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Understanding the Differences in PC and Console Development
ProfRed
Member UncommonPosts: 3,495
It seems like a ton of people don't understand the differences in PC and Console development so this is just meant to be a way to discuss the differences. The key differences are the Ram usage and the UI. There are others but these 2 seems to be the most game altering so I will mainly focus on these.
Ram -
The amount of video and memory ram on a console is very limited compared to the massive amounts gamers put onto their PC's. Imagine trying to fit one of the massive graphic card bricks in many gamers PC into a little console and also efficiently cool it. This is the key problem that caused the delay in the PS3 version launching with the PC. This is a huge limitation when setting out to create a MMORPG on a console. Especially one with streaming content. Only so much data can be placed into ram at a time. FFXIV has many systems to alleviate this and make an MMORPG that can be played on both systems. One system is their polygon shaving/model morphing system that allows for the same model data to be stored in ram but create a ton of different looking armors and items. When you have the potential to have 30 people on your screen every one of those 30 peoples armor items have to be stored in ram so that you can see them. This system helps with that. More on it can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0ilSksWBQ
There are also some limitations with world data. These have been brought up on these forums in a very negative light and it seems that many don't understand why this is needed and write it off as devs being lazy and trying to milk the playerbase. The map data has sections that are reused in the same environment. Things like fishing holes, some ramps, and environmental clusters. The data or cluster only has to be in ram once and then reused in multiple areas to create a larger streaming world map that can be displayed on Console without going over the ram requirements and keeping the game smooth and playable on a Console.
UI -
When developing a UI for use with a controller there are many limitations and oversights when accessing the same UI with a mouse and keyboard. The two are like night and day. A controller requires nested menus where actions can take 1-6 selections drillling down into the menu. It is a goal of any GUI developer to make the menus as shallowly nested as possible, but with an MMO the amount of menu options is rather large and this can be difficult. When using a mouse and keyboard there is no need for any nesting. Most menus are best designed with 1-2 levels of nested menus maximum. If you sit down and try to design a universal GUI for keyboard and mouse and also for controller that will look professional and on par with current stylized console menus you will realize it can be quite difficult.
There are obvious oversights that SE has come across such as hardware mouse and keymapping that are only needed with the PC version and is not a universal development effort. Also the ability to alt-tab is a PC only oversight that applies to FFXIV and FFXI. Luckily 3rd party applications already exist to allow for hardware mouse, alt tabbing, and keymapping. It is a shame that the developer did not create them but I understand that it might not be the highest on their priority list when developing a title for two platforms. I think that their main focus has to be on parts of the universal game that apply to both PC and Console versions.
Gameplay -
When creating a game that applies to PC and Consoles simultaneously on the same servers the target audience will become unclear and mixed. Console gamers spend less time and would likely not put up with a long grind with very little reward put in for time involved. This will create game systems that pure PC MMO's would not normally have. Things like the XP curve over time to reach a goal can be altered to reward more casual play that exists with console gamers. This results in something like the Fatigue system. Leves and quick modular gameplay are required for console gamers. The ability to jump in and play for 30 minutes solo or 4 hours in a group is needed and that is where the leve system can shine. This can definitely come off as very limiting to PC MMO gamers who are used to long play sessions, grinds, and a more open and configurable experience.
Summary -
I realize that this is a PC gaming forum and a genre dominated by PC games. It is hard to comprehend the differences in developing an MMORPG for both platforms at the same time. It does create large differences in the end product and it always will as more MMORPG's are developed on both platforms. There really aren't many titles to base this on and understand it conceptually, but in my opinion it is a great thing to push MMORPG's onto consoles which can now fully handle them. Many may want different builds and to seperate the player bases so that the PC and Console versions are more tailored towards them and not universal, but there are likely just as many if not more that are attracted to the fact that the game can be played by one friend on PC and another on a Console and they can play together and share an experience. A huge draw to FFXI and XIV for me are the ability to play on multiple platforms on worldwide servers.
I am sure the devs understand as I do that this will feel limiting and may put off hard core PC MMO gamers, but that is clearly not the entire target audience and not who this game was designed entirely for or around. This may be hard to understand but the game simply may not be for you if this is unacceptable. The devs had a choice to make and a direction to head in and they did that not to insult or put you out, but to do what they believe is the best for their game and to create something many fans on many platforms with many playstyles may enjoy. There is no reason to feel animosity or get emotionally involved if this isn't the game for you. Believe me when I say SE does not have anything against you.
Comments
PS3 Specifications. They key part is 256mb of Video Ram and 256mb of System Ram. There are many other things that you can compare to gaming rigs, but this shows some of the specific needs of developing a MMORPG for both PC and Console. Any developer or programmer that works in gaming and with ram can tell you how difficult it would be to make a game that targets current gaming PC's with an average of 2-4gb of System Ram and 500mb-1gb+ of Video Ram:
(Counter-clockwise from top) Original logo, new logo, original model, controller, newer slim model.
Developer
SCEI
Manufacturer
Sony EMCS, Foxconn, Lanix, ASUSTeK[1]
Product family
PlayStation
Type
Video game console
Generation
Seventh generation era
Retail availability
November 11, 2006
(details)
Units sold
38.1 million (as of June 30, 2010)[2]
Media
Blu-ray Disc (PlayStation 3 game disc)
DVD
Compact Disc
PlayStation game disc
PlayStation 2 game disc (1st & 2nd generations only)
Super Audio CD (1st & 2nd generations only)
Digital distribution
Operating system
XrossMediaBar
System software version 3.41[3]
CPU
3.2 GHz Cell Broadband Engine with 1 PPE & 7 SPEs
Storage capacity
2.5" SATA hard drive
(20 GB, 40 GB, 60 GB, 80 GB, 120 GB, 160 GB, 250 GB, or 320 GB included) (upgradeable)
Memory
256 MB system and 256 MB video
Display
Video output formats[show]
Composite video
480i, 576i (PAL)
S-Video
480i, 576i (PAL)
RGB SCART
480i, 576i (PAL)
Component (YPbPr)
480i, 576i (PAL), 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
D-Terminal
480i (D1), 480p (D2), 720p (D4), 1080i (D3), 1080p (D5)
HDMI
480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Graphics
550 MHz NVIDIA/SCEI RSX 'Reality Synthesizer'
Sound
Audio output formats[show]
A/V-Multi
Analog stereo
TOSLINK
LPCM
2ch
44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88 kHz, 176.4 kHz
Dolby Digital 5.1
DTS 5.1
AAC
HDMI
*All models can decode Dolby TrueHD and as of firmware 2.30 DTS-HD Master Audio, to be output as LPCM. Output of the raw undecoded stream is limited to slim models.[4]LPCM
2ch, 5.1ch, 7.1ch
44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, 192 kHz
DTS-HD Master Audio Bitstream (slim models only)*
Dolby TrueHD Bitstream (slim models only)*
Dolby Digital 5.1
DTS 5.1
AAC
Controller input
Sixaxis, DualShock 3, Logitech Driving Force GT, Logitech Cordless Precision™ controller, standard USB controllers, GT Force, Rhythm game controllers, PlayStation Move, GunCon 3, PlayStation Portable, Keyboard and Mouse
Connectivity
(details)[show]
Flash memory input
MemoryStick/PRO/Duo*
SD/MMC*
CompactFlash/Microdrive*
Audio/video output
HDMI 1.3a out
S/PDIF out (TOSLINK)
AV Multi out
Composite video/stereo audio cable**
S-Video cable
SCART cable
Component video cable
D-Terminal cable
Other
IEEE 802.11b/g Wi-Fi***
Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)
4 × USB 2.0
(2 × in 40 GB and all later models)
Wired gigabit Ethernet
*60 GB and CECHExx 80 GB models
**Included in box
***All except 20 GB model
Online services
PlayStation Network
Backward
compatibility
PlayStation (all models)
PlayStation 2 (20 GB, 60 GB and some (CECHExx) 80 GB models)
Predecessor
PlayStation 2
Well said.
Maybe some haters can take the time to read and understand the why of thins before talking trash about a company thats bringing a great game for all pvers out there. On both PC and ps3.
Good post, thanks for the info. Maybe you could answer the seemingly obvious question... why not make a GUI for PC users? why sadle PC players with the limitations of a console? Is it really that hard to create more then one UI for the 2 different platforms? I get why they did it, but the simple fact is that it's a PC game with a console UI in 2010, doesn't really matter what the reason, it makes SE look like they are still making telegraphs and telling everyone cell phones are phooey.
I can agree with your point that using 3rd party applications to solve there mouse,alt-tabbing, and keymap problem instead of coding there own would be a very viable solution.
I have no problem in doing so, EXCEPT...
Until SE makes an official announment saying you will NOT be BANNED for using this type of 3rd Party application, You can not seriously consider this a viable option. Until such an announcement, this type of issue should be on there top priority list.
Probably due to monetary issues and constraints. They have been pushing for simultaneous launch and release so doing something that only benefits one version and is not universal is an added cost. A whole new UI for a game is quite time consuming and would be costly in time and money. I agree though this would have been the better route, but I can understand why it might be too much for them or those with money to tackle or scope into the project.
Combined with these being Japanese developers in a country where controller based gameplay dominates even on PC and it makes a bit of sense. Still it may have made them more money than the cost, but who knows. If someone doesn't like the UI of a game that caters to console there is a good chance they won't like the rest of the stuff that comes with it as well.
Yep, low memory is a game developers nightmare, haunting coders and artists alike. They also have to deal with it on PC's, but to a lesser extent, to widen their audience through lower hardware requirements.
I found it interesting the eastern audience weren't having problems with the UI like the west. Guess they went in knowing/accepting that a controller would be best. In the end FF14 is a console MMO that is on the PC, and oddly enough releasing on the PC first.
While it's not the only issue the UI/mouse is a major hurdle for the "NA" audience to get over, I can't help wondering how much better this game would do, and how much more money it could make for SE if they would just "modernize" and "westernize" a few of their systems. I know the JPs love the controller but I'm still very disappointed that SE dragged so many of the negative things from XI straight into XIV... was really hoping, actually simply expecting a much more "2010" MMO...
Excellent Post, OP.
I am an ex-programmer, so I totally understand and agree with you. That's probably why I have no hate for FFXIV like many others around here. That and also that I am 27 yrs old so i've become a casual MMO player at best due to time constraints.
Agree, very well said - and thank you for taking the time to put this all together, much appreciated.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Good read. Seems like you put some effort into writing this. Appreciate your point of view. However, just wanted to say a couple things in response. Hopefully I don't derail the thread.
Mainly, from what I've seen, people have problems with this game for a reason. Sometimes its a somewhat more shallow reason like the whole jumping/swimming thing (this bothered me too to be honest.) The thing that really bothers me is the arrogance (as I see it) displayed both by representatives of SE and players supporting the game, rather than issues within the game itself. Have you seen any of Fony's videos? Specifically the ones showing the response to the jump issue, and the repeated terrain (links at end of post.) There was also a thread started about FFXIV in MMORPG's forum, I remember reading it because the fellow was going on about how FFXIV was like a fine wine for gaming connoisseurs... whether he was right or not, it honestly made me want to hit him. That kind of attitude does not make me like you or the product you're trying to promote. If you design a certain way, you better have a good reason, and you better listen if people have issues with it, otherwise you just come off as a jerk.
All in all, I think FFXIV will probably stand up alright on its own, FFXI fans will likely support it, and maybe Square Enix will get their act together and listen to their fans, rather than just expecting them to pay because its Final Fantasy. I wonder if, as a company, it has been forgotten that Final Fantasy was once a last attempt at a successful game before the doors closed, and they simply see it as the cash cow that it has grown to be.
I probably won't be playing this title, as recently FF has become a different breed from the games of old, and I find myself disappointed more often than interested. Good luck to everyone who does though, hope you have fun. Once again, thanks for posting this ProfRed, it made me think. I might actually consider picking up a PS3 at some point.
Links:
Toilet Paper players: Players who are useless after 1 or 2 wipes.
They had the same policy on ffxi and aparently they are keeping it on 14.Is that pc and ps players play equally in terms of UI and add ons. Is why they never aproved any addon at all and is why they have to make the same UI for both,is hard and is diferent .
Is normal they get flamed by this , but is the why they wont make a diferent UI for PC.They would say somethin like " to not give PC players an advantage" or somethin between those lines.
Haha /thread
Good post OP.
I have been trying to explain the Re-using of graphics in certain threads to no-avail.
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
You wrote a great post about the differences and difficulties in game design and making an MMO for two platforms. But it can't be taken as an excuse for giving PC-gamers a UI that is not of this century.
I would have bought this game straight away if it had a PC-friendly UI, now I probably will not buy it at all, and I'm sure they are losing a lot of sales due to this. A poor UI makes the best of games mediocre.
Yeah I am not trying to make an excuse for them. For some people this is all they need to know a game is not right for them. When I started FFXI it was just as rough and at the time I almost quit playing because of it and the learning curve. After a couple weeks though I was hooked for 5 years. Everyone has things they can accept, and can't, and things that work or won't work for them and it's totally understandable that plenty of people will never get past this and it makes sense to me.
For me it isn't a big deal with an MMO that I may spend tons of time on. The big deal for me is fun over time. WoW was incredibly easy to get into and fun for a couple months but then I got bored and moved on. Something about FFXI entertained me for years and maybe XIV will or won't, but there is only one way to find out.
Excellent post, OP. Thanks for taking the time to sit down and explain this. I played FFXI on the PS2 for years with the big goofy keyboard/ps2 controller hybrid from Logitech.
It was amazing how fast we all got on the controller, throwing macros and commands at the game....
It makes perfect sense when you understand they are bringing this to the PS3 audience in the spring and we'll be able to play cross-platform.
Cheers!
Thats why all the other games that releace on PC, XBOX and PS3 all have the same issues!
Oh, waite....
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I want that keyboard! I actually have this setup with drivers for PC and for PS3 at launch:
Still working on my typing thumbs, but I am getting pretty good. Nothing like my wifes blackberry skills, but maybe one day.
PS3 Supports USB keybord and mouse.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yeah, but I want to play on the couch without a keyboard on my lap in various gaming positions. Gamasutra.
Excellent post and very similar to what I was trying to convey in that other thread that mysteriously disappeared.
Anyway I have no issue with mmos released for PCs but destined for the console. SE is first and foremost a console developer. I understand that. And if you look at the history of mmos released on consoles:
EQOA
PSO series
FFXI
FFXIV
SE has dominated the console mmo market. It also showed that console mmos have come a long way in the visual department. I just wish more western devs could tap into it as well. I'd love to see another western version of a console mmo. It's been 7 years since the last time. Either way good read and I'll be lined up to get FFXIV as soon as the PS3 version is released.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
That wasn't my point. According to you, the requirements are so vastly different that’s why they have such issues with porting it to the PC. Kind of funny, as the game is built on a PC platform, and then ported to the PS3.
Meanwhile Truth is, PS3 supports keyboard and mouse as well, as well as being a close hardware platform, won’t have to deal with the billions of hardware configurations.
So witch is it, the GUI and mouse are gimped because its going on the PS3 (that supports them) or The PC's performance is so bad, because the PS3 has lower hardware (but a closed single state hardware the usually represents a faster more powerful ability then a PC machine).
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I am looking forward to more console MMO's as well. It will be interesting to compare DCUO to FFXIV. DCUO has seperate PS3 and PC versions that play on seperate servers. I will be interested to see what that means for the lifetime of the game and what the game is like. I have a feeling both versions will play out very much like an instanced console game though rather than a large open world like XIV.
There was news of a console only NCSoft MMO I believe as well. I would love to see a game like Dragon Quest go for a console only MMO down the road too.
Not trying to argue here. This isn't about FFXIV being good or bad or anything in between. It is just to bring to light the difficulties involved with putting a MMORPG onto a Console and PC. The key difficulty being the RAM where you have 512mb total on a PS3 with only 256mb for Video and System Memory.
This is just a discussion not an argument. No need to troll or be negative here. There are plenty of other threads for that. I realize that this game isn't for you. I realize that nothing I say will sway your decision and I don't want to sway it in the first place.
haha! I know! It was big and clunky and brilliant! I wish Logitech would update it for the PS3. The little chat pad doesn't quite feel as comfortable. I'm still getting used to it myself.
Anyway. Good thread so far. It's so rare to find this sort of positive and informational thread on this forum these days. :P