So what you're saying is, guild leaders AREN'T all benevolent dictators? Most guild leaders, like 99% of all leaders since the dawn of time, do it for one (or more) of three reasons - it provides a steady supply of food for their ego/narcissism, it allows them to lord themselves over others, or they can "guarantee" themselves the best loot in the game. I've led, co-led, been an officer, and been a scrub. When I co-led, yeah I felt it was my civic duty when I was selected, but I also knew it would lead me to the best gear. We had a very mature and well-behaved guild, so I never knew the types of problems most people had to deal with, but it never occurred to me that I should be expecting some other sort of benefit beyond everyone else looking up to me and the opportunity to decide who gets what.
Nobody is leading a guild expecting nothing in return. There is far, far too much to gain and far, far too much work involved.
If you think being a guild master will make you get equips faster you are wrong, if you think being a guild master is easy you are wrong, also if you give perks like item and such to only guild masters you are wrong.
Actually, you are wrong; it entirely depends on the guild in question. I have seen well run guilds where the leadership tried to be fair in all dealings; I have also seen guilds where the guild leader used their position as a personal power trip and fawning guild members always tried to make sure the guild leader got the best loot (even if it wasn't their turn to recieve anything).
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Honestly I can't remember ever forming a guild or leading one, or even being in an "officer" position within one. However, I greatly respect those who successfully lead guilds and understand why they take the extra time and effort to do so.
While I personally don't want to lead, I do understand the mentality behind doing so in an MMO.
First, a good typically MMO requires a strong guild in order to achieve highend goals. By forming their own guilds, leaders can help ensure they reach these goals.
Second, in the end aren't MMOs mostly about personal accomplishment ingame? While for some satisfaction comes in the form of uber loot or melting faces in pvp, for others leading guilds serves this purpose.
Third, certain people are just naturally drawn to the position of leader. While many unfortunately just like being "incharge", others are just exceptionally organized and focused people.
My current game, EVE, is certainly an interesting case study for guild leaders. Corps are necessary in order to achieve anything worthwhile. Running a large nullsec alliance is probably one of the most demanding things anyone can do in an MMO. However, those who do so have fame, power and wealth. Of course those are the rare few, but I imagine every CEO in EVE that isn't just running a glorified chat box or collecting tax revenue from noobs is achieving a goal. For example, my CEO started our corp in order to manufacture T3.
Different folks different strokes, while a ADD grinder like me is for the most part happy watching bars fill and clicking buttons in the end we all have our own reasons for playing.
Some great reasons to start a guild there. Or we could just use the FR idea and start one because they are ‘in’. If you do start one just because they are ‘in’ welcome to the learning curve.
A good guild is the icing on the top of the cake of a good MMO, without them MMO’s would be soulless games. Yes they can be a bane, yes they can go horribly wrong, but online life is just like real life in that regard. Most do a decent job and if you have your wits about you can spot the best ones and sign up with one of them.
Tips for finding a good guild:
They have forums.
They have a lower age range policy.
Members names do not include: Dickhead, Boobjob etc.
They have a vision of what they intend to do in the MMO; PvP, roleplaying etc.
Members names do not include: Dickhead, Boobjob etc.
They have a vision of what they intend to do in the MMO; PvP, roleplaying etc.
You have to be interviewed before you can join.
Out of curiousity, shouldn't that be "They have a higher age range policy"? I have typically found that the better guilds I have been in are generall 18+ or 21+; granted age doesn't always equate to maturity, but it helps.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Asherons Call had the best guild system ever. The people who were above you got a % of your experience and in turn you got the protection and other things that came along with joining a guild.
In current MMORPGs most often than not you really dont need a guild and they dont need you so they have been reduced to nothing more than social clubs.
Members names do not include: Dickhead, Boobjob etc.
They have a vision of what they intend to do in the MMO; PvP, roleplaying etc.
You have to be interviewed before you can join.
Out of curiousity, shouldn't that be "They have a higher age range policy"? I have typically found that the better guilds I have been in are generall 18+ or 21+; granted age doesn't always equate to maturity, but it helps.
Not my conversation, but in my oppinion, the best guilds are those that don't get involved in your real life to the point of where they even care about your age. Most of the time, age requirements are, in effect, rather pointless anyway unless the guild actually "requires" members to talk in Ventrillo. In any case you can either lie about your age, as I did, and just tell people you don't have a headset.
There is, of course, nothing terribly wrong with establishing an age requirement as I understand why guilds do it, but it's simply not very effective. That is, an age limit of 16-21 is understandable. On the other hand, I laughed at all the guilds I encountered in EQ2 that advertised that they were mainly age 35 and over (nice way of saying your guild is really age 35+). There's simply no reason, other than the fact that the guild administration is filled with a bunch of incredibly anal and age obsessed people, for a soft age requirement for a guild to be the same as the age requirement for the office of the President of the United States.
On the topic:
I don't believe a guild leader should receive added benefits for leading a guild for almost all the reasons listed above, but my belief is that it simply isn't a good idea to give players any reward for establishing a guild other than the intrinsic joy they give themselves. Potential guild leaders should establish guilds on the basis of creating a model for a successful player community and not simply to obtain some sort of a leader-specific reward. If a game is released which has in-game mechanics in place to reward guild leaders, guilds will be created only for the purpose of reaping the rewards, and you'll be left with a game that has tons of guilds made only for the purpose of exploiting the system.
How can you title an article about guild leadership, "What's In It For Me?". Isn't that completely the wrong attitude for a guild leader to have?
I agree with this statement 10000%. Part of the problem with so many guilds is that so many wannabe guild leaders just want to feel special and entitled. The reward should be in leading and managing the guild and seeing your guild members succeed, you shouldn't need anything from the company itself. If you do need something "extra" to be a guild leader then perhaps leading a guild isn't for you. Being a good leader is often about sacrifice and dedication. Being a good dictator on the other hand, that can be about getting EXTRA for yourself and taking advantage of your subjects.
Corp leaders in EVE will often generate a cult of personality and sense of loyalty towards a good CEO, in a way this is its own reward when hundreds maybe thousands of people put their trust and considerable time and effort in the leaders hands.
EVE also has a second tier of leadership and its the FCs, the fleet commanders who organise fleets and decide the tactics needed to win battles and the stakes can be high if its a fight of control of territory years of effort can easily go down the toilet and even if its just a simple roaming gang a mistake can cost hundreds of millions of in game money, several days worth of grinding or other money making activity to replace the losses.
Good FCs earn fanatical followers who will have a fierce loyalty, fleet members will often buy FCs ships or give them loot as a more tangible reward. EVE is also unique in the way that you must band together to succeed in many respects, you will never earn your own space for any length of time if your a bad leader and to hold a large alliance of thousands of players together takes a lot of skill, both at managing people and the huge logistical and admin challenges in a game as complex as EVE.
There is also a flip side to this its very easy to run a small corp as a group of friends but even this can run into trouble, many small corps are unprepared when something unexpected happens. Many corps implode when they get a wardec or a corp thief runs away with assets or someone joins the corp to cause mischief like ganking fellow corp members in the middle of a mining op and stuff like this can be a problem for people but imo the randomness and complexity of the game and the depth of player interaction is what makes EVE great and succeeding as a leader in this kind of environment must surely be its own reward.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
I meant a good guild will have a minimum age, sorry for the confusion. What age you set depends on the MMO and where you are pitching your age range for the guild. 35+ sounds high but if thats what you want and you get takers then fine.
The best reward from being a guild/clan leader is the people skills you can use in the real world like how Skelton mentioned in her article. Thanks to being a guild leader or officer i'm a favored manager at work.
I've seen more in real life thanks to 7 years guild leading than most dying war veterans can claim to have seen.
I saw "drama" mentioned above....At age 16 I lead a guild in a free to play asian game run by IGG. For over a year I led 50 noobs against over 1600 geared players and moderators just so we could stay in the game.
Eventually the stress got so bad, a woman broke up with her boyfriend on my teamspeak. (an adult woman) Crying about how she loved my guild and what we do but she can't handle it anymore. Soon after her boyfriend left.
I've lost a good deal of my hair at age 21 due almost exclusively to 7 years of clan leading. I went to bed at age 16 waiting for the adults on the other side of the game to find my house through the moderators of the forums. I knew that if they could, they would kill me and my whole family.
How did I know this? Because all I heard about were neighbors of my guild members fighting each other in real life in the street, ex-military men were threatening me over the internet for leading a friendly guild. My hands would shake over the keyboard when we went to battle. People lost thousands of dollars in identity theft and credit card scams....
And you want to tell me that guild leaders are the cause of problems? Those were moderators I was fighting. At age 16 I played a free asian video game and was willing to die at any moment because I didn't feel anyone had the right to threaten me out of a video game and because I loved my guild.
And we guild leaders are the problem? That guy who was the first to respond to this article is a self-righteous pikey. Go get ridden by a horse sweet heart.
As for the the author, thank you for acknowledging what I've wondered if anyone knew. As far as I'm concerned your article is appreciated even if i slightly disagree with the methodology.
Comments
So what you're saying is, guild leaders AREN'T all benevolent dictators? Most guild leaders, like 99% of all leaders since the dawn of time, do it for one (or more) of three reasons - it provides a steady supply of food for their ego/narcissism, it allows them to lord themselves over others, or they can "guarantee" themselves the best loot in the game. I've led, co-led, been an officer, and been a scrub. When I co-led, yeah I felt it was my civic duty when I was selected, but I also knew it would lead me to the best gear. We had a very mature and well-behaved guild, so I never knew the types of problems most people had to deal with, but it never occurred to me that I should be expecting some other sort of benefit beyond everyone else looking up to me and the opportunity to decide who gets what.
Nobody is leading a guild expecting nothing in return. There is far, far too much to gain and far, far too much work involved.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
Actually, you are wrong; it entirely depends on the guild in question. I have seen well run guilds where the leadership tried to be fair in all dealings; I have also seen guilds where the guild leader used their position as a personal power trip and fawning guild members always tried to make sure the guild leader got the best loot (even if it wasn't their turn to recieve anything).
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Honestly I can't remember ever forming a guild or leading one, or even being in an "officer" position within one. However, I greatly respect those who successfully lead guilds and understand why they take the extra time and effort to do so.
While I personally don't want to lead, I do understand the mentality behind doing so in an MMO.
First, a good typically MMO requires a strong guild in order to achieve highend goals. By forming their own guilds, leaders can help ensure they reach these goals.
Second, in the end aren't MMOs mostly about personal accomplishment ingame? While for some satisfaction comes in the form of uber loot or melting faces in pvp, for others leading guilds serves this purpose.
Third, certain people are just naturally drawn to the position of leader. While many unfortunately just like being "incharge", others are just exceptionally organized and focused people.
My current game, EVE, is certainly an interesting case study for guild leaders. Corps are necessary in order to achieve anything worthwhile. Running a large nullsec alliance is probably one of the most demanding things anyone can do in an MMO. However, those who do so have fame, power and wealth. Of course those are the rare few, but I imagine every CEO in EVE that isn't just running a glorified chat box or collecting tax revenue from noobs is achieving a goal. For example, my CEO started our corp in order to manufacture T3.
Different folks different strokes, while a ADD grinder like me is for the most part happy watching bars fill and clicking buttons in the end we all have our own reasons for playing.
Some great reasons to start a guild there. Or we could just use the FR idea and start one because they are ‘in’. If you do start one just because they are ‘in’ welcome to the learning curve.
A good guild is the icing on the top of the cake of a good MMO, without them MMO’s would be soulless games. Yes they can be a bane, yes they can go horribly wrong, but online life is just like real life in that regard. Most do a decent job and if you have your wits about you can spot the best ones and sign up with one of them.
Tips for finding a good guild:
They have forums.
They have a lower age range policy.
Members names do not include: Dickhead, Boobjob etc.
They have a vision of what they intend to do in the MMO; PvP, roleplaying etc.
You have to be interviewed before you can join.
Out of curiousity, shouldn't that be "They have a higher age range policy"? I have typically found that the better guilds I have been in are generall 18+ or 21+; granted age doesn't always equate to maturity, but it helps.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Asherons Call had the best guild system ever. The people who were above you got a % of your experience and in turn you got the protection and other things that came along with joining a guild.
In current MMORPGs most often than not you really dont need a guild and they dont need you so they have been reduced to nothing more than social clubs.
My gaming blog
Not my conversation, but in my oppinion, the best guilds are those that don't get involved in your real life to the point of where they even care about your age. Most of the time, age requirements are, in effect, rather pointless anyway unless the guild actually "requires" members to talk in Ventrillo. In any case you can either lie about your age, as I did, and just tell people you don't have a headset.
There is, of course, nothing terribly wrong with establishing an age requirement as I understand why guilds do it, but it's simply not very effective. That is, an age limit of 16-21 is understandable. On the other hand, I laughed at all the guilds I encountered in EQ2 that advertised that they were mainly age 35 and over (nice way of saying your guild is really age 35+). There's simply no reason, other than the fact that the guild administration is filled with a bunch of incredibly anal and age obsessed people, for a soft age requirement for a guild to be the same as the age requirement for the office of the President of the United States.
On the topic:
I don't believe a guild leader should receive added benefits for leading a guild for almost all the reasons listed above, but my belief is that it simply isn't a good idea to give players any reward for establishing a guild other than the intrinsic joy they give themselves. Potential guild leaders should establish guilds on the basis of creating a model for a successful player community and not simply to obtain some sort of a leader-specific reward. If a game is released which has in-game mechanics in place to reward guild leaders, guilds will be created only for the purpose of reaping the rewards, and you'll be left with a game that has tons of guilds made only for the purpose of exploiting the system.
THATS MINUS 50 DKP FOR THIS ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!
How can you title an article about guild leadership, "What's In It For Me?". Isn't that completely the wrong attitude for a guild leader to have?
I agree with this statement 10000%. Part of the problem with so many guilds is that so many wannabe guild leaders just want to feel special and entitled. The reward should be in leading and managing the guild and seeing your guild members succeed, you shouldn't need anything from the company itself. If you do need something "extra" to be a guild leader then perhaps leading a guild isn't for you. Being a good leader is often about sacrifice and dedication. Being a good dictator on the other hand, that can be about getting EXTRA for yourself and taking advantage of your subjects.
Corp leaders in EVE will often generate a cult of personality and sense of loyalty towards a good CEO, in a way this is its own reward when hundreds maybe thousands of people put their trust and considerable time and effort in the leaders hands.
EVE also has a second tier of leadership and its the FCs, the fleet commanders who organise fleets and decide the tactics needed to win battles and the stakes can be high if its a fight of control of territory years of effort can easily go down the toilet and even if its just a simple roaming gang a mistake can cost hundreds of millions of in game money, several days worth of grinding or other money making activity to replace the losses.
Good FCs earn fanatical followers who will have a fierce loyalty, fleet members will often buy FCs ships or give them loot as a more tangible reward. EVE is also unique in the way that you must band together to succeed in many respects, you will never earn your own space for any length of time if your a bad leader and to hold a large alliance of thousands of players together takes a lot of skill, both at managing people and the huge logistical and admin challenges in a game as complex as EVE.
There is also a flip side to this its very easy to run a small corp as a group of friends but even this can run into trouble, many small corps are unprepared when something unexpected happens. Many corps implode when they get a wardec or a corp thief runs away with assets or someone joins the corp to cause mischief like ganking fellow corp members in the middle of a mining op and stuff like this can be a problem for people but imo the randomness and complexity of the game and the depth of player interaction is what makes EVE great and succeeding as a leader in this kind of environment must surely be its own reward.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I meant a good guild will have a minimum age, sorry for the confusion. What age you set depends on the MMO and where you are pitching your age range for the guild. 35+ sounds high but if thats what you want and you get takers then fine.
The best reward from being a guild/clan leader is the people skills you can use in the real world like how Skelton mentioned in her article. Thanks to being a guild leader or officer i'm a favored manager at work.
I've seen more in real life thanks to 7 years guild leading than most dying war veterans can claim to have seen.
I saw "drama" mentioned above....At age 16 I lead a guild in a free to play asian game run by IGG. For over a year I led 50 noobs against over 1600 geared players and moderators just so we could stay in the game.
Eventually the stress got so bad, a woman broke up with her boyfriend on my teamspeak. (an adult woman) Crying about how she loved my guild and what we do but she can't handle it anymore. Soon after her boyfriend left.
I've lost a good deal of my hair at age 21 due almost exclusively to 7 years of clan leading. I went to bed at age 16 waiting for the adults on the other side of the game to find my house through the moderators of the forums. I knew that if they could, they would kill me and my whole family.
How did I know this? Because all I heard about were neighbors of my guild members fighting each other in real life in the street, ex-military men were threatening me over the internet for leading a friendly guild. My hands would shake over the keyboard when we went to battle. People lost thousands of dollars in identity theft and credit card scams....
And you want to tell me that guild leaders are the cause of problems? Those were moderators I was fighting. At age 16 I played a free asian video game and was willing to die at any moment because I didn't feel anyone had the right to threaten me out of a video game and because I loved my guild.
And we guild leaders are the problem? That guy who was the first to respond to this article is a self-righteous pikey. Go get ridden by a horse sweet heart.
As for the the author, thank you for acknowledging what I've wondered if anyone knew. As far as I'm concerned your article is appreciated even if i slightly disagree with the methodology.
Thanks for the article.