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Whats your thoughts on PvP Gear?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I was just reading a thread on another forum discussing the effects of PvP Gear/PvP Stats that separates the PvP and PvE itemization.
But does such a system destroy the game, or could separating the gear actually benefit the game?
I know in WoW for example, Blizzard added Resilience stat to the game to grant PvPer's their own itemization to give them the edge over PvE players in PvP.
But I still have seen complaints against it.
Some complaints about PvP itemization include:
*PvP Gear being useful in PvE and easier to get than its PvE gear counterpart.
*PvE players fight to gain gear, so they can PvP. If their gear has no effect in PvP, then that would make their progression pointless.
------------
But what are your thoughts on PvP Itemization in MMORPGs?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
This.
Why do MMOs keep trying to shoe horn in PvP into MMOs that clearly are not balanced for it?
I agree. Though many seem to enjoy gear grinding and would howl and complain if it weren't incorporated in some way into the PvP of any modern MMOG, I find it unbalanced and frustrating. I like to get better at games as I learn to play them. I don't find prescribed stat increases to be much fun to fight for, personally.
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If you are using WOW as an example, PVP gear is good. It's not about getting an edge over PVE players.
People in top end PVE gear can 2 shot anyone in PVE gear. A Spriest can just run around and pop SWP on everyone he is within range and they die if he's in full T10 with a good weapon and trinkets. PVP gear reduces the damage and increases survivability to allow for more thought out battles (talking arena).
Not everyone in WOW PVP, and arena battles with both teams in full PVP Gear can make for some epic fights (if you are in the pilot seat)
In WOW"s case, PVP gear is good.
In AOC pvp gear is stupid because you can get it by mining and being in a top end guild regardless of skill or time. Seeing people in full Rank9-10 with only a dozen pvp kills is kinda depressing. So in AOC's case, just by implimentation and design, pvp gear is bad.
I actually thought the seperate gear system in WoW was a pretty good idea. It's far from perfectly implemented, but the idea seemed sound to me. Rewards oriented to what you do to earn those rewards.
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There should be no pvp gear it ruins the game, gear should be gear no mater how you get it.. WoW's resiliance ruined that game. Why should someone that earned their gear from pve not be able to deffend him/herself while questing and doing the usual pve. Now granted there should be rewards for your work at pvp as well, may it be gear or tokens to get gear.
The only reason resiliance was introduced is so you play the game longer, it makes 2 grinds you have to do if you want to be able to defend yourself during questing.
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But wouldnt that same rule apply to the new player had there not been any PvE gear system? PvE players would pwn new players as well using your example
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Its a bandaid on a broken system. If the game was made with PvP in mind, instead of slapped on to the Borb that is WoW, it would work better, but it doesn't. No one plays WoW seriously for the PvP.
The only thing that made WoW fun for me was the people, and Ventrilo so I could talk to them.
WoW is not centered around PvE or PvP [though PvE is much more thought out]. The game is centered around gear.
The guild is going on a raid. What character do you want me to bring? Bring your caster. How do you want me to gear him for the raid? Damage.
Next guild raid. What character do you want me to bring? Bring the same caster. How do you want me to gear him for the raid? Use your other set of gear.
Sometimes wear one set of gear and keep the other set in your back-pack so you can switch up if needed.
Same character wants to PvP? Re-gear AND retrain.
That gets old.
You want to join our guild? What kind of gear do you have? Oh, sorry, we can't take you, your gear is not good enough.
Are you in a guild full of people with lower level gear? Want to make your way to better gear? Sorry, no room for you or your friends to join our raid, your gear is not high enough.
Sounds fun, right?
I didn't think so either.
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I wouldn't say it's the death of the genre but I don't believe in pvp gear. Or raid gear.
Gear should be gear and should be useable in any part of the game.
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So someone who does a lot of PvE and has gear is not in the same shoes against someone who just started to do PvE?
Do people who only wish to solely PvE feel that they are better players then PvP only players?
Do you not want people to have options on how to attain gear?
I think it can work fine in a game, if the game doesn't let one side have a huge advantage over the other in ease of getting gear, gear level, or how much gear you can get.
Completely agree here. PvP gear is unnecessary for a game that does end game content properly. When your end game is focused around doing things to acquire more abilities/skills rather than be about obtaining better gear, there is no need to split gear up and everyone gets the same kind of advantage. DAoC did it right I think in that respect simply because the skills you obtained in both PvE and PvP worked well in both situations.
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Ruins the game and PvP. You should never be PvPing for points or gear, you should be PvPing because you want to win the fight, or you're fighting for something in game.
When you have points systems and PvP gear, you go around PvPing for those reasons, and it takes a large amount of the thrill out. Plus I've never seen a successful game with PvP gear/rewards...Lineage series, EVE, DAoC, UO, etc...all did not have PvP gear or currency point systems like that...The only successful game with PvP point systems is WoW, and that's because the game is largely PvE based and not PvP...PvP in WoW is only a secondary thing, it's secluded from other aspects of the game and most people who play WoW do not exclusively do PvP...that would be like playing a watered down shooter.
Plus another thing separate PvP gear does is require you to have 2 different gear sets/builds if you want to do both, which is a huge downer imo. Like many people said gear should be gear. I really like Lineage 2's system how the same pieces of gear can be dropped from raid bosses (high chance), mobs (very low chance), or crafted. The same piece of gear comes 3 different ways, no need to worry about raid sets, pvp sets, etc...However those 3 methods in Lineage 2 do have their problems (ie: low droprates or 40% chance to fail your craft).
Its just a band aid on what is a broken system in WoW. WoW should have included PvP in some form in its initial development to do otherwise tends to make a PvP system that is poor compared to those "lesser" MMO's that actually put some effort into PvP from the start.
EvE online is a good example of where PvP is woven well in all areas of the game. PvE people and crafters are the lifeblood for PvP [Cheaper and more available gear] and PvP is the lifeblood for crafters and traders [all items are destructable even named stuff fueling demand].
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
PvP gear means more options to the playing style of the players.
So those against it are actually saying less options and choices of playing styles is good. Laughs...
The old reasoning of the old raider whiners.
Actually Blizzard introduced great PvP gear in crafted form on level 78. Magnificent idea to have crafted gear for the niche market of PvP combat below max level.
I hear Blizzard will introduce further crafted PvP gear in CATA and will up it with each content patch.
Another blow to the silly comments of the usual WOW haters in here.
With the gear changer I switch gear in 1 second. And being dual spec, yes indeed I have 4 sets on me all the time.
If it wasn't for the PvP I would have quit the boring raiding game within 6 months.
And no there is no other MMO out there with the same fast responsive and unhampered PvP controls of WOW.
The only game I've played where I've seen pvp gear done right is EvE.
There is no bad gear, only different gear
Everyone has access to the same gear
Gear is easy to obtain; you buy it, almost always from a crafter.
You risk your gear. If you die you lose your gear. But regearing isn't that painful (see above)
So basically gear is important but it's not an integral part of your character. Gear is not your character, gear is gear, exactly like it should be.
I'll be honest the only game I have to go on for this is WoW. Personally I liked PvP more in vanilla when there was no resilience and you could get awesome rewards from reputation that you could technically use in pvp or pve, I guess the more stamina they generally gave could be good for both. My main gripe is p[robably that resilience is a stat designed solely for pvp, I liked when stats were for everything and gear could cater towards pve or pvp by just adjusting stats, without being at a great disadvantage in one or the other.
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UO, pre-AOS was like that as well. Systems like UO's and EVE's allow people to tailor their character gear to their playstyle and not try to fit how they want to play within the confines of what is allowed for their character. The easy accessbility of gear allso meant that Pvpers could spend their time PvPing and not have to engage in gameplay they are not interested in just to get what they need to PvP.
A big key to the two systems is inventory space. With that level of diversity and flexibility, it's imperative to have enough storage space for all the equipment players will want to have access to for each scenario.
In UO, I had gear for general PvP, PKing, mage battles, town fighting, even gear for PvP in specific dungeons. If I lost a set, I had chests full of backups ready at my character's house.
... then Age of Shadows happened and gear became an IWIN button like in WOW and most other common MMOs.
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You mean those people going for the tournaments are all for nothing? I highly doubt you can last 5 sec against smoe of those top teams.
Very much this.
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In WoW, sure there's people who play for the pvp.
In the larger community WoW, and MMOs in general, aren't really viewed favorably at least as far as e-sports go. Games which play up the persistant consquences of pvp are the ones that are usually viewed most favorably (and remembered the longest - UO and DAoC still get mentioned continually in the context of pvp despite the fact that they've been out of the mainstream for many years now).
I voted good for the genre. But that only loosely applies to the game I am playing at the moment.
I dont like being forced into doing something I dont want to do. That being, PVE Raids. I can get decent gear on my time and not have to worry about a 2nd job, raiding.
But I think it depends on the game and how much emphasis and importance is put on gear stats,
My biggest fear is to see some raiding scrub who cares nothing for pvp, come into pvp in his ULTIMATE GOD SET and blow everything up. And then blab to all his friends and tell everyone over chat how good he is when NONE OF IT WAS HIM AND ALL OF IT WAS HIS GEAR.
I enjoy pvp, so when I have time to play what do I do? I pvp. I turn my effort and time spent in PvP to get gear for pvp.
Pve'rs do the same thing.
They enjoy PVE, so they raid. They turn there effort and time spent into getting gear for pve.
In particular, in the game I play, the only ones I hear cry about this are the Raiders that WOULD LIKE TO BE GOD IN PVP.
I knew I was bound to find someone I completely disagree with. Hi there Dark, I think your wrong.
Your last point about having to have another set of gear for questing is down right laughable. NO ONE in wow, whether it be on a pve server or a pvp server has different sets of gear for questing.
And your points about resilience. Again I disagree partially.
For starters, how long have you played WoW? Because I have played since release. Now back then, people who ran MC and later BWL were GODS in pvp because of there gear. If you werent in a top end raiding guild running end game content there was no way you were going to get good gear.
The difference between the blue geared folks and the purple epic folks was UNREAL. In PvP they would absolutely destroy people. Back then Pom Pyro was a 3 button Mage spec that would absolutely destroy people. The damage was getting way out of control and fights werent lasting long enough to show any type of skill. Thats where resilience came in. When people dont die in 2 shots, fights last long enough to have some decent fights.
Now I am not a huge fan of resilience, but I like that there are two sets of gear because I as an avid pvp'er can do what I want to. I like to pvp so I pvp and get gear. Why if I like to pvp would I go run dungeon after dungeon, hating it the whole time just so I could pvp? Thats paramount to TORTURE.
Besides it usually works out well. If you have the time to raid and to PvP GREAT. If you dont, just pick what you like and run with it. If you like both and dont have the time, well I guess that sucks but it prolly means your playing too much WoW and need to get outside and see some sunshine!
I didn't vote in the poll as the options didn't fit my actual opinion. Basically I think that any gear based games are "bad" for the genre. I really don't enjoy the gear grind doing dungeon after dungeon to get some gear so I can do some other dungeon the gear up to do the third dungeon. I understand the need for character progression and sense of accomplishment when you get a reward but the gear grind can get out of control. And in this sense PvP gear is as well "bad" for the genre.
But if you have a gear based game I think PvP gear is a good solution. If PvP fights ens up in "who can nuke the others fastest, we got 3 seconds before they have nuked us" it's no longer about skill. It's about spiking as much as possible and having the best gear for spiking. Resillience allows us to slow down the fights and make use of acual skill rather than nuking and I think that is good. I should probably mention that I haven't played much PvP and this is based off what I have experienced mostly from the sideline.
Benefits for each type of items, pvp or pve needs to be specific for that type of play. So no bonuses form your uber pvp set in pve. Getting gear should be incremental and end with the top stuff only being obtainable in groups, keep raids spring to mind.