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Disappointments
Masa1
Member UncommonPosts: 318
Attributes:
They're way too generic. They're not even interesting. It's BORING. I mean... WHY ruin a good system GW1 had. For those of you who don't know anything about it, here's a short list:
Strength: More damage for MELEE skills.
Agility: More damage for RANGED skills.
Intelligence: More damage for SPELLS.
Vitality: Higher max HP.
Willpower: Higher max MP.
Perception: More critical damage.
I don't understand.. when WoW notices the faults of their stat system (they're going to change Intelligence to spell damage for example) GW2 comes and implements the old version. Sure it sounds cool to have higher intelligence, but WHY IT ONLY GIVES 1 THING FOR ME (in this case more damage for spells).
I don't really care whether they'll make extremely simple stats or not.. but I do care if they try to HIDE something extremely simple with a generic "stat name".
It's also lame that about half of the stats are USELESS for each profession. Warrior or ranger doesn't gain anything from intelligence for example.
I hope that they add more bonuses into each stat OR at least change the names to suit different professions. I also hope that every stat becomes uselful for each profession.
Traits:
Just a few words about traits. They've promised to create unique traits. They still want us to believe that there will be lots of them. The demo on the other hand has traits of which 90% are just "more x for y if z". Hopefully that changes.
Comments
Can I change these attributes whenever I want?
I really hope they are not permanent.
SexuaLobster's Grease Portal
Yes. This has been confirmed a while ago
I'm not at all happy with the atributes either though, they're always talking about how ranged damage isn't something secundary for a warrior(or melee for a ranger), but in the end you're worse off anyway because you have to spread your atributes more than a pure melee warrior or a pure ranged ranger.
@Kwintpod
Thanks.
To OP
Indeed the Attribute names was way better in GW1.
SexuaLobster's Grease Portal
This sounds like any other class based game out there and pretty much like what Anet described previous to this information being released. Almost every class based game forces you to specialize, generally along the lines of your classes specialty. I don't understand what you think they are trying to "hide." In addition "melee" classes generaly gain nothing from intelligence or its variation in any game. Generally speaking you would not want all the stats viable to you because you only have so many points to spend and would not want to be forced into alloting them in every attribute. The names of the stats sound like what they are so I have no problem with them.
Steam: Neph
A hybrid class will always be a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. As a warrior you seriously can't expect to wear the best armor and be able to deal the best ranged and melee damage. You can't expect to be the best at everything. That would be ridiculously imbalanced especially considering the strong pvp elements present in the game. Ranged damage isn't limited for a Warrior if you spec for ranged damage. By the same token, melee damage isn't limited for you if you spec for it. In the end, this is a class based game, therefore there will be specialization. If you make a hybrid you may have lower melee damage than a full melee warrior, however you would still probably have that same warrior beat at range.
Steam: Neph
Read my post again and you'll see what i meant by "hiding". For example "Gives x Agility" is just an another way of saying "+Ranged skill damage". Agility doesn't actually make my hero any more agile.. it ONLY affects my ranged skills.
Since we are talking about ArenaNet I had higher expectations. Sure it may be written into the holy bible of MMORPGs that we must have general stats and characters MUST have useless stats (like you said), but ANet did it differently in GW1. Why copy paste the most generic attribute system there is, when you already implemented something unique in previous game?
There was a point why the attribute system was made more general. If you placed the attribute system of gw1 into gw2 it would completely defeat the purpose of the adaptability of gw2. In gw1 you could only effectively use two or three attibutes one of which was normally taken up by your primary attribute with many only focusing on two due to restriction in the number of points.
The freedom of weapon switching and the changing of attributes as well as the general freedom of builds would all be useless if you could only spec one weapon or one element. The old attribute system serves np real purpose in gw2 apart from restrcting players so a generic attribute system was the sacrifice made for adaptability.
Wrong. They've already said that "The ranger is a jack-of-all-trades and a master of them all as well". I guess that you could say that ranger is a hybrid class (melee + ranged). I couldn't bother to read the rest of the text.
Source of quote: http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/
There's a difference between literary license and reality...clearly there is never going to be one intended class that is "master of everything"...
I guess so, but you could do things differently. Some people see just what has been given to them. GW2 gave an attribute system. They decided to create separate stats for melee, ranged and magic. So now.. since it's already in the demo, people take it for granted. It could've been something different.
1 example: Str / Agi / Int replaced with just 1 stat which increases the power of skills. Of course it shouldn't be so powerful. To make some stat variation (we don't want everyone to take 999 power) there could be new stats which boost different aspects of skills, for example buff duration, animation speed, casting time, ...
I don't think it is so much about having useless stats as it is about having a limited pool of points to spend and not having to spend them in every single stat. Why allow stat distribution at all if every stat is viable? Add X points to each stat automatically as you level up and remove stat distribution all together. Then the complaint would be about inability to adjust a class to yoru liking. In GW1, a player did not spend points in all six areas they are able to. Generally you went with 2 or three stats and focused on them. The same "useless stat" argument you present existed there depending on your build, just as it will in GW2. I agree that the attribute names are generic, but these are the same names we have seen since PnP RPGs. In addition, the same "hiding" you describe has existed since then as well. For example, and I know this is not 100% dead on because I haven't played in 10 yrs+, in D&D PnP higher intelligence did not provide stats that were indicative of your characters higher intelligence (more spell dmg and the like), this was an element that was roleplayed out. I see what you are saying though.
Steam: Neph
In case you haven't notice, it does that already, in some sense.
In GW1, you have to spec STR and Swordmanship to specialize in sword, then respec to specialize Axe, then respec for hammer. In GW2, STR boosts whatever melee weapon you are wielding.
But I do get what you're saying. Since the characters are already separated by profession, it's redundant to separated them even further by attributes. Because obviously it would be silly for an Elementalist to spec STR or a warrior to spec Intelligence.
Ready for GW2!!!
sorry kids we don't know enough about attributes yet in my opinion. but from what we do know it sounds just like guild wars 1 attribute system only now it can be used by muliple classes. All it it really is is a mulitclass attribute in addition to the specific ones they have with traits and stuff. Again, it's not so much having an ele use STR but more having the ability to have a ele and mesmer both use INT
It's good agility affects ranged damage and not some actual agility stat or whatever. This is right in line with how Guild Wars 1 works so I don't see how you could possibly be disappointed by that. This makes it more like Guild Wars and less like your stat heavy, so called generic WoW.
Attributes are sadly used in all MMOs. In a pen and paper RPG they are often the most important things in the game followed by skills.
In MMOs gear are more important than any skill, trait, attribute or feat. That is kinda sad because a character in a Pen and paper RPG is a lot more special since he is defined about a lot of things the player have chosen for him while a MMO character generally is defined by class, level, gear and possibly specc. XP and gear is the only really important thing in a MMO.
GW2 is not much better or worse than the rest. My hopes in this aspect of gaming goes to CCPs World of darkness online and maybe to Biowares TOR, they might inject some fresh blood into a genre where many mechanics havn't evolved at all since Meridian.
GW2 is very innovative in other ways however and I am sure it will be a great game but this they could have done better. And to assume a single game will change everything might be a bit naive, I think several games will pioneer different new things and then someone like Blizzard or a similar company will puzzle the things together to a single game.
But it is of course possible that one game will change everything also... But it wont be GW2, TOR or any of the others we actually seen demos of, they have new things in them but also many old things.
That's just a class description. Clearly they cannot be a master of all of them due to a limited number of attribute points being available.
Steam: Neph
I like the simplicity. There's no question what the stat will do for your character and how important it will be to you.
Plus - you can change them.
The only difference between the GW1 and these stats are the generic nature of the names. In GW1 most stats only affected the values for skills within the stats line of skills. The primary for the class had an additional effect (armor penetration for example). Those secondary effects are now provided by traits. Want a skill to do more damage or have a greater duration? Dump into the appropriate stat.
All games make you choose where you want your strengths and weaknesses.
In my opinion, this is a non issue born out of perception rather than reality.
People can't just accept the fact that GW1 and GW2 are 2 totally different games that happen to play in the same fantasy world. and share the same lore.... thats about it that they share tough.
So please stop comparing the games... Its as silly as comparing GW2 to WAR or WOW
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
To me, this isn't even a legitimate complaint. In GW1 if you played an Elementalist... you would choose between Air/Fire/Water/Earth/Energy Storage - First of all, that is a limitation. Second of all, what is so bad about having a deeper customization from traits. If the traits are simply, "Make X ability more powerful" then they aren't much different than GW1 anyways. Stating your gear is an important angle as well.
All in all, GW2 has better and more immersive customization than GW1. It's just labelled differently. If any one views this... system as a negative. I am afraid you don't quite know what you are looking for in a game.
EVE online had an extremely intuitive stat system, where you could essentially plus a skill in the "learning queue" and you would continue to learn it on or offline. I loved that system, but the fact is - that system is for EVE only. GW2 aims to be easy to pick up, easy to catch up to your friends, hard to master. I like this, it provides a more fleshed out and practiced community, which is especially important in a PvP game.
I just can't understand the incredible emphasis on stats, the fact is - you have a way to work your Damage, Health, Resource, Crit as a stat. You are speccing simply, but in exactly what you need and want to spec in. It's simplified, but come on - who cares.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
^
Voice of reason.
Playing:
Lotro
Have Played:
EQII,DAOC,SWG,COH,EQ,DDO, Lotro,AoC, EvE,Guild Wars,
Silkroad Online,Aion,and WoW
Favorite of all time: WoW
Waiting on:Swtor,Gw2, and Tera
Just as a counter - maybe they're designing the game so a ranger with high INT will take magic bow skills, or trap skills, or beastie skills, or whatever.
I do agree that the old GW had it better when it comes to naming things, but we do need to wait and see how all of this turns out.
That said, I do agree with the general mood that GW2 is sliding well away from what made GW great, and more towards making it a generic MMO that happens to share the same setting as the original GW.
-Jeff
Masa,
I would like to add in my views on this topic. I really think you need to understand that traditionally stats usually means a + to something and in effect changes how your character plays and what it's weaknesses are. The problem with this is that means that your character, even before it has engaged in combat, has great chunks of weakness to overcompensate for a stat that brings come kind of strength. For example: In Vanilla World of Warcraft, you had items that + to healing and + to DPS. As a caster, you had to constantly tailor your character through gear to either have a good size mana pool and a solid critical strike chance but lacked mana regeneration. I had to collect two types of gear; one for healing and for DPS. The problem I see with too much focus on trying to force feed players with branching stats that too narrowly focus on one aspect of your character is that you either rely too much on gear and/or you change the way that you play which might not be how you prefer to play. For example: If you have a ranger that not only needs agility but strength and perhaps wisdom/intellect as well you may choose to focus on more damaging shots but because you neglect wisdom/intellect you find yourself hesistant using your big mana intensive shots as much as you would like to.
The thing that people have not brought to attention in this topic is that the Guild Wars 2 dev team have stressed that enemies will have differing AI and different combat strategies and that players will have skills and strategies to combat them with. One good example is that players can use dodge in their combat manually instead of the traditional +25% chance to dodge which the player has no real degree of control with. I think you may very well be surprised that there doesn't need to be stats that are overcomplicated because the combat is engaging and you as a player have the different skills of your profession as well as how you react in combat. I think this is the most important thing. Having an engaging and reactive combat system is where the fun is and this is what the dev team are trying to focus on rather than in a traditional sense having players too restriced on how they play because of how their stats effect their character.
One final note, nothing is set in stone at the moment and we still don't know how character development is progressing and what changes there will be. I am confident though that the direction they are taking is a positive one. After all, I want a more fluid and engaging combat experience, be it a small bear or a huge boss. Variety is flavour.
I would like to add that you are basing all of your opinions on that.....GW2 will be an exact clone of GW1......seems to me they revamped their system a little in all the videos i have seen, in fact you can actually see all the attributes at one point in one of the videos, including mouseover...
I can live with it. After all, it only affects combat and not your character's actual physical appearance, intelligence, or personality.
But if it bothers ppl that much, have them change it to something simple such as:
Melee: Invest in this attribute and your melee attacks become stronger
Range: Invest in this attribute and your ranged attacks become stronger
Magic: Invest in this attribute and your spells become more effective
Vitality: Invest in this attribute and your max hp increases
Capacity/Stamina: Invest in this attribute and your max energy increases
Perception/Critical Strikes: Invest in this attribute and you gain a higher chance to inflict a critical hit
"Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet." -Bob Marley
I'm probably one of those people who just get wet.
I'm not crazy about the stats system, nor am I crazy about levels or classes. I don't think a game requires these 'standard' elements to be enjoyable. On the other hand, I've seen some the wild stuff that ANet has been working on and a lot of it has blown me away. So I'm reserving my judgment as to just how these stats will be used. Who knows what purpose they might serve beyond the expected combat bonuses. They've been layering all sorts of interesting new systems, on top of one another, with some really nifty results, so stats may do the same.
Either way, this game is going to @#$%! rock ... I can handle an elementary stats system if it's a means to all the other sweet stuff.