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*WHY* do you love or hate PvP?
pinkdaisy
Member CommonPosts: 361
There are alot of threads here that debate whether PvP is good or bad for MMOs. People seem widely split on the issue. The question i have is WHY do you think PvP in MMOs is the best thing since sliced bread or the worst idea ever.
for PvP:
- more challenging than fighting computer controlled monsters
- social gaming
- requires skills
- can ruin someone else's fun
against PvP:
- gankers
- griefers
- gets in the way of my fun
- can ruin someone else's fun
Those are just a couple examples to get the discussion started. I'm curious to know what the community thinks. Remember, please don't just say you are for it or against it. What i'd like to know is WHY you support or disprove of PvP in MMOs.
thanks,
PD
www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project
They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safetey deserve neither. -- Ben Franklin
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. -- Milton Berle
Comments
Well...I like PvP a lot.....because for one.....
Gankers: If you get ganked, all the more reason to get stronger; if someone else gets ganked, you get some fun in hunting them down.
Griefers: You can Re-Grief them....
Gets in way of my fun: How? I mean cmon, you get to kill people when they make you mad or angry...I wouldn't want someone following me or spreading stupid rumors.
Can Ruin Someone Elses Fun: If hes a jerk, kill him; If he is innocent you can help him....
So that is why I support PvP, its just better >.>
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Welcome back Rent, haven't seen you make any posts in the past couple weeks.
I couldn't agree more that making MMOs "easy" is a shortsighted solution. Another word to describe what you are talking about it "churn" -- the percentage of playerbase that leaves/cancels their subscription each month. Easy games are great at attracting players, but that same ease of gameplay turns into boredom quickly. Thus one would expect the "easier" MMOs to have higher rates of churn. I know it was that way for me. $50 for the WoW retail box + my one month of included gameplay and i was out of there. By contrast i played EVE Online for 7 months before i left. I would imagine that WoW will have a very high churn rate.
Back to the PvP thing. I'm trying to figure out exactly why it is that people either love or hate PvP. I've spent alot of time looking at the issue from many angles, and i'm wondering if the people who hate PvP so much in MMOs hate it just because they hate PvP or they hate it because of the broken gameplay mechanics (the exponential power increases by character level). My gut feeling is both but many more because of the broken gameplay, but i'm hoping to dig a little deeper into gamers thoughts with this thread.
cheers,
PD
www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project
They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safetey deserve neither. -- Ben Franklin
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. -- Milton Berle
As it stands now, I am against a pk system, and for a PvP system. Like Dark Age of Camelot.
I would be fore a PK environment if it took skills to kill, instead of whoever has the highest level.
The arguement of "re-grief" or "makes you want to get stronger to kill". Is a lie, if you get griefed, you can't re-grief, because if you stood a chance it wouldnt of been griefing. And if you get constantly griefed, it doesnt make you want to get stronger, it makes you want to say fuck this. this sucks.
I like PvP a lot!
Because non-consenual PvP + Twitch based combat = it actually adds tons of my entertainment in a skilled based combat system rather than clicking on "engage" to attack your target.
However, it gets abused to a point where there are way too many players are PKers and not enough good guys to deal with them.
Sadly, a lot of people take the game too seriously when they get bagged by another player and come up with all this anti-pvp additude which tells me the majority of players are a bunch of cry-babies.
Why get upset for something you see on a computer screen?
Well if there was a young audience playing an MMO, I guess PvE would be ok.
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The thing is, in a level based game(90% of mmorpgs), with a max level of say 50. The people who are 24, like fighting other 24s they dont mind getting attacked by them, they can fight back, and its fun for both parties. Same for 50s vs 50s. But a 24 attacked by a 50, is NOT fun for the 24, no matter what. THEY WONT LIKE IT.
dont use the excuse it wouldnt bother you. It would
In a level based game, people are leveling to 50 so they can compete in pvp, and have fun with it, in BALANCED fights.
So when your leveling so you can pvp, and someone who comes up and one shots you. Not fun. Some games you lose exp, like in lineage 2(open pvp, and its horrible getting griefed, considering you lose exp and sometimes items, and it takes sooo long to level as it is).
Look at World of warcraft. I started on a pvp server, i try to level but in some areas.. its just impossible. When i was attacked by someone 4ish levels around me, i enjoyed it, i could fight back and had a enjoyable pvp experience. Even if i died. Yet when someone 10 levels higher killed me and then camped my corpse untill i stopped coming back, I hated it, and thats why i have a 42 sitting on frostwolf gaining rest exp like mad. Yet after 40 the options to level are quite low, and they are all shared by both horde and alliance. Not to mention the TOTAL LACK OF ANY GOAL AFTER 40! Re-rolled on a normal server, have had a good time leveling, AND ALOT of GREAT PvP experiences.
you see thats why there are even PvE servers. Not because people dislike pvp, but because they dislike griefing.
I've said it before, there are 3 types of gamers, normal, enjoy pve and pvp somewhat, pvps they enjoy pvp and pve somewhat, and then theres the griefers, they LOVE killing people who stand no chance, and they HATE it when people fight back, you see this type ALOT in WoW, a 55 attacking 30s and when a 55-60 comes to attack him, he runs like a little girl.
pvp is definitely a good thing if you like to talk to other people and be competetive
this is what should make or break a game.. whether the pvp is good or not
I throroughly enjoy pvp for the reason stated above. It slides the difficulty bar on a mmo from easy to HARD. I don't want a happy tree hugging way to max level. I want it to be difficult and I want to be striving on finding new strategies on how to level better on a war consumed battlefield. It makes your goals much harder to achieve, but so much more fulfilling.
Usually after people reach max level (usually the ultimate goal) they're unsure of what to do. They have no other definite goals to set, so they leave the game. Usually when I get max level on a mmo though I will set goals such as getting certain items or killing so and so many people. There's tons of stuff to do after max level (contrary to popular belief) it's just up to you to find them.
The thing is, in a level based game(90% of mmorpgs), with a max level of say 50. The people who are 24, like fighting other 24s they dont mind getting attacked by them, they can fight back, and its fun for both parties. Same for 50s vs 50s. But a 24 attacked by a 50, is NOT fun for the 24, no matter what. THEY WONT LIKE IT.
dont use the excuse it wouldnt bother you. It would
In a level based game, people are leveling to 50 so they can compete in pvp, and have fun with it, in BALANCED fights.
So when your leveling so you can pvp, and someone who comes up and one shots you. Not fun. Some games you lose exp, like in lineage 2(open pvp, and its horrible getting griefed, considering you lose exp and sometimes items, and it takes sooo long to level as it is).
Look at World of warcraft. I started on a pvp server, i try to level but in some areas.. its just impossible. When i was attacked by someone 4ish levels around me, i enjoyed it, i could fight back and had a enjoyable pvp experience. Even if i died. Yet when someone 10 levels higher killed me and then camped my corpse untill i stopped coming back, I hated it, and thats why i have a 42 sitting on frostwolf gaining rest exp like mad. Yet after 40 the options to level are quite low, and they are all shared by both horde and alliance. Not to mention the TOTAL LACK OF ANY GOAL AFTER 40! Re-rolled on a normal server, have had a good time leveling, AND ALOT of GREAT PvP experiences.
you see thats why there are even PvE servers. Not because people dislike pvp, but because they dislike griefing.
I've said it before, there are 3 types of gamers, normal, enjoy pve and pvp somewhat, pvps they enjoy pvp and pve somewhat, and then theres the griefers, they LOVE killing people who stand no chance, and they HATE it when people fight back, you see this type ALOT in WoW, a 55 attacking 30s and when a 55-60 comes to attack him, he runs like a little girl.
Well yeah in a point and click MMO, it would suck for a higher level to attack a lower level and win all the time.
Thats why, in space trading games with a skilled based flight system, any low level that has a viable PvP ship and at the hands of an insanly skilled player can take out a high level ship with bigger firepower and protection anyday as long the high level ships do not outclass lowlevel ships and a well balanced selection to choose from.
Also not to forget in skilled based space trading games, power leveling is very possible especially alone if you really have good aim.
So in a scenerao if a highlevel in a PvP worthy ship shoots a newbie, the newbie can simple outmanuver long enough to avoid getting pked by another 15 year old punk kid.
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
I like the fact that I can be attacked by anyone at any time at any place, it makes the game exciting and less boring. It allows players to engage in wars and rivalries and form alliances and make enemies, which creates political intrigue due to the diplomatic element that PvP brings. It allows players to roleplay criminals, but also vigilantes. My decision to play an MMOG depends on the level PvP it provides.
That's exactly how I see it: you are not defenseless... I hate when newbies die to a high level guy and whine and instead of going out and hunting and getting stronger, they whine and whine and whine. Also, PvPing can be intense and sometimes give you a nice adrenaline rush.
An MMOG where a person who's invested more time than another person can automatically win without the lower developed char having no chance whatsoever is a crappy MMOG in the first place in my opinion.
I think PvP is good.
But the problem with most games, as previous posters have stated, is the exponential leveling that makes it impossible to compete with higher levels. I am all for a linear system, where 5 lvl 20 can kill one level 100 about half the time (if they are all equally smart). Or make the game with no levels and linearly progressing skills.
In my opinion, that is the only way to have working free for all PvP.
The thing is, in a level based game(90% of mmorpgs), with a max level of say 50. The people who are 24, like fighting other 24s they dont mind getting attacked by them, they can fight back, and its fun for both parties. Same for 50s vs 50s. But a 24 attacked by a 50, is NOT fun for the 24, no matter what. THEY WONT LIKE IT.
dont use the excuse it wouldnt bother you. It would
In a level based game, people are leveling to 50 so they can compete in pvp, and have fun with it, in BALANCED fights.
So when your leveling so you can pvp, and someone who comes up and one shots you. Not fun. Some games you lose exp, like in lineage 2(open pvp, and its horrible getting griefed, considering you lose exp and sometimes items, and it takes sooo long to level as it is).
Look at World of warcraft. I started on a pvp server, i try to level but in some areas.. its just impossible. When i was attacked by someone 4ish levels around me, i enjoyed it, i could fight back and had a enjoyable pvp experience. Even if i died. Yet when someone 10 levels higher killed me and then camped my corpse untill i stopped coming back, I hated it, and thats why i have a 42 sitting on frostwolf gaining rest exp like mad. Yet after 40 the options to level are quite low, and they are all shared by both horde and alliance. Not to mention the TOTAL LACK OF ANY GOAL AFTER 40! Re-rolled on a normal server, have had a good time leveling, AND ALOT of GREAT PvP experiences.
you see thats why there are even PvE servers. Not because people dislike pvp, but because they dislike griefing.
I've said it before, there are 3 types of gamers, normal, enjoy pve and pvp somewhat, pvps they enjoy pvp and pve somewhat, and then theres the griefers, they LOVE killing people who stand no chance, and they HATE it when people fight back, you see this type ALOT in WoW, a 55 attacking 30s and when a 55-60 comes to attack him, he runs like a little girl.
Well yeah in a point and click MMO, it would suck for a higher level to attack a lower level and win all the time.
Thats why, in space trading games with a skilled based flight system, any low level that has a viable PvP ship and at the hands of an insanly skilled player can take out a high level ship with bigger firepower and protection anyday as long the high level ships do not outclass lowlevel ships and a well balanced selection to choose from.
Also not to forget in skilled based space trading games, power leveling is very possible especially alone if you really have good aim.
So in a scenerao if a highlevel in a PvP worthy ship shoots a newbie, the newbie can simple outmanuver long enough to avoid getting pked by another 15 year old punk kid.
Which is why I love SWG...
1) It's not hard to become viable in PVP as there are numerous combat professions that are viable and it's not horrendously difficult to get to a point where you can take on another player. In SWG combat is about how you stack your skills, how you YOURSELF play and your gear. Then there's space combat... in SWG space combat is twitch and it's VERY fun.... even a noob pilot who is skilled can take out veteran/elite pilots if they're savvy. I wouldn't try it in the tier 1 or 2 ships but it doesn't take long at all to get to Y-Wings and X-Wings and once you're in one of those (or the imp / civvie equivalents) you can fare well in PVP in space if you have any skills. And for those who aren't super-skilled they can still have fun by crewing a multi-person ship manning the guns. In PVP in space in SWG one of the worst enemies is a well-crewed multiplayer ship... they are tough, especially 1 on 1 since their turrets can track any angle just about
SWG is about skill... one of the BEST PVP games I've played. And now they're improving the ground combat game
WOOHOO!!!
Sorry got spun off topic there..
why do I like PvP?
Because killing AI Mobs, no matter how well done the AI is, eventually gets old. I'm generally for consentual PVP combined with PVP areas be it a battlegrounds area like in DAOC or AO or an arena like old EQ had (though that isn't near as fun). SWG has a really good combination of that. There ARE PVP "Battlefields" where anyone can join in the fun. There's fully consentual PVP and there's assisted-consentual PVP and then there are PVP sectors in space where you're fair game if you go there.
I tend to prefer twitch type PVP which SWG caters to well in it's space game and doesn't do too bad at in the ground game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
SWG is a pretty nice space combat game but I can't really tell if it has space trading aspects in it or noe(like Jumpgate).
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Give me lights give me action. With a touch of a button!
My favorite part of MMO's is seeing new things. Whether it be a zone I haven't been into yet, a raid mob I haven't seen, or whatever else. PVP doesn't really fall into this category.
Now, onto the real substance. I look at PVP more from a business standpoint. I don't see any reason to put free-for-all PVP into a game cluster-wide. First off, there's the issue with people who don't like it. Then there are those who do, but don't like getting griefed. Yes, be fun.. but people in this post talk about how others whine about getting killed, but don't go and level - how can you level when someone's camping your corpse? Considering this.. in a perfect world I'd say there would be a several sectors that corpses pop in (which players without corpses cannot enter), and PVP cannot be initiated. Obviously this would create a need for zoning, to kill that exploit possibility. The sector your corpse pops in would depend on your location when you died (proximity), and would output text onto your chat window telling you which it was in. Either that, or a context menu that allowed you to choose the location where you wanted the corpse to pop. You'd still have to run and get it, so it's not much of a travel exploit, even considering rezzers. All other systems are flawed. This one can be exploited, but not as readily as the systems where you can't be attacked by a player if you have a corpse in the zone (my how short-lived THAT one was), and the normal loot-and-scoot system.
Then comes the leveling system which can turn a player almost unkillable to those lower than him. Obviously there are several ways to combat this. Designing the reward system based on level difference, the crappy "reputation" and "honor" systems, skill-based leveling, etc. Thus creating even more work in a game, and even more aspects to balance.
I'm still waiting for the day where a little kid kills another kid because he does it to people in the game he plays. You know people are stupid and like to place blame, and this will happen one day if it hasn't already. Lawsuit-happy bastards.
Really, PVP just creates more problems than it's worth for some companies - in my opinion. If I feel something isn't good for the longevity of the game, or the community, I generally don't like it. I'd rather feel safe that a game isn't going to die in six months because they tried to cater to everyone's wishes, than to kill a few people and get a few minutes of enjoyment. So I guess all this is why I don't care for PVP
- Nellus
First, i'd like to point out the PvP came around in the early 90's as a BUG in NWN, on AOL. It was never "fixed", because most people enjoyed it, it created a sense of community. Secondly, to attack another player, you had to do so indirectly, you could not specifically target the other player, you had to use area of effect spells.
Personally, I love PvP.
For me, it is more challenging than fighting mobs, because human beings are on a scale, generally, able to perform on the same level, more or less. This allows for a variety of tactical and strategical options and decisions. No AI, thus far, is as advanced as a human being, not even close. It is also a social thing and it require alot of skill, it brings the very best of the best to shine against each other.
For my PvP fix, I usually hunt gankers simply because frankly, some are among the very elite and the very best at killing others, which is what I am looking for. Everyone will encounter the dumb kid griefer who enjoys killing newbies, that's not the kind of player I am talking about here ... I mow those kids down like a weed-eater in a flower pot, I want a real challenge, the really elite players. There is no challenge in fighting newbies, or the innocent, most of them can't even raise their sword in defense and I can find that in most AI's in any game.
Is PvP good or bad for MMO's? It depends on the target group, and it depends on what kind of game your looking for. I will play some purely PvE games, but I will also play some pure PvP games. I profoundly hate people who ruin someone's elses experience. If the game is very well balanced, in 8 years I have seen few games that actually are even close to being well balanced, then PvP should be enabled and it should have penalties. If the game isn't balanced, a la EQ, EQII, WoW and DAoC for example, then there should be no penalty for PvP, ever. It just isn't balanced and fair.
~Iragael Vandayanaa,
Elder of the Vandayanaa Dynasty,
Knight,
Order of the Shield,
Sacred Silver Blades.
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Toughest rater in the world
Try to impress me, please, i dare u
I like PvP cause, well another player is behind the charecter. If you want PvE, just get a single player rpg, & if you want to chat, open ICQ, or go to a chat room & talk while you play.
I like PvP games as they are more challenging than normal computer controlled monsters.
However, I strongly resent those that preys on lower level players or those whom they can safely PK
The Best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time.
Depends what you're talking about. Since the economy in SWG is completely player driven it's definitely a 'space trading game' since you need to fly through space to buy/sell goods. But it's not the kind of game where you can buy commodities in one place and go sell them for a profit at another. Since it's player driven that doesn't happen.
But, if you were a scout/ranger type who enjoys harvesting meats you could find that you have to fly to wherever the current best meats are found, kill the critters, then fly back to whatever medic vendors are buying those at the best prices...
Since the market is searchable this works out well for folks like me who do just that. You can also do the same for other resource types. Remember that most crafters don't have the skill points to specialize in resource gathering on their own so they typically buy resources from miners.
So, yes, in a way, it does have what you're talking about. But you have to think of it more as a supply/demand situation rather than some NPC that will always buy for a set ammt. If a doc is overstuffed on something he may stop buying for a time.
It's really a very well done economy and works really well. You can get very rich in SWG without ever firing a shot in anger.... just ask the local entertainers
If you want to know more about SWG feel free to start a thread asking about it. As a former fan of Jumpgate I will state that I find SWG far more rewarding than Jumpgate ever was. .... you could also PM me if you want to talk more, since this is way off the topic of this thread.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I like PvP because after all the hard work you put into leveling your character you can show off in some sweet PvP fights
I like pvp because i can get back at people
Think about it, you have a high level character and you decide to make a new character one day...this mid-level guy comes in and ks's all ur new character's monsters...you get mad right? what i do is go on my high level and kill him...then i will smile upon his corpse (:{D
What if another player kills me for no reason? i dont care, earning back what i lost is part of the thrill of mmorpgs i love
Why do I dislike PvP in most games is because it just turns out to be PK and the buffer will win.
That however isn't the most important point I dislike in PvP. The real problem is that in non consentual PvP there is no punishment system for the murderer because that is what it is. Some people ganking or griefing others are murderers and the games should have a system to punish them. An example could be to have non PvP areas like cities where those that commit murder outside the cities are marked and can be killed as the outlaws they are.
Seriously, we play mmorpg's if I wanted pvp battles back in the day I would play Mortal Combat, today I'ld go see Halo2. Certainly PvP battles have their place both if the fight is agreed on or if it's not agreed on. I remember playing a criminal in Daggerfall. It sure as hell wasn't a good thing to kill another lawfull character, guards would come chasing you and the worse a criminal you were the more guards that would chase you. I enjoyed killing the guards but that one day I had 123 Guards chasing me the last one eventually got to me and I died.
Point is as stated a bit before, I don't remember who posted sorry, what morals are you teaching a 10y old that is going to be the next target of mmog makers ? Killing is ok, as long as you are the strongest or in some extremely rare cases, the most skilled, nothing will happen to you. Well to you PvP lovers and as I see many of you that would even fall under the griefer/ganker category the following question : Would it be equally fun if there was an rp punishment to PvP that would limit you in certain aspects of the game ? Because that is what you are doing : limiting other players to enjoy a part of the game the way they see it fit.
I think that is what the main problem is for people that don't like PvP, the fact that the griefer gets to do something completely against the rules of general civilized behavior, gets away with it and often comes to rub it in your face. The fact that most people like to kill but hate to be killed will get you a good part of people disliking PvP. I have yet to find a game that allows PvP with common sense.
I don't enjoy PvP in most games due to the fact that
Games are meant to fit everyones needs. In that aspect I'm not a PvP hater there should be an outlet for those that like it, but I'm far from being a PvP lover.
As to those little griefers : Is the bully in school always right just because he's stonger ? Hopping on another character is considered metagaming* one of the other larger problems in mmorpg's but in a general matter, not just in terms of PvP. Do you enjoy having your corpse being camped so that your character can't advance in the game ? How can it remain fun to kill others without a reason ? (unless you are playing the role of a criminal)
* Using the knowledge of another character you play to better advance in the game. This is in my opinion cheating unless you can make your two characters meet and discuss what happened.
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