The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
Nah, Pay as You Go is just today's band-aid for aging MMO's to get populations back up for their regular subscribers' benefit.
I can only speak for Americans, but we culturally prefer service contracts over pay as you go. Own vs. rent, etc.
DDO
LOTRO
EQ2 X
BOTBS
DCU
GW2
Its slowly happening
The p2p crowd are like the moral majority, they are not really the majority but they think if they yell loud enough and pressure hard enough people will think they are.
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
Nah, Pay as You Go is just today's band-aid for aging MMO's to get populations back up for their regular subscribers' benefit.
I can only speak for Americans, but we culturally prefer service contracts over pay as you go. Own vs. rent, etc.
DDO - was on deaths' door because noone would subscribe.
LOTRO - was underpopulated and people trickling away every day.
EQ2 X - SOE greed, nothing more.
POTBS - is on deaths' door, FLS trying to salvage it. Ain't gonna work.
DCU - Where have they said it's going to be "free to play"?
GW2- "Buy to play" is not "free to play", not even the same model. If anything were going to replace subs, this would be the only alternative I'd endorse.
Its slowly happening
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
Nah, Pay as You Go is just today's band-aid for aging MMO's to get populations back up for their regular subscribers' benefit.
I can only speak for Americans, but we culturally prefer service contracts over pay as you go. Own vs. rent, etc.
DDO - was on deaths' door because noone would subscribe.
(True)
LOTRO - was underpopulated and people trickling away every day.
(Was not dying, game was healthy)
EQ2 X - SOE greed, nothing more.
(Welcome to Business)
POTBS - is on deaths' door, FLS trying to salvage it. Ain't gonna work.
(Yeah was not doing so well)
DCU - Where have they said it's going to be "free to play"?
(Forum People, So no Idea)
GW2- "Buy to play" is not "free to play", not even the same model. If anything were going to replace subs, this would be the only alternative I'd endorse.
(B2P and F2P are the same to me as they both will end up with a cash shop)
Its slowly happening
lol...there is really no point arguing.
None of us can see into the future but IMO from the looks of things are going to the b2p/f2p root.
And in regards to DCU everyone here has been saying it will be B2P...So I have no idea what SOE is doing with the game.
Anyway in the end it makes no difference to me...P2P/B2P/F2P but as long as the game is good.
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
Nah, Pay as You Go is just today's band-aid for aging MMO's to get populations back up for their regular subscribers' benefit.
I can only speak for Americans, but we culturally prefer service contracts over pay as you go. Own vs. rent, etc.
DDO - was on deaths' door because noone would subscribe.
(True)
LOTRO - was underpopulated and people trickling away every day.
(Was not dying, game was healthy)
EQ2 X - SOE greed, nothing more.
(Welcome to Business)
POTBS - is on deaths' door, FLS trying to salvage it. Ain't gonna work.
(Yeah was not doing so well)
DCU - Where have they said it's going to be "free to play"?
(Forum People, So no Idea)
GW2- "Buy to play" is not "free to play", not even the same model. If anything were going to replace subs, this would be the only alternative I'd endorse.
(B2P and F2P are the same to me as they both will end up with a cash shop)
Its slowly happening
lol...there is really no point arguing.
None of us can see into the future but IMO from the looks of things are going to the b2p/f2p root.
And in regards to DCU everyone here has been saying it will be B2P...So I have no idea what SOE is doing with the game.
Anyway in the end it makes no difference to me...P2P/B2P/F2P but as long as the game is good.
They've said there will be a subscription for DCUO. This is the best way for MMOs to go. P2P for as long as people will pay, then switch to F2P when the population dwindles and they need a resurgence. This is the new F2P folks, and it has nothing to do with F2P being a better model, it all has to do with trying to keep the lights on and the servers open to bilk as much as possible before the game crashes and burns.
POTBS should never have been P2P ever. Their combat system was interesting, but it turned out to feel frightfully boring. I wouldn't say it was uninspired though, I think it could have had a place, somewhere.
So many people just dont seem to be able to comprehend the "new" F2P model that MMOs are adopting. There will STILL be a monthly sub option that grants access to all content. You know, like what your ALREADY paying? In other words, if your already a paying subscriber then NOTHING changes for you at all. You simply have another option of buying the content in "pieces" rather than paying the monthly sub.
No... sorry... but you are thinking of TURBINE.... NOT FLS.
Just because Turbine have done it that way does NOT mean FLS will do it that way too.
And sorry... but FLS have a history of doing it a bit differently to everyone else.
So, to see what FLS are actually going to do we have to wait and see... odds are that FLS still have to wait and see too.
And unless things have changed - SOE still does the billing on PotBS accounts - so SOE will have to have a hand in this?
This is not a Turbine F2P game. Anything could happen here.
And you know what? I am still going to wait and see. Because despite FLS's best 'planning' things can still go wrong.
FLS have a history of coming up with ideas that do not work in practice, or at least do not work as intended.
If you look back in this thread you will see people talking about structure slots? In the article you link it says:
"Free accounts will only have 2 character slots per nation, but if you like to play more classes or just like to play different characters, you can upgrade the number of characters slots on your account. The same thing goes for structure slots and dockyard slots, where again you’ll have two as standard. Our goal is to give anyone who creates an account a taste of everything in the game and let you choose how you want to expand on your experience."
It's been a while since I played - but even well after release there were problems with the economy tutorial. In fact - months after release I spent a couple of hours with an in game GM showing how the Eco Tutorial could be broken and explaining what needed to be done to fix it... the GM agreed and saw the issues. A couple of days later I got a message from the support team that they could not understand the issue to find and fix it....
Now, I seem to recall that to make the Eco Tutorial work you need to have two empty building slots when you try to run it.
So a 'F2P' player attempting to run the Eco Tutorial with each character will have issues if any previous toon has buildings. Not really a big deal IF an error message tells players what is wrong and how to fix it (delete structures on other toons) - but IIRC the game doesn't do that - players are left with no idea why the tutorial will not work. Sure they can fix this - but it's an example of implimenting changes withouth thinking about what could be affected and how.
Then the other issue is that throughout PotBS's history they have changed policy several times on whether players can have characters with different nations on the same server. There were good reasons for that. Griefing in port battles for one. Now with the threat of a ban most paying customers wouldn't do this... but with free accounts could it become an issue again?
And what about port governance in the new "Power and Prestige" expansion? Can a F2P player challange for that? Can F2P players vote for it? Hmmmm I can see potential issues there too.
You might say "I am sure the Devs know what they are doing - more than you" - but really FLS's history will show you that quite often FLS really don't.
If you don't believe me - shoot NortonGB a PM and ask him, or Linna, or Vetarnias or AgtSmith or one of a ton of other people who watched FLS make plain dumb decisions time after time.
The difference between Sony's F2P model and Turbine's F2P model is huge.
Sony: Almost everything you need must be purchased from the cash shop. Characters are seriously gimped without subscription or big cash store purchases.
Turbine: You are gimped unless you buy stuff from the cash store - BUT - playing the game earns you free points for the cash store - if you play a lot you can unlock everything you could need or want from the cash store without paying one dime. (though it will involve rerolling characters all over the place!)
Turbine = Real F2P, advantages to cash payers can be neutralized through play.
Sony = P2P with a huge free trial. Only cash players will get anywhere.
At least POTBS won't take away character slots or ANYTHING current subscribers or anyone who EVER subscribed had *cough*Turbine*cough* (the specific thing which made me NOT consider LOTRO along with non-retroactive TP for deeds) according to the FAQ:
"Captain’s Club members and anyone who has ever subscribed to PotBS will automatically have access to every account upgrade that free accounts do not have (i.e. character slots, structure slots, dockyard slots); we don’t want to take anything away from the players who have supported PotBS since we launched."
another often overlooked feature of so many (soon to be all...mark my words) MMO's becoming f2p/cash shop is the ability to actively play several MMO's at a time.
instead of being hemmed in to the one or two games you are will to subscribe to, you can now begin honing your play experience exactly as you see fit. you could do a dungeon in 6 different mmo's each night if you wanted, and buy small addons as you go...
while i genuinely miss the immersive old school style, i definately think the current expanding trend is as close to perfect and player control as can be imagined, without all games going totally free to play without cashshops or or fees of any kind...(i got spoiled by the final 3 years of shadowbane)
At least POTBS won't take away character slots or ANYTHING current subscribers or anyone who EVER subscribed had *cough*Turbine*cough* (the specific thing which made me NOT consider LOTRO along with non-retroactive TP for deeds) according to the FAQ:
"Captain’s Club members and anyone who has ever subscribed to PotBS will automatically have access to every account upgrade that free accounts do not have (i.e. character slots, structure slots, dockyard slots); we don’t want to take anything away from the players who have supported PotBS since we launched."
emm Is still had all 7 of my character slots on lotro
I actually really liked this game but found it not good enough for a monthly sub. I probably would of paid $29.99 for the client with no subscriptions and $9.99 for any worth expansions
I actually really liked this game but found it not good enough for a monthly sub. I probably would of paid $29.99 for the client with no subscriptions and $9.99 for any worth expansions
Totally agree. But now that it's FTP I'll definitly be giving it another try. The new political system actually sounds kinda interesting. I wouldn't mind governing a port!
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
It looks more like the birth of hybrid models than the death of anything.
Games that are good are still going to be able to command box sales + subscriptions and continue to dominate the market. Games that struggle to compete and survive will be forced to give the game away for free and try to revamp their game to support a cash shop or some other revenue model.
Lets be honest about the games that are making the switch to F2P. All were past their prime and most were basicly dead games unable to attract players. I think we are seeing the clear division of games. First class and second class games.
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
It looks more like the birth of hybrid models than the death of anything.
Games that are good are still going to be able to command box sales + subscriptions and continue to dominate the market. Games that struggle to compete and survive will be forced to give the game away for free and try to revamp their game to support a cash shop or some other revenue model.
Lets be honest about the games that are making the switch to F2P. All were past their prime and most were basicly dead games unable to attract players. I think we are seeing the clear division of games. First class and second class games.
With POTBS an indicator of good isn't exactly a comparison to WOW or other successful "good" MMO's. It's a very niche game to begin with, as it's focus is mainly on strategic ship combat. Which obviously isn't for everyone, it's ground game is a tad medicore of course, but it was an obvious tack-on at the late stages of development. As far as ship combat goes the game is decent, it's just not the most popular approach at creating an MMO.
I'm surprised there was a market big enough to keep it alive ths long.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
At least POTBS won't take away character slots or ANYTHING current subscribers or anyone who EVER subscribed had *cough*Turbine*cough* (the specific thing which made me NOT consider LOTRO along with non-retroactive TP for deeds) according to the FAQ:
"Captain’s Club members and anyone who has ever subscribed to PotBS will automatically have access to every account upgrade that free accounts do not have (i.e. character slots, structure slots, dockyard slots); we don’t want to take anything away from the players who have supported PotBS since we launched."
emm Is still had all 7 of my character slots on lotro
Because you're still paying a monthly-fee and you have Moria. VIP has 5 character slots, and Moria features 2 additional slots.
I have Premium access and had to lose access to 3 of my 6 characters. I don't even have Moria and I had 6 character slots before.
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
It looks more like the birth of hybrid models than the death of anything.
...
And the companies that see the Turbine hybrid model as the cure all are about to learn a harsh lesson I think.
The Turbine F2P Hybrid model works for DDO because that IP is perfect for it. And combined with the modular (instanced) design it really fits together well. Not to mention that Pen and Paper D&D conditioned players to accept that sort of thing.
But that design will not necessarliy work for any IP and it places restrictions on game design.
That's fine for now, but in about 12 months everyone will have seen it and be sick of it. We will see long threads (both here and on developer forums) asking for open worlds and quest lines that are not all just linear chains and maybe overlap... and the Turbine Hybrid F2P model does not really support that too well.
I really don't get this "F2P saves the day... + kittens too!" mentality of sinking ship (haha, I made a pun) dev teams / companies. I mean, this game wasn't any good in my eyes (nor my wallet) when it was P2P.
How is it all of the sudden going to start making money being f2p?
The end is nigh, the reign of the P2P is slowly crumbling away.
It looks more like the birth of hybrid models than the death of anything.
...
And the companies that see the Turbine hybrid model as the cure all are about to learn a harsh lesson I think.
The Turbine F2P Hybrid model works for DDO because that IP is perfect for it. And combined with the modular (instanced) design it really fits together well. Not to mention that Pen and Paper D&D conditioned players to accept that sort of thing.
But that design will not necessarliy work for any IP and it places restrictions on game design.
That's fine for now, but in about 12 months everyone will have seen it and be sick of it. We will see long threads (both here and on developer forums) asking for open worlds and quest lines that are not all just linear chains and maybe overlap... and the Turbine Hybrid F2P model does not really support that too well.
I very much agree with you and I think most of these f2p conversions are not going to be very sustainable before they have to start selling everything and the kitchen sink just to keep money coming in. After that I suspect we will start seeing just how nomadic people are in these free to play games, because there really isn't anything to keep them invested in those games. Sure they are easy to start, but they are just as easy to walk away from, especially as more and more games fight for the dollars of those with limited attention spans.
However I do think someone will figure out a decent blend of the two models. A full tranditional subscription and another option for pay as you go type playing. Maybe time blocks or limited access, I don't know, but games that do not compete well in the full subscription market are forced to make changes like this.
Comments
The p2p crowd are like the moral majority, they are not really the majority but they think if they yell loud enough and pressure hard enough people will think they are.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
You just made my point. All of those games are getting long in the tooth and they needed something to give them a jumpstart.
These are not new games. When we start seeing Western games released as Pay as You Go, then we can start talking about "the end is near"
lol...there is really no point arguing.
None of us can see into the future but IMO from the looks of things are going to the b2p/f2p root.
And in regards to DCU everyone here has been saying it will be B2P...So I have no idea what SOE is doing with the game.
Anyway in the end it makes no difference to me...P2P/B2P/F2P but as long as the game is good.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I lol'd
All the MMOs, hop on the F2P bandwagon hoping it will save your dwindling server populations! DO IT!
They've said there will be a subscription for DCUO. This is the best way for MMOs to go. P2P for as long as people will pay, then switch to F2P when the population dwindles and they need a resurgence. This is the new F2P folks, and it has nothing to do with F2P being a better model, it all has to do with trying to keep the lights on and the servers open to bilk as much as possible before the game crashes and burns.
POTBS should never have been P2P ever. Their combat system was interesting, but it turned out to feel frightfully boring. I wouldn't say it was uninspired though, I think it could have had a place, somewhere.
I have actually really enjoyed this game in the past its a lot of fun IMHO. I think I will be going back when its F2P.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The angel of death has been abroad throughout the land; you may almost hear the beating of his wings.
House of Commons, 23 Feb. 1855
http://www.burningsea.com/page/news/article&article_id=271038
Oh look, I was right. How unsurprising!
Well, I quite liked this game but had to quit because I couldn't afford to run three or four games at the same time. I'll certainly be coming back.
Now, if they just expanded the map to include the rest of the world, that would be interesting too.
Good find.
And you know what? I am still going to wait and see. Because despite FLS's best 'planning' things can still go wrong.
FLS have a history of coming up with ideas that do not work in practice, or at least do not work as intended.
If you look back in this thread you will see people talking about structure slots? In the article you link it says:
"Free accounts will only have 2 character slots per nation, but if you like to play more classes or just like to play different characters, you can upgrade the number of characters slots on your account. The same thing goes for structure slots and dockyard slots, where again you’ll have two as standard. Our goal is to give anyone who creates an account a taste of everything in the game and let you choose how you want to expand on your experience."
It's been a while since I played - but even well after release there were problems with the economy tutorial. In fact - months after release I spent a couple of hours with an in game GM showing how the Eco Tutorial could be broken and explaining what needed to be done to fix it... the GM agreed and saw the issues. A couple of days later I got a message from the support team that they could not understand the issue to find and fix it....
Now, I seem to recall that to make the Eco Tutorial work you need to have two empty building slots when you try to run it.
So a 'F2P' player attempting to run the Eco Tutorial with each character will have issues if any previous toon has buildings. Not really a big deal IF an error message tells players what is wrong and how to fix it (delete structures on other toons) - but IIRC the game doesn't do that - players are left with no idea why the tutorial will not work. Sure they can fix this - but it's an example of implimenting changes withouth thinking about what could be affected and how.
Then the other issue is that throughout PotBS's history they have changed policy several times on whether players can have characters with different nations on the same server. There were good reasons for that. Griefing in port battles for one. Now with the threat of a ban most paying customers wouldn't do this... but with free accounts could it become an issue again?
And what about port governance in the new "Power and Prestige" expansion? Can a F2P player challange for that? Can F2P players vote for it? Hmmmm I can see potential issues there too.
You might say "I am sure the Devs know what they are doing - more than you" - but really FLS's history will show you that quite often FLS really don't.
If you don't believe me - shoot NortonGB a PM and ask him, or Linna, or Vetarnias or AgtSmith or one of a ton of other people who watched FLS make plain dumb decisions time after time.
Wait and see I suppose.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
The difference between Sony's F2P model and Turbine's F2P model is huge.
Sony: Almost everything you need must be purchased from the cash shop. Characters are seriously gimped without subscription or big cash store purchases.
Turbine: You are gimped unless you buy stuff from the cash store - BUT - playing the game earns you free points for the cash store - if you play a lot you can unlock everything you could need or want from the cash store without paying one dime. (though it will involve rerolling characters all over the place!)
Turbine = Real F2P, advantages to cash payers can be neutralized through play.
Sony = P2P with a huge free trial. Only cash players will get anywhere.
another often overlooked feature of so many (soon to be all...mark my words) MMO's becoming f2p/cash shop is the ability to actively play several MMO's at a time.
instead of being hemmed in to the one or two games you are will to subscribe to, you can now begin honing your play experience exactly as you see fit. you could do a dungeon in 6 different mmo's each night if you wanted, and buy small addons as you go...
while i genuinely miss the immersive old school style, i definately think the current expanding trend is as close to perfect and player control as can be imagined, without all games going totally free to play without cashshops or or fees of any kind...(i got spoiled by the final 3 years of shadowbane)
emm Is still had all 7 of my character slots on lotro
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I actually really liked this game but found it not good enough for a monthly sub. I probably would of paid $29.99 for the client with no subscriptions and $9.99 for any worth expansions
Totally agree. But now that it's FTP I'll definitly be giving it another try. The new political system actually sounds kinda interesting. I wouldn't mind governing a port!
It looks more like the birth of hybrid models than the death of anything.
Games that are good are still going to be able to command box sales + subscriptions and continue to dominate the market. Games that struggle to compete and survive will be forced to give the game away for free and try to revamp their game to support a cash shop or some other revenue model.
Lets be honest about the games that are making the switch to F2P. All were past their prime and most were basicly dead games unable to attract players. I think we are seeing the clear division of games. First class and second class games.
With POTBS an indicator of good isn't exactly a comparison to WOW or other successful "good" MMO's. It's a very niche game to begin with, as it's focus is mainly on strategic ship combat. Which obviously isn't for everyone, it's ground game is a tad medicore of course, but it was an obvious tack-on at the late stages of development. As far as ship combat goes the game is decent, it's just not the most popular approach at creating an MMO.
I'm surprised there was a market big enough to keep it alive ths long.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Because you're still paying a monthly-fee and you have Moria. VIP has 5 character slots, and Moria features 2 additional slots.
I have Premium access and had to lose access to 3 of my 6 characters. I don't even have Moria and I had 6 character slots before.
And the companies that see the Turbine hybrid model as the cure all are about to learn a harsh lesson I think.
The Turbine F2P Hybrid model works for DDO because that IP is perfect for it. And combined with the modular (instanced) design it really fits together well. Not to mention that Pen and Paper D&D conditioned players to accept that sort of thing.
But that design will not necessarliy work for any IP and it places restrictions on game design.
That's fine for now, but in about 12 months everyone will have seen it and be sick of it. We will see long threads (both here and on developer forums) asking for open worlds and quest lines that are not all just linear chains and maybe overlap... and the Turbine Hybrid F2P model does not really support that too well.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I love this game, you all will really really enjoy it
I really don't get this "F2P saves the day... + kittens too!" mentality of sinking ship (haha, I made a pun) dev teams / companies. I mean, this game wasn't any good in my eyes (nor my wallet) when it was P2P.
How is it all of the sudden going to start making money being f2p?
I very much agree with you and I think most of these f2p conversions are not going to be very sustainable before they have to start selling everything and the kitchen sink just to keep money coming in. After that I suspect we will start seeing just how nomadic people are in these free to play games, because there really isn't anything to keep them invested in those games. Sure they are easy to start, but they are just as easy to walk away from, especially as more and more games fight for the dollars of those with limited attention spans.
However I do think someone will figure out a decent blend of the two models. A full tranditional subscription and another option for pay as you go type playing. Maybe time blocks or limited access, I don't know, but games that do not compete well in the full subscription market are forced to make changes like this.
Somebody said"Life is Short; Play Games"There are many fun games so far.Enjoy yourselves in
your game life!Click to move,I can give you alot more detail if your interested ???