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dirtyjoe78
Member Posts: 400
I was reminded recently of what you use to get with a box purchase, Lineage 2 released its latest expansion the 13th one it has released and like every other xpac they have released it is free. As i watch games like WoW add cash shops and sparkle ponys and STO charging customers for what should have argueable been in the game already games going F2P or discussions of cash shops being present in subscription games, I am reminded of what we use to get for a box purchase and a sub fee.
Cash shops, DLC all the things that pop up in games that really take away from the immersion, one example is the DLC in Dragonage Origins talk to a NPC for a quest and one choice in the text is to go download DLC....really. It makes me want to put on my rose tinted glasses and go back in time when i got a game and it wasn't interupted by DLC and cash shop crap. What do you guys think it it getting out of hand and breaking immersion or is it no big deal??
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Lineage 2 is the only game that did content right lol...I would say EVE, but the updates are few and far between.
L2 has arguably more content/things to keep you busy than any other MMO, the game is 10 times the size it was when it first released, and like you said 13 expansions all free.
We are in a dark area now, I would have hope TERA follows the same suit as L2 since it's the same developers.
What % of people playing an MMO do you think care about immersion? I do, but honestly, just look at the % of people that play on RP servers. It's tiny. For most people an MMO is not another world, it's just "pwning shit, dude!".
I dislike cash shops, I just like to pay my monthly fee and have everything included. I'm the same way about other things in my life. I'd rather pay and not worry about things.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
As long as people continue to purchase the "extras", the developers would be fools to not take advantage of it. If you're willing to buy it, why shouldn't they try to sell it?!
Now...my understanding of the issue is NOT acceptance of it. I will not play any P2P + RMT game again. STO and SWG have proven that genuine game content comes well after the quick dollar menu crap they can produce quickly and sell you via cash shops. People are brainwashed into thinking RMT items don't take away from more critical development...they're wrong.
Want this trend to end? It's simple...get people to stop paying for what we used to get as REAL content. Releasing unfinished games and selling the balance as "DLC" is on us, the consumer, for accepting it. This whole debate reminds me of this South Park episode (one of my favorites for many reasons). It's really no more complex than changing our buying habits...don't blame the developers for our insatiable appetites to want (buy) it all.
edit: DA:O was a fantastic game! The biggest rip IMO was that worthless POS "Awakening" expansion, which felt like nothing more than a player created crappy quest.
I also hate RMT due to it's wallet sucking, immersion destroying nature.
As previously mentioned, the only way to get rid of the growing trend of RMT, it to overtly boycott the services, and even going so far as boycotting games that including it, and vocally letting the developers know exactly why they won't be getting any of your money.
If you want to try to convince other players not to buy RMT, the best way is to contribute towards creating a social stigma behind it. Vocally let people know what you think about them for paying for RMT items. As nasty as it might seem, it's the only truly effective way to convince most people why RMT is bad. It's part of why there is so much virtiol spewed at people who purchased the "sparkle pony" for example, because people want those players to know what they think of their decision to purchase said item, because it contributes towards ruining their game.
Unless the inclusion of RMT becomes a liability, they won't stop trying to push it on everyone.
Huh? Every mmorpg needs updates. More tools, content.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I agree that developers are stupid if they dont take advantage of a market segment that is readily available to them its just smart business.
What really made me think of this was a combination of the latest update that hit Lineage 2 servers (still have some friends that play) and i was playing through DA:O again as a ruthless mage. I got to the part after Lothering when you are camped with the Dwarf and his son that does enchantments and the other dude that offers a quest which is DLC and the quest dialog option is to go download the content for the quest. Between that which completely took me out of the game as far as concentration and immersion and reading through the L2 patch notes it got me thinking, hey this shit use to be free because i bought the game or i bought the game and am still paying a sub fee.
I understand that development costs are more than they use to be 5-7 years ago but if you are going to spend 100million and give me something like APB or craft a game around here you can buy this or grind for 640hours to get the same shit then keep it i dont want either. I realize that there is probably nothing that can be done at this point to stop the nickel and diming (my opinion) but i would ask that devs at least hide that shit and not put it as a big shiny icon or into dialog when speaking with an NPC.
I understand everyone's dislike of DLC or RMT stores; however, there could be a certain upside. I don't think a gameplay should be interrupted for DLC pitches, but couldn't small adventure packs purchased outside of the game extend a game's life for a player? In the old days, players bought a boxed expansion. Now, they can buy smaller pieces of that expansion earlier, and they can also pick and choose which parts of an expansion they might want to pay for. Heck, that material might never been made at all if there wasn't a potential to make some money on it. Another good thing could be the ability to purchase items that were originally bonus material in special editions of the games. Some games come out with little extras if you purchase a copy of a game from different vendors. Now, players can pay for just these particular items instead of buying multiple box copies or editions of the game.
I'm not totally defending DLC or RMT. There is a LOT of room for abuse by developers in that area. I'm just trying to point out that if done right, DLC or RMT could be positives for us gamers.
On the other side of that it seems like developers are purposely leaving out quest chains and tidbits that they would have otherwise put into the game so they can sell it to you later. I am all for DLC outside the game or if it is a RMT game (i really dont play and cash shop games anymore) keeping it outside the game. What pisses me off is that they slap you in the face with it they put an NPC in the game with a quest marker over its head give you some back story then say her you cant do this part unless you go pay for it or hey buy this from the cash shop.
I think my beef with it is that it seems like developers are purposely desiging games to leave parts out that they would have otherwise put in the game and making you pay for it. Like character slots or content and quest chains. I dont have a problem with developers selling expansions and quest chains that add onto the game but it seems like they are making an incomplete game then trying to sell you the full thing when you use to get a complete product when you bought it before.
It's inevitable. If you are going to allow a developer to section out parts of one game to sell now or later (in pieces, not expansion), they will give you the minimum to hook you and save other stuff for later. It's human nature, a dialectical truth. Chances are, they will save the best parts to sell later.
That's why those who advocate vanity items in a paid game are shortsighted. Were I at the helm of one of these games, I would have my staff start defining all features that are cosmetic, include basic ones, and then sell the rest later.
I wouldn't care as much about maximising my total number of customers. As long as I can get each customer to pay more, it more than likely will at least even out, and much less cost for me.
Two expansions a year, every year, is few and far between?
But it's true. The old sayings apply...
"A fool and his money are soon parted."
and
"There's a fool born every minute."
Once upon a time....
Geeeeezus! If I were a shareholder, I'd want you were well compensated for your strategy. But as a customer, I'd want you sh!t canned yesterday.
Sadly, you've outlined what I believe to be the current strategy of almost every game developer today.
It's inevitable depending on whom is calling the shots.
What you would do, and what most of the industry is currently doing, isn't necessarily what has been done in the past, or would be done, by those in charge.
Personally, if I were in the position to have funding to create and run my own MMO, my top priority would be to make as enjoyable of a game as possible, which would include as many features and options as possible within financing of subscriptions. I would never resort to RMT concerning ingame items or advantages (services like characters transfers are an exception) to make additional profit so long as the game was still profitable.
Which is, I'm sure, what most true developers would do. The unfortunate truth however, is that these days it's rarely the developers who are calling the shots, it's the will of the financers. I would really like to hear more about the real views of game developers who end up having to add RMT into their game because they've been told to by a number cruncher that wants to make even more money ontop of somethign that is already making a decent amount.
The MMO industry of old used to me controled by the gaming visionaries like Richard Garriot. Once they lost creative control of their games, the games started to go downhill towards the current cesspool the MMO industry currently is.
It was an industry shift from fun and creativity, into addiction and greed.
How did the old games part you of your hard earned money?
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Waiting for a boat for 1 hour.
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Camping a spawn for sixteen hours.
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Traveling to the next town for 20 minutes.
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Sitting around for ten minutes to regain your health.
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Having to recover your corpse.
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Having to regain lost xps.
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Nothing's changed except for their methods.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
How did the old games part you of your hard earned money? (My Version)
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Waiting with your mates for a boat for 1 hour.
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Camping a spawn for sixteen hours with your mates.
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Traveling to the next town for 20 minutes with your mates.
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Sitting around for ten minutes with your mates to regain your health.
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Having to recover your corpse with your mates help.
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Having to regain lost xps with your mates help.
How do the new games part you of your hard earned money?
You go solo to the cash shop, get your credit card out and press the ‘I Win’ button. You might have a few mates to show your stuff of to, but in a modern 100% solo MMO that’s not likley. Then bored with that MMO it’s on to the next one.
Well see, here's the problem...
Even if there were more "time sinks", I still only paid $13 a month back in the day. These days, companies try to milk you out of paying more, for the same amount of play time.
Besides, I would either chat with friends while doing, or doing said timesinks with, my friends, so I really didn't mind because it was an opportunity to be social. We are talking about MMOs afterall.
You are referencing EQ which was only 1 of the original big 3.
UO and AC did not do most of these things except for recovering corpse and regaining lost xps, personally I feel games should have those because it provides risk and a sense of accomplishment instead of the dying doesn't matter at all approach.
UO was easy to gear up and level up your skills.
AC had a long slow climb through the levels because of the xp curve and how many levels there were, but you were always doing something. The longest respawn timers in game were like 15 minutes, most were 5. So you'd constantly be fighting and having fun. AC also did/does free monthly content updates.
It's not that MMOs always had ridiculous time sinks and always tried to rip you off, it is that companies saw the extra revenue they could make using the EQ model and they took that, build on it, and found even more ways to nickle and dime the customers.
If players had always been smart enough to stick to the games that weren't hosing them over it probably wouldn't have turned out that way. I still play AC to this day because of the free content each month and how much there is to do. It even has a lower monthly sub then most p2p games.
Players have shown they basically want to be ripped off and want to have reasons to spend hundreds of dollars on their MMOs, so the companies gave them that.
With the rush to make sure casual people can enjoy online games, that is log in and accomplish something in 30 minutes, the social aspect has suffered horribly. You are absolutely right that back then the games were brutal and unforgiving, but most of the time you shared the misery with other people because you had too and because you wanted to.
To accomplish something in a short time frame you have to either be able to do it by yourself, or the game has to setup something that allows it to happen fast, much like WoW did with the dungeon finder. The complaints are valid that its a lobby mechanic, because that's whats needed to make sure people can accomplish something fast. Dungeon finder groups are pretty symbolic of exactly what went wrong with the social cooperative aspect of online games.
The point of online games was to socialize in a persistent world, at least I thought it was, but certainly the parameters and the experience has changed significantly. I've heard from pvp players that the risk and thrill draws small groups together much better than pve systems can. While that's partly true, its only true because pve mechanics have been signifcantly watered down as evidenced by this list. PVE mechanics can be very binding if there's a reason to be bound together, but with a game that must make accomodations for 30 minutes of play, currently it doesn't exist.
I am in 100% agreement with you on this.
The problem with todays developers is that they are trying to push games out too fast, therefore they are lacking in content. To sell a game with next to no content for a $50 price tag and then charge for expansions, adventure packs, and so on and so forth is ridiculous.
Take STO for example. I have never played it (really didn't want to wait for it to download cause it was taking forever even on a 10m connection), However everything I have read about it tells me that they pushed it out without thinking about what exactly was in the game. Now they want you to go to their store to purchase additional content that really should have been included in the release.
I have played Lineage and Lineage 2 and never once have I payed for an expansion pack. Hell, when I started Lineage 1 way back in the day they sent me an install disc for free. I didn't even have to pay for the game just the monthly sub.
If people would realize that they are getting scammed by all of these new games charging at least $20 for an expac and stop buying em everything would be good. Alas, WoW started with TBC expac and now every developer wants to be like WoW.
Edit: Forgot about EQ and how they charged for all of their expac too. But what can you expect from SOE.
To accomplish something in a short time frame you have to either be able to do it by yourself, or the game has to setup something that allows it to happen fast, much like WoW did with the dungeon finder. The complaints are valid that its a lobby mechanic, because that's whats needed to make sure people can accomplish something fast. Dungeon finder groups are pretty symbolic of exactly what went wrong with the social cooperative aspect of online games.
The point of online games was to socialize in a persistent world, at least I thought it was, but certainly the parameters and the experience has changed significantly. I've heard from pvp players that the risk and thrill draws small groups together much better than pve systems can. While that's partly true, its only true because pve mechanics have been signifcantly watered down as evidenced by this list. PVE mechanics can be very binding if there's a reason to be bound together, but with a game that must make accomodations for 30 minutes of play, currently it doesn't exist.
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What EQ1 needed was a little meter in the corner that showed you how much real life cash you spent waiting on the boat to arrive. Like a taxi meter.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
There is a lot of room for abuse of DLC and RMT by game companies. Many posters on this forum feel that most modern MMO companies are ripping off their customers. The 'fix' to this will be when the customers get fed up with the way these companies are running the DLC/RMT and quit playing these games. At that point, companies will revisit older pay models and tactics to get money from their products. This may just be part of a cycle, or it could be a nitch of a pay model that will last for a long, long time.
As far as the ruined social aspects of games mentioned earlier in this thread, I mostly agree. However, I tend to play MMOs much as I used to play tabletop pen & paper games. I usually play during fixed times on fixed nights of the week (ie every Monday from 9pm to 11pm est) with the same group of people. We welcome others to join us, but we can always count on a core team showing up to play. Of course, that doesn't help meeting new players from pugs, but I always made more friends through guilds anyway.
For what its worth I hate wasting my time travelling in games, when I play single player ones its even more rediculous. I don't like waiting on groups, I don't like fed ex quests, essentially all those elements that make you feel like you just wasted a significant chunk of time for nothing.
I mean, I understand WHY they are there. A game world is a constrained box, what's supposed to be a real world is rediculously tiny in comparison. Any element that makes the world feel big, like travel time helps to maintain that illusion, and if you don't have it then your game is "instanced" or "lobby" or whatever other term is used to make the game sound like less than a persistent world.
I played everquest, past tense, it was my first MMOG so naturally I look back fondly at times, but despite the fact that its still around I have absolutely no desire to pick it up again. My point stands though, in a tough PVE world it draws players together, much like a PVP world does. Then again PVP worlds are rather "tough" by definition, so it must be pretty harsh to get that from a PVE setting. Therein lies the problem. Those settings have dissappeared, and thus other players are more an incovenience. That other player who used to have to help you kill something, is now the douche bag who just killed the quest mob and now you have to wait 5 minutes for respawn. That player who used to help you get something rare and agreed to split the sell price with you is now the jerk selling five of them making the price not worth even selling on the market.
I think there's probably a medium in there that draws players together so that there is a cooperative social aspect more so than is current. I also don't think it necessarily means that games have to go back to being EQlike. I would have to say though, that given the current cost of creating an MMOG and the absolute visciousness of the commentary on said games, that experimentation is not going to be... popular in finding such balance, and likely it'll be evolved into by an established game sometime in the future. Its the kind of element that can't be found without thousands of people involved, and development doesn't really allow the time frame or window to do such. A game will have to release with a "sure thing" which generally means a casual enabled solo style game these days. Its also one of those unstable systems that can't be described but only experienced, and likely in the future someone'll start a thread going "what happened?", when that game finally gets replaced by newer titles.
you make a linear game (like just about every mmo today) and people will reach "the end" much more quickly. once that happens, you bleed subs until you make new content. instead of making nonlinear games to take up players time and instead of making new expansions every 2 months, devs decide to nickel and dime their customers as much as they can. knowing full well their game has nothing to offer after a few months, they gotta squeeze as much money out of their players as fast as they can.