What is so innovative about dynamic events?

jezvin · September 2010

This is my only complaint about the game right now. From all the videos I saw they looked 90% the same as WAR public quests.

You walk into an area

Your UI tells you your doing a quest

It tells you kill 10 mobs

A boss comes out

It ends

A chest appears? loot?

It's basically a public quest. The ONLY thing I see that is something new is that they are made into branching quest chains. Also no timer telling you when the next will start. Are those things really that innovative?

I just don't think innovative is the right word for dynamic events.

jondifool · September 2010

read this http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/

and lets discuss your oppinion after that !

therez0 · September 2010

From Wiktionary:

Verb

to innovate (third-person singular simple present innovates, present participle innovating, simple past and past participle innovated)

(obsolete, transitive) To alter, to change into something new. [quotations ?]
- 1621, Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy, New York 2001, p. 80:
  
  But the most frequent maladies are such as proceed from themselves, as first when religion and God's service is neglected, innovated or altered [...].
(intransitive) To introduce something new to a particular environment; to do something new.

By that definition, even if the dynamic events are improvements on PQs, it is still innovation.

And what about the branching, variable chains of events isn't innovative? Its never been done in an MMO before (e.g. something new).

lucid4life · September 2010

A piece taken from an article here on MMORPG explains it better then I could.It doesn't end like you think it does nor do the most dynamic events look like that at all.But read below to understand better:

"Colin goes on to describe how quests are flawed, in that if you are sent out on a quest to kill 10 Ogres who are supposedly going to destroy an NPC's home, you'd typically just find these Ogres "standing around in a field picking daises," basically just waiting for you to kill them at the quest's marked location. This won't be the case in Guild Wars 2 due to the dynamic events system. Instead, if an NPC tells you Ogres are coming to level his house -- you'd better believe it!

The dynamic events system isn't simply a different conduit to deliver storyline and quest to players, according to Colin it also gives players the potential to have a lasting impact on the game world, something not often found in most MMOs:

A single player decision can cascade across a zone, changing the direction of a chain of events until they dramatically alter the content played by players in a map.

Other developers have tried to tackle this problem, but in Guild Wars 2 we go further. Where other multi-player quest systems were pass or fail - our dynamic events evolve in response to player interaction and the outcomes they achieve. Where previous systems reset and start again and really don't change the world, dynamic events chain and cascade across a zone and leave persistent effects in the game world after the event has ended.

Loke666 · September 2010

The innovative thing really is that the world can look different than it did before, and you and the other players can affect things.

If you do a PQ things look the same after as before you started. If you do one of the semi instanced things in games like LOTRO things actually do look different after you done the quest but only for you and the other that did it.

You can't be sure which events that currently are going on even if some triggers will be figured out and be posted on the net.

If it is a great mechanics or not is up to each of us to decide for us selves and it actually takes a few days playing to be able to judge that fairly. But no matter if you think it is good or bad it is innovative, no one has done a similar system for a MMO before.

jezvin · September 2010

Originally posted by therez0
From Wiktionary:

Verb

to innovate (third-person singular simple present innovates, present participle innovating, simple past and past participle innovated)

(obsolete, transitive) To alter, to change into something new. [quotations ?]

1621, Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy, New York 2001, p. 80:

But the most frequent maladies are such as proceed from themselves, as first when religion and God's service is neglected, innovated or altered [...].

(intransitive) To introduce something new to a particular environment; to do something new.

By that definition, even if the dynamic events are improvements on PQs, it is still innovation.

And what about the branching, variable chains of events isn't innovative? Its never been done in an MMO before (e.g. something new).

I don't see it as somthing new, quest chains exsist in gaming and in MMOs.

is it inovative because more people can interact in a single quest chain? no it's not adding people is not new it's adding more of the same they are still quest chains just more than one person takes part.

jezvin · September 2010

Originally posted by Loke666
The innovative thing really is that the world can look different than it did before, and you and the other players can affect things.

If you do a PQ things look the same after as before you started. If you do one of the semi instanced things in games like LOTRO things actually do look different after you done the quest but only for you and the other that did it.

You can't be sure which events that currently are going on even if some triggers will be figured out and be posted on the net.

If it is a great mechanics or not is up to each of us to decide for us selves and it actually takes a few days playing to be able to judge that fairly. But no matter if you think it is good or bad it is innovative, no one has done a similar system for a MMO before.

It seems like they just took what is public quest and made them longer.

They have even said it themselves it's not 100% a change. All the dynamic events will eventually reset back to the way it was at the start.

Sure WAR PQs were tiny and dull, dynamic events sound like they are going to be huge and awesome but I don't see anything strikingly new coming from them.

jezvin · September 2010

Know what, I'm going to go with this question is one that cannot truly be answered until the release of the game. To fully see the impact that the events have on the world you would have to play through the game.

Their inovation seems to be tied directly to their entire game world and not so much the actual system of dynamic events.

We cannot answer it until we have explored every corner of GW2.

Which is why i'm having a hard time seeing them walk the walk with the inovation comment I thnk.

Thanks for response

Loke666 · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin
It seems like they just took what is public quest and made them longer.

They have even said it themselves it's not 100% a change. All the dynamic events will eventually reset back to the way it was at the start.

Sure WAR PQs were tiny and dull, dynamic events sound like they are going to be huge and awesome but I don't see anything strikingly new coming from them.

The event change will get back to again eventually yes. But that is due to player interaction. If players do nothing the event will only reset when the servers go down and things will stay as worst possibly until then.

You can say that it is a whole bunch of scaling PQs that are linked to eachother, but that in itself is something that never has been done. And for that matter did actually ANET announce this system a while before WAR did even if WAR released 2 years earlier (they announced it in PC gamer 2007, WAR did as far as I know not tell the world about this until later). Not that it really matters.

But scaling public events in itself is a step forward, the reason they sucked in WAR was the fact that you need enough people or it will fail, here it is supposed to be as hard if you are 5 people or 50.

Loke666 · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin
Know what, I'm going to go with this question is one that cannot truly be answered until the release of the game. To fully see the impact that the events have on the world you would have to play through the game.

Their inovation seems to be tied directly to their entire game world and not so much the actual system of dynamic events.

We cannot answer it until we have explored every corner of GW2.

Which is why i'm having a hard time seeing them walk the walk with the inovation comment I thnk.

Thanks for response

We don't need to play anything to see if it is innovative or not, that is too see if it is fun or not. And that is a totally different question that can't be answered now and even when we tried it the answer depends on who you are.

MMO.Maverick · September 2010

Dynamic Events are when you look at it an evolution of Public Quests, I'd describe the progression as this:

Quest => Public Quest => Dynamic Quest

Another poster a week or so earlier commented upon what the differences were between Public Quests and Dynamic Events, it goes like this:

'But even then there are very telling differences between Public Quests and Dynamic Events that are obvious even here, such as scaling (WAR PQs don't scale),

movability (WAR PQs don't move around),

chaining (WAR's PQs don't chain),

triggerability (WAR's PQs are always there),

persistent (WAR's PQ outcomes aren't persistent)'

And a nice elaboration of this is given in the next example that was given in one of the GW2 blog articles:

'Traditional quest systems involve walking up to a character who usually has an exclamation point or question mark hovering over their head and talking to them.

In Guild Wars 2, our event system won't make you read a huge quest description to find out what's going on. You'll experience it by seeing and hearing things in the world. If a dragon is attacking, you won't read three paragraphs telling you about it, you'll see buildings exploding in giant balls of fire, and hear characters in the game world screaming about a dragon attack. You'll hear guards from nearby cities trying to recruit players to go help fight the dragon, and see huge clouds of smoke in the distance, rising from the village under siege.

In GW2, the outcome of every event will directly affect the game world around you. If an enemy dredge army is marching out of their main base, players will be asked to mobilize with their allies and help destroy the army. If the dredge army is defeated, other events will cascade out from there. Players will be able battle their way inside the dredge base, face off against their commander, rescue captured friendly troops being held in the dredge prisons, and even hold the captured base while fighting waves of dredge, who arrive from deep underground to try and take back their home.

If, on the other hand, players fail to destroy the army, it will establish a fort in friendly player territory. From there, the dredge will send shipments of troops and supplies to the fort from the main base while building up walls, turrets, and siege engines to help defend it. Enemy dredge forces will then begin to move out from their newly established fort to attack friendly player locations in the area, sending snipers out into the hills, sending assault team forces to capture friendly player villages, and trying to smash down friendly fortifications with massive dredge walkers. All of these events continue to cascade out into further chains of events where cause and effect is directly related to the player's actions.

MumboJumbo · September 2010

1 Scaling - 1/few players can attempt them, but larger groups cause scaling: Increase activation of mobs skills, more mobs, more for all players to do, effectively even challenge for all groups (see Geoff grub interview)

2 Movability - Not confined to cause&effect in one part of the map, but can move around and have effects that lead to changes elsewhere.

3 Chaining - Are not isolated/separate events, but either an outcome or state reached will lead onto further outcomes eg "17/18" chains exist in at least one DE.

4 Triggerability - In a variety of ways: Talking to an NPC, moving an object apparently unrelated, players not taking any action about an event triggers another event, an event can trigger another DE or path into another DE.

5 Persistence - They stay in a state until some players' actions change them back or change the content on the map in other areas for other players eg Enemy mobs in The Charr base Steeleye Span. Persistent <> Permanent.

6 Even Rewards - Contribution must exceed a minimum for a medal (interchangeable intangible rewards) which if reached any/all players will receive depending on if they earn bronze, silver, gold. No lottery.

These features all innovate, improve and distinguish from Public Quests which although a good system were ultimately very limited by player population conditons. Quests < Public Quests < Dynamic Events.

Is it a large enough change to warrant a new name? Yes. Will it work as intended and not fall into some of the same problems PQ's had? Maybe, we'll have to wait and see.

Credit: PlinkPlonk

Edit: Cyphers sd help, worth stickying somewhere? Disclaimer: All features present to unknown degree or extent.

jezvin · September 2010

All the talk is great but the videos that they have released just didn't give a feel of somthing new it looked more of the same.

MumboJumbo · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin
All the talk is great but the videos that they have released just didn't give a feel of somthing new it looked more of the same.

I agree, killing worms in a field was so-so. Yet even that example did show a hint of promise:

a) People naturally helping without having to group or worry about grouping to be rewarded.

b) People reviving each other was cool and sense of comaraderie.

c) Other features variety such as throwing a glass jar of bees at some bandits in a field or putting out fires or watering crops.

d) NPC's shouting to get your attention (sound) or visual (fire starting up, water pumps in the fields not working).

e) Arriving at different stages of a DE provides a bit of variety.

These were all from the fields DE egs that create some choice of what you want to do based on what is happening on the screen not a check-list on the side of your screen.

Admittedly some of the classic quest features or units were present: Hacking 10 worms, scout with marker over head for ppl unsure what to do next, some speech bubbles with sidebar telling you about status of quest.

Overall, though at this stage, the major features are 1) present and accounted for, 2) Refined details of quests 3) A sense of a lot of activities going on making for an immersive world, was reported by plenty of ppl playing the demo.

For a theme-park MMO the PvE is looking the best I have ever seen.

rwmiller · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin
All the talk is great but the videos that they have released just didn't give a feel of somthing new it looked more of the same.

The videos are in effect just snippets of the game and of a moment and in time and can not show you the overall arc of the storyline and the impact of the choices that a character makes. Ultimately one needs to actually play the game to be able to put it all into context.

You say that Dynamic Events are just longer Public Quests which in effect weren't innovative either based on this logic as they are just bigger quests.

Innovation can take many forms and evolution is just as acceptable a way to innovate as revolution though it is obviously less radical and noticeable. You may disagree with the use of the term innovation but Arenanet with Guild Wars 2 is with out a doubt trying to introduce new ideas and game play into an existing frame work and mythology and as so far what they have done seems to be very interesting ( I was going to say innovative).

The unfortunate reality is that on a system with tens of thousands of players sharing the world you can't really allow much in the way of lasting permanent effect as the same people that get fun in being rude and griefing will simply run around causing as much havoc for others as they can. So far this idea of having a dynamic event with its results stretching out for longer period of time and it taking the world longer to recover and rebuild before repeating seems to be a good solution to the its 5:15, 5:30, 5:45, 6:00, etc goblin invasion train.

Seffren · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin
All the talk is great but the videos that they have released just didn't give a feel of somthing new it looked more of the same.

Yeah I also think innovation stopped at Pong.

Rodentofdoom · September 2010

Using the quest example given earlier ....

In ALL current mmo's PQ's and quests are static.

If you kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

If you don't kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

In GW2

If you don't kill 10 ogres the village is GONE

Are you spotting what's different yet ....... ??

Drakynn · September 2010

I am certianly not a GW2 fanboi but dynamic events certainly are an innovative way to deliver content in an MMO even if it is innovating by being a different take and evolution of the PQ system which was innovative itself in it's time.

How fun this game emchnaic is,how well it is implemented and how long it takes for players to accept ti as normal and get nonchalant about it(Which eventualyl happens to all things) can't be answered till we actually get to play the whole game for awhile.

jezvin · September 2010

Originally posted by Rodentofdoom
Using the quest example given earlier ....

In ALL current mmo's PQ's and quests are static.

If you kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

If you don't kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

In GW2

If you don't kill 10 ogres the village is GONE

you come and kill the 10 ogre later, the village is 100% the same as when we started.

Edit: Not to mention both of these "quests" are 100% the same only offering different rewards.

So ok they have some innovative stuff, but they still havn't innovated how quests work at their core in MMOs and I think thats what my problem is.

Their innovations are very high level, lets make the killing of the 10 ogres do this instead of that.

at the end of the day you still kill 10 ogres.

Your not saving the village your hitting the arbitary mark that is blatantly shown in the top right of your screen to make the next quest change.

It's very cold and mechanical just like any other quest in any other game.

Doktorian · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Rodentofdoom
Using the quest example given earlier ....

In ALL current mmo's PQ's and quests are static.

If you kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

If you don't kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

In GW2

If you don't kill 10 ogres the village is GONE

you come and kill the 10 ogre later, the village is 100% the same as when we started.

Edit: Not to mention both of these "quests" are 100% the same only offering different rewards.

So ok they have some innovative stuff, but they still havn't innovated how quests work at their core in MMOs and I think thats what my problem is.

Their innovations are very high level, lets make the killing of the 10 ogres do this instead of that.

at the end of the day you still kill 10 ogres.

Your not saving the village your hitting the arbitary mark that is blatantly shown in the top right of your screen to make the next quest change.

It's very cold and mechanical just like any other quest in any other game.

Well actually, after you kill the ogres the NPC's you start wandering back and try to rebuild, then there would be another event where you would have to protect the NPC's from waves of monsters, also, there would probably be a caravan coming from a big city with supplies to help rebuild it and that would be an event where you have to protect the caravan as it tries to reach the village.

This is something I personally have never seen in an MMO, or really any game. I have to say it's pretty innovative.

Edit: Also, you don't just kill a set number of monsters. They come in waves and the numbers are scaled up or down due to the amount of players in the area.

MumboJumbo · September 2010

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Rodentofdoom

Using the quest example given earlier ....

In ALL current mmo's PQ's and quests are static.

If you kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

If you don't kill 10 ogres, the village is still there

In GW2

If you don't kill 10 ogres the village is GONE

you come and kill the 10 ogre later, the village is 100% the same as when we started.

So ok they have some innovative stuff, but they still havn't innovated how quests work at their core in MMOs and I think thats what my problem is.

Their innovations are very high level, lets make the killing of the 10 ogres do this instead of that.

at the end of the day you still kill 10 ogres.

Your not saving the village your hitting the arbitary mark that is blatantly shown in the top right of your screen to make the next quest change.

It's very cold and mechanical just like any other quest in any other game.

One man's X is another man's Y...

I enjoy killing 10 Ogres who are invading a village. That's what these PvE MMO fantasy games are all about. But what I prefer, is NOT:

(1) 1 Story α 100 Ogres => 2nd Story α 100 Ogres, 50 Harpies, 20 Centaurs => Level Grind Up achieved.

What I prefer to DO:

(2) Content (kill 10 ogres & variations) α Story α xp/progress

I think that is where you are either saving the village, repairing the town pumps room, helping the farmer's problem is more in focus than watching your grind-meter rising is the real question.

That's fun PvE gameplay if you are sucked in by the action, story and world and forget the metrics for precious minutes/hours.

Senadina · September 2010

I don't think anyone has mentioned that failing/succeeding at the event will persistently change the world for a period of time. Fail to save the grain? No bread to buy in town until grain is recovered.

You sound like a tough sell here. Do you not want to kill mobs? Thats what an MMORPG boils down to. The reasoning for killing mobs, and the way its organic to the atmosphere of the world, is what is innovative. I loved WAR's PQ's, and obviously knew immediately that they would be copied, but this is a step forward IMO.

Alders · September 2010

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Rodentofdoom

One man's X is another man's Y...

I enjoy killing 10 Ogres who are invading a village. That's what these PvE MMO fantasy games are all about. But what I prefer, is NOT:

(1) 1 Story α 100 Ogres => 2nd Story α 100 Ogres, 50 Harpies, 20 Centaurs => Level Grind Up achieved.

What I prefer to DO:

(2) Content (kill 10 ogres & variations) α Story α xp/progress

I think that is where you are either saving the village, repairing the town pumps room, helping the farmer's problem is more in focus than watching your grind-meter rising is the real question.

That's fun PvE gameplay if you are sucked in by the action, story and world and forget the metrics for precious minutes/hours.

I couldn't have said it better myself, thank you. A game truely shines when you're sucked into what you're doing, instead of staring at your exp bar while killing pointless mobs. When you're done saving a village or completing a task and you say to yourself, "holy crap i'm level xx already, when did that happen?"

coldsky01 · September 2010

The Events can also intersect with each other and form a different chain than they usually do, I think (I'm not too sure about that last part). Also there are some hidden events that can tigger new ones and affect current ones of that zone.

I need to find the articles if I remember it correctly. Not too sure about my information, but I know that Events can interfere with each other.

natuxatu · September 2010

It looks like people have pretty much convered it but it IS innovative and exciting to many people.

Karbonoid · September 2010

I think it's a misconception to think that innovation is all about the basic concept or idea. Ideas are easy, anyone can have them, they are basically free . Having plenty of good ideas makes you a dreamer or perhaps a decent sci-fi author of futurist, but it doesn't make you an innovator.

Henry Ford did not invent the car, and he certainly didn't invent the assembly line, but he brought the two together in a rational way, he made a good implementation of ideas there were floating around already. Recognizing a good idea and knowing what to do with it and how is the true mark of the innovator. Ideas are cheap, easy and abundant, good implementations on the other hand are anything but.

Mythic certainly stumbled upon a good idea for their public quests, but they throughly botched the implementation. It's too early to say that the GW2 team have done it right, but from what I've seen so far it looks really promising.

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