Although I am deadset against most argument that people give for jumping/falling/z-coordinates, the situation maddbomber described does sound like a definite flaw in the game which needs to be addressed. However, I am inclined to think that what's actually happening is:
a.) That is not a flaw but a puzzle in which you are supposed to find your way down to that area without leaving the leve area, and he failed to figure it out. The leve, then would be not just a test of your ability to fight but also a test of your knowledge of the surrounding area. Or...
b.) S-E already knows about that problem due to the beta testing, and has addressed it or is in the process of addressing it. As quite a few others have stated, the later stages of the beta are intended mostly for data mining purposes moreso than bug hunting. If that leve is unfinishable due to the topography, S-E is definitely going to notice that there's a guildleve with a 100% failure rate. In fact, even if it's just random chance that the mob sometimes appears in an unreachable area, they're still going to notice the increased number of failures on that level or at that node.
I actually got this GL last night as well and failed it in the same manner. I logged off immediately afterwards to cool off because I got really agitated from the GL aborting. After logging back in I looked at the area where the last ram was supposed to be and noticed that there is a cave in the area that leads to a small ledge near the crabs. I do believe this is where that last ram actually spawns. This cave is to the south of the path that takes you back to town. I could be wrong though since I couldn't verify it but it definitely seems like it would spawn at that area rather than near those crabs.
I miss jumping less than I thought I would after playing, most places are made decently well so it's not even an issue. All they need to do is take this BS about failing a leve because you aren't in the area/running the right way. It's dumb. I've failed two recently because of it myself.
One was a level 10 leve to kill stray dodos. The last one ran in the "leve target is fleeing" way, when he gets to the spot he'll spawn 1 or 2 more. This was one of the first times I had seen that so after slowly losing ground, I put my weapon away, then continued on farther back but running faster. Suddenly levequest failed. The monster was on my screen the whole time until I randomly failed it and it disappeared.
Second time was for a level 20 leve. I had just gotten to that area for the first time ever and the circles were in weird spots out in the wilderness, I knew there was an underground cave system but without knowing its map(though it does popup once you get down there) I thought the quest might be in the caves. I went down, got 40 feet in when I checked the map and saw the cave didn't intersect the circles, started running out and I failed. I had like 27 minutes left, why the hell should you fail me when I've only spent 2-3 minutes looking for the area?
Cernan; Thank you for the posts, you spoke my mind in a less hostile way than I could have.
As for beta bugs.... I got into beta from that Eorzeapedia beta contest and the wife got in from one of the German give aways. SE does not allow us to post on the beta boards (only read) so I can't post on the section they set up asking you to post bugs in.
To the poster a couple of spots up from this, I found that cave too, at least one similar to what you describe in the area. Since we were already so far south (the second time) we decided to explore a bit. That cave has a skeleton guy in it, yeah, 2 shots dead. I had just read a beta post on how 95% of the mobs don't agro you. I found one that did, lol.
I'm adjusting my OP a little to make my frustration with the system clear. The reason I went to the WTF you can't jump is simple. While questing and you want to get someplace to kill a mob that is right there you hit a wall of frustration because you can't jump down a seemingly small drop to get to it. Instead you must go all the way around. While going around you see these little dips without a rocky texture and so you try to go down them and it doesn't work.
If they do not want jumping in the game, place mobs where you don't need to jump to get there. Get rid of range mechanics on GL (or as some other posters have pointed out make them not abandon when you get to the next area). Design your maps to be clear on where you can and can't go. To be fair, this area is a mountain area, so I understand what they are doing, but be more drastic. I should not come to a drop that is less than half my character's height (I'm a human) and not be able to go down it. If you want something to be impassable, make it look impassable.
The las Ram from that leve is in the cave, there is no bug in the levequest, just a player misunderstood with the map, you see the big red dot translucent it is out of your altitude.
The las Ram from that leve is in the cave, there is no bug in the levequest, just a player misunderstood with the map, you see the big red dot translucent it is out of your altitude.
We will have to give it a shot when the game goes open beta but I trust that a simple oversight on our part lead us down this road.
The OP has been updated. To be clear, my issue is that there are areas you feel you should be able to go but the lack of jump prevent you from doing so. They should make the height / slope difference enough that you would not think you could go that way.
There is a level 1 leve (GL or Quest) that spawns the mob in a ravine. To get to the ravine you must travel south a ways and then come down it from the south heading north. This causes you to enter the next area and that abandons your GL.
Because this game does not have vertical movement there are extra design considerations needed.
Required mobs should not spawn in such a way that getting to them abandons your GL.
Granted this is most likely a bug or oversight, but it did make me think further about this topic (the lack of vertical mechanic in a game is no issue with me as long as the game is designed so that you don't feel the need for vertical movement).
The map should be designed so that the player does not feel the need for vertical movement to get around.
If there is a height difference it should be drastic enough that the player would not consider it as a viable route. It is very frustrating to come up on a dip in the ground (less than half the height of a human character) and not be able to pass. Instead it should be at least the height of the character.
Textures also need to play a part. If you have all rocky textures on a height difference and then add an area of grass it makes the player think that must be a path when its really an invisible wall of frustration.
A climb option for some areas would be of benifit (something to add later in the game maybe).
Say you come up on a cliff, you could go to your menu screen and select climb down (kinda how you use the lift in the city). This would be more for flavor. Huh, they do have vertical movement in this game!
I should add that games that do have vertical movement still suffer from frustration problems. There are areas that you try and get to that your pixels show you able to get to but some invisable wall keeps you from getting to them even with vertical movement. Again, poor design.
My OP has been quoted below so you can see where I accidently fed the trolls.
Look at map; follow black lines to the one entrance to where the mountain goat thing is.
Quest abandoned? But I just found my way to the mountain goat guy and I have 25 minutes left! WTF....
Seriously, if you have two conflicting mechanics then you need to fix one of them. Going out of range for your quest because you couldn't just jump down some rocks is retarded. Get rid of the out of range or let people jump/fall.
Edit:
I should add that when your quest gets abondoned or your fail it, you don't just go restart it. Say hello to 48 hours of frustration (or doing something else).
So you have played it?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Yes I have played it... I say waiting for open beta because closed ends soon and I doubt we'll get that leve again before then.
I forgot to give honorable mention to the SE fanboys who see any negative post about thier baby and try to dismiss it. If you think a post is trolling, don't feed the troll. If you have nothing of value to add to a topic then don't post. If its not something you would say to my face in person then don't say it. Just because you can does not mean you should.
I should add that I've tried WoW a couple of times as RL friends play it. Its not a game for me or the wife. We did enjoy EQ2 for a couple of years and WAR at the begining.
I WILL BUY THIS GAME JUST FOR THE LACK OF JUMPING.
There. If you want bunny hopping, and people looking like asses, go play 99% of the other MMO's out there. Im REALLY Glad I dont gata watch that crap here.
99% of statistics are made up on the spot...
Skieve thanks for at least interacting. I really wish the SE community were less hostile though. I've found the general population of some games to be very childish and leet while SE's seems to be at the other end, too wise to tollerate other people and leet. You fit the mold well, but at least you tried.
Although I am deadset against most argument that people give for jumping/falling/z-coordinates, the situation maddbomber described does sound like a definite flaw in the game which needs to be addressed. However, I am inclined to think that what's actually happening is:
a.) That is not a flaw but a puzzle in which you are supposed to find your way down to that area without leaving the leve area, and he failed to figure it out. The leve, then would be not just a test of your ability to fight but also a test of your knowledge of the surrounding area. Or...
b.) S-E already knows about that problem due to the beta testing, and has addressed it or is in the process of addressing it. As quite a few others have stated, the later stages of the beta are intended mostly for data mining purposes moreso than bug hunting. If that leve is unfinishable due to the topography, S-E is definitely going to notice that there's a guildleve with a 100% failure rate. In fact, even if it's just random chance that the mob sometimes appears in an unreachable area, they're still going to notice the increased number of failures on that level or at that node.
I hope you're being sarcastic coz otherwise it's blatant denial.
Option b makes up for it, but still option a ... u gotta be joking.
Is okay man, but puting jump/no jump to the side. You have to understand a few thins.
1 - There will be no jumping past emotes.
2 - Posting here makes no diference of the outcome of the game
3 - The current state of the beta is BAD, really bad. So when you concerne yourself with a problem with a single quest it just really blows my mind away.
Nothin is posted in a bad way, i just dont think this leads to anythin besides making people discouraged to even try the game, when is at an early stage, and have , as im sure you have seen as well , so much to offer if lite thins like what you so elocuently pointed out gets fixed.
Im not sure why you can´t post on the feedback section of the beta-forum , no idea people couldnt tbh.Problably good to ask around on other sites so your able to, since SE never been good at comunicating with the fans.Problably the best way to toss your 2 cents is to send feedback on the matter.
edit; as for SE fans being such an asses, well i fall more into that category, but is not becouse im a ff fan, rather becouse i post on MMORPG.com and other forums that made me be this way. To be honest the FF player base is way nicer than most of the fans that do post here.Theres just a minority of fans who do actually post/read mmorpg.com or any forums in particular past a few selected hardcore players ( sadly i do fall into this category). The site doesnt even give an adecuate review on FFXIV to start with. is not MMORPG market aparently.
I post here because it is a good place to vent and get information (other beta players post here as well). I have already learned to look for a red dot next time I head south for this quest and I better understand why it abandons.
I don't care about jumping, I simply care about game designs that cause frustration.
As said above, no, posting here makes no difference in the outcome of the game (unless a "real" beta tester reposts some of it in the beta forums), but that is not why I post.
I don't consider it my job to hide details of a game that may discourage other people from playing it. I will say that we have 2 CE versions on pre-order and that little lamb is not enough to cause us to cancle them.
I read your frustration on this one little problem as compared to all the other problems. Thing is, there are already a lot of posts about them. Sure there is a lot of jumping posts but they are all extreme posts (at least the ones I read). This was more of a practical look of the effects of no jumping in game design.
I think we both came off as hostile but I'm glad things are on track. As said above my op has been changed to try and not cause all the hate from title alone.
OP since your character is classless couldn't you pull it with some range weapon or some spell?
I know this doesn't solve it but isn't it possible?
The problem is solved. But to answer your question, no. This mob would be out of range. In the early levels the reach of ranged spells is much more limited than in other games (I'm not sure about bows as I've not used them). If it was in range it would work, maybe lol. I was able to attack a rat through height difference and the rat did run around (took maybe 7 or 8 seconds for him to reach me), and while he was running around he was out of my range. In this case it would take maybe a minute for him to reach me and I'm not sure how range or time factor into when an encounter ends or not.
Cernan; Thank you for the posts, you spoke my mind in a less hostile way than I could have.
As for beta bugs.... I got into beta from that Eorzeapedia beta contest and the wife got in from one of the German give aways. SE does not allow us to post on the beta boards (only read) so I can't post on the section they set up asking you to post bugs in.
To the poster a couple of spots up from this, I found that cave too, at least one similar to what you describe in the area. Since we were already so far south (the second time) we decided to explore a bit. That cave has a skeleton guy in it, yeah, 2 shots dead. I had just read a beta post on how 95% of the mobs don't agro you. I found one that did, lol.
I'm adjusting my OP a little to make my frustration with the system clear. The reason I went to the WTF you can't jump is simple. While questing and you want to get someplace to kill a mob that is right there you hit a wall of frustration because you can't jump down a seemingly small drop to get to it. Instead you must go all the way around. While going around you see these little dips without a rocky texture and so you try to go down them and it doesn't work.
If they do not want jumping in the game, place mobs where you don't need to jump to get there. Get rid of range mechanics on GL (or as some other posters have pointed out make them not abandon when you get to the next area). Design your maps to be clear on where you can and can't go. To be fair, this area is a mountain area, so I understand what they are doing, but be more drastic. I should not come to a drop that is less than half my character's height (I'm a human) and not be able to go down it. If you want something to be impassable, make it look impassable.
With kind regards,
~ Madd B
As you say, it may be due to the fact that this is a mountain zone with uneven rocky terrain... but even so, this is a mistake that I thought they would avoid. Most people on the No Jumping side of the debate have taken this as a given, as it is a pretty reasonable assumption to make. After all, it is downright stupid to assume that the designers would put up long waist-high fences all over the place that take 10 minutes to run around. For what, just to call attention to the fact that you can't jump? Ridiculous. (Although obviously that has not stopped a great number of idiots from their Fence Prophecizing.)
But this sounds like at least one instance where the lack of jumping/falling is evident because of somewhere that you clearly want to go and think you should be able to go to but cannot. And it's probably a bit too late for them to consider changing that spot. I can only hope — for the sake of people with less tolerance than me — that the rest of the world doesn't have many places like this.
Your concern is legitimate and I'm sorry that people on both sides are crashing your thread without considering the specifics of your complaint.
Comments
couldnt have said it much better than this
I actually got this GL last night as well and failed it in the same manner. I logged off immediately afterwards to cool off because I got really agitated from the GL aborting. After logging back in I looked at the area where the last ram was supposed to be and noticed that there is a cave in the area that leads to a small ledge near the crabs. I do believe this is where that last ram actually spawns. This cave is to the south of the path that takes you back to town. I could be wrong though since I couldn't verify it but it definitely seems like it would spawn at that area rather than near those crabs.
I miss jumping less than I thought I would after playing, most places are made decently well so it's not even an issue. All they need to do is take this BS about failing a leve because you aren't in the area/running the right way. It's dumb. I've failed two recently because of it myself.
One was a level 10 leve to kill stray dodos. The last one ran in the "leve target is fleeing" way, when he gets to the spot he'll spawn 1 or 2 more. This was one of the first times I had seen that so after slowly losing ground, I put my weapon away, then continued on farther back but running faster. Suddenly levequest failed. The monster was on my screen the whole time until I randomly failed it and it disappeared.
Second time was for a level 20 leve. I had just gotten to that area for the first time ever and the circles were in weird spots out in the wilderness, I knew there was an underground cave system but without knowing its map(though it does popup once you get down there) I thought the quest might be in the caves. I went down, got 40 feet in when I checked the map and saw the cave didn't intersect the circles, started running out and I failed. I had like 27 minutes left, why the hell should you fail me when I've only spent 2-3 minutes looking for the area?
Cernan; Thank you for the posts, you spoke my mind in a less hostile way than I could have.
As for beta bugs.... I got into beta from that Eorzeapedia beta contest and the wife got in from one of the German give aways. SE does not allow us to post on the beta boards (only read) so I can't post on the section they set up asking you to post bugs in.
To the poster a couple of spots up from this, I found that cave too, at least one similar to what you describe in the area. Since we were already so far south (the second time) we decided to explore a bit. That cave has a skeleton guy in it, yeah, 2 shots dead. I had just read a beta post on how 95% of the mobs don't agro you. I found one that did, lol.
I'm adjusting my OP a little to make my frustration with the system clear. The reason I went to the WTF you can't jump is simple. While questing and you want to get someplace to kill a mob that is right there you hit a wall of frustration because you can't jump down a seemingly small drop to get to it. Instead you must go all the way around. While going around you see these little dips without a rocky texture and so you try to go down them and it doesn't work.
If they do not want jumping in the game, place mobs where you don't need to jump to get there. Get rid of range mechanics on GL (or as some other posters have pointed out make them not abandon when you get to the next area). Design your maps to be clear on where you can and can't go. To be fair, this area is a mountain area, so I understand what they are doing, but be more drastic. I should not come to a drop that is less than half my character's height (I'm a human) and not be able to go down it. If you want something to be impassable, make it look impassable.
With kind regards,
~ Madd B
The las Ram from that leve is in the cave, there is no bug in the levequest, just a player misunderstood with the map, you see the big red dot translucent it is out of your altitude.
There is no knowledge that is no power.
We will have to give it a shot when the game goes open beta but I trust that a simple oversight on our part lead us down this road.
The OP has been updated. To be clear, my issue is that there are areas you feel you should be able to go but the lack of jump prevent you from doing so. They should make the height / slope difference enough that you would not think you could go that way.
So you have played it?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yes I have played it... I say waiting for open beta because closed ends soon and I doubt we'll get that leve again before then.
I forgot to give honorable mention to the SE fanboys who see any negative post about thier baby and try to dismiss it. If you think a post is trolling, don't feed the troll. If you have nothing of value to add to a topic then don't post. If its not something you would say to my face in person then don't say it. Just because you can does not mean you should.
I should add that I've tried WoW a couple of times as RL friends play it. Its not a game for me or the wife. We did enjoy EQ2 for a couple of years and WAR at the begining.
99% of statistics are made up on the spot...
Skieve thanks for at least interacting. I really wish the SE community were less hostile though. I've found the general population of some games to be very childish and leet while SE's seems to be at the other end, too wise to tollerate other people and leet. You fit the mold well, but at least you tried.
I hope you're being sarcastic coz otherwise it's blatant denial.
Option b makes up for it, but still option a ... u gotta be joking.
Is okay man, but puting jump/no jump to the side. You have to understand a few thins.
1 - There will be no jumping past emotes.
2 - Posting here makes no diference of the outcome of the game
3 - The current state of the beta is BAD, really bad. So when you concerne yourself with a problem with a single quest it just really blows my mind away.
Nothin is posted in a bad way, i just dont think this leads to anythin besides making people discouraged to even try the game, when is at an early stage, and have , as im sure you have seen as well , so much to offer if lite thins like what you so elocuently pointed out gets fixed.
Im not sure why you can´t post on the feedback section of the beta-forum , no idea people couldnt tbh.Problably good to ask around on other sites so your able to, since SE never been good at comunicating with the fans.Problably the best way to toss your 2 cents is to send feedback on the matter.
edit; as for SE fans being such an asses, well i fall more into that category, but is not becouse im a ff fan, rather becouse i post on MMORPG.com and other forums that made me be this way. To be honest the FF player base is way nicer than most of the fans that do post here.Theres just a minority of fans who do actually post/read mmorpg.com or any forums in particular past a few selected hardcore players ( sadly i do fall into this category). The site doesnt even give an adecuate review on FFXIV to start with. is not MMORPG market aparently.
Skieve;
I post here because it is a good place to vent and get information (other beta players post here as well). I have already learned to look for a red dot next time I head south for this quest and I better understand why it abandons.
I don't care about jumping, I simply care about game designs that cause frustration.
As said above, no, posting here makes no difference in the outcome of the game (unless a "real" beta tester reposts some of it in the beta forums), but that is not why I post.
I don't consider it my job to hide details of a game that may discourage other people from playing it. I will say that we have 2 CE versions on pre-order and that little lamb is not enough to cause us to cancle them.
I read your frustration on this one little problem as compared to all the other problems. Thing is, there are already a lot of posts about them. Sure there is a lot of jumping posts but they are all extreme posts (at least the ones I read). This was more of a practical look of the effects of no jumping in game design.
I think we both came off as hostile but I'm glad things are on track. As said above my op has been changed to try and not cause all the hate from title alone.
So u did find a bug in Beta wow what a surprise.....just report it and hope SE will fix it and you did your job as a Beta Tester.
Judging a game mechanic or in this case the lack of it be course of a Bug seems rather silly to me to be honest.
OP since your character is classless couldn't you pull it with some range weapon or some spell?
I know this doesn't solve it but isn't it possible?
Did you read the part about how people added in the last round of closed beta can not report bugs? No, ok.
Did you read the part about how this bug just brought attention to aspects of the game design? No, ok.
Did you read the part (not by me) where there this is not a bug and there is a way to get there without abandoning your leve? No, ok.
The problem is solved. But to answer your question, no. This mob would be out of range. In the early levels the reach of ranged spells is much more limited than in other games (I'm not sure about bows as I've not used them). If it was in range it would work, maybe lol. I was able to attack a rat through height difference and the rat did run around (took maybe 7 or 8 seconds for him to reach me), and while he was running around he was out of my range. In this case it would take maybe a minute for him to reach me and I'm not sure how range or time factor into when an encounter ends or not.
As you say, it may be due to the fact that this is a mountain zone with uneven rocky terrain... but even so, this is a mistake that I thought they would avoid. Most people on the No Jumping side of the debate have taken this as a given, as it is a pretty reasonable assumption to make. After all, it is downright stupid to assume that the designers would put up long waist-high fences all over the place that take 10 minutes to run around. For what, just to call attention to the fact that you can't jump? Ridiculous. (Although obviously that has not stopped a great number of idiots from their Fence Prophecizing.)
But this sounds like at least one instance where the lack of jumping/falling is evident because of somewhere that you clearly want to go and think you should be able to go to but cannot. And it's probably a bit too late for them to consider changing that spot. I can only hope — for the sake of people with less tolerance than me — that the rest of the world doesn't have many places like this.
Your concern is legitimate and I'm sorry that people on both sides are crashing your thread without considering the specifics of your complaint.