Originally posted by stav1 4. Conclusion-The game is not ready for retail release.
In Australia our Trade Practices Law states that : A product at sale must be fit and merchantable for the purpose it was intended to be used in.
This product is an MMO game. In order to conform with Australian Trade Practices Law it will have to meet the above criterea plus a few more, regarding electronic transmissions etc, not really important to spell out.
What is important is that we have in writing from someone who could only be described as a rampant apologist for Mourning, admitting that the game is incomplete. Ergo the game is not fit for sale.
In Australia this constitutes a breach of the Trade Practices Act. If the company offering this product then went ahead and charged peoples credit cards on the basis of this being a released version of their product, this matter would most likely be refered to the Fraud Squad.
If this is indeed nothing more than a pay to play Beta, then they have done the usual woefuly poor job of announcing and managing it. If you say your product is "released" which they have, then the pre-order charges are for the final version. If the final version is still a beta, which it is, then that is saying one thing and doing another, that is fraud!
The reason being is that you cannot verbally agree away your rights to protect your credit card and bank details. You cannot waive your rights as a consumer under the trade practices act in this country (Australia).
I imagine there are similar laws in other countries that would put this product in exactly the same light.
So to claim that charging someone for a product then delivering a partial product is somehow acceptable practice is not only false its completely naieve and misleading.
Mourning has set a new precident of questionable behaviour in this industry and to use a Stav term it is "Admirable" for consumers to take every opportunity to call them to task over it. Rather than labouring under the mistaken and rosy beleif that supporting this behavior is somehow "admirable", it is not. It undermines the rights of consumers and the MMO public. Supporting this behaviour is to be berated at every opportunity.
Me and some others are doing it, we wil continue to do it. This is the top of a very slippery slope, if in a few years you can no longer trust anything MMO companies tell us, we will at least know where the trend started.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Hahaha! Funny! Well it appears this game is currently a little more stable then a pile of rubble. I hope they are financially stable enough to release game. I have a feeling DnL will OWN them in the end.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Originally posted by dingofx Hahaha! Funny! Well it appears this game is currently a little more stable then a pile of rubble. I hope they are financially stable enough to release game. I have a feeling DnL will OWN them in the end.
DnL will probably own them already if it comes out right now as it's beta state, Lol.
Originally posted by stav1 4. Conclusion-The game is not ready for retail release.
In Australia our Trade Practices Law states that : A product at sale must be fit and merchantable for the purpose it was intended to be used in.
This product is an MMO game. In order to conform with Australian Trade Practices Law it will have to meet the above criterea plus a few more, regarding electronic transmissions etc, not really important to spell out.
What is important is that we have in writing from someone who could only be described as a rampant apologist for Mourning, admitting that the game is incomplete. Ergo the game is not fit for sale.
In Australia this constitutes a breach of the Trade Practices Act. If the company offering this product then went ahead and charged peoples credit cards on the basis of this being a released version of their product, this matter would most likely be refered to the Fraud Squad.
If this is indeed nothing more than a pay to play Beta, then they have done the usual woefuly poor job of announcing and managing it. If you say your product is "released" which they have, then the pre-order charges are for the final version. If the final version is still a beta, which it is, then that is saying one thing and doing another, that is fraud!
The reason being is that you cannot verbally agree away your rights to protect your credit card and bank details. You cannot waive your rights as a consumer under the trade practices act in this country (Australia).
I imagine there are similar laws in other countries that would put this product in exactly the same light.
So to claim that charging someone for a product then delivering a partial product is somehow acceptable practice is not only false its completely naieve and misleading.
Mourning has set a new precident of questionable behaviour in this industry and to use a Stav term it is "Admirable" for consumers to take every opportunity to call them to task over it. Rather than labouring under the mistaken and rosy beleif that supporting this behavior is somehow "admirable", it is not. It undermines the rights of consumers and the MMO public. Supporting this behaviour is to be berated at every opportunity.
Me and some others are doing it, we wil continue to do it. This is the top of a very slippery slope, if in a few years you can no longer trust anything MMO companies tell us, we will at least know where the trend started.
Most consumer protection laws are long the same lines. However the fact that you can play a mmorpg as a mmorpg is probably sufficient to protect a publisher from liability. Proving that a car without an engine is not fit for its intended use may be clear cut but proving an (incomplete) mmorpg is not fit for its intended use is very very difficult.
Plus if the vendor has brought any defects to your attention that might make the product not fit for the intended use you had in mind, that would absolve him of liability.
So no you keep using the word "fraud" and "scam" and you will always be wrong on this account. i'm not a fanboi or an apologist for Mourning, i just want to tell it how it is. As i indeed have done - by focusing on the game which is incomplete.
You are incapable of taking an objective view of a subject - you and many like you are unable to now admit that you were wrong - that Mourning is not a scam and is not a fraud.
And don't lie to yourself. You're no crusader for the rights of the mmorpg-playing public -protecting them from evil publishers. You haven't been voicing any opinions about all the other incomplete mmorgs being released. Which is 99% of the them. Because if you were only making that argument, in relation to Mourning or any other mmorpg, i'd be agreeing with you.
And these Mourning posts are becomiong very tiresome. I don't want to have to continue correcting your uninformed view of the world.
I do as well but they have stated they have an official skin for it when the game goes final.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Really interesting read - How not to launch a pre-order campaign for an MMO game - in full 3D real life. They messed this up big time and continue to do so with an ineffective communication strategy, they need to do something drastic & quick to get anywhere near resolving this - what are the chances we'll see a Mourning free trial beta promotion?
I hope for the industry's sake they find a solution, it would be a real shame to lose yet another MMO, even if they did shoot themselves in the foot. I'm looking out for beta tester reviews and media previews before making a decision on playing this game. They made a mistake, a big one, but we all make mistakes right?
Originally posted by stav1 And don't lie to yourself. You're no crusader for the rights of the mmorpg-playing public -protecting them from evil publishers. You haven't been voicing any opinions about all the other incomplete mmorgs being released. Which is 99% of the them. Because if you were only making that argument, in relation to Mourning or any other mmorpg, i'd be agreeing with you.
The only difference being that none of the released games so far have charged people 1 - 4 weeks (Mournings words not mine) ahead of actually shipping the product people payed for. That has NEVER happened. The rest I dont argue with, mainly because its not the root of the argument its a distration you throw in to draw attention away from the fact that you pre-ordered against my and a dozen other peoples advice.
No amount of attacking me is going to wipe that egg off your face!
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by marca1 Really interesting read - How not to launch a pre-order campaign for an MMO game - in full 3D real life. They messed this up big time and continue to do so with an ineffective communication strategy, they need to do something drastic & quick to get anywhere near resolving this - what are the chances we'll see a Mourning free trial beta promotion? I hope for the industry's sake they find a solution, it would be a real shame to lose yet another MMO, even if they did shoot themselves in the foot. I'm looking out for beta tester reviews and media previews before making a decision on playing this game. They made a mistake, a big one, but we all make mistakes right? -Marca
I agree with Marca. This is a lesson on how not to launch a pre-order campaign for an MMO. This is what happens when you have lack of communication and poor management. Better get it together Mourning!
Sad thing is, Mourning is still the only real pvp game due out anytime soon... Darkfall?? Maybe, someday? Supposedly Hero's Journey will have a pvp server when it goes live. Not sure what Roma Victor's pvp is like.
But there's a REAL lack of pvp games right now, and a huge (small as a % of the total market, but I count anything over 100k people as "huge"!) market of people looking for a full pvp game. Very frustrating for us!
Any discussion about Mourning, is about the same as beating yourself in the head with a banana!
Is there really any point discussing beating yourself in the head with a banana?
If the answer is no, then my point is clear. But if you answer anything other than no, you should consider the fact that all MMOs, including anything that will be released over the next 5 years will be the same as everything so far. They will be no better and no worse. Unfortunaty that's the good news and the bad news.
The fact is that the MMO game genre is too new to produce anything of non-critical appeal. Hell, if you look at even the best of the Single Player RPGs out there, they're STILL crap. It's taken well over 100 years to perfect cars. Why should we expect anything less for a software that, in many cases, attempts to simulate life (regardless of epoc).
[I actually picture less pvp games being produced in the future. Mostly due to the fact that pvp tends to destory mmos. While I do think it is fun, I believe it has a big downside. With pvp comes alot of fighting about builds, classes, people just pking, and there is too many to list. Also it hard to picture a healer taking down a tank, sorry.
While morning may be the only 'new' mmo that has pvp. There are certainly others that have pvp and have been out for awhile.
ps sorry for any spelling or grammar problems...it is late.
Once you charge for a beta, well it no longer becomes a beta.
Sure you can use third party gimmicks like WoW did in allowing people who register with a third party site to have access to a certain number of open beta keys. But that was mostly a distribution move that was smart to help them manage the cost of the process and third party site benefitted from membership $.
That was also an announced open beta. I have not seen that here yet. Only a $30 to test situation without consent so far.
But when you outright charge a fee, a paying customer is hardly a beta tester and generally once you pay regulary to test, you will grow to have more and more expectations and demands on development- regardless of how good your intentions are now.
The ability to grow the fanbase at a fast rate will become an issue, because by openly admitting you are in a "Pay to beta" plan , you are elimating 40%-50% of your potential subscribers who will opt to wait til their expectations of when a final release is worth their $.
All games besides mmorpgs have paid beta testers. (this includes receiving a copy of the game at release instead of $)
The level of Quality Assurance that is needed for advanced software systems that balance user input, time and resource constraints, has never been the strong suit of a large community of voices.
You would need a team of many support people to take in the input from 5K or 10K pay-to-beta testers and manage implementation.
Or is the next step to "screen" all those who wish to pay to beta and only allow in certain number of people? How would that work?
How does this scale?
This is why mmorpgs use the closed and open beta stages of development instead of paying a team of testers- so they actually have some level of Quality Assurance in their software product
XeO3 - from the Mourning Forums (whos IQ may well be higher than that of the combined other posters on the board)
Wow, I think you're mistaken about who has screwed up the facts.
It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the developers to alpha and beta test their game. This applies to all games, console and PC, MMORPG or not. The term "free beta" is a despicable term, because no other form of beta testing exists, and charging for betatesting will not be permitted in the videogame industry. Put a period on THAT.
They do not "let people into beta as a gift". They NEED a certain number of people to play beta, and they invite them.
People do not pay for games until the game is released. Ever. It is up to the developers and publishers to make the investment and take the risk, not the fans and players. People may pre-order games, but they don't pay the full price and get handed whatever is finished.
Mourning is not just a cruddy EQ clone, it's attempting a business model that will NOT be permitted in this industry. It's insulting and more importantly, dangerous to allow this sort of thing to happen. It sets a precedent that allows good natured and honest fans to be taken for something they did not pay for, or flat out suckered into handing over cash for vaporware.
Anyone who preordered has a responsibility to report this to the BBB and dispute the charges until the game is finished. If you simply let this happen, you are potentially setting yourself up to be robbed, and you are helping to set a harmful precedent in the industry.
I suppose hes just lying about caring about this industry too ? Who would of thought there would be two people with nothing to gain from lying, lying about the same thing simultaneously. Its like "twilight zone music" style stuff isnt it ?
Alternatively you could beleive people who have agenuine financial stake in this like the Mourning team ? What do they stand to gain from their stories ? Only thousands of dollars maybe more.
What do posters like me and these two get out of it ? Nothing except being able to look back and know we tried to do something about dirty deals like this one.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by stav1 And don't lie to yourself. You're no crusader for the rights of the mmorpg-playing public -protecting them from evil publishers. You haven't been voicing any opinions about all the other incomplete mmorgs being released. Which is 99% of the them. Because if you were only making that argument, in relation to Mourning or any other mmorpg, i'd be agreeing with you.
The only difference being that none of the released games so far have charged people 1 - 4 weeks (Mournings words not mine) ahead of actually shipping the product people payed for. That has NEVER happened. The rest I dont argue with, mainly because its not the root of the argument its a distration you throw in to draw attention away from the fact that you pre-ordered against my and a dozen other peoples advice.
No amount of attacking me is going to wipe that egg off your face!
Definitely my final mail on this:
1. Mourning said that it would charge people who pre-ordered. Shipping is irrelevant. Get over it.
2. As i said in my earlier post (which you obviously didn't read), i did pre-order. Once i got into beta and saw the unfinished state of the game - i cancelled my pre-order. Simple as that- i haven't suffered any loss. And it was interesting to try the game even though it was incomplete.
So there is no "egg on my face"- rather others can see i am much more objective than you ever were or will be on this matter.
You've been proved wrong on the "scam" issue and so you need to try and save face. Whereas i haven't won or lost anything - I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.
I can listen (and agree) to people who think the game is unfinished, or don't like the UI etc. What i don't like is that you and a few others are still tryin to put the "fraud/scam" twist on all these stories. Frankly, you are only able to do so because these forums are unmoderated.
I did not read all 5 pages of this thread so if this has already been posted then sorry.
The guys over at Mourning have opened up their beta2 forums for all to read. testers only can write but anyone can read. I think that gives a pretty accurate picture of the game and shows a nice attitude by the devs. Obviously the game has a way to go yet , but it does seem as if they are trying. Supposedly the company that charged the orders early was fired, they removed the link for pre orders at least.
The devs are trying to make the PvP game they want to. They admit that the game is not ready for prime time. But the skill system combined with the way the devs have set up PvP will, i think, mean Mourning wil be a damn good game in 3+ months.
That's what we should be discussing, rather than all the mass hysteria about frauds etc.
Of course, this whole discussion might be moot if DnL releases (in a complete state) before Mourning has got its act together...
Who is discussing frauds? I really don't get that out of this thread.
What I do get out of it is "incompetent"
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Grunch Well when I say scam I dont entirley mean a totally fake blown out fraud. Its like some guy selling you a car telling you how great its going to be and then when you get it it has no engine or transmission basically you got scammed into buying that car.
This is the tone of the thread. Not explicit fraud, but some posters are implying that the game isn't in a state where it can be called a mmorpg. And therefore consumer protection laws would kick in. That somehow the consumer has been "robbed", that they were charged for a product which wasn't the product they expected to recieve and had no of getting out the sale contract.
That's definitely incorrect. Since pre-orders had a chance to play the incomplete beta and could cancel thereon.
That's really all i have a problem with ( I can handle the personal attacks), since i agree the devs have been incompetent in handling management of the game in the last 6 weeks or so and the game is unfinished.
These are not my screens but i've seen many of those places and i think they give you a way better image of the game than the crappy Mordu SS's.
Mourning is no EQ2 but definatly not ugly or to be compared with DAOC. The character models are not final btw.
About the gaem itself: Lots of lots of potential really. This game could be a fun PvP game sometime. One thing i have to say though. This game is very far away from a real release. If you are looking for a PvP MMORPG Mourning may be what you like but i wouldn't touch it in the next 6 months.
This game needs some more time. Atm it's a raw diamond. If it will be the PvP MMORPG we all hoped for or not only time will tell.
Originally posted by stav1 Originally posted by GrunchWell when I say scam I dont entirley mean a totally fake blown out fraud. Its like some guy selling you a car telling you how great its going to be and then when you get it it has no engine or transmission basically you got scammed into buying that car. This is the tone of the thread. Not explicit fraud, but some posters are implying that the game isn't in a state where it can be called a mmorpg. And therefore consumer protection laws would kick in. That somehow the consumer has been "robbed", that they were charged for a product which wasn't the product they expected to recieve and had no of getting out the sale contract. That's definitely incorrect. Since pre-orders had a chance to play the incomplete beta and could cancel thereon. That's really all i have a problem with ( I can handle the personal attacks), since i agree the devs have been incompetent in handling management of the game in the last 6 weeks or so and the game is unfinished. That was definitely my last post on this!
Um, thats far more on the Mourning forum then here. Also you mentioned that you felt with 3 more months development it would be considered complete to you. Can you explain to me ho wyou feel that so when there are whole chunks of the game and content that seem to be missing and it has taken what, 4 years for them to get out a game that was supposed to be out over a year ago? I am just trying to figure out what I am missing, I don't see how anyone could have any confidence in the staff to get anything done at this point, let alone timely. I mean lets keep this in perspective, this game is going on what, 2 years late now?
Also you only feel the dev's have been acting poorly the last 6 weeks. I don't understsand how you can say that considering the entire problem the game is in now is because of a lack of a business plan, the lack of forethought in their investor choices, the lack of research and concern on other services they used such as the CC company, etc. And thats not even looking at their public relations record since the beginning. You get banned for insulting someone there, yet they have a thread thats called " I'm a jackass and I've been banned.. ". You really sure you want to stick with just the last 6 weeks?
I am actually in the middle of the 2 sides even though I seem like I am all against morning probably. I think the game had a chance to be great, I think at this point however its too little too late. However, when Egomancer personally dodged everything I questioned him on and then accused me of possibly being a DnL developer I lost every shred of anything I may have had left for the development team.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Thoemse I am a Mourning betatester and i want to add my 2 cents.About graphics:clickyThese are not my screens but i've seen many of those places and i think they give you a way better image of the game than the crappy Mordu SS's.Mourning is no EQ2 but definatly not ugly or to be compared with DAOC. The character models are not final btw.About the gaem itself: Lots of lots of potential really. This game could be a fun PvP game sometime. One thing i have to say though. This game is very far away from a real release. If you are looking for a PvP MMORPG Mourning may be what you like but i wouldn't touch it in the next 6 months.This game needs some more time. Atm it's a raw diamond. If it will be the PvP MMORPG we all hoped for or not only time will tell.
Thanks for the input Tho, maybe you would like to add to what I just asked Stav1 then, my asking him how he could beleive that the game is gonna get there in time considering how long and overdue it has taken them to get the game to what many now consider an alpha and not even a beta? I can see how you would say its like a rough diamond now and i think I could even completely agree with it. But at this point how can you have any confidence in the team thats dealing with it, especially now with the financial issues that seem to have arisen?
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Fadeus Thanks for the input Tho, maybe you would like to add to what I just asked Stav1 then, my asking him how he could beleive that the game is gonna get there in time considering how long and overdue it has taken them to get the game to what many now consider an alpha and not even a beta? I can see how you would say its like a rough diamond now and i think I could even completely agree with it. But at this point how can you have any confidence in the team thats dealing with it, especially now with the financial issues that seem to have arisen?
I can't predict if they will manage or not but i saw them fixing many issues in the last 2 weeks. The game went from totally unplayable with tons of showstoppers (if you were lucky to get in) to stable and playable. The programmers themselves seem pretty capable IMO. A can't comment on their financial situation since i just don't know anything about that.
Fair nuff, thanks for your input on my questions. At the moment I am mostly concerned about some people that are willing to pay monthlies to be able to do work for the developers, that would set a HORRIBLE precedence in the industry. And it would also give them and many future developers a "get out of jail free card". I game would never have to be completely anymore, they could leave it in beta for years and never have to declare it complete.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Comments
In Australia our Trade Practices Law states that : A product at sale must be fit and merchantable for the purpose it was intended to be used in.
This product is an MMO game. In order to conform with Australian Trade Practices Law it will have to meet the above criterea plus a few more, regarding electronic transmissions etc, not really important to spell out.
What is important is that we have in writing from someone who could only be described as a rampant apologist for Mourning, admitting that the game is incomplete. Ergo the game is not fit for sale.
In Australia this constitutes a breach of the Trade Practices Act. If the company offering this product then went ahead and charged peoples credit cards on the basis of this being a released version of their product, this matter would most likely be refered to the Fraud Squad.
If this is indeed nothing more than a pay to play Beta, then they have done the usual woefuly poor job of announcing and managing it. If you say your product is "released" which they have, then the pre-order charges are for the final version. If the final version is still a beta, which it is, then that is saying one thing and doing another, that is fraud!
The reason being is that you cannot verbally agree away your rights to protect your credit card and bank details. You cannot waive your rights as a consumer under the trade practices act in this country (Australia).
I imagine there are similar laws in other countries that would put this product in exactly the same light.
So to claim that charging someone for a product then delivering a partial product is somehow acceptable practice is not only false its completely naieve and misleading.
Mourning has set a new precident of questionable behaviour in this industry and to use a Stav term it is "Admirable" for consumers to take every opportunity to call them to task over it. Rather than labouring under the mistaken and rosy beleif that supporting this behavior is somehow "admirable", it is not. It undermines the rights of consumers and the MMO public. Supporting this behaviour is to be berated at every opportunity.
Me and some others are doing it, we wil continue to do it. This is the top of a very slippery slope, if in a few years you can no longer trust anything MMO companies tell us, we will at least know where the trend started.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Thanks Malianea, for the first substantive beta tester review I've found. Boy what a train wreck.
Hahaha! Funny! Well it appears this game is currently a little more stable then a pile of rubble. I hope they are financially stable enough to release game. I have a feeling DnL will OWN them in the end.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Shadow Exile
DnL will probably own them already if it comes out right now as it's beta state, Lol.
Well...actually... yeah, i'm serious.
In Australia our Trade Practices Law states that : A product at sale must be fit and merchantable for the purpose it was intended to be used in.
This product is an MMO game. In order to conform with Australian Trade Practices Law it will have to meet the above criterea plus a few more, regarding electronic transmissions etc, not really important to spell out.
What is important is that we have in writing from someone who could only be described as a rampant apologist for Mourning, admitting that the game is incomplete. Ergo the game is not fit for sale.
In Australia this constitutes a breach of the Trade Practices Act. If the company offering this product then went ahead and charged peoples credit cards on the basis of this being a released version of their product, this matter would most likely be refered to the Fraud Squad.
If this is indeed nothing more than a pay to play Beta, then they have done the usual woefuly poor job of announcing and managing it. If you say your product is "released" which they have, then the pre-order charges are for the final version. If the final version is still a beta, which it is, then that is saying one thing and doing another, that is fraud!
The reason being is that you cannot verbally agree away your rights to protect your credit card and bank details. You cannot waive your rights as a consumer under the trade practices act in this country (Australia).
I imagine there are similar laws in other countries that would put this product in exactly the same light.
So to claim that charging someone for a product then delivering a partial product is somehow acceptable practice is not only false its completely naieve and misleading.
Mourning has set a new precident of questionable behaviour in this industry and to use a Stav term it is "Admirable" for consumers to take every opportunity to call them to task over it. Rather than labouring under the mistaken and rosy beleif that supporting this behavior is somehow "admirable", it is not. It undermines the rights of consumers and the MMO public. Supporting this behaviour is to be berated at every opportunity.
Me and some others are doing it, we wil continue to do it. This is the top of a very slippery slope, if in a few years you can no longer trust anything MMO companies tell us, we will at least know where the trend started.
Most consumer protection laws are long the same lines. However the fact that you can play a mmorpg as a mmorpg is probably sufficient to protect a publisher from liability. Proving that a car without an engine is not fit for its intended use may be clear cut but proving an (incomplete) mmorpg is not fit for its intended use is very very difficult.
Plus if the vendor has brought any defects to your attention that might make the product not fit for the intended use you had in mind, that would absolve him of liability.
So no you keep using the word "fraud" and "scam" and you will always be wrong on this account. i'm not a fanboi or an apologist for Mourning, i just want to tell it how it is. As i indeed have done - by focusing on the game which is incomplete.
You are incapable of taking an objective view of a subject - you and many like you are unable to now admit that you were wrong - that Mourning is not a scam and is not a fraud.
And don't lie to yourself. You're no crusader for the rights of the mmorpg-playing public -protecting them from evil publishers. You haven't been voicing any opinions about all the other incomplete mmorgs being released. Which is 99% of the them. Because if you were only making that argument, in relation to Mourning or any other mmorpg, i'd be agreeing with you.
And these Mourning posts are becomiong very tiresome. I don't want to have to continue correcting your uninformed view of the world.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that UI looks horrendous?
I do as well but they have stated they have an official skin for it when the game goes final.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Really interesting read - How not to launch a pre-order campaign for an MMO game - in full 3D real life. They messed this up big time and continue to do so with an ineffective communication strategy, they need to do something drastic & quick to get anywhere near resolving this - what are the chances we'll see a Mourning free trial beta promotion?
I hope for the industry's sake they find a solution, it would be a real shame to lose yet another MMO, even if they did shoot themselves in the foot. I'm looking out for beta tester reviews and media previews before making a decision on playing this game. They made a mistake, a big one, but we all make mistakes right?
-Marca
The only difference being that none of the released games so far have charged people 1 - 4 weeks (Mournings words not mine) ahead of actually shipping the product people payed for. That has NEVER happened. The rest I dont argue with, mainly because its not the root of the argument its a distration you throw in to draw attention away from the fact that you pre-ordered against my and a dozen other peoples advice.
No amount of attacking me is going to wipe that egg off your face!
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I agree with Marca. This is a lesson on how not to launch a pre-order campaign for an MMO. This is what happens when you have lack of communication and poor management. Better get it together Mourning!
Shadow Exile
Sad thing is, Mourning is still the only real pvp game due out anytime soon... Darkfall?? Maybe, someday? Supposedly Hero's Journey will have a pvp server when it goes live. Not sure what Roma Victor's pvp is like.
But there's a REAL lack of pvp games right now, and a huge (small as a % of the total market, but I count anything over 100k people as "huge"!) market of people looking for a full pvp game. Very frustrating for us!
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
Hello All,
Any discussion about Mourning, is about the same as beating yourself in the head with a banana!
Is there really any point discussing beating yourself in the head with a banana?
If the answer is no, then my point is clear. But if you answer anything other than no, you should consider the fact that all MMOs, including anything that will be released over the next 5 years will be the same as everything so far. They will be no better and no worse. Unfortunaty that's the good news and the bad news.
The fact is that the MMO game genre is too new to produce anything of non-critical appeal. Hell, if you look at even the best of the Single Player RPGs out there, they're STILL crap. It's taken well over 100 years to perfect cars. Why should we expect anything less for a software that, in many cases, attempts to simulate life (regardless of epoc).
All I can say is Bah-humbug!
Carrara
[I actually picture less pvp games being produced in the future. Mostly due to the fact that pvp tends to destory mmos. While I do think it is fun, I believe it has a big downside. With pvp comes alot of fighting about builds, classes, people just pking, and there is too many to list. Also it hard to picture a healer taking down a tank, sorry.
While morning may be the only 'new' mmo that has pvp. There are certainly others that have pvp and have been out for awhile.
ps sorry for any spelling or grammar problems...it is late.
Now here is a summation that has been written by somoene with a far higher grasp of both english and the situation than my pathetic "monkey chatter"
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Quote : Ellowyn (Mourning Forums /04/13/05)
I for one am tired of hearing the phrase "pay for beta" being tossed around.
Has anyone official from the Publisher's side said this?
One must have a grasp of what a beta test is.
Here is a list of a dozen or so definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...efine:Beta+test
note the phrase "prior to commercial release".
Once you charge for a beta, well it no longer becomes a beta.
Sure you can use third party gimmicks like WoW did in allowing people who register with a third party site to have access to a certain number of open beta keys. But that was mostly a distribution move that was smart to help them manage the cost of the process and third party site benefitted from membership $.
That was also an announced open beta. I have not seen that here yet. Only a $30 to test situation without consent so far.
But when you outright charge a fee, a paying customer is hardly a beta tester and generally once you pay regulary to test, you will grow to have more and more expectations and demands on development- regardless of how good your intentions are now.
The ability to grow the fanbase at a fast rate will become an issue, because by openly admitting you are in a "Pay to beta" plan , you are elimating 40%-50% of your potential subscribers who will opt to wait til their expectations of when a final release is worth their $.
All games besides mmorpgs have paid beta testers. (this includes receiving a copy of the game at release instead of $)
The level of Quality Assurance that is needed for advanced software systems that balance user input, time and resource constraints, has never been the strong suit of a large community of voices.
You would need a team of many support people to take in the input from 5K or 10K pay-to-beta testers and manage implementation.
Or is the next step to "screen" all those who wish to pay to beta and only allow in certain number of people? How would that work?
How does this scale?
This is why mmorpgs use the closed and open beta stages of development instead of paying a team of testers- so they actually have some level of Quality Assurance in their software product
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Yup that sums it all up quite nicely.
And if that wasnt enough :
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XeO3 - from the Mourning Forums (whos IQ may well be higher than that of the combined other posters on the board)
Wow, I think you're mistaken about who has screwed up the facts.
It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the developers to alpha and beta test their game. This applies to all games, console and PC, MMORPG or not. The term "free beta" is a despicable term, because no other form of beta testing exists, and charging for betatesting will not be permitted in the videogame industry. Put a period on THAT.
They do not "let people into beta as a gift". They NEED a certain number of people to play beta, and they invite them.
People do not pay for games until the game is released. Ever. It is up to the developers and publishers to make the investment and take the risk, not the fans and players. People may pre-order games, but they don't pay the full price and get handed whatever is finished.
Mourning is not just a cruddy EQ clone, it's attempting a business model that will NOT be permitted in this industry. It's insulting and more importantly, dangerous to allow this sort of thing to happen. It sets a precedent that allows good natured and honest fans to be taken for something they did not pay for, or flat out suckered into handing over cash for vaporware.
Anyone who preordered has a responsibility to report this to the BBB and dispute the charges until the game is finished. If you simply let this happen, you are potentially setting yourself up to be robbed, and you are helping to set a harmful precedent in the industry.
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I suppose hes just lying about caring about this industry too ? Who would of thought there would be two people with nothing to gain from lying, lying about the same thing simultaneously. Its like "twilight zone music" style stuff isnt it ?
Alternatively you could beleive people who have agenuine financial stake in this like the Mourning team ? What do they stand to gain from their stories ? Only thousands of dollars maybe more.
What do posters like me and these two get out of it ? Nothing except being able to look back and know we tried to do something about dirty deals like this one.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The only difference being that none of the released games so far have charged people 1 - 4 weeks (Mournings words not mine) ahead of actually shipping the product people payed for. That has NEVER happened. The rest I dont argue with, mainly because its not the root of the argument its a distration you throw in to draw attention away from the fact that you pre-ordered against my and a dozen other peoples advice.
No amount of attacking me is going to wipe that egg off your face!
Definitely my final mail on this:
1. Mourning said that it would charge people who pre-ordered. Shipping is irrelevant. Get over it.
2. As i said in my earlier post (which you obviously didn't read), i did pre-order. Once i got into beta and saw the unfinished state of the game - i cancelled my pre-order. Simple as that- i haven't suffered any loss. And it was interesting to try the game even though it was incomplete.
So there is no "egg on my face"- rather others can see i am much more objective than you ever were or will be on this matter.
You've been proved wrong on the "scam" issue and so you need to try and save face. Whereas i haven't won or lost anything - I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.
I can listen (and agree) to people who think the game is unfinished, or don't like the UI etc. What i don't like is that you and a few others are still tryin to put the "fraud/scam" twist on all these stories. Frankly, you are only able to do so because these forums are unmoderated.
I did not read all 5 pages of this thread so if this has already been posted then sorry.
The guys over at Mourning have opened up their beta2 forums for all to read. testers only can write but anyone can read. I think that gives a pretty accurate picture of the game and shows a nice attitude by the devs. Obviously the game has a way to go yet , but it does seem as if they are trying. Supposedly the company that charged the orders early was fired, they removed the link for pre orders at least.
Anyway here is the link for the beta 2 forums http://www.realmsoftorment.net/forums/forumdisplay.php3?s=671151921b26e488387a3fbc32be5505&forumid=450
I miss DAoC
See that's the real problem.
The devs are trying to make the PvP game they want to. They admit that the game is not ready for prime time. But the skill system combined with the way the devs have set up PvP will, i think, mean Mourning wil be a damn good game in 3+ months.
That's what we should be discussing, rather than all the mass hysteria about frauds etc.
Of course, this whole discussion might be moot if DnL releases (in a complete state) before Mourning has got its act together...
Who is discussing frauds? I really don't get that out of this thread.
What I do get out of it is "incompetent"
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
This is the tone of the thread. Not explicit fraud, but some posters are implying that the game isn't in a state where it can be called a mmorpg. And therefore consumer protection laws would kick in. That somehow the consumer has been "robbed", that they were charged for a product which wasn't the product they expected to recieve and had no of getting out the sale contract.
That's definitely incorrect. Since pre-orders had a chance to play the incomplete beta and could cancel thereon.
That's really all i have a problem with ( I can handle the personal attacks), since i agree the devs have been incompetent in handling management of the game in the last 6 weeks or so and the game is unfinished.
That was definitely my last post on this!
I am a Mourning betatester and i want to add my 2 cents.
About graphics:
clicky
These are not my screens but i've seen many of those places and i think they give you a way better image of the game than the crappy Mordu SS's.
Mourning is no EQ2 but definatly not ugly or to be compared with DAOC.
The character models are not final btw.
About the gaem itself: Lots of lots of potential really. This game could be a fun PvP game sometime.
One thing i have to say though. This game is very far away from a real release.
If you are looking for a PvP MMORPG Mourning may be what you like but i wouldn't touch it in the next 6 months.
This game needs some more time. Atm it's a raw diamond.
If it will be the PvP MMORPG we all hoped for or not only time will tell.
Um, thats far more on the Mourning forum then here. Also you mentioned that you felt with 3 more months development it would be considered complete to you. Can you explain to me ho wyou feel that so when there are whole chunks of the game and content that seem to be missing and it has taken what, 4 years for them to get out a game that was supposed to be out over a year ago? I am just trying to figure out what I am missing, I don't see how anyone could have any confidence in the staff to get anything done at this point, let alone timely. I mean lets keep this in perspective, this game is going on what, 2 years late now?
Also you only feel the dev's have been acting poorly the last 6 weeks. I don't understsand how you can say that considering the entire problem the game is in now is because of a lack of a business plan, the lack of forethought in their investor choices, the lack of research and concern on other services they used such as the CC company, etc. And thats not even looking at their public relations record since the beginning. You get banned for insulting someone there, yet they have a thread thats called " I'm a jackass and I've been banned.. ". You really sure you want to stick with just the last 6 weeks?
I am actually in the middle of the 2 sides even though I seem like I am all against morning probably. I think the game had a chance to be great, I think at this point however its too little too late. However, when Egomancer personally dodged everything I questioned him on and then accused me of possibly being a DnL developer I lost every shred of anything I may have had left for the development team.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Thanks for the input Tho, maybe you would like to add to what I just asked Stav1 then, my asking him how he could beleive that the game is gonna get there in time considering how long and overdue it has taken them to get the game to what many now consider an alpha and not even a beta? I can see how you would say its like a rough diamond now and i think I could even completely agree with it. But at this point how can you have any confidence in the team thats dealing with it, especially now with the financial issues that seem to have arisen?
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I can't predict if they will manage or not but i saw them fixing many issues in the last 2 weeks. The game went from totally unplayable with tons of showstoppers (if you were lucky to get in) to stable and playable.
The programmers themselves seem pretty capable IMO.
A can't comment on their financial situation since i just don't know anything about that.
Fair nuff, thanks for your input on my questions. At the moment I am mostly concerned about some people that are willing to pay monthlies to be able to do work for the developers, that would set a HORRIBLE precedence in the industry. And it would also give them and many future developers a "get out of jail free card". I game would never have to be completely anymore, they could leave it in beta for years and never have to declare it complete.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World