I don't want to play a Jedi, I just want to play someone living in that world. Granted, I want to play a character much more powerful than a person could ever be in real life, but that doesn't mean I have to be a Hero. I mean, we're talking about the Star Wars universe here. The freaking Ewoks are more powerful than someone could ever be in real life.
I am currently going through the WoW Cataclysm beta, and while the new quests and stories are awesome, I still do not understand this focus(that SWTOR will have as well) about having the player act like he is the hero.
The game is a MMORPG. The point is that you are just one in a million soldiers/jedis/fighters! So why have every NPC act like that you are "the one". It makes litte sense to me! We already have this in single player RPGs.
I can't be the only one, that likes to just be a small ant in a much bigger power play. It destroys the immersion when the guy next to you who specced like you, got the same loot as you and did the same choices, also just saved the galaxy. People are not stupid, and they can see that it does not matter.
That's one of the things I liked about SWG. You were just a small fry trying to make a name for yourself. Out with the egotistical self obsession I-am-a-hero, which we have plenty off in single player RPGs anyway!
You could still have compelling stories, choices and characters interacting with you, if they just acted you as another jedi or soldier, and not the saviour of the universe. Honestly, I find it damn childish and like spoon feeding. What - Are we supposed to pretend that we don't notice the guy next to us, just did all the same quests?
Even with the different stories for each class, if your a bounty hunter your going to run into other bounty hunters who did the same stuff, did the same quests and had the same choices, and that will reflect in their companions and gear!
It's also really bad in WoW. It's like it's the mindset of a me-me-me culture.
you could still be a hero on a much smaller level, still have just as meaningful stories. perhaps more meaningful, as one would be more able to realistically relate and be emotionally impacted by something more "human" than a six-pack dual lightsaber wielding overpowered super sayian obiwanxxxkiller39 that saves the galaxy.
I guess it's not directly aimed at SWTOR, but as I understand it, this game will practice this, and this annoys me, because I think it will go a long way to ruin the immersion of the story. Nobody likes to be talked down to. Like Jar Jar, clocking down the plot as the herald, forcefeeding it, assuming the audience is beyond dumb and incompetent.
/rant
TOR's developers explained this in detail some time ago, the info must be still on TOR's website. Would you ever roll an ordinary, "one in a million", trooper or smuggler? A sith only needs to look at such one and he will drop dead where he stands. Unless you wan't us to accept that a plain trooper can take on a force & lightsaber using class in a balanced fight.
If Jedi's and Sith where not available classes then you may had a point. But since they are then the other classes must be "special" ones for the pvp aspect to have some sense.
even though jedis die in the clone war against the droids and against the clones later, things is we want a more make your own destiny, not a you are destined to be a hero, plus jedis need to be padawan before they will become masters, you can't start big you need to get there
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
yes but come to think, what king arthur or neo did no one else did, but in a MMO case if you do it anyone from the same class do it too, so its not like awesome , if anyone can do it its not special, just normal
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
But just like you said earlier "That is why MMOs don't work." MMO worlds are static. Nothing your character does has any lasting impact on the world at all. Kill some monsters, a raid boss, an enemy faction NPC, find the mighty epic battle axe of the great dwarfen king Shinkicker McGee .... and they just respwan in a few minutes for the next f-tard in line. Whether we have quest NPCs telling us we are the one true chosen hero or not, it doesn't change the fact we are just one of a million rats in a maze, each looking for the sacred cheese.
It would be nice if developers would stop trying to come up with new shiny carrots to dangle before us and instead get to work on creating mutable, changeable worlds where we could all feel we make some kind of difference.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Much to learn , you still have. Jedi master you are. F* the force , you will .
Honestly regardless of the MMO , I never paid attention to what any NPC ever had to tell me since I got a quest log to view the quest/mission. I just click next , next , next , accept.
Just deliver me some decent gameplay and I'm a happy gamer.
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
I think that's not what he is saying. It's not a binary choice...it's a scale.
What I think he's saying is:
Current MMO's: I am Super-Man, Luke Skywalker, Connan. I saved the Universe all by my self, Won the War single-handed, etc.
What he wants: I was ONE of the guys who came ashore with the first wave at Omaha Beach. Alot of us didn't make it...but those that did...we're really proud of what we did that day. We did alot to HELP make the Landings a success.
Give me choice #2 any day. The "save the universe single handed" thing is just stupid, hacknied and childish. The "I am one individual among many who helped make something important happen." makes for a much better story (IMO).
Ok phasing does that to some extent. I know its not used enough and everyone who does the quest line gets to see the same phasing. But to some extent it works to change the world by what we do. I loved the questling for crusaders pinnacle and shadow vault.
I know most people want a phasing type where pvp changes the world. This would suck for me i hate pvp. im more intot the pve aspects of wow. And ill be more into pve aspects of swtor. That said using phasing to change the world based on my own story would be kinda cool Even if i knwo others get the same ability.
Guild wars says they are gonan do somethign like this. Where u walk in a town in under attack u beat up the invaders and the town is all of a sudden fine. I have read of mmos where when u go to bed at nite u can come on to a world that has changed due to what has gone on while u were sleeping. I hope they can pull it off woud be cool to see
Truth is though i have no issue with how quests work I just love to quest and level . If u want people to feel heroic though i think the world has to change a bit at least on the outer rim territories in swtor. U have to be able to do something to change the tide of war or else how heroic is it really.
I am currently going through the WoW Cataclysm beta, and while the new quests and stories are awesome, I still do not understand this focus(that SWTOR will have as well) about having the player act like he is the hero.
The game is a MMORPG. The point is that you are just one in a million soldiers/jedis/fighters! So why have every NPC act like that you are "the one". It makes litte sense to me! We already have this in single player RPGs.
I can't be the only one, that likes to just be a small ant in a much bigger power play. It destroys the immersion when the guy next to you who specced like you, got the same loot as you and did the same choices, also just saved the galaxy. People are not stupid, and they can see that it does not matter.
That's one of the things I liked about SWG. You were just a small fry trying to make a name for yourself. Out with the egotistical self obsession I-am-a-hero, which we have plenty off in single player RPGs anyway!
You could still have compelling stories, choices and characters interacting with you, if they just acted you as another jedi or soldier, and not the saviour of the universe. Honestly, I find it damn childish and like spoon feeding. What - Are we supposed to pretend that we don't notice the guy next to us, just did all the same quests?
Even with the different stories for each class, if your a bounty hunter your going to run into other bounty hunters who did the same stuff, did the same quests and had the same choices, and that will reflect in their companions and gear!
It's also really bad in WoW. It's like it's the mindset of a me-me-me culture.
you could still be a hero on a much smaller level, still have just as meaningful stories. perhaps more meaningful, as one would be more able to realistically relate and be emotionally impacted by something more "human" than a six-pack dual lightsaber wielding overpowered super sayian obiwanxxxkiller39 that saves the galaxy.
I guess it's not directly aimed at SWTOR, but as I understand it, this game will practice this, and this annoys me, because I think it will go a long way to ruin the immersion of the story. Nobody likes to be talked down to. Like Jar Jar, clocking down the plot as the herald, forcefeeding it, assuming the audience is beyond dumb and incompetent.
/rant
It's a myth in my opinion that mmo's are or should be about "that likes to just be a small ant in a much bigger power play" why would this have to be the standard model mmo's are built upon? MMO's first and foremost to me are built on video games which as you even suggest by and large cast the player in the role of hero or even villain for that matter.
I liked SWG too and I liked the fact that you could possibly "eek out a meager existence" if you chose but what I didn't like was that there was nothing that ever would make you feel truly heroic until after the NGE really. Why do mmo's have to be designed one way and not the other why exactly can't a video game serve both those play styles? It couldn't take SWG much to make those generic job genorators why not have some staff dedicated to missions which gave a feeling that it added to the overall cause and not just my bottom line which I could more often than not use to flaunt and extort the rest of the player base?
I would hope that TOR would incorporate features that made it possible to spend alot of time in game without questing but I can't disagree more that this game should resemble the overall grindfest that was SWG. Especially with the amount of money spent on this game, your sentiment would by and large be shared by alot of the old SWG fanbase and they could never break one million subs so why cater to an obviously limited market with a product this big?
There are obviously things I would love to see TOR capture that SWG had in my time there like intense pvp that was designed in such a way to instill deep passions unlike what I experienced in WOW which while fun was never really as intense as the wars we had in early SWG, the crafting system I do agree with many others was the best one I've ever played and I hope they can add a crafting element to rival it but no I don't want to play another Star Wars game without as SOE and Lucas love to say "iconic" "star warsy" content.
Another point you make that I'd like to address is your own personal immersion in the games you play as you mention how while speaking to an NPC in game you can't help but notice the guy with the similar build and somehow can't help but think about the fact that he just saved the galaxy just like you did. In real life I have friends who are friendly with others and they talk how exactly do I know what they are saying to each other? and what exactly is the strange amalgamation you create out of real life knowledge and in game knowledge? You the player knows what is going to be said to the other player right after or while you are talking to them but how does that automatically mean your character knows? I'm not automatically aware of what is said to the people I work with without them telling me what the boss said and often it doesn't even mean you here the truth that is a truth of life that you don't afford yourself in game play while at the same time injecting such real world knowledge such as what the quest giver is going to say, sounds like you are only handicaping yourself.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
I think that's not what he is saying. It's not a binary choice...it's a scale.
What I think he's saying is:
Current MMO's: I am Super-Man, Luke Skywalker, Connan. I saved the Universe all by my self, Won the War single-handed, etc.
What he wants: I was ONE of the guys who came ashore with the first wave at Omaha Beach. Alot of us didn't make it...but those that did...we're really proud of what we did that day. We did alot to HELP make the Landings a success.
Give me choice #2 any day. The "save the universe single handed" thing is just stupid, hacknied and childish. The "I am one individual among many who helped make something important happen." makes for a much better story (IMO).
That is your personal choice and as such it isn't wrong, in my last post I touched on the fact that hopefully as far as pvp goes TOR can capture the feeling of what pvp was like in SWG and how in ways it could "seem" to have an effect on the game world and your experience in it but again why should a game ignore the number 1 choice which we all know simply by SWG's design is more lucrative. Games that had intricate questing such as what SWG was largely copy and pasted from EQ were more successful than even Star Wars and I for one think that's the reason why.
Ironically the NGE was supposed to address this and make it more WOW like which once I finally saw for myself was much ado about nothing, they had the stupid legacy quest line plopped in the middle of the constant grind to things they were going to snatch from under you whenever they felt like it and that was not what WOW was about to me. WOW introduced characters to every area we could explore with sometimes up to a hundred quests in the area you were in and that's what made it successful.
I can't state enough I am not advocating getting rid of choice #2 as much as I'm saying choice #2 offers so little why not use your resources to try and make sure both types of player can be appeased.
Anothjer thing I ay want to add is while I did love the original SWG and if the design hadn't changed may have went back Star Wars has never been about the "farmville" playstyle you guys describe it ultimately focused on the people who swung the balance of the galaxy one way or another yes it was nice to live the life of all the "no name" background toons offered by SWG but why is it not natural to want to see your own story carved out much like Luke and company.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
I think that's not what he is saying. It's not a binary choice...it's a scale.
What I think he's saying is:
Current MMO's: I am Super-Man, Luke Skywalker, Connan. I saved the Universe all by my self, Won the War single-handed, etc.
What he wants: I was ONE of the guys who came ashore with the first wave at Omaha Beach. Alot of us didn't make it...but those that did...we're really proud of what we did that day. We did alot to HELP make the Landings a success.
Give me choice #2 any day. The "save the universe single handed" thing is just stupid, hacknied and childish. The "I am one individual among many who helped make something important happen." makes for a much better story (IMO).
Excellent analogy GrumpyMel. That is the difference between feeling special, and being special. MMO's these days are, as Tardcore so eliguently put it, the Special Olympics. Everybody wins.
Problem with everyone winning, is that winning loses it's value. Thus,the illusion of actually being a true hero is greatly diminished.
There doesnt have to be just one hero. My grandparents would call every single soldier of the allied forces in WWII heroes. They all risked their lives for strangers in a foreign country.
A heroic story can be made up of tiny pieces all performed by different ppl. Yeah I know, it sounds cheesy.
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
I think that's not what he is saying. It's not a binary choice...it's a scale.
What I think he's saying is:
Current MMO's: I am Super-Man, Luke Skywalker, Connan. I saved the Universe all by my self, Won the War single-handed, etc.
What he wants: I was ONE of the guys who came ashore with the first wave at Omaha Beach. Alot of us didn't make it...but those that did...we're really proud of what we did that day. We did alot to HELP make the Landings a success.
Give me choice #2 any day. The "save the universe single handed" thing is just stupid, hacknied and childish. The "I am one individual among many who helped make something important happen." makes for a much better story (IMO).
Excellent analogy GrumpyMel. That is the difference between feeling special, and being special. MMO's these days are, as Tardcore so eliguently put it, the Special Olympics. Everybody wins.
Problem with everyone winning, is that winning loses it's value. Thus,the illusion of actually being a true hero is greatly diminished.
this is one of the few things WAR did right..you were a solider nothing more...being a sngle hero is good..for single player RPGs..part of a group or team..much better MMO
There doesnt have to be just one hero. My grandparents would call every single soldier of the allied forces in WWII heroes. They all risked their lives for strangers in a foreign country.
A heroic story can be made up of tiny pieces all performed by different ppl. Yeah I know, it sounds cheesy.
Not cheesy at all. Being a part of something bigger than ourselves is something sorely missing in MMO's. A large part of it I believe is due to the fact that while it's easy to use the line 'join thousands of others online' to market a game, it's alot tougher to sell a product that requires a ton of players to enjoy.
You've got a class based story arc, you've got your companion story arcs, and you've got the over reaching overall story arc. That gives more than one way to differentiate yourself from others of the same class (granted there is a limit).
That doesnt mean that you are the hero of the galaxy just because you are playing the game, and it doesnt mean that NPC's would treat you as such. Play a Bounty Hunter and I'd imagine your arc will let you meet different NPC's than say a Jedi Consular would. Should the NPC's treat people differently based on arc and interaction? Sure.
None of those things mean, or imply that you are putting an end to a galactic civil war, that you are a icon like a Revan, Malak, Bastilla Shan, Luke Skywalker or so on. It means that your adventures are heroic, that you are overcoming odds, or whatever Bioware's vision is, but it doesnt mean that everyone does, or should know who you are. It makes the game, and the relationship with your character more personal.
I think assuming heroic activities means everyone knows you is a faulty assumption. On the contrary it just means your story arc will pit you against heroic feeling odds, but that's just you.
There doesnt have to be just one hero. My grandparents would call every single soldier of the allied forces in WWII heroes. They all risked their lives for strangers in a foreign country.
A heroic story can be made up of tiny pieces all performed by different ppl. Yeah I know, it sounds cheesy.
Exactly, mate!
In the original Call of Duty, I love the intro to the Russian campaign. It's the last defense of Stalingrad itself, and you slowly make your way into shore, as deserters get shot, and 5 NPCs in front of you wait their turn to sign up, get a weapon, and basically go out and die against impossible odds... And it that, you are nobody. You are just one of many, but it's still incredible significant. It's relateable.
I don't think The Force Unleashed is relateable. I am not attatched to that. Yes, he is a crazy hero that displays more heroes than any jedi or sith ever, and he can do the most crazy saber acrobatics and force moves, yet it does not move me. It bores me actually. To perfect of a character with little weaknesses. That removes the tension. He is just so powerful.
In the Call of Duty case, I was just a tiny Russian in a bad spot who was part of saving his country... It was much more moving, involving.
In MMO terms, I had the same experience in Planetside. You signed up with one of three armies, and I joined a squad. I went as a gunner on a 12 Man ship, and we went to a zone, where allied forces were hacking a fortress. Getting to the fortress and helping to secure it was decent enough. Little resistence. But near halfway through the hacking of the terminals, everything went to hell.
Over 300 enemies, stormed us, and I was there, on a 10 meter tall wall, looking into the distant looking at something which best could be described as a scene from the Animatrix: The second renassance or the geonosis battle. It was absolutely epic, and by far one of the most powerful experiences I have had. My faction came in large numbers, and then suddenly, I was just a guy shooting into what looked like little ants, in the amounts of players. Over 500 people, pvping... Like a shooter that played like Halo. This was when the game had just launched and before they capped the amount of players.
Anyway, incredible larger-than-life experience and sensation of war, that here 8 years later has not been surpassed, in what was, a very flawed games, but which had these sparks of genius.
And I simply think, that sharing some of these moments online, is what makes it so strange.
Also - I am very impressed with this thread, and the points brought up. I expected this thread to be locked by the 5th reply, but it seems I have underrestimated the SWTOR community, which makes me happy actually!
To a certain degree, it's absolutely true that a player has to suspend his disbelief. If we do not do this, we can hate on any game, no matter which. It's also true that at the current structure, there would still be the case that, if even the NPCs did not refer to you as "The One", people before you and after you would do the same.
Yeah, I just think my own sensibilities would like it more, had the NPCs been more humble. I am not sure what I think about heroric combat, and beating 3-4 enmies from the beginning. I like the high and low points, and also sometimes feeling weak, so it reinforces feeling strong later on. I understand the need... to have the game be appealing at a early level, but I just hope it won't be flailing hands and screaming to hold ADHD childrens attention, like many cartoons of today.
Like Jedi Outcast. A game that really had a rough beginning, with hard puzzles, with the players urging after getting a lightsaber. That was a bit extreme, but I felt KOTOR striked a great balance. That was such a great game. Maybe that is also why, so much feels like it's at stake with this one.
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
But just like you said earlier "That is why MMOs don't work." MMO worlds are static. Nothing your character does has any lasting impact on the world at all. Kill some monsters, a raid boss, an enemy faction NPC, find the mighty epic battle axe of the great dwarfen king Shinkicker McGee .... and they just respwan in a few minutes for the next f-tard in line. Whether we have quest NPCs telling us we are the one true chosen hero or not, it doesn't change the fact we are just one of a million rats in a maze, each looking for the sacred cheese.
It would be nice if developers would stop trying to come up with new shiny carrots to dangle before us and instead get to work on creating mutable, changeable worlds where we could all feel we make some kind of difference.
That's true. Regardless of whether someone calls me the savior or random guy #431, if we are always being asked to run to some control room to take out the death ray then it loses some of its "oomph" to be telling someone about it only to have them reply "oh yeah, I did that yestereday.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
But just like you said earlier "That is why MMOs don't work." MMO worlds are static. Nothing your character does has any lasting impact on the world at all. Kill some monsters, a raid boss, an enemy faction NPC, find the mighty epic battle axe of the great dwarfen king Shinkicker McGee .... and they just respwan in a few minutes for the next f-tard in line. Whether we have quest NPCs telling us we are the one true chosen hero or not, it doesn't change the fact we are just one of a million rats in a maze, each looking for the sacred cheese.
It would be nice if developers would stop trying to come up with new shiny carrots to dangle before us and instead get to work on creating mutable, changeable worlds where we could all feel we make some kind of difference.
That's true. Regardless of whether someone calls me the savior or random guy #431, if we are always being asked to run to some control room to take out the death ray then it loses some of its "oomph" to be telling someone about it only to have them reply "oh yeah, I did that yestereday.
I think it depends on the setup. In the Cataclysm beta, they are doing it very tightly focused, fast. It's very impressive from a casual point of view. it feels polished, and like a single player game.
Once your finished with westfall you have saved the day. then you save the day again in redridge.. it was thanks to you it didnt go to hell. and then in duskwood, and then in ashenvale. its always the same.. you are the eternal hero who made the world not blow up.
Had it been me, I would, have the NPCs refer to the player as another soldier passing by... another person in the army.. "more pelts are needed.. please help our cause".
then later, it would move up to be considered a knight, and a hero but in it's own terms that could apply to other people. but not luke skywalker. because your already luke skywalker after the battle at endor at lvl 10. thats under 2 hours of gameplay.
so at this point in the beta, I am lvl 40, and I am sick of being thanked. aint that weird? I am genuinely annoyed by the NPCs thanking me for no risk gameplay. its like they tried to hammer it so hard through, that it matters.
So what you're saying is that you want a game where you can roleplay as a barmaid? How about a horse-stall cleaner? A city guard who sits at a post for 12 hours a day, watching for invading forces?
You claim that you want to be able to carve out your own place in the game, but do you really want to be just another guy that no one knows? Doesn't sound much like escapism to me.
Way to completly miss the point. That isn't at all what the OP said. There is a diffrence between playing a worthwhile hero character who is in important part of the game world and everyones character being NEO, Luke Skywalker, or King Arthur.
I think the OP has a point, only when as you say a MMO attempts making everyone the chosen one. Heroes on the other hand are a tad different as there can be multiple heroes. Which can make sense in an MMO environment.
As far as making us the anti-hero etc... That's really up to us, devs don't usually go so far to explain our characters intents and personality for us. That's up to how we act more so than anything else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. And I think this is one of the things wrong with todays MMOs. Remember when SWG wasn't "star-warsy" enough? Because everyone wants to be a Luke or a Han Solo right?
Wrong! Back in the day, games like SW:ToR were called Co-Op games. Games wich you could play through the storyline with friends. thats all fun and fine, but not what I call an MMO.
In an MMO I try to make a name for myself, but I'm just another guy trying to make my way in whatever harsh and cruel world I find myself in.
But now you have everyone in MMOs be the superheros. "I saved the Princess!" "Wait, you too? How the hell did she get caught again?" "Hi guys, I actually saved her too. She never told me she was trapped before" "Me too!" "Yeah, speaking of the princess.... where is she?"
Of course she is in an instance thats done by thousands of heroes per day.
Singleplayer Co-Op games with monthly fees are the new MMOs I tell you!
if i want to play the hero i'll go out and buy a single player rpg title for my pc. in an mmo i should earn the right to call myself or friends a hero. that's what made swg pre-cu so great we didn't have a storyline that held our hand gave us items and told us how great we did for stoping whatever. you went out and earned the right in pvp or better still you worked at the game and got jedi so you could play a hero.
bioware needs to see that like i said we don't want to play heroes due to some in game storyline that is the same for everyone we want to earn that right and we should be rewarded for working and becoming a hero.
I still fail to understand how so many of you can divine how game play will be when the blasted thing won't be released for at least 7-8 months. It baffles me that you can actually woorry about being the one in game when you appear to have super natural future telling powers in real life. (sarcasm, love it) You have no idea what the play in this game will be like or what the story will tell. In most of BioWare's games you're not always a hero. In this game while you will play someone who is unique and special in the context of the entire gigantic universes they do not say anything about you playing "the one." Those that make references to other games and stuff it because you do not know that this will be like any other game having not played it or seen it. The tiny pieces of information BioWare has released has not been sufficient to put together a comprehensive look at the game play nor does it in any way tell you the many many story lines you might encounter in it. I say the game will be fantastic but if you want to play a janitor in a game then go find one or start development. I'm sure your mop techniques will be hours of fun.
Let's not call it "heroes" Let's call it "main protagonist". The person around wich the story revolves. In an MMO, the story can't evolve around everyone. The story should be the main anchor, and the players should partake in it, but it shouldn't revolve around every single one of them.
You can still be a hero, but not the center of the game universe.
PS: I think it has allready been made official that the first levels in SW:ToR will be single player only.
I love Bioware, they make fantastic Single Player titles. I played them all, from KOTOR to ME to DA. But I think they are approaching this MMORPG from a wrong angle.
I think it's pretty simple. It's due to themepark design. They want to get the player into exciting situations as fast as possible for the sake of maximizing fun. The tradition has always been to accept those heroic tasks to get into those exciting situations through NPCs. It's much easier to justify from a lore perspective why everyone is asking the chosen hero to do all these dangerous things for them (they've heard of you, respect you, and think you're their best hope to accomplish the task) than say, a random farmhand who just took up a sword and was in the right place at the right time.
So, there's a couple ways this can be worked around:
1) Rely less on these staged exciting situations to generate the bulk of your games fun (could be tricky). This would probably mean eliminating larger villians in the story and focusing on political intrigue and/or warfare so players could generate their own exciting situations. That would be sandbox design rather than themepark.
2) Allow the player to get into these exciting situations without direct NPC interaction and make them world events that anyone can see and participate in (such as the dynamic event system in GW2).
Let's not call it "heroes" Let's call it "main protagonist". The person around wich the story revolves. In an MMO, the story can't evolve around everyone. The story should be the main anchor, and the players should partake in it, but it shouldn't revolve around every single one of them.
You can still be a hero, but not the center of the game universe.
PS: I think it has allready been made official that the first levels in SW:ToR will be single player only.
I love Bioware, they make fantastic Single Player titles. I played them all, from KOTOR to ME to DA. But I think they are approaching this MMORPG from a wrong angle.
Actually there will be 8 main protagonists. Each with two different ways to be the main protagonist of their class story. Then these 8 main protagonists will band together in 4's or more to be the main protagonists in the world story arc.
This is the first time we will have 8 completely different stories in the same game. So not everyone will be doing every quest. And some in the same class will be doing it in up to four differnt ways. With two arch types for each class and a good or evil path, or both for a grey path.
Each SPG of BW had only one story. No matter where you started, the ending was the same. I agree with that. But having 8 stories instead of one will make a difference, along with 2 world stories. One for the Republic and one for the sith empire. And they could end up with PvP in Warzones on planets to have an ever changing balance of power on a given planet.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
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I completely 100% agree with what the OP is saying.
I wrote a blog about it on this site a while ago. "Not Everyone is a Hero"
I don't want to play a Jedi, I just want to play someone living in that world. Granted, I want to play a character much more powerful than a person could ever be in real life, but that doesn't mean I have to be a Hero. I mean, we're talking about the Star Wars universe here. The freaking Ewoks are more powerful than someone could ever be in real life.
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even though jedis die in the clone war against the droids and against the clones later, things is we want a more make your own destiny, not a you are destined to be a hero, plus jedis need to be padawan before they will become masters, you can't start big you need to get there
That is true.
However, by the very nature of your character taking on the "special missions" your character does start coming more front and center in the story.
Yes, it's ridiculous (in my opinion) for everyone to be neo and for the game world to be recognizing you as such.
However, if you are doing everything that a neo or king arthur would do then you are still fulfilling that role, even if npc's are not telling you that you are the chosen one.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
yes but come to think, what king arthur or neo did no one else did, but in a MMO case if you do it anyone from the same class do it too, so its not like awesome , if anyone can do it its not special, just normal
But just like you said earlier "That is why MMOs don't work." MMO worlds are static. Nothing your character does has any lasting impact on the world at all. Kill some monsters, a raid boss, an enemy faction NPC, find the mighty epic battle axe of the great dwarfen king Shinkicker McGee .... and they just respwan in a few minutes for the next f-tard in line. Whether we have quest NPCs telling us we are the one true chosen hero or not, it doesn't change the fact we are just one of a million rats in a maze, each looking for the sacred cheese.
It would be nice if developers would stop trying to come up with new shiny carrots to dangle before us and instead get to work on creating mutable, changeable worlds where we could all feel we make some kind of difference.
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Much to learn , you still have. Jedi master you are. F* the force , you will .
Honestly regardless of the MMO , I never paid attention to what any NPC ever had to tell me since I got a quest log to view the quest/mission. I just click next , next , next , accept.
Just deliver me some decent gameplay and I'm a happy gamer.
I think that's not what he is saying. It's not a binary choice...it's a scale.
What I think he's saying is:
Current MMO's: I am Super-Man, Luke Skywalker, Connan. I saved the Universe all by my self, Won the War single-handed, etc.
What he wants: I was ONE of the guys who came ashore with the first wave at Omaha Beach. Alot of us didn't make it...but those that did...we're really proud of what we did that day. We did alot to HELP make the Landings a success.
Give me choice #2 any day. The "save the universe single handed" thing is just stupid, hacknied and childish. The "I am one individual among many who helped make something important happen." makes for a much better story (IMO).
Ok phasing does that to some extent. I know its not used enough and everyone who does the quest line gets to see the same phasing. But to some extent it works to change the world by what we do. I loved the questling for crusaders pinnacle and shadow vault.
I know most people want a phasing type where pvp changes the world. This would suck for me i hate pvp. im more intot the pve aspects of wow. And ill be more into pve aspects of swtor. That said using phasing to change the world based on my own story would be kinda cool Even if i knwo others get the same ability.
Guild wars says they are gonan do somethign like this. Where u walk in a town in under attack u beat up the invaders and the town is all of a sudden fine. I have read of mmos where when u go to bed at nite u can come on to a world that has changed due to what has gone on while u were sleeping. I hope they can pull it off woud be cool to see
Truth is though i have no issue with how quests work I just love to quest and level . If u want people to feel heroic though i think the world has to change a bit at least on the outer rim territories in swtor. U have to be able to do something to change the tide of war or else how heroic is it really.
It's a myth in my opinion that mmo's are or should be about "that likes to just be a small ant in a much bigger power play" why would this have to be the standard model mmo's are built upon? MMO's first and foremost to me are built on video games which as you even suggest by and large cast the player in the role of hero or even villain for that matter.
I liked SWG too and I liked the fact that you could possibly "eek out a meager existence" if you chose but what I didn't like was that there was nothing that ever would make you feel truly heroic until after the NGE really. Why do mmo's have to be designed one way and not the other why exactly can't a video game serve both those play styles? It couldn't take SWG much to make those generic job genorators why not have some staff dedicated to missions which gave a feeling that it added to the overall cause and not just my bottom line which I could more often than not use to flaunt and extort the rest of the player base?
I would hope that TOR would incorporate features that made it possible to spend alot of time in game without questing but I can't disagree more that this game should resemble the overall grindfest that was SWG. Especially with the amount of money spent on this game, your sentiment would by and large be shared by alot of the old SWG fanbase and they could never break one million subs so why cater to an obviously limited market with a product this big?
There are obviously things I would love to see TOR capture that SWG had in my time there like intense pvp that was designed in such a way to instill deep passions unlike what I experienced in WOW which while fun was never really as intense as the wars we had in early SWG, the crafting system I do agree with many others was the best one I've ever played and I hope they can add a crafting element to rival it but no I don't want to play another Star Wars game without as SOE and Lucas love to say "iconic" "star warsy" content.
Another point you make that I'd like to address is your own personal immersion in the games you play as you mention how while speaking to an NPC in game you can't help but notice the guy with the similar build and somehow can't help but think about the fact that he just saved the galaxy just like you did. In real life I have friends who are friendly with others and they talk how exactly do I know what they are saying to each other? and what exactly is the strange amalgamation you create out of real life knowledge and in game knowledge? You the player knows what is going to be said to the other player right after or while you are talking to them but how does that automatically mean your character knows? I'm not automatically aware of what is said to the people I work with without them telling me what the boss said and often it doesn't even mean you here the truth that is a truth of life that you don't afford yourself in game play while at the same time injecting such real world knowledge such as what the quest giver is going to say, sounds like you are only handicaping yourself.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That is your personal choice and as such it isn't wrong, in my last post I touched on the fact that hopefully as far as pvp goes TOR can capture the feeling of what pvp was like in SWG and how in ways it could "seem" to have an effect on the game world and your experience in it but again why should a game ignore the number 1 choice which we all know simply by SWG's design is more lucrative. Games that had intricate questing such as what SWG was largely copy and pasted from EQ were more successful than even Star Wars and I for one think that's the reason why.
Ironically the NGE was supposed to address this and make it more WOW like which once I finally saw for myself was much ado about nothing, they had the stupid legacy quest line plopped in the middle of the constant grind to things they were going to snatch from under you whenever they felt like it and that was not what WOW was about to me. WOW introduced characters to every area we could explore with sometimes up to a hundred quests in the area you were in and that's what made it successful.
I can't state enough I am not advocating getting rid of choice #2 as much as I'm saying choice #2 offers so little why not use your resources to try and make sure both types of player can be appeased.
Anothjer thing I ay want to add is while I did love the original SWG and if the design hadn't changed may have went back Star Wars has never been about the "farmville" playstyle you guys describe it ultimately focused on the people who swung the balance of the galaxy one way or another yes it was nice to live the life of all the "no name" background toons offered by SWG but why is it not natural to want to see your own story carved out much like Luke and company.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Excellent analogy GrumpyMel. That is the difference between feeling special, and being special. MMO's these days are, as Tardcore so eliguently put it, the Special Olympics. Everybody wins.
Problem with everyone winning, is that winning loses it's value. Thus,the illusion of actually being a true hero is greatly diminished.
There doesnt have to be just one hero. My grandparents would call every single soldier of the allied forces in WWII heroes. They all risked their lives for strangers in a foreign country.
A heroic story can be made up of tiny pieces all performed by different ppl. Yeah I know, it sounds cheesy.
this is one of the few things WAR did right..you were a solider nothing more...being a sngle hero is good..for single player RPGs..part of a group or team..much better MMO
Not cheesy at all. Being a part of something bigger than ourselves is something sorely missing in MMO's. A large part of it I believe is due to the fact that while it's easy to use the line 'join thousands of others online' to market a game, it's alot tougher to sell a product that requires a ton of players to enjoy.
I think this is what Bioware has done right....
You've got a class based story arc, you've got your companion story arcs, and you've got the over reaching overall story arc. That gives more than one way to differentiate yourself from others of the same class (granted there is a limit).
That doesnt mean that you are the hero of the galaxy just because you are playing the game, and it doesnt mean that NPC's would treat you as such. Play a Bounty Hunter and I'd imagine your arc will let you meet different NPC's than say a Jedi Consular would. Should the NPC's treat people differently based on arc and interaction? Sure.
None of those things mean, or imply that you are putting an end to a galactic civil war, that you are a icon like a Revan, Malak, Bastilla Shan, Luke Skywalker or so on. It means that your adventures are heroic, that you are overcoming odds, or whatever Bioware's vision is, but it doesnt mean that everyone does, or should know who you are. It makes the game, and the relationship with your character more personal.
I think assuming heroic activities means everyone knows you is a faulty assumption. On the contrary it just means your story arc will pit you against heroic feeling odds, but that's just you.
Exactly, mate!
In the original Call of Duty, I love the intro to the Russian campaign. It's the last defense of Stalingrad itself, and you slowly make your way into shore, as deserters get shot, and 5 NPCs in front of you wait their turn to sign up, get a weapon, and basically go out and die against impossible odds... And it that, you are nobody. You are just one of many, but it's still incredible significant. It's relateable.
I don't think The Force Unleashed is relateable. I am not attatched to that. Yes, he is a crazy hero that displays more heroes than any jedi or sith ever, and he can do the most crazy saber acrobatics and force moves, yet it does not move me. It bores me actually. To perfect of a character with little weaknesses. That removes the tension. He is just so powerful.
In the Call of Duty case, I was just a tiny Russian in a bad spot who was part of saving his country... It was much more moving, involving.
In MMO terms, I had the same experience in Planetside. You signed up with one of three armies, and I joined a squad. I went as a gunner on a 12 Man ship, and we went to a zone, where allied forces were hacking a fortress. Getting to the fortress and helping to secure it was decent enough. Little resistence. But near halfway through the hacking of the terminals, everything went to hell.
Over 300 enemies, stormed us, and I was there, on a 10 meter tall wall, looking into the distant looking at something which best could be described as a scene from the Animatrix: The second renassance or the geonosis battle. It was absolutely epic, and by far one of the most powerful experiences I have had. My faction came in large numbers, and then suddenly, I was just a guy shooting into what looked like little ants, in the amounts of players. Over 500 people, pvping... Like a shooter that played like Halo. This was when the game had just launched and before they capped the amount of players.
Anyway, incredible larger-than-life experience and sensation of war, that here 8 years later has not been surpassed, in what was, a very flawed games, but which had these sparks of genius.
And I simply think, that sharing some of these moments online, is what makes it so strange.
Also - I am very impressed with this thread, and the points brought up. I expected this thread to be locked by the 5th reply, but it seems I have underrestimated the SWTOR community, which makes me happy actually!
To a certain degree, it's absolutely true that a player has to suspend his disbelief. If we do not do this, we can hate on any game, no matter which. It's also true that at the current structure, there would still be the case that, if even the NPCs did not refer to you as "The One", people before you and after you would do the same.
Yeah, I just think my own sensibilities would like it more, had the NPCs been more humble. I am not sure what I think about heroric combat, and beating 3-4 enmies from the beginning. I like the high and low points, and also sometimes feeling weak, so it reinforces feeling strong later on. I understand the need... to have the game be appealing at a early level, but I just hope it won't be flailing hands and screaming to hold ADHD childrens attention, like many cartoons of today.
Like Jedi Outcast. A game that really had a rough beginning, with hard puzzles, with the players urging after getting a lightsaber. That was a bit extreme, but I felt KOTOR striked a great balance. That was such a great game. Maybe that is also why, so much feels like it's at stake with this one.
That's true. Regardless of whether someone calls me the savior or random guy #431, if we are always being asked to run to some control room to take out the death ray then it loses some of its "oomph" to be telling someone about it only to have them reply "oh yeah, I did that yestereday.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think it depends on the setup. In the Cataclysm beta, they are doing it very tightly focused, fast. It's very impressive from a casual point of view. it feels polished, and like a single player game.
Once your finished with westfall you have saved the day. then you save the day again in redridge.. it was thanks to you it didnt go to hell. and then in duskwood, and then in ashenvale. its always the same.. you are the eternal hero who made the world not blow up.
Had it been me, I would, have the NPCs refer to the player as another soldier passing by... another person in the army.. "more pelts are needed.. please help our cause".
then later, it would move up to be considered a knight, and a hero but in it's own terms that could apply to other people. but not luke skywalker. because your already luke skywalker after the battle at endor at lvl 10. thats under 2 hours of gameplay.
so at this point in the beta, I am lvl 40, and I am sick of being thanked. aint that weird? I am genuinely annoyed by the NPCs thanking me for no risk gameplay. its like they tried to hammer it so hard through, that it matters.
Less is more, in cases like this.
I think the OP has a point, only when as you say a MMO attempts making everyone the chosen one. Heroes on the other hand are a tad different as there can be multiple heroes. Which can make sense in an MMO environment.
As far as making us the anti-hero etc... That's really up to us, devs don't usually go so far to explain our characters intents and personality for us. That's up to how we act more so than anything else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. And I think this is one of the things wrong with todays MMOs. Remember when SWG wasn't "star-warsy" enough? Because everyone wants to be a Luke or a Han Solo right?
Wrong! Back in the day, games like SW:ToR were called Co-Op games. Games wich you could play through the storyline with friends. thats all fun and fine, but not what I call an MMO.
In an MMO I try to make a name for myself, but I'm just another guy trying to make my way in whatever harsh and cruel world I find myself in.
But now you have everyone in MMOs be the superheros. "I saved the Princess!" "Wait, you too? How the hell did she get caught again?" "Hi guys, I actually saved her too. She never told me she was trapped before" "Me too!" "Yeah, speaking of the princess.... where is she?"
Of course she is in an instance thats done by thousands of heroes per day.
Singleplayer Co-Op games with monthly fees are the new MMOs I tell you!
if i want to play the hero i'll go out and buy a single player rpg title for my pc. in an mmo i should earn the right to call myself or friends a hero. that's what made swg pre-cu so great we didn't have a storyline that held our hand gave us items and told us how great we did for stoping whatever. you went out and earned the right in pvp or better still you worked at the game and got jedi so you could play a hero.
bioware needs to see that like i said we don't want to play heroes due to some in game storyline that is the same for everyone we want to earn that right and we should be rewarded for working and becoming a hero.
I still fail to understand how so many of you can divine how game play will be when the blasted thing won't be released for at least 7-8 months. It baffles me that you can actually woorry about being the one in game when you appear to have super natural future telling powers in real life. (sarcasm, love it) You have no idea what the play in this game will be like or what the story will tell. In most of BioWare's games you're not always a hero. In this game while you will play someone who is unique and special in the context of the entire gigantic universes they do not say anything about you playing "the one." Those that make references to other games and stuff it because you do not know that this will be like any other game having not played it or seen it. The tiny pieces of information BioWare has released has not been sufficient to put together a comprehensive look at the game play nor does it in any way tell you the many many story lines you might encounter in it. I say the game will be fantastic but if you want to play a janitor in a game then go find one or start development. I'm sure your mop techniques will be hours of fun.
Let's not call it "heroes" Let's call it "main protagonist". The person around wich the story revolves. In an MMO, the story can't evolve around everyone. The story should be the main anchor, and the players should partake in it, but it shouldn't revolve around every single one of them.
You can still be a hero, but not the center of the game universe.
PS: I think it has allready been made official that the first levels in SW:ToR will be single player only.
I love Bioware, they make fantastic Single Player titles. I played them all, from KOTOR to ME to DA. But I think they are approaching this MMORPG from a wrong angle.
I think it's pretty simple. It's due to themepark design. They want to get the player into exciting situations as fast as possible for the sake of maximizing fun. The tradition has always been to accept those heroic tasks to get into those exciting situations through NPCs. It's much easier to justify from a lore perspective why everyone is asking the chosen hero to do all these dangerous things for them (they've heard of you, respect you, and think you're their best hope to accomplish the task) than say, a random farmhand who just took up a sword and was in the right place at the right time.
So, there's a couple ways this can be worked around:
1) Rely less on these staged exciting situations to generate the bulk of your games fun (could be tricky). This would probably mean eliminating larger villians in the story and focusing on political intrigue and/or warfare so players could generate their own exciting situations. That would be sandbox design rather than themepark.
2) Allow the player to get into these exciting situations without direct NPC interaction and make them world events that anyone can see and participate in (such as the dynamic event system in GW2).
Actually there will be 8 main protagonists. Each with two different ways to be the main protagonist of their class story. Then these 8 main protagonists will band together in 4's or more to be the main protagonists in the world story arc.
This is the first time we will have 8 completely different stories in the same game. So not everyone will be doing every quest. And some in the same class will be doing it in up to four differnt ways. With two arch types for each class and a good or evil path, or both for a grey path.
Each SPG of BW had only one story. No matter where you started, the ending was the same. I agree with that. But having 8 stories instead of one will make a difference, along with 2 world stories. One for the Republic and one for the sith empire. And they could end up with PvP in Warzones on planets to have an ever changing balance of power on a given planet.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore