OP, we all have run into bad players in PuG before. Everyone has; there's no denying it. Even before the dungeon finder was introduced, there were still plenty of bad players on your server. You just have to accept the fact that you will run into bad players no matter what MMO you play.
OP, we all have run into bad players in PuG before. Everyone has; there's no denying it. Even before the dungeon finder was introduced, there were still plenty of bad players on your server. You just have to accept the fact that you will run into bad players no matter what MMO you play.
You can always rage quit. It works both ways. No one can force you to endure a bad group.
I don't think it's a fault with the Dungeon Finder. I think the Dungeon Finder is actually a great and innovative tool. The problem, at least to me, is trying to implement this tool on a gear dependent game without having "gear score" as one of the defining variables in the tool. Granted, I hate gear score and think it separates the community even worse than it already is, but, if your going to implement this kind of tool, make it work with the game you made.
I find some problems with tanks is that they think they have to DPS. I would rather a tank tank than DPS. Instead of using low damage taunting skills they want to dish out DPS and lose some threat.
But the OP sounds like a whiner. He got bad random groups....wow surprise. I get bad groups on elevators, on subways, in resturants...just about everything in life where there are random people put together. Games are no different. If you have a problem with the people in the group then leave or kick the person. Instead you whine. You expect...no you demand that people meet your standards, but frankly no one cares about you. None of us give a rat's ass what you want. We all want our other things. Some like to have fun by dicking around....annoying....yes. Some like to try new things....annoying...yes. It is a random group of people with random skills, mindsets, gear, and frankly intelligence. If you can not deal with this then stop playing any game that has random people and go back to playing games with only people you hand select.
I don't think it's a fault with the Dungeon Finder. I think the Dungeon Finder is actually a great and innovative tool. The problem, at least to me, is trying to implement this tool on a gear dependent game without having "gear score" as one of the defining variables in the tool. Granted, I hate gear score and think it separates the community even worse than it already is, but, if your going to implement this kind of tool, make it work with the game you made.
It would be awesome to have people with really high GS kicked out of groups
Being a tank that has left wow after the dungeon finder, I have to totally agree with this!
Being a tank that is working through ICC, should not be forced to group with a person who can't sustain over 1k dps on any given mob in a heroic dungeon. Or a healer who can't keep me alive without complaining about my gear, when its the healer that is wearing blues and greens.
WoW is the easiest MMO, and they are dumbing it down even more. You have to be either A) not a team player Epeen wanna be or C) midly retarded to not excel in WoW. When I had got in groups and experienced such crap, its the inability of the player that WoW catered to that made me quit.
My reason for quitting had alot to do with the players and alot to do with the game. Because the game itself draws a particular crowd. I got tired of wiping everyones butt in that game to get the job done.
So I figured I'll post this here, since obviously Blizzard silences vocal customers who "complain" on their forums by perma-banning them, which is exactly what they've done to me. I hardly ever post on their forums, I am mainly a reader, but on occasion I have posted, but all in all you can say I've posted maybe 20 times in over 4 years. It seemed though that, that was enough to perma-ban me without warning or "first time" offense.... nada, perma-ban and gtfo! That's blizzard, the cowboys of MMO's.
So on to my topic. The problem with MMO's is replayability, if you get everything and do everything, you're done, you either need an expansion or another game all together. So how does blizzard address that, well mainly by making loot tables randoms. Randoms to the point where you can be farming the same dungeons for months and never get that one drop you need.
Now, in the past there was issues getting groups to run those heroic dungeons, so what did Blizzaed introduce, the famous Random Dungeon Finder. So here's what's happening with this:
You either run with friends/guildies in which case you can avoid all issues, but if you cannot do that, for reasons that many people find unreasonable, like people are working, guildies are at school, etc... You are forced to use this tool and do the dungeons ala PUG.
So with pugs, this is whats happening (me being a tank);
-I get either under geared healers, people who should not be queuing up as healers but they only do so to reduce the wait time of queuing up.
-Undergeared healers with undergeared dps, which make the simplest of runs, the most hectic thing, that consists of wipe after wipe and taking over 2 hours in some cases.
-Extremely geared dps, who systematically do not letting you tank by going ALL OUT the first second you pull, without giving you the slightest chance to gain aggro. Forcing the healers to blow entire mana bars healing them, naturally leading to a wipe cause healer went out of mana.
-Dps who do not stand behind the tank and expect the tank to keep taunting off them while they keep making all the pulls.
Those are pretty much the standard scenarios found using this RFG (PUG) system. The system is basically crap for lack of better word. Blizzard has introduced this to band-aid the fact that getting groups was a horrific experiences in some cases, later at night , etc... so the slapped this candy out, hoping all problems would go away, but what this has done instead, is make decent players, have to deal with players who just suck.
And again, if I chose to not use the system because I dont want to deal with shitty players, Im back at square one, looking for a group that simply takes too long to do. So in effect, blizzard has solved nothing.
They are basically telling you, you will group up with, immature, undergeaerd, unexperienced players and you will most likely have a bad experience wiping non-stop, OR waster your time trying to put together a decent group.
As you can see, I got my ban for saying that this mechanic was cheap and it forced you to play with player you would otherwise not play with due to you not being at the same skill/gear level and that it was not a real fix, but a band-aid to a problem that they couldn't realistically address.
Conclusion, WoW is not a game you can enjoy any more, due to to constantly forcing you to team up with players who will ruin your experience and waste you time. Its a farm fest of gear that shouldn't be this hard to get. (How many times do I have to kill the same badass boss before I get my reward, I mean I killed him already, doesnt that prove I can do it?)
Sadly, Blizzards is using the old carrot on a stick trick and now, the only thing they added to this is the saying "Everyone is playing it" and they are selling it.
This is not a cry post, this is not a "I quit" post, its simply a heads up to those who dont play wow, as to what the average player is exposed to.
and P.S you need to see the kind of nerdrage that some players do, its really depressing to know, that you might be teaming up with them soon in your next dungeons adventure..... or misadventure?
That's pretty much standard fare for every PuG in any MMO. Sometimes you get lucky with the people, sometimes you don't. WoW's popularity concentrates and compounds the problem, but the issue stems from grouping mechanics that don't demand players learn a class well before entering a group and steep gear requirements in loot hungry PvE titles. The problem is not, nor has ever been, the LFG mechanic itself. It's a neutral mechanism that may bring to light the underlying faults with PvE, group-required dungeon crawling, but does not cause it.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Blizzard uses the guild system to promote organised friends play.
In CATA it will be further promoted by Guild leveling and Guild vs Guild "warplay" in PvP and rated Battlegrounds.
What you don't see is that every playing style is being promoted by Blizzard.
So ... the guys who don't want a guild can group for a Raid, a Battleground or a dungeon and can get their playing fun without HAVING to go into a guild (although the introduced guild leveling is encouraging but not a necessity).
The advantage of this "global offer" far outweighs the negative ones you mentioned.
Every content is playable. Even 5 years after publishment.
You regroup players (even independant of their gear in these casual dungeons/battlegorunds).
You PROMOTE actually structured friend groups by promoting guild and competitive play.
That's all there is to it: furthermore I think that 80 posts with ZERO stars already shows a certain attitude towards a " friendly community".
Troll size 10/10.
For anyone who ever wondered what a fanboi troll looks like, take this post as a clear cut example.
The fact you used the word troll in your post, after reading mine, gives you away, that you are
a) working for blizzard
b) affiliated with blizzard
c) a fanboi troll
d) a hater (who cant disagree with someone without calling them out to be trolls, etc...)
e) all of the above
And on top of that, you missed my point entirely. Good Job.
Im not talking about whether or not the system makes content available or not. If you read a little more carefully and took the time to understand before you jumped in with your blizzard propaganda about how great this system/game is, you would see that Im exclusively addressing the issue of having to deal with harassment and abuse from other players that you would not otherwise group with, but do so due to this system.
Additionally I want to add here, for everyone, but more specifically for those who think the game system is so advantageous and "pros far exceed cons" that it is not the case. The system is only as good as the people using it.
Take this example;
You need to take the bus to go to work/school. There is only one bus that passes, in it, are normal people like you, but also people with special needs, handicaps, mentally challenged and people with special needs in some way (im not refering to idiots and people who act like retards). Would you find this ride enjoyable? Or would you rather there was a second bus, where people like you/me who dint require special attention could use and everyone with special needs could use the special needs bus. Wouldn't that make more sense? Well it does where I live, because thats whats out there. We have regular busses and special busses.
How this relates to wow and RDF, is that even though there is a system that puts people together to run stuff, it doesnt account for skill/gear/experience. So you end up "carrying" or like I say babysitting these people through the heroics. Its not my job, nor is it anyone else's job to babysit people through runs, that clearly shouldn't be there in the first place.
Halls of Reflection, Pit of Saron and The Forge of Souls, are a good example of how gear score is used to group people. Although I recognize that its a step in the right direction, its not enough. Its only accounting for gear score and not skill. The flaw in this is that gear score can easily be "tricked" by using pvp gear. So again, you end up with people who dont belong there, which lead to all the non-sense crap I see all the time.
People think that this is not a major problem and just assume that it's propably me the "OP" who has an issue of some sort and just dismiss the topic. The truth is, its a problem and the system in place RDF is for lack of better word.... crap.
And this is just the issue with PvE. PvP has its own set of problems. Random BG finder and cross realm BG queue is another huge problem (similar to this). The problem in there is that you end up with, again, undergeared people compaired to you, people who arent on the same level skill wise and the biggest of all problems AFKer's and Bots!
People think cataclysm is gonna be so great due to all the pvp changes. Guess what, if the same system is in place when cata comes out, BG's, very much like random heroics are gonna be a mess, which will lead to a shitty experience.
How you might say? Very simple, what chance are you going to have queuing up using the random dungeon/bg finder versus a premade? The only answer any of you will say, is make your own premade. EXACTLY MY POINT, making your own premade means you arent using the random BG finder.... GET IT? So not using this mechanic is the solution. So tell me again how is this system any good when the solution to its problems is not using it?
The only counter-arguement to this is... well atleast its something. If you cant make a premade you can atleast still pvp.... I agree, but your experience will be most likely.... shitty. So whats the point? Why play a game when your experience with other will be bad...
And I will leave you with this video, for those of you who remain non-believers and still think everything is fine and its just the OP.....
Originally posted by glim3mer Now, in the past there was issues getting groups to run those heroic dungeons, so what did Blizzaed introduce, the famous Random Dungeon Finder.
Sorry i have not read the rest of the thread as i wanted to address the initial post, so i am sorry if i mention anything already gone over, but this post fails on one major point, that of the dungeon finder just being another in game tool.
It is a tool that you can use if you want but if you feel it doesn't work for you then use the old fashioned method of searching for players that you can work with via trade/LFG or just guild run them like we all used to?
If you do use it, even though you have these other options and know what you are going to get some of the time why piss and moan about it? Just like many of the game features introduced over the years it is your choice to use it or not!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
That's pretty much standard fare for every PuG in any MMO. Sometimes you get lucky with the people, sometimes you don't. WoW's popularity concentrates and compounds the problem, but the issue stems from grouping mechanics that don't demand players learn a class well before entering a group and steep gear requirements in loot hungry PvE titles. The problem is not, nor has ever been, the LFG mechanic itself. It's a neutral mechanism that may bring to light the underlying faults with PvE, group-required dungeon crawling, but does not cause it.
This.
The problems described in the OP are pretty much the same as you encounter in other MMO's with PUG's, sometimes you're lucky, sometimes not.
The only 'defect' I can see with the dungeon finder is that it encourages antisocial behaviour . In other MMO's gamers often have to play nice more, because if you continue to act like a jerk and asshole in groups, then it won't be long before this starts to work against you, people not wanting you in your group anymore if you have a bad rep. This was most visible in games as EQ, where its enforced grouping caused some MMO gamers to be more civil than their nature and generally good group members, because you might need the others in higher levels to progress.
This is not needed with the dungeon finder: people find a group of randoms you probably never see again, they're not on your server, so some players can act all as much as an antisocial, uncooperative jerk as they like, because they can easily hop into the next group without consequences.
The GS system as a replacement means to determine someone's skill is moronic and stupid too, but it has nothing to do with WoW's grouping mechanics, it's what people do themselves.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That's all there is to it: furthermore I think that 80 posts with ZERO stars already shows a certain attitude towards a " friendly community".
Troll size 10/10.
For anyone who ever wondered what a fanboi troll looks like, take this post as a clear cut example.
The fact you used the word troll in your post, after reading mine, gives you away, that you are
c) a fanboi troll
d) a hater (who cant disagree with someone without calling them out to be trolls, etc...)
And on top of that, you missed my point entirely. Good Job.
Im not talking about whether or not the system makes content available or not. If you read a little more carefully and took the time to understand before you jumped in with your blizzard propaganda about how great this system/game is, you would see that Im exclusively addressing the issue of having to deal with harassment and abuse from other players that you would not otherwise group with, but do so due to this system.
And this.
I don't agree with some of your conclusions in the OP, but some people's fanboism is as annoying as extreme hater ranting from others. Balanced views ftw!
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't see how the problems you mentioned don't apply to "regular" PuGs (those you got via some chat channel or whatever else mechanics that particular game uses). You never know if that Priest is good healer untill you actually group with him and go a run or two. The only difference I see is that you can remember names of people you really hated and not invite them again. It would maybe help the system if you could rate all players you have grouped with after the run is done (poor-good-great would be sufficient IMHO) and then the matchmaker would prefer people you (or even others) rated high. That way you should get more groups if you behave well, at least in theory.
And to the -undergeared- people - that's the thing that made me hate WoW. You don't have the gear we think is necessary for this run? -> we kick you. How the hell do you think that healer should get his "good" gear when he gets kicked out of any group for not having it?
Overall, I thing WoW is a greedy game that activelly supports greedy behavior and that this Forge-Me-A-PUG tool is just another nail it hammered into the RPG coffin, because it turned the adventure in a dark dungeon with party of allies into plain "who will get the loot today" sort of bullshit... My personal opinion, tho.
I don't see how the problems you mentioned don't apply to "regular" PuGs (those you got via some chat channel or whatever else mechanics that particular game uses). You never know if that Priest is good healer untill you actually group with him and go a run or two. The only difference I see is that you can remember names of people you really hated and not invite them again. It would maybe help the system if you could rate all players you have grouped with after the run is done (poor-good-great would be sufficient IMHO) and then the matchmaker would prefer people you (or even others) rated high. That way you should get more groups if you behave well, at least in theory.
If you hate someone that much, just put them on ignore and you will never be grouped with them by the system again.
If you queue up for a random group, you will get a random set of people. I really do not see how people expect the groups you get that way to be excellent all the time. On average you get the same quality of groups as you would with the old 'post in trade chat for group' system but you get way more groups, way faster. Overall the quality of the LFD pugs I have been in has been pretty good and most get the job done. If I want a known quality of players in the group I will group with guildies rather than random people. It is just plain common sense but I guess people want all the benefits of the LFD system without actually doing anything to get the result they want.
There's a solution to this. It's not a nice one. It's a pretty a..hole'ish approach to it. But I eventually succumbed to the realization that it's the only sensible way to deal with it.
Fact 1: There are more DDs than tanks. If you're a tank, you have a group. Now. Any time you want.
Fact 2: There are more DDs than healers. Not as bad as with tanks, but you have a group in a reasonable time.
In short: My way or the highway. A friend of mine (and a pretty good tank too) summed it up quite right: Tank dead? Healer's fault. Healer dead? Tank's fault. DD dead? His own fault.
As a tank, my sole responsibility is to keep the healer from getting aggro. If you, as a DD, get aggro, you should have
a) attacked my target.
b) waited for me to secure aggro
c) stop AOEing when you notice your portrait getting red.
You did not, you died. Period. If I have time and have a good day, I might peel that mob from you. But don't expect me to fire one of my oh-shit buttons with those 5 minute cooldowns. They're for the healer, and the healer only.
As a healer, my sole responsibility is to keep the tank alive. Do not expect me to heal you if you're a DD. I might, if I see that I have enough mana in my pool, but don't expect a hot, let alone a large heal, unless my mana tank is filled to the brim and I don't know where to put it (of course this does not apply if I'm the group healer in raids, we're talking 5 man instances for now... funny enough, I never had those issues in raids. Odd...). If you are a mage and oom, do not expect me to keep you alive, you're worthless. Rezzing you after battle is cheaper than keeping you alive.
As a DD, you are replaceable. Simple as that. Don't like it? Got complaints? Shoo, move over, there's like 100 waiting to take your spot.
Don't like my attitude? Play a tank and take my spot in the group!
Have to question the OP, first, he speaks as if players armor themselves poorly just to go into a game with him. This leads me to beleive that he is self-centered. A tank who is self-centered is never the tank to be with. Lets put this in laymens terms; I have not yet ran across anyone who decides to amror up in order to play poorly or play the game to someone elses specifications. If a player who plays ineffectively is not schooled on the proper approach...they will remain poor players. Calling them names and addressing them without leadership is a sign of a self-centered tank and should be avoided.
I do not mind telling a level 20 hunter to turn of his pet's taunt. I do not mind telling a level 25 rogue that attacking my target should ensure he does not get aggro. I do not mind telling a level 30 mage that he should maybe hold his heavy hitting AOEs 'til I got the mobs secured.
I do mind doing the same at level 60. Either you learned to play by then or you will never learn it. And in the latter case... there's 100 DD waiting to get your spot!
L2P, dammit. There is no longer any excuse to have no clue about group play, the dungeon finder will even find a group for a DD eventually. Yes, WoW is an almost zero-skill game. That there are STILL people who can't rub two brain cells together to play better than a crappy script is less a testament to this game being too hard, rather, it's an explanation why we're childproofing the world, I'm pretty sure some people are too stupid to survive in a normal environment. Actually, replacing the average player with a half baked script would increase the average skill by some margin. I certainly do not want to suffer another dumbing down just to make sure that even the last moron is able to get his heroic gear.
Comments
OP, we all have run into bad players in PuG before. Everyone has; there's no denying it. Even before the dungeon finder was introduced, there were still plenty of bad players on your server. You just have to accept the fact that you will run into bad players no matter what MMO you play.
You can always rage quit. It works both ways. No one can force you to endure a bad group.
I don't think it's a fault with the Dungeon Finder. I think the Dungeon Finder is actually a great and innovative tool. The problem, at least to me, is trying to implement this tool on a gear dependent game without having "gear score" as one of the defining variables in the tool. Granted, I hate gear score and think it separates the community even worse than it already is, but, if your going to implement this kind of tool, make it work with the game you made.
I find some problems with tanks is that they think they have to DPS. I would rather a tank tank than DPS. Instead of using low damage taunting skills they want to dish out DPS and lose some threat.
But the OP sounds like a whiner. He got bad random groups....wow surprise. I get bad groups on elevators, on subways, in resturants...just about everything in life where there are random people put together. Games are no different. If you have a problem with the people in the group then leave or kick the person. Instead you whine. You expect...no you demand that people meet your standards, but frankly no one cares about you. None of us give a rat's ass what you want. We all want our other things. Some like to have fun by dicking around....annoying....yes. Some like to try new things....annoying...yes. It is a random group of people with random skills, mindsets, gear, and frankly intelligence. If you can not deal with this then stop playing any game that has random people and go back to playing games with only people you hand select.
It would be awesome to have people with really high GS kicked out of groups
Being a tank that has left wow after the dungeon finder, I have to totally agree with this!
Being a tank that is working through ICC, should not be forced to group with a person who can't sustain over 1k dps on any given mob in a heroic dungeon. Or a healer who can't keep me alive without complaining about my gear, when its the healer that is wearing blues and greens.
WoW is the easiest MMO, and they are dumbing it down even more. You have to be either A) not a team player
Epeen wanna be or C) midly retarded to not excel in WoW. When I had got in groups and experienced such crap, its the inability of the player that WoW catered to that made me quit.
My reason for quitting had alot to do with the players and alot to do with the game. Because the game itself draws a particular crowd. I got tired of wiping everyones butt in that game to get the job done.
That's pretty much standard fare for every PuG in any MMO. Sometimes you get lucky with the people, sometimes you don't. WoW's popularity concentrates and compounds the problem, but the issue stems from grouping mechanics that don't demand players learn a class well before entering a group and steep gear requirements in loot hungry PvE titles. The problem is not, nor has ever been, the LFG mechanic itself. It's a neutral mechanism that may bring to light the underlying faults with PvE, group-required dungeon crawling, but does not cause it.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
For anyone who ever wondered what a fanboi troll looks like, take this post as a clear cut example.
The fact you used the word troll in your post, after reading mine, gives you away, that you are
a) working for blizzard
b) affiliated with blizzard
c) a fanboi troll
d) a hater (who cant disagree with someone without calling them out to be trolls, etc...)
e) all of the above
And on top of that, you missed my point entirely. Good Job.
Im not talking about whether or not the system makes content available or not. If you read a little more carefully and took the time to understand before you jumped in with your blizzard propaganda about how great this system/game is, you would see that Im exclusively addressing the issue of having to deal with harassment and abuse from other players that you would not otherwise group with, but do so due to this system.
Additionally I want to add here, for everyone, but more specifically for those who think the game system is so advantageous and "pros far exceed cons" that it is not the case. The system is only as good as the people using it.
Take this example;
You need to take the bus to go to work/school. There is only one bus that passes, in it, are normal people like you, but also people with special needs, handicaps, mentally challenged and people with special needs in some way (im not refering to idiots and people who act like retards). Would you find this ride enjoyable? Or would you rather there was a second bus, where people like you/me who dint require special attention could use and everyone with special needs could use the special needs bus. Wouldn't that make more sense? Well it does where I live, because thats whats out there. We have regular busses and special busses.
How this relates to wow and RDF, is that even though there is a system that puts people together to run stuff, it doesnt account for skill/gear/experience. So you end up "carrying" or like I say babysitting these people through the heroics. Its not my job, nor is it anyone else's job to babysit people through runs, that clearly shouldn't be there in the first place.
Halls of Reflection, Pit of Saron and The Forge of Souls, are a good example of how gear score is used to group people. Although I recognize that its a step in the right direction, its not enough. Its only accounting for gear score and not skill. The flaw in this is that gear score can easily be "tricked" by using pvp gear. So again, you end up with people who dont belong there, which lead to all the non-sense crap I see all the time.
People think that this is not a major problem and just assume that it's propably me the "OP" who has an issue of some sort and just dismiss the topic. The truth is, its a problem and the system in place RDF is for lack of better word.... crap.
And this is just the issue with PvE. PvP has its own set of problems. Random BG finder and cross realm BG queue is another huge problem (similar to this). The problem in there is that you end up with, again, undergeared people compaired to you, people who arent on the same level skill wise and the biggest of all problems AFKer's and Bots!
People think cataclysm is gonna be so great due to all the pvp changes. Guess what, if the same system is in place when cata comes out, BG's, very much like random heroics are gonna be a mess, which will lead to a shitty experience.
How you might say? Very simple, what chance are you going to have queuing up using the random dungeon/bg finder versus a premade? The only answer any of you will say, is make your own premade. EXACTLY MY POINT, making your own premade means you arent using the random BG finder.... GET IT? So not using this mechanic is the solution. So tell me again how is this system any good when the solution to its problems is not using it?
The only counter-arguement to this is... well atleast its something. If you cant make a premade you can atleast still pvp.... I agree, but your experience will be most likely.... shitty. So whats the point? Why play a game when your experience with other will be bad...
And I will leave you with this video, for those of you who remain non-believers and still think everything is fine and its just the OP.....
http://www.youtu
Sorry i have not read the rest of the thread as i wanted to address the initial post, so i am sorry if i mention anything already gone over, but this post fails on one major point, that of the dungeon finder just being another in game tool.
It is a tool that you can use if you want but if you feel it doesn't work for you then use the old fashioned method of searching for players that you can work with via trade/LFG or just guild run them like we all used to?
If you do use it, even though you have these other options and know what you are going to get some of the time why piss and moan about it? Just like many of the game features introduced over the years it is your choice to use it or not!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
This.
The problems described in the OP are pretty much the same as you encounter in other MMO's with PUG's, sometimes you're lucky, sometimes not.
The only 'defect' I can see with the dungeon finder is that it encourages antisocial behaviour . In other MMO's gamers often have to play nice more, because if you continue to act like a jerk and asshole in groups, then it won't be long before this starts to work against you, people not wanting you in your group anymore if you have a bad rep. This was most visible in games as EQ, where its enforced grouping caused some MMO gamers to be more civil than their nature and generally good group members, because you might need the others in higher levels to progress.
This is not needed with the dungeon finder: people find a group of randoms you probably never see again, they're not on your server, so some players can act all as much as an antisocial, uncooperative jerk as they like, because they can easily hop into the next group without consequences.
The GS system as a replacement means to determine someone's skill is moronic and stupid too, but it has nothing to do with WoW's grouping mechanics, it's what people do themselves.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
And this.
I don't agree with some of your conclusions in the OP, but some people's fanboism is as annoying as extreme hater ranting from others. Balanced views ftw!
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't see how the problems you mentioned don't apply to "regular" PuGs (those you got via some chat channel or whatever else mechanics that particular game uses). You never know if that Priest is good healer untill you actually group with him and go a run or two. The only difference I see is that you can remember names of people you really hated and not invite them again. It would maybe help the system if you could rate all players you have grouped with after the run is done (poor-good-great would be sufficient IMHO) and then the matchmaker would prefer people you (or even others) rated high. That way you should get more groups if you behave well, at least in theory.
And to the -undergeared- people - that's the thing that made me hate WoW. You don't have the gear we think is necessary for this run? -> we kick you. How the hell do you think that healer should get his "good" gear when he gets kicked out of any group for not having it?
Overall, I thing WoW is a greedy game that activelly supports greedy behavior and that this Forge-Me-A-PUG tool is just another nail it hammered into the RPG coffin, because it turned the adventure in a dark dungeon with party of allies into plain "who will get the loot today" sort of bullshit... My personal opinion, tho.
If you hate someone that much, just put them on ignore and you will never be grouped with them by the system again.
If you queue up for a random group, you will get a random set of people. I really do not see how people expect the groups you get that way to be excellent all the time. On average you get the same quality of groups as you would with the old 'post in trade chat for group' system but you get way more groups, way faster. Overall the quality of the LFD pugs I have been in has been pretty good and most get the job done. If I want a known quality of players in the group I will group with guildies rather than random people. It is just plain common sense but I guess people want all the benefits of the LFD system without actually doing anything to get the result they want.
There's a solution to this. It's not a nice one. It's a pretty a..hole'ish approach to it. But I eventually succumbed to the realization that it's the only sensible way to deal with it.
Fact 1: There are more DDs than tanks. If you're a tank, you have a group. Now. Any time you want.
Fact 2: There are more DDs than healers. Not as bad as with tanks, but you have a group in a reasonable time.
In short: My way or the highway. A friend of mine (and a pretty good tank too) summed it up quite right: Tank dead? Healer's fault. Healer dead? Tank's fault. DD dead? His own fault.
As a tank, my sole responsibility is to keep the healer from getting aggro. If you, as a DD, get aggro, you should have
a) attacked my target.
b) waited for me to secure aggro
c) stop AOEing when you notice your portrait getting red.
You did not, you died. Period. If I have time and have a good day, I might peel that mob from you. But don't expect me to fire one of my oh-shit buttons with those 5 minute cooldowns. They're for the healer, and the healer only.
As a healer, my sole responsibility is to keep the tank alive. Do not expect me to heal you if you're a DD. I might, if I see that I have enough mana in my pool, but don't expect a hot, let alone a large heal, unless my mana tank is filled to the brim and I don't know where to put it (of course this does not apply if I'm the group healer in raids, we're talking 5 man instances for now... funny enough, I never had those issues in raids. Odd...). If you are a mage and oom, do not expect me to keep you alive, you're worthless. Rezzing you after battle is cheaper than keeping you alive.
As a DD, you are replaceable. Simple as that. Don't like it? Got complaints? Shoo, move over, there's like 100 waiting to take your spot.
Don't like my attitude? Play a tank and take my spot in the group!
Have to question the OP, first, he speaks as if players armor themselves poorly just to go into a game with him. This leads me to beleive that he is self-centered. A tank who is self-centered is never the tank to be with. Lets put this in laymens terms; I have not yet ran across anyone who decides to amror up in order to play poorly or play the game to someone elses specifications. If a player who plays ineffectively is not schooled on the proper approach...they will remain poor players. Calling them names and addressing them without leadership is a sign of a self-centered tank and should be avoided.
Have a nice day,
I do not mind telling a level 20 hunter to turn of his pet's taunt. I do not mind telling a level 25 rogue that attacking my target should ensure he does not get aggro. I do not mind telling a level 30 mage that he should maybe hold his heavy hitting AOEs 'til I got the mobs secured.
I do mind doing the same at level 60. Either you learned to play by then or you will never learn it. And in the latter case... there's 100 DD waiting to get your spot!
L2P, dammit. There is no longer any excuse to have no clue about group play, the dungeon finder will even find a group for a DD eventually. Yes, WoW is an almost zero-skill game. That there are STILL people who can't rub two brain cells together to play better than a crappy script is less a testament to this game being too hard, rather, it's an explanation why we're childproofing the world, I'm pretty sure some people are too stupid to survive in a normal environment. Actually, replacing the average player with a half baked script would increase the average skill by some margin. I certainly do not want to suffer another dumbing down just to make sure that even the last moron is able to get his heroic gear.