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Simple gameplay question
snoop101
Member UncommonPosts: 400
Maybe it was just me and I dont want to put down the first FF mmo, but I found the movement very clunky and I actually never got into the game. Walking around was not very fluent and the gui was odd. So im wondering if this has changed at all. As much as people hate to admit it but Wow,Lotro, and AOc to me all flowed when it came to movement.
Comments
The issues you're having stem from the fact that FFXI was built to be run on consoles, and basically ported to PC. The control systems favor consoles because easy-to-use mouse interfaces absolutely trounce controller-users any day of the week. It's actually -easier- to play FFXI or FFXIV on an XBox 360 wired controller; that's what I use for 'em, and I don't use it for anything else but emulation and Cortex Command.
FFXIV has about the same problem. A lot of folks bitch about the GUI, particularly PC players. If you're having issues, try it on a dual-analog controller. XBox or Playstation style doesn't really matter, but do make the attempt with the intended media.
None of the games you mentioned could be played or support a controller. FF online games are made to be played on consoles and controllers as well as mouse/keyboard. Because of this the UI and control scheme are different, and being different is too much for some people.
It may take a few days to get it down but it is a relatively easy learning curve. If you have to have a control scheme like the games you mentioned then this game probably isn't for you. At least you have like 4 more games coming in the next year that will be exactly like those games though.
Thanks guys. I actually had no idea they were both intended like that. I dont follow FF games like some.
I like how FFXI was & its similar. It doesn't feel clunky to me at all.
Its just a preference & a question of what you are use to.
My guess is, that even if SE implemented a sytem that would be more in ligne with what you are used to, it would still feel a bit strange to you. SE doesn't work exactly like the game you mentioned. a.k.a. FFXIV isn't what is generally called a WoW clone.
I hope you find the patience to adapte.
/cheers
I don't know I always used controllers with these games based on some friends suggestions and I really enjoy it. It is my preferred way to play games really so I like to see it in MMO's. I still hear the Mouse/Keyboard is a bit rough but it is understandable. It is tough to design an MMO to work on a controller and mouse/keyboard. With controls menus are basically in a tree where on PC users are used to one shortcut press and menus that are 1-2 actions deep where with consoles and controllers menus are often 5-6 actions deep. It is difficult to support both, but they do a pretty good job of it. I think that the controller is better supported though and it makes sense because Japan is largely a controller based gaming community even on PC.
Lol stop spready false rumors. The game was not "ported from consoles" as you so claim, so don't lie. SE just hasn't learned how to implement propper mouse support yet. The game uses software mouse handling, so it actually depends of your computer how "clunky" it is. XIV is much smother than XI though.
XI has hardware mouse as an option. Added like a year or two after launch I think. The control scheme isn't that far off from most PC games, but you can't bind keys, and because the menus are nested the UI doesn't flow like a PC's, but more like a console games.
FFXI was ported from consoles. Sorry.
The game came out on PS2 and the windows version came out half a year later as a "oh, hey, maybe we should put this on windows, too" later into the game's development cycle (Game released in Japan in 2002.) However, FFXI's release situation is reverse for NA and EU due to Sony being greedy and it was just a simple localization that needed to be done.
That is because XI was indeed, meant to primarilly run on consoles, because that is what SE's primary customer base is using.
But, XIV is a whole other beast, its not fair to compare the two.
Were talking about XIV here. In no way shape or form was it ported from a console.
On the contrary, they have to port it TO a console.
You're right, it wasn't so much a port as it was developed with the handicapped (by need for controllers) consoles in mind.
M/K is a vastly more efficient control method for games with as many knobs and buttons and things as FFXIV. WoW isn't on consoles because having a game with 40 commands per character at any given time and a controller with only 4 face buttons just isn't a viable control solution; the FF Online titles were developed with that shortcoming in mind, so they require more nested menus and, therefore, less efficiency. Making it twice as easy to use for PC players would put all other players (a substantial portion of their userbase, if metrics are to be believed) at a great disadvantage. A lot of games don't get cross-platform multiplayer support for this reason.
Also, it's clunky even if you're running a really, really fast machine. It's software-only, and the mouse cursor's position is limited by the framerate in-game. When I'm running 60fps, it still feels like the mouse is a little heavy. XIV is better than XI, it's true, but it doesn't make it -nice- to use a mouse; overall, the game just -feels- much better when you use it with the controller, which is what they had in mind when they designed the entire UI.
Um... just a little correction. I think its M$ that is being greedy. No 360 release annonced yet.
Sony just have a memory issue with the PS3 that SE have to work around, which seem to take more time than what they were expecting or something.
Might be wrong too. : /
edit: Nvm... I read that all wrong. lol
FFXI wasn't ported it was made for pc and ps2 simultaneously. I think it might have come for PC first in Japan. It was later released in America.
Edit.. Actually you are right it was released 6 months earlier in Japan on PS2, but in America it was PC and then PS2. Still it was originally designed for simultaneous PS2/PC and American and Japanese launches. I don't think it was much of a port.
Whether or not FFXI was ported from consoles to PC seems kind of immaterial. The point, as far as I'm concerned, is akin to going out with folks that have specific diet requirements; if you go out with a bunch of folks that have no allergies, great. If you go out with a bunch of folks, one of whom is severely allergic to sesame and peanut, you're going to avoid Thai food.
The same things happen when you develop for different platforms that each have unique requirements and significant differences in control style, storage capacity, and other concerns; the one with the worst controls (consoles in general, as compared to PC) and the more difficult-to-work-with hardware (PS3 as compared with XBox and PC; programming for PlayStation in general sucks a fat ass) are going to limit the other consoles. When one person has to use a console, everyone's UI gets slower and clunkier so that those four little buttons can equate to a ton of different skills and abilities.
Since they don't need to play nice together, Mass Effect on consoles and Mass Effect on PCs can fit substantially different requirements without having to rein in one for the benefit of the other. FFXI PC and FFXI PS2 have to play nice together, so both sides get a cruddy console-style control scheme, not to mention the effect of coders more used to PlayStation's style of coding and hardware trying to program for Microsoft products.
Cross-platform stuff is a mess.
If some of you guys can not learn to play with a new UI just go back to playing board games. 90% of every game I buy has differnt controls, unless its a sequal.
I hate to sound like a freakin elitist douch-bag, but L2P or GTFO.
Its not rocket science to learn a new UI.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I don't mind the FFXIV UI at all; I've been playing since UO and the beta for Asheron's Call, learning new stuff is pretty cool with me.
Issue is, these days no one (save for a statistically insignificant few such as probably you and me) has played those old games, so no one realizes what a massive step forward the WoW or FFXI or what-have-you interface is from how it used to be. I remember typing 'kill orc' 'cast fireball' 'wimpy 20' and loving it. People who grew up with WoW are going to look on less-efficient control schemes with contempt because they aren't -very- easy to get into and use. That said, the FF online games have never really been about inviting casual play. They're pretty hardcore, so folks like you and I get used to it, learn it and play, and people who don't have much interest in being challenged go ahead and keep playing WoW or its offshoots.
ahh the good ole text commands I remember playing those type of games on an old old apple computer when I was younger, all text based.
I tend to agree that It is the newer generation whom complain so much about this UI issue. I swear some of these guys on here are worse than a bunch of old ladies in the hair salon when it comes to bashin on senseless stuff.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Good old Beyond the Fire. A spacefighting game played entirely in text, complete with bearing/heading readings, non-Newtonian physics, and having to run a Goddamn starship.
The first time I went out flying by myself, I had to get towed in and cloned because I didn't turn on the heat and froze my stupid ass to death out there in space.
That shit happens to folks these days, they get all pissy and go back to simpler things. As my top-200-in-world WoW-playing roomie says, they get mad 'cuz they're bad.
Compared to older MMOs, WoW is about as engaging as vegging out in front of a TV with some chips, unless you belong to the 1% that actually tries to clear endgame content, or the .01% that succeeds within a week of said content's release. The shit can be hard, but a little organization, teamwork and dedication will get you through it.
Anyway. One of WoW's biggest impacts on the genre is bringing folks in who have no real love of it; they like WoW, and if they play something that's too much like it, they'll call it a copy... not enough like it, and they won't stay long enough to figure out the UI and actually get their feet under them. It's a massive, multi-million-player base of human beings who just don't want to play anything else.
Heh, I used to run with a group of MUDers. Even been a WZ. But when most of the playerbase ran off to play WoW, it just kind of faded. Can't really say I miss MUDing, but it was pretty fun.
Oh please, give me a break!
It's 2010, the fact that Blizzard or Apple (even M$) have improved interfaces cannot be simply dismissed by others saying "said UI logics used to work, let's use it again". Or we could just revert to command lines and 28k to play online games altogether... nah, not much of a prospect actually.
I'm an interface freak. I love using, discovering, customizing, understanding interfaces and their logics, and a geek in me always asks for betterness. The fact is, I've dealt with countless interfaces, both on PC and consoles, for twenty and some years, in all kinds of software not at all restricted to video games. I'm the kind of guy that usually feels at home on any piece of software after a few hours of digging.
Well let me tell you: I've seen accountant software interface being more fun to use than FF XIV's. By fun I mean psychologically rewarding in that you can hope for a consistent logics (allowing you to predict things you don't know yet in the interface, such as where to find an option) and powerful information organization (allowing you to grasp a lot of information in a quick look, at any hierarchical level of the menus). FF XIV's interface is a mess. It's counter-intuitive in many respects. It's clumsy and it lacks coherency. Information is hard to find, hard to compare, hard to retain. It is an ergonomical outrage.
That it can be played, with a controller preferably, I have no doubt. I did it. That's it's efficient, let alone fun, I don't think so, and I doubt many will think otherwise, especially those--numerous--who never played FF XI. UI has never been Square's strong suit, let's face it, they have been mediocre on that respect on more than one occasion. But this particular issue on the XIV may very well bring its downfall, driving it away from the casual masses. What is the most beautiful car worth if it's a pain to drive? What is FF XIV worth if it's a pain to control? Many people will just run away, much too many if you ask me, considering the superb quality of the game itself.
I miss it, there was just so much creativity and literally a flavor for everyone. Text could do so much more for the imagination, it didn't have to yield to graphical limitations.
But yeah UO came out then other GMUDs followed (WoW, FFXI, EQ, etc..etc...), and soon they were just a wasteland, but times change I guess.
and
old gamer is old lol.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
There's a reason for it to be less easy to use than WoW's interface, Ikkei. I've gone into it enough already, really; the interface is exceptionally poor when you're using it in the context of WoW simply because the control scheme for which it was designed is significantly less flexible than WoW's.
Japanese RPGs have, in recent years, been plagued by that particular culture's liking for nested menus and things. They started up that way, and it was a great solution in its day, but it really does need to move on by now. I can think of a dozen ways to improve FFXIV's UI right off the top of my head, although each comes with a little sacrifice of a part of the game that's important to Square.
FF11's macro system made the controller-orientated gameplay a breeze. If they would stop pandering to the WoWheads with the current action-bar doodad in FF14 and get back to the FF11 macro triggers, then FF14 would be a snap. A well-designed controller-based UI is infinitely more accessible than m/k. The ONLY advantage m/k has, AT ALL, is camera-pan speed. Period. Full stop. Don't argue with me; played DAoC, AO, EQ, L2, several F2P KMMOs, as well as WoW and LoTRO and DDO, blah blah blah. FF11 has a damn good thing going and FF14 should not be changing the template just coz the m/k fanboiz say m/k is best. The Earth is flat too, eh?
Indeed, you've already suggested that people try the dual-analog controller to play the game, as it is the intended medium, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Moreover I hear you when you say that there's a "reason" for it to be less easy than WoW. Agreed, it's not a matter of direct comparison--we could argue that notepad(wow) is easier to use than dreamweaver(ffxiv), yet it doesn't say much about the respective value of those interfaces.
However, there are more subtle issues with FF XIV's interface on PC. I'm talking about "non-PC logics", such as the spherical mouse movement (if you observe correctly, you'll notice that a mouse cursor on PC usually reproduces the exact [x;y] vector of your hand movement (it's homotetic); while a controller stick moves in circles (pushing it to the left will make the cursor go to the middle of the left border of the screen, to reach the top left corner you have to push the stick top-left, regardless of your cursor being on top or bottom of the screen when you initiate the movement). The fact that the game uses a controller logic (circling movements) even when you're playing with m/k is what's causing trouble to many people when they need to be thorough. It's a mistake in design, each medium should benefit of proper hardware implementation.
As for menus, I agree that a console design requires several more hierarchical levels, and can't be as immediate as a pure PC interface design; however this doesn't imply said hierarchical organization has to be messy and counter-intuitive, as it as often the case in Square's UIs, particularly in this XIV. Anyone who tried getting the item trophy on FFXIII knows what I mean: how much time did you spend just validating or cancelling menus between shops and crafting?
We agree on J-RPG apparently, however when you say that improvements to FF XIV's UI would essentially hinder Square's conceptualization of the game, I think it's a matter of balance. As of now, using that UI is a challenge in itself, and for all I know it's not Square's interest to make it hard to use the game (the point is that difficulty should be in the mechanics and systems, not the interface...).
I mean, it reminds me of earlier versions of Windows, when M$ clearly struggled with UI, but nonetheless tried hard. There was a way to make it better, as we can see with 7, but it wasn't obvious in the 2000 era, and indeed in its time 2000's UI was more than adequate, if clearly not user-friendly. My point is, I'm sure Square can do better with this UI, should actually revamp it prior to the PS3 release, without sacrificing so much of the spirit they're looking for. Me, optimistic? Never.
Im actually really happy they did this. And here I was thinking SE would take full advantage of the M/K medium. My friend talks about how in WoW he uses the mouse and when he is PvPing he runs circles around people he can tell are using the keyboard.
I know that this isnt a PvP game but there are instances where people will compete against one another, pops and such. In keeping the PC players at the same "handicap" everything is even. Sure its not good for people who want the responsiveness of PC controlls. But ultimately you have the same responsiveness as everyone else in the gam. which is a "WOW" factor for me cause I was sure SE would cave to PC users in their attempt to pick up WoW players.
I played FF11 for a month or so on the keyboard only on PC, its not bad at all, even though I was used to a prior 3 years of PS2 play. Looking back on it now when I used the directional arrows for camera movement I was probably "turning" at the same rate a person would on PS2 controlls, and the idea that they made sure things were fair is pretty cool..then all of a sudden I thought to buy a dual analog controller for my PC... definitely was happy about that and only 20 bucks!
I love snails.
I love every kinda snail.
I just want to hug them all, but I cant.
Cant hug every snail.
Nuts. If they don't have an option to switch over to a more mouse/keyboard style movement scheme that will be the end of it for me. I don't care of the game options are nested in menus. Not my preference but not the end of the world either. But the movement in FFXI was a game killer for me. I couldn't figure it out. I tried installing and playing the game two separate times. Gave it several hours both times. They game simply made me ill. I finally figured out that you had to move the camera in to first person mode to make the movement make any sense at all and I cant handle that. Gives me vertigo. If I can't effectively control the movement from a third person view it simply wont work. And it is not a matter of simply getting used to something new. The interface for Lineage 2 is very different from WoW and it only took me a few hours to get used to it. PWI is also like that. But FFXI was something different. If was simply an unplayable game from my perspective.
I am really looking forward to this game and I really want to get into it. But if it plays like FFXI I will have no choice but to cancel the pre-order.
All die, so die well.