all aspects of mmorpg's (adventuring, exploring, gathering, crafting, PvE and PvP). The PvP encounter is fun as it allows me to test my play style against another person and not an NPC that has a standard attack/defense profile, PvP brings some randomness to the fight. That beging said the current way most games implment PVP its all about how fast you can lvl up and gear, gear, gear, skill doesn't come into it at all nor is the playing field lvl/balanced at all which has killed PvP for me.
EVE was mentioned in the article and I have to say that the person from my viewpoint was very lucky. I played EVE for 3 months I canceled my sub due to the out of control ganking. I played a miner/trader as i perfer to learn the game mechanices and layout before going in for a combat class. I'd leave a station and head out, say for a mining trip and along comes a group of pirates to trash me, I had no chance to fight back plus the lvl difference between us huge. Move to a different area and there'd be a different group but same result (over and over and over).
Aion came out and I loved the game right from the start. It had quite a few problems from the start but I could live with them. Then I finially got my toon lvl'd so that I could get into the PvP area's and was looking forward to some PvP that ppl were all raging about. I knew going in that I'd get killed alot since my lvl 20 toon was a neb (low lvl) for the area but I was tired of PvE and the crafting system was just to expensive to lvl up in for a lower lvl toon. First time into the area I get killed within 10 min by a lvl 47 ranger (a one shot kill) and within an hour I had been killed over 20 times buy nothing less than a lvl 39 toon. The area I was in was for lvl 20-30 lvl toons and thats what I expected to see and fight against. On top of that if you want abyss gear (which you have to have) you need to go to the abyss and farm pve or pvp for abyss points but again how a low to mid lvl toon is expected to do this without other players that are 10-30 lvls higher ganking them is beyond me so again i've canceled my sub.
Throw in elite guilds and kill quota's with zone/area control and PvP becomes something only hardcore gamers have a chance at, ppl like me who are casual gamers don't stand a chance since getting killed 20-50 times an hour is not fun. For me the only kind of PvP thats left is maybe RvR (Warhamer has this i'm told) where a player can join an open team for some RvR with the lvl's of the combatants begin closer but again it comes down to gear instead of skill so hardcore gamers who spend long hours each day playing will win every time. So for now I'm not playing any pvp games, call me a carebear, sissy, looser ect I'm not gona support the developers who seem locked into this type of pvp game play.
PvP is just an annoyance in otherwise fun games. There may not be actual packs of griefers, but there are enough in every game with PVP to make the game unenjoyable. With limited playing time, I try to accomplish something in every session - be it 30 min, one hour or multiple hours. Getting repeatably ganked while harvesting [Ryzom] or running to an appropriate level dungeon [AC Darktide] or just fighting different MOBs [DAoC] wastes my time and essentially ruins the game for me. It was always repeatedly ganked, sometimes by the same individual[s] and sometimes not, but it was never just once so that I could "ha ha, good moves there /salute" and move on.
@The_Grump: The "participation trophy" was after my time. The issue that I have with pvp is that, in EvE for example, if you start the game and play for a few months and then go looking for some pvp: You lose. Period. You will kill no one unless you run to the starter system and suicide gank newbie ships. It's funny though, that guy at the beginning of the article who said he's played EvE for 4 years and only been attacked twice. Lol. Maybe he just hops in to update his skills, I got attacked within 1 jump of Jita 3 times last week. Meh, in a game where there is some possibility, even a small one, of success then pvp is ok. If you're a 2 month old character in EvE vs a 7 year old character in EvE? You lose. If you're a level 22 warrior in WoW running through Lakeshire and you get jumped by an 80 (and you will, believe you me ;-D)? You lose.
Let's be perfectly honest here, shall we? All the ardent supporters of PvP here are people who, by and large, win at pvp. If you deny it then make a WoW character on laughing skull server, level to 20 or so, run to the first contested zone you can find, and log in to the realm forums and demand some pvp. Spend the next 12 hours getting one-shot before you can even pop your hearthstone to escape. Rinse/repeat for a month or so. If, after that, you still come on here and tell me you love pvp I will believe you. Personally? I love PvP in some games. I love it in EvE when I find a 3 month old character flying an industrial on a courier mission through low sec. I have yet to find a three month old in null sec but someday.... I like it in WoW when I'm on the way to help a guildie in stv and I arrive right after his 30 gets attacked by a couple 50's and I cheerfully butcher them. I love PvP when I snipe some dude from cover in CoD:MW. Or when I find a sniper with very little situational awareness when I'm on my pyro, sneak up behind him and WHOOSH! Sniper Flambe'!
Getting killed isn't nearly as much fun as killing but as long as I do the killing a fair amount of the time I'm ok with it.
Tnhere onoly 1 thing i hate bout PVP and it is in every game ever seeen with PVP, gankers stupid ppl think it cool to kill u over and over again while they are 50 and u are lvl 2.If someones says oh that dont happen 9 times outta 10 they are ones doing it. I mean I have no prob with good ol fashion fight me against him if is somewhat fair fight, and say i just turned 50 i dont expect to win against someone been 50 for a yr and been out there, but for 50's sit there and kill lvl 2;s over and over same guy mind u and sit there and laughs at u like see am cool I can kill u, probable cant fight ppl his own lvl why he camps babie area's.Like Mortal online, game was made for 2 type ppl theives and gankers what fun is it to run round butt naked with nothing on even cause everytime u get something muight help from good smeritain here ur ganker or theif kills u and off he goes leaving u bear naked. I am a crafter by my account and if u cant last 2 min into a game forget it aint worth my time to waste let the theives and gankers have game will go elsewere to craft....
The only misconceptions about pvp in most of these games is that the developers think people will play fair, while most do there are enough that will take advantage of any edge to ruin it for the rest of us.
I don't know any f2p that even has a resemblance of fair pvp. Everyone is pay to win and not a cheap pay at that. Saw someone say that Warhammer has the best pvp, which is a real laugh to me. Best pvp I ever had was DAoC pre Atlantis. UO was not bad either before they borked it up with later expansions. Even AC had better pvp on Darktide than Warhammer. Too bad Mythic could not look back at their past to see what worked.
As far as I'm concerned, and this is just imho as always, an MMO without PVP it too much of a walk down a path in the forest. It's pretty, I enjoyed it but I never left the path. The only real, unscripted moments any game can throw at you has to revolve around other players. The chaos factor. Without the chaos, possibilities, whatever you want to call it, it's still enjoyable but not as much as it could have been. For me. When the day finally comes that someone launches a true triple A title, maybe not focused on PvP but allowing for the fact that players can do what they could if it were a real world, with definite consequences of those actions in place, I'll be happy man and I think many people will finally understand that there isn't a true challenge unless another player, prick or not, is behind it. At least in an MMO, FPS, etc. Don't get me wrong, love games like Bioshock but unless Bioware can pull that off in a multi-player world, we're stuck with each other as our best competition.
Played in some form: UO til tram, AC, EQ, AO, WW2O, PS, SB, CoH, AC2, Hor, LoTRO, DDO, AoC, Aion, CO, STO Playing: WoW (for gf), WAR Waiting For: SWTOR, FFXVI Hoping For: DCUO, Secret World, Earthrise -S- (UO Sonoma)
Win or lose, II dislike PVP immensely. Nothing will change that. I don't like the playstyle. It's the same as playing sports to me. Which I also dislike. There is absolutely nothing that will change my dislike for PVP.
That said, if others want to PVP, go for it. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
I'd have to agree with you! I never liked PvP, and I can easily take out people, but its just not fun to play PvP, and I never understood the fascination toward PvPing.
PvP in most games, suck bunches, theres no balance, and most of it is geared to certain classes, due to there obseen skill pool that excels in 1v1 combat! Thus they have the advantage or most players in the game. Of course there are other classes that may have a certain hidden skill that completely flops the game around and they can easily win now! Also often or not the PvP systems in games just aren't fully developed, and the engine is just bad thus creating a horrible PvP experience.
Also there are players out there that gear themselves with extrodinary armor thats is nearly impossible to catch up to! Why!? because they excelled in a certain area before everyone else, they have connections that others don't and once they become ontop they stay ontop, due to them being able to do things others can't. Usually Cash Shops in MMO's allow players to excel past others easily in game because its an instant upgrade usually that other players CANT afford. Thus is what throws off PvP battles, its not skill ever, but its always about numbers, and whom uses there oftenly "cheating" skills the best.
One thing I do hate, of which I've done, is moves that stun, Stun here stun there. Its not really a strategy, its just a broken PvP move thats irritating, the other player Cant defend themselves, or come up with a strategy to defeat you. I've beaten an elite player once with no armor using this tactic that they could not avoid. This is why I HATE PvP
MMORPG's are the worst game system to have PvP. There is no PvP system in an MMORPG that is any good at all - with the exception of Planetside and that is because it is an FPS type MMORPG/FPS. The rest...suck. If MMORPG's are going to have PvP then level the playing field and allow for player skill to be what decides who wins and who loses instead of arbitrary set of skills(games that are heavily skill based like DF are still full of fail) and the roll of dice.
Make an MMORPG that has combat like Mount and Blade or BF2 and then let's talk PvP.
[quote]Originally posted by uncus [b]Getting repeatably ganked while harvesting [Ryzom] or running to an appropriate level dungeon [AC Darktide] or just fighting different MOBs [DAoC] wastes my time and essentially ruins the game for me. It was always repeatedly ganked, sometimes by the same individual[s] and sometimes not, but it was never just once so that I could "ha ha, good moves there /salute" and move on. [/b][/quote]
It sounds likely to me that maybe in your harvesting scenarios the opponent was after the same resources as yourself and possibly perceived you as a threat to him/her or "his/her" resources. You also have to expect a PvP situation bordering any instance. Instances are areas of the game where groups of players (all of similar levels) will come together on a regular basis. This makes the area a "Hot Spot" for PvP. A PvP enthusiast prefers to stay within these "Hot Spots" in order to get the most PvP action. Being in a low population area is to the PvP enthusiast what wastes his/her time and essentially ruins the game for them.
Ganking is an entirely different conversation. Granted, some people will not engage in PvP Combat unless they are absolutely positive that they have the upper hand on their opponent. It's sad but it's very true. However, most people tend to run around with a group of friends knowing that at any time they could stumble upon a group of opposing enemies and realize the difficulties that could arise in fighting them alone. It is also slightly more fun to share these PvP experiences with friends. This seems all fine and dandy up until the point where that lower-level solo player of the opposing faction runs out onto the road in front of your party. Ideally, you just run past him and leave him be, hoping that he will notify his faction of your presence. Though commonly players will launch the attack expecting the player to whine about it or request assistance via his/her chat channels. In either scenario the goal here is to alert the opposing faction that you are a threat within their territory. You are attempting to create a "Hot Spot" of your own through this behavior. The deeper within their territory you get (which unfortunately also happens to be the usual "lowbie" or low-level areas) the more of a rush you get because you feel as if it took more of a challenge to get there or because you've managed to launch an attack on an area that you shouldn't have a chance in hell of getting to.
UO (Ultima Online) had implemented a Faction system where there were Faction Strongholds located outside of town and in otherwise desolate areas. These Strongholds were ideal PvP "Hot Spots" for any Faction member. This system also worked because the Faction Ruleset only applied on the Felucca (PvP) half of the shard (realm) allowing those that aren't interested in the conflicts to avoid it completely. In my opinion no other PvP system has ever succeeded as well as the UO systems. With Guild Wars, Factions, and the Chaos/Order system, you didn't even have to become a murderer in order to enjoy the competition. Toss in the fact that FFA PvP only existed on the Felucca side of the shard and you have the perfect system. One that rewarded those that were willing to face the additional risk and one that sheltered those unwilling to participate. Neither side wrong, nor punished, just different.
Originally posted by Ozmodan The only misconceptions about pvp in most of these games is that the developers think people will play fair, while most do there are enough that will take advantage of any edge to ruin it for the rest of us. I don't know any f2p that even has a resemblance of fair pvp. Everyone is pay to win and not a cheap pay at that. Saw someone say that Warhammer has the best pvp, which is a real laugh to me. Best pvp I ever had was DAoC pre Atlantis. UO was not bad either before they borked it up with later expansions. Even AC had better pvp on Darktide than Warhammer. Too bad Mythic could not look back at their past to see what worked.
I have to agree with that. Though I was too big of a UO fanatic at the time and never got to try DAOC. I really regret that
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Maybe I missed it but I don't see any misconceptions about PvP here. It's always about the gear and I don't believe anyone really thinks other wise. One would wish it was about skill but not one really believes that. More often then now unless it's structured it is a gankfest and these designers have to know that. They might not want to openly admit as it could be bad for business but they know full well what systems they designed. Those that have the most money to buy multiple accounts will have a clear advantage over everyone else. Those that don't have a life and play the game nonstop will have an advantage over everyone else.
What I would have liked for them to have done was address the difference between a PvPer and a Pker. It is the PKers that give PvP a negative reputation (not a misconception but highlight the problems that are actually there) and who simply want prey.
It would have been nice if Shadowbane, Ultima Online and the creation of Trammel, and Dark Age of Camelot's Frontier were talked about in terms of their positives and negatives. This didn't really seem like a discussion on the topic of PvP. More like PR speak.
Win or lose, II dislike PVP immensely. Nothing will change that. I don't like the playstyle. It's the same as playing sports to me. Which I also dislike. There is absolutely nothing that will change my dislike for PVP.
That said, if others want to PVP, go for it. Just don't force it on the rest of us.
I don't care for PvP at all either. It has nothing to do with me winning or losing in a PvP situation. I just don't like it, and i take no pleasure from actually winning. It's not for me. I am with you, don't force it on the rest of us. Just make the PvP situation clear and stop trying to cater to both crowds and make both unhappy with the system.
Oh I don't know how you say the word often and exceptional in the same breath and not scratch your head. If veterans OFTEN hunt lower levels in a certain area in AoC , then it is not an exceptional situation or scenaio.
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Originally posted by Effect Maybe I missed it but I don't see any misconceptions about PvP here. It's always about the gear and I don't believe anyone really thinks other wise. One would wish it was about skill but not one really believes that. More often then now unless it's structured it is a gankfest and these designers have to know that. They might not want to openly admit as it could be bad for business but they know full well what systems they designed. Those that have the most money to buy multiple accounts will have a clear advantage over everyone else. Those that don't have a life and play the game nonstop will have and advantage over everyone else. What I would have liked for them to have done was address the difference between a PvPer and a Pker. It is the PKers that give PvP a never reputation (not a misconception but highlight the problems that are actually there) and who simply want prey. It would have been nice if Shadowbane, Ultima Online and the creation of Trammel, and Dark Age of Camelot's Frontier were talked about in terms of their positives and negatives. This didn't really seem like a discussion on the topic of PvP. More like PR speak.
Agreed. There are many ways to create a successful PvP game but there are also many things that can destroy it. Item-based PvP is one of the worse afflictions. In a competition over who is the better fighter it just doesn't make sense to involve who has the better gear. I understand the entire carrot on a stick theory as far as PvE is concerned however it just doesn't make any sense to apply the same concept to PvP.
There are ways to have both. If the developers give all items a default DMG cap against other players for example. With a more Arena style of PvP players can be stripped of their items and forced to equip themselves with the gear offered in the arena before the match begins. The original gear would be traded back of course after the match. Certain spells or abilities should not be available in PvP combat and others should also have a DMG cap vs other players..
Also developers need to balance PvP on a 1v1 scale without using a Paper/Rock/Scissors system. Large scale PvP matters little when simple 1v1 combat is not up to par.
These are things that can contribute to a fair, albeit unrealistic, PvP Environment.
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Comments
I agree, a Bounty on these players for other players to be rewarded with or some NPC Guards KOS, that's what these griefers really want after all, notoriety, with the penalties that go with it.
Some great posts, the sports metaphor is used a lot. I find there's broadly 2 basic levels you can assign in sports (team based mostly): Competitiveness: Some people love the adrenaline, the competition and beating aspect and winning mentality, the sharpening of skill and tactics in this enviroment that creates optimum performance feeddback and of course the people who enjoy being nasty in a socially acceptable arena is only one aspect of this it's important to stress that. Social: These people play sport for the engagement in an activity with others, for simple fun, for a slight increase in activity and often prefer grading with similar people so that skill levels match the challenge but it's not too serious and they meet like-minded people on the other side as their major reward for an entertaining "trying it for size" more than a serious "commitment".
So if it's akin to MMO's, as long as there is something for everyone, np. I personally enjoy a bit of both. But with an MMO the PvP if it's the right mix of social and competitive is the most fun for me: Best gameplay and best shared, social experience in a computer game.
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No
I don't hate PVP but I hate game mechanics such as gear differential that make PVP so unbalanced.
I love sports but there everything is equal except for the skill level. That is how it should be in online games as well.
The problem there is that you might be considered the wrong demographic for that type of game.
For people who are more amenable to that type of game play, they either find a way around it, get help from friends or level very hard in order to compete. That was my experience. I would level all the more every time one of the more infamous pk'ers found me. Funny enough, he was eventually banned for finding a flaw in the game and not immediately reporting it. I ended up being leagues above him at the end but never got my "revenge" of sorts.
This is not to say that ffa pvp won't be frustrating at times but that type of game play comes more organically to some.
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Sure they have, Team Fortress 2....
I like PvP but not in MMORPG's.... the reason is simple...most MMORPG's are REALLY, REALLY bad at implimenting quality PvP. The sole exception I've found so far is WW2 Online....which was ALOT of fun. However that plays alot more like a FPS then an MMORPG.
When I want quality PvP, I'll play either Turn Based Strategy games or FPS (Like the Battle-field series) those type of games know (mostly) how to get quality/fun PvP right... MMO's not so much.
Most MMO's don't involve very much strategy or skill in PvP. Since the fun in PvP (as well as competitive sports) all derives from excersizing ones strategy/skills... if these are mostly absent from game-play...what's the point?
Success with PvP in most MMORPG's I've played seems to revolve around the following factors...
1) Pure technical issues.... Connection Speed, Lag and most importantly ability of your machine to render the action at a reasonable pace. Although these factors do exist to some degree in FPS games.... for the most part they are minimized. At the very worst you may need to switch away from a server that has high latency. In general, if your computer has the reccomended spec's for a FPS game..... you want suffer any technical handicaps to PvP while playing it. This seems almost to never be true with MMORPG's. For some reason they just can't seem to overcome the technical hurdles that FPS games do. The players skill becomes completely irrelevet if the computer can only register one command input every 15 seconds and is rendering the action on the client 20 seconds behind what the server records.
2) Game-Play exploits.... Again this is an issue that MMORPG's seem not to be upto par on dealing with compared to FPS games. Spawn camping is one example. Basicaly...if your killed before your computer is able to even finnish loading/rendering your spawn area....play becomes pointless. FPS have some issues with spawn camping as well, but they usualy have at least some mechanisms for dealing with it....such as a choice of spawn points or safe spawn areas. Many MMO's cant even seem to impliment the simpliest of mechanisms to allow the player to choose an alternate spawn point if the one he is at is being camped.
3) Play Balance issues.... This is another area where MMO's seem to stack up very poorly against other types of PvP games (FPS and Turn Based Strategy). This is not to say that with the other types of games, the sides/units/scenerio's are perfectly balanced/matched.... they aren't....and sometimes they aren't on purpose.....and that's perfectly fine. However one thing that the other type of games do well is foils. Almost every unit/kit/strategy has a counter or foil that can be employed to be defeat it. Victory in those games is generaly based on recognizing the best strategy to pursue for the given situation and then recognizing what strategy your opposition is using and adapting your own play to couter it. So for example, if your opponent has alot of heavy armor in the particular scenerio you are playing... you get into thick cover/difficult terrain and start emphasizing AT weapons. Alot of MMORPG designers don't seem to spend much time thinking about this and it shows in thier designers. Many MMO's you have the "assured victory" scenerio....where a player discovers a particular formula to pursue and it pretty much assures them victory every single time... regardless of the situation and regardless of the strategy pursued.
4) Button Mashing Fest - Combat in many MMO's simply devolves into the number of buttons a player can mash in a specific time period. It's one thing if a game is based on reaction time alot.... I don't actualy mind that, even though I'm not as fast as I used to be.... but that's an entirely different mechanism then simply how many buttons you can physicaly push in a given time period.... simply put there is not alot of skill depth to that... it's boring and mindless... If I wanted to play a game based on that alone...my kids leapster has plenty of those I could play.
5) Time/Money spent in game - Alot of MMO combat simply devolves into how much time/money the player has devoted into that particular character....not in terms of learning to play with thier strength/weakness but simply the number of levels and items they have. It's one thing for Items/Levels to play some factor in an MMORPG PvP...but they are far too determinate in most (IMO)...... Simply put, what is the point of actualy playing out the combat under such a situation... we may as well simply ask the server to run a report on number of hours played/cash spent on a particular toon...and who-ever has the higher total is declared the winner.
6) Zerg fest - Most FPS/Strategy games make some attempt to balance thier scenerio's to account for or control the raw numbers on each side of the battle. Numbers should matter....but in many MMO's it simply comes down to a measure of how many bodies you have on your side versus those on the other team. It's ok to have unbalanced sides in some situations...can even be fun in some scenerio's....but pretty much most FPS/Strategy Games are setup with ways to deal with unbalanced sides and still make it fun for the side that is shorted. For instance, the side which has a numbers advantage may be forced to attack a fortified position across open terrain.... even though the raw numbers are unbalanced...the play situation is balanced to account for that. MMO's just don't seem to handle that very well.
A lot of people are simply afraid of failure and I get that, it's a consequence of the 'participation trophy' mentality I saw growing up in the United States. Most people simply do not want to fail because, in an environment where criticism is largely a personal attack instead a constructive commentary on method, folks simply don't want to be failures. Sad as it is some players simply are failures in a given area, they're just not good at it and for any of a number of reasons, and that is perfectly fine. Not everyone can be good at everything.
For the longest time I didn't like PvP and that was purely because of griefers. After all, there is a difference between getting your ass handed to you by a more skilled or higher-level player and getting tracked and killed constantly because your assailiant has e-peen issues. Once I was able to get into PvP, though, I really enjoyed it and it is a feature that really should be in most of these MMORPG worlds. It's an enriching experienec and a damn fine way to teach a bully a lesson that would otherwise land you in prison for teaching in real life.
Take a chance with PvP folks. You may be terrible about it but, hey, it'll make you appreciate the parts of the game that you are stellar at all the more...and at the very least it can be great stress relief!
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
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^^ This
If there was a "bounty" system or some other mechanism to get "revenge" against griefers I would be for more open PVP. I PVP for the social aspect more than the competitiveness. I dont mind getting my a$$ kicked a few times if I am with friends or with a group of people that are having fun. As repetitive as WOW BGs became I often ahd fun playing with the same players and working together as a team. Nullsec PVP in EVE is great, its expected. I dont mind getting my ship blown-up and losing all of the modules as long as I am with a group and we are having fun. Soemtimes we win, sometimes we lose. I dont care for highsec PVP where it has become a gankfest. The intentional greifers in highsec are the worst side of PVP. (As someone else already said; "shin-kickers and food tossers".) That being said I dont see anything wrong with Hulkaggedon. Its a known event, its advertised and action can be taken to avoid it. its akin to a mini-game and I applaud Helicity's ingenuity in creating a plyer-run event. That is another good side of PVP. When Hulkaggedon comes around I park my miner for a week and move on. No point in QQing.
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Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
I'm really not a fan of open PvP. It can be very irritating at times. That's not to say I'm not very good at it, but to me it seems very silly.
In order to prove to himself that he is a "badass", a player might see an apparently unsuspecting player a level or two below him, minding their own business, etc. The player then attacks his target, believing that, in victory, he will feel like a force to be reckoned with. A predator. As he is attacking, his target disables and kills him.
This has happened to me more times than I can count (with myself as the target). The experience is ridiculous and embarassing for the attacker, and a supreme annoyance to the target. The worst part of it is, the only way for the PvP'er to prevent something like this occurring is to "prey" on players far weaker and less powerful than himself: a practice that is petty and generally frowned upon. They may not give a damn, but it certainly gives open PvP a bad name.
And yet, if the playstyle were changed, would that make a difference?
For a long time, my only problem with mmo-style pvp (and *most* mmo pvp systems are built along very similar lines) has been the inherent imbalance built into a game system that says that player "A" is more experienced than player "B" and therefore automatically more powerful; simply because he's played longer.
Personally, I much prefer a system that rewards experience with more options, but not necessarily more powerful, or automatic methods to kill someone at a lower level. Something like this:
/start hypothetical scenario...
Player "A" is a soldier, he has two weapons, a backpack, and a unique, class-based ability.
Player "B" is an advanced player, let's call him a General. He has all of the same things that player "A" has, plus his advanced level has granted him adittional abilities such as: He can command NPC troops that include special forces, conventional units, cavalry, indirect fire, or more... all things that he can use to bring about the demise of player "A".
Yet he's still a person, and one bullet or arrow shot from the player "A" noob to the skull should cause his death just as quickly as anything else. If player "A" is smart enough to infiltrate close enough, then good for him. Player "B" should fear what could happen if a single soldier breaks through his far more advanced defenses. -- Yet he can choose from many available options to affect an entire battlefield.
Unfortunately, in most mmo's out there, the soldier is not any threat at all to the advanced player. The only exception that I can think of would be PlanetSide, where attaining higher rank simply meant unlocking more weapons or vehicles, but the higher level character can be brought down by a noob sniper who gets a good shot in.
I guess, ultimately, I'd like to see morte realism in my sci/fi-fantasy escape from reality.
In Everquest, the FFA PVP server only allowed you to attack players 4 levels above or below you. The team servers were 8 levels. Healers could still heal and buff anyone though (excpet on the team servers probably). There was still mindless ganking, but it was a lot more "fair" than WoW's PvP where you are subject to ganking at any level if you are in the "wrong" zone.
And there is one very good way to avoid the kind of scenarios you speak of: Don't roll on a PvP server.
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The only game I ever really enjoyed PVP was DAOC, both on the normal servers and even the FFA server.
Reason being is that on the normal servers, there was clear cut areas to fight when I wanted to, and clear cut objectives and rewards (both personal and faction wide) and I really enjoyed that game like no other since. (EVE's not bad, but not quite as good as DAOC IMO)
Even on DAOC's FFA servers we changed the gameplay around a bit, unlike normal servers that traded keeps regularly, our clan grabbed a specific keep and we defended it against all comers (and assaulted the keeps of our opponents). Different objectives, but still equally fun.
I still play largely on PVP servers these days, mostly because it adds an extra edge doing the frequently boring PVE trying to avoid the gank.
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No lie.
I hate these scum sucking, mama tit hugging, tear (and unnamed body part) jerking, whining, sniveling, useless punks.
Too many great games have been ruined because some piece of trash can't handle the competition.
"unfair, unbalanced, unwhaaannn"
The key is to make friends and have fun. Being a bitch leaves out those 2 key ingredients.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I'm a casual gamer (maybe up to a few hours a day) and for me I like all aspects of mmorpg's (adventuring, exploring, gathering, crafting, PvE and PvP). The PvP encounter is fun as it allows me to test my play style against another person and not an NPC that has a standard attack/defense profile, PvP brings some randomness to the fight. That beging said the current way most games implment PVP its all about how fast you can lvl up and gear, gear, gear, skill doesn't come into it at all nor is the playing field lvl/balanced at all which has killed PvP for me.
EVE was mentioned in the article and I have to say that the person from my viewpoint was very lucky. I played EVE for 3 months I canceled my sub due to the out of control ganking. I played a miner/trader as i perfer to learn the game mechanices and layout before going in for a combat class. I'd leave a station and head out, say for a mining trip and along comes a group of pirates to trash me, I had no chance to fight back plus the lvl difference between us huge. Move to a different area and there'd be a different group but same result (over and over and over).
Aion came out and I loved the game right from the start. It had quite a few problems from the start but I could live with them. Then I finially got my toon lvl'd so that I could get into the PvP area's and was looking forward to some PvP that ppl were all raging about. I knew going in that I'd get killed alot since my lvl 20 toon was a neb (low lvl) for the area but I was tired of PvE and the crafting system was just to expensive to lvl up in for a lower lvl toon. First time into the area I get killed within 10 min by a lvl 47 ranger (a one shot kill) and within an hour I had been killed over 20 times buy nothing less than a lvl 39 toon. The area I was in was for lvl 20-30 lvl toons and thats what I expected to see and fight against. On top of that if you want abyss gear (which you have to have) you need to go to the abyss and farm pve or pvp for abyss points but again how a low to mid lvl toon is expected to do this without other players that are 10-30 lvls higher ganking them is beyond me so again i've canceled my sub.
Throw in elite guilds and kill quota's with zone/area control and PvP becomes something only hardcore gamers have a chance at, ppl like me who are casual gamers don't stand a chance since getting killed 20-50 times an hour is not fun. For me the only kind of PvP thats left is maybe RvR (Warhamer has this i'm told) where a player can join an open team for some RvR with the lvl's of the combatants begin closer but again it comes down to gear instead of skill so hardcore gamers who spend long hours each day playing will win every time. So for now I'm not playing any pvp games, call me a carebear, sissy, looser ect I'm not gona support the developers who seem locked into this type of pvp game play.
PvP is just an annoyance in otherwise fun games. There may not be actual packs of griefers, but there are enough in every game with PVP to make the game unenjoyable. With limited playing time, I try to accomplish something in every session - be it 30 min, one hour or multiple hours. Getting repeatably ganked while harvesting [Ryzom] or running to an appropriate level dungeon [AC Darktide] or just fighting different MOBs [DAoC] wastes my time and essentially ruins the game for me. It was always repeatedly ganked, sometimes by the same individual[s] and sometimes not, but it was never just once so that I could "ha ha, good moves there /salute" and move on.
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@The_Grump: The "participation trophy" was after my time. The issue that I have with pvp is that, in EvE for example, if you start the game and play for a few months and then go looking for some pvp: You lose. Period. You will kill no one unless you run to the starter system and suicide gank newbie ships. It's funny though, that guy at the beginning of the article who said he's played EvE for 4 years and only been attacked twice. Lol. Maybe he just hops in to update his skills, I got attacked within 1 jump of Jita 3 times last week. Meh, in a game where there is some possibility, even a small one, of success then pvp is ok. If you're a 2 month old character in EvE vs a 7 year old character in EvE? You lose. If you're a level 22 warrior in WoW running through Lakeshire and you get jumped by an 80 (and you will, believe you me ;-D)? You lose.
Let's be perfectly honest here, shall we? All the ardent supporters of PvP here are people who, by and large, win at pvp. If you deny it then make a WoW character on laughing skull server, level to 20 or so, run to the first contested zone you can find, and log in to the realm forums and demand some pvp. Spend the next 12 hours getting one-shot before you can even pop your hearthstone to escape. Rinse/repeat for a month or so. If, after that, you still come on here and tell me you love pvp I will believe you. Personally? I love PvP in some games. I love it in EvE when I find a 3 month old character flying an industrial on a courier mission through low sec. I have yet to find a three month old in null sec but someday.... I like it in WoW when I'm on the way to help a guildie in stv and I arrive right after his 30 gets attacked by a couple 50's and I cheerfully butcher them. I love PvP when I snipe some dude from cover in CoD:MW. Or when I find a sniper with very little situational awareness when I'm on my pyro, sneak up behind him and WHOOSH! Sniper Flambe'!
Getting killed isn't nearly as much fun as killing but as long as I do the killing a fair amount of the time I'm ok with it.
Tnhere onoly 1 thing i hate bout PVP and it is in every game ever seeen with PVP, gankers stupid ppl think it cool to kill u over and over again while they are 50 and u are lvl 2.If someones says oh that dont happen 9 times outta 10 they are ones doing it. I mean I have no prob with good ol fashion fight me against him if is somewhat fair fight, and say i just turned 50 i dont expect to win against someone been 50 for a yr and been out there, but for 50's sit there and kill lvl 2;s over and over same guy mind u and sit there and laughs at u like see am cool I can kill u, probable cant fight ppl his own lvl why he camps babie area's.Like Mortal online, game was made for 2 type ppl theives and gankers what fun is it to run round butt naked with nothing on even cause everytime u get something muight help from good smeritain here ur ganker or theif kills u and off he goes leaving u bear naked. I am a crafter by my account and if u cant last 2 min into a game forget it aint worth my time to waste let the theives and gankers have game will go elsewere to craft....
The only misconceptions about pvp in most of these games is that the developers think people will play fair, while most do there are enough that will take advantage of any edge to ruin it for the rest of us.
I don't know any f2p that even has a resemblance of fair pvp. Everyone is pay to win and not a cheap pay at that. Saw someone say that Warhammer has the best pvp, which is a real laugh to me. Best pvp I ever had was DAoC pre Atlantis. UO was not bad either before they borked it up with later expansions. Even AC had better pvp on Darktide than Warhammer. Too bad Mythic could not look back at their past to see what worked.
As far as I'm concerned, and this is just imho as always, an MMO without PVP it too much of a walk down a path in the forest. It's pretty, I enjoyed it but I never left the path. The only real, unscripted moments any game can throw at you has to revolve around other players. The chaos factor. Without the chaos, possibilities, whatever you want to call it, it's still enjoyable but not as much as it could have been. For me. When the day finally comes that someone launches a true triple A title, maybe not focused on PvP but allowing for the fact that players can do what they could if it were a real world, with definite consequences of those actions in place, I'll be happy man and I think many people will finally understand that there isn't a true challenge unless another player, prick or not, is behind it. At least in an MMO, FPS, etc. Don't get me wrong, love games like Bioshock but unless Bioware can pull that off in a multi-player world, we're stuck with each other as our best competition.
Played in some form:
UO til tram, AC, EQ, AO, WW2O, PS, SB, CoH, AC2, Hor, LoTRO, DDO, AoC, Aion, CO, STO
Playing: WoW (for gf), WAR
Waiting For: SWTOR, FFXVI
Hoping For: DCUO, Secret World, Earthrise
-S- (UO Sonoma)
I'd have to agree with you! I never liked PvP, and I can easily take out people, but its just not fun to play PvP, and I never understood the fascination toward PvPing.
PvP in most games, suck bunches, theres no balance, and most of it is geared to certain classes, due to there obseen skill pool that excels in 1v1 combat! Thus they have the advantage or most players in the game. Of course there are other classes that may have a certain hidden skill that completely flops the game around and they can easily win now! Also often or not the PvP systems in games just aren't fully developed, and the engine is just bad thus creating a horrible PvP experience.
Also there are players out there that gear themselves with extrodinary armor thats is nearly impossible to catch up to! Why!? because they excelled in a certain area before everyone else, they have connections that others don't and once they become ontop they stay ontop, due to them being able to do things others can't. Usually Cash Shops in MMO's allow players to excel past others easily in game because its an instant upgrade usually that other players CANT afford. Thus is what throws off PvP battles, its not skill ever, but its always about numbers, and whom uses there oftenly "cheating" skills the best.
One thing I do hate, of which I've done, is moves that stun, Stun here stun there. Its not really a strategy, its just a broken PvP move thats irritating, the other player Cant defend themselves, or come up with a strategy to defeat you. I've beaten an elite player once with no armor using this tactic that they could not avoid. This is why I HATE PvP
I love shiny rare things!
MMORPG's are the worst game system to have PvP. There is no PvP system in an MMORPG that is any good at all - with the exception of Planetside and that is because it is an FPS type MMORPG/FPS. The rest...suck. If MMORPG's are going to have PvP then level the playing field and allow for player skill to be what decides who wins and who loses instead of arbitrary set of skills(games that are heavily skill based like DF are still full of fail) and the roll of dice.
Make an MMORPG that has combat like Mount and Blade or BF2 and then let's talk PvP.
[quote]Originally posted by uncus
[b]Getting repeatably ganked while harvesting [Ryzom] or running to an appropriate level dungeon [AC Darktide] or just fighting different MOBs [DAoC] wastes my time and essentially ruins the game for me. It was always repeatedly ganked, sometimes by the same individual[s] and sometimes not, but it was never just once so that I could "ha ha, good moves there /salute" and move on.
[/b][/quote]
It sounds likely to me that maybe in your harvesting scenarios the opponent was after the same resources as yourself and possibly perceived you as a threat to him/her or "his/her" resources. You also have to expect a PvP situation bordering any instance. Instances are areas of the game where groups of players (all of similar levels) will come together on a regular basis. This makes the area a "Hot Spot" for PvP. A PvP enthusiast prefers to stay within these "Hot Spots" in order to get the most PvP action. Being in a low population area is to the PvP enthusiast what wastes his/her time and essentially ruins the game for them.
Ganking is an entirely different conversation. Granted, some people will not engage in PvP Combat unless they are absolutely positive that they have the upper hand on their opponent. It's sad but it's very true. However, most people tend to run around with a group of friends knowing that at any time they could stumble upon a group of opposing enemies and realize the difficulties that could arise in fighting them alone. It is also slightly more fun to share these PvP experiences with friends. This seems all fine and dandy up until the point where that lower-level solo player of the opposing faction runs out onto the road in front of your party. Ideally, you just run past him and leave him be, hoping that he will notify his faction of your presence. Though commonly players will launch the attack expecting the player to whine about it or request assistance via his/her chat channels. In either scenario the goal here is to alert the opposing faction that you are a threat within their territory. You are attempting to create a "Hot Spot" of your own through this behavior. The deeper within their territory you get (which unfortunately also happens to be the usual "lowbie" or low-level areas) the more of a rush you get because you feel as if it took more of a challenge to get there or because you've managed to launch an attack on an area that you shouldn't have a chance in hell of getting to.
UO (Ultima Online) had implemented a Faction system where there were Faction Strongholds located outside of town and in otherwise desolate areas. These Strongholds were ideal PvP "Hot Spots" for any Faction member. This system also worked because the Faction Ruleset only applied on the Felucca (PvP) half of the shard (realm) allowing those that aren't interested in the conflicts to avoid it completely. In my opinion no other PvP system has ever succeeded as well as the UO systems. With Guild Wars, Factions, and the Chaos/Order system, you didn't even have to become a murderer in order to enjoy the competition. Toss in the fact that FFA PvP only existed on the Felucca side of the shard and you have the perfect system. One that rewarded those that were willing to face the additional risk and one that sheltered those unwilling to participate. Neither side wrong, nor punished, just different.
I have to agree with that. Though I was too big of a UO fanatic at the time and never got to try DAOC. I really regret that
"Can't... Sleep... The Carebears... Will get... Their way..."
Maybe I missed it but I don't see any misconceptions about PvP here. It's always about the gear and I don't believe anyone really thinks other wise. One would wish it was about skill but not one really believes that. More often then now unless it's structured it is a gankfest and these designers have to know that. They might not want to openly admit as it could be bad for business but they know full well what systems they designed. Those that have the most money to buy multiple accounts will have a clear advantage over everyone else. Those that don't have a life and play the game nonstop will have an advantage over everyone else.
What I would have liked for them to have done was address the difference between a PvPer and a Pker. It is the PKers that give PvP a negative reputation (not a misconception but highlight the problems that are actually there) and who simply want prey.
It would have been nice if Shadowbane, Ultima Online and the creation of Trammel, and Dark Age of Camelot's Frontier were talked about in terms of their positives and negatives. This didn't really seem like a discussion on the topic of PvP. More like PR speak.
I don't care for PvP at all either. It has nothing to do with me winning or losing in a PvP situation. I just don't like it, and i take no pleasure from actually winning. It's not for me. I am with you, don't force it on the rest of us. Just make the PvP situation clear and stop trying to cater to both crowds and make both unhappy with the system.
Oh I don't know how you say the word often and exceptional in the same breath and not scratch your head. If veterans OFTEN hunt lower levels in a certain area in AoC , then it is not an exceptional situation or scenaio.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Agreed. There are many ways to create a successful PvP game but there are also many things that can destroy it. Item-based PvP is one of the worse afflictions. In a competition over who is the better fighter it just doesn't make sense to involve who has the better gear. I understand the entire carrot on a stick theory as far as PvE is concerned however it just doesn't make any sense to apply the same concept to PvP.
There are ways to have both. If the developers give all items a default DMG cap against other players for example. With a more Arena style of PvP players can be stripped of their items and forced to equip themselves with the gear offered in the arena before the match begins. The original gear would be traded back of course after the match. Certain spells or abilities should not be available in PvP combat and others should also have a DMG cap vs other players..
Also developers need to balance PvP on a 1v1 scale without using a Paper/Rock/Scissors system. Large scale PvP matters little when simple 1v1 combat is not up to par.
These are things that can contribute to a fair, albeit unrealistic, PvP Environment.
"Can't... Sleep... The Carebears... Will get... Their way..."