Originally posted by dreamscaper Why is it so hard for people to understand that 50% of this game's playerbase isn't going to be using a mouse and keyboard to play?
Is it really necessary to have same UI for 2 different client platforms?
I understand that it is probably not trivial technically but I cannot imagine they actually made an effort and this to be the best what they could come up with.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that 50% of this game's playerbase isn't going to be using a mouse and keyboard to play?
Is it really necessary to have same UI for 2 different client platforms?
I understand that it is probably not trivial technically but I cannot imagine they actually made an effort and this to be the best what they could come up with.
My guess is that, by using any of the four "obvious" techniques explained in the article I linked in the OP, Square would've done better. Not that this article is sooo great, or the techniques revolutionary. The truth is that Square doesn't give a **** about PC players and has no clue about that market (as someone said, the PC isn't particularly an entertainment device in Japan); the truth is also that they could've done much better with the controller gameplay.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that 50% of this game's playerbase isn't going to be using a mouse and keyboard to play?
Is it really necessary to have same UI for 2 different client platforms?
I understand that it is probably not trivial technically but I cannot imagine they actually made an effort and this to be the best what they could come up with.
My guess is that, by using any of the four "obvious" techniques explained in the article I linked in the OP, Square would've done better. Not that this article is sooo great, or the techniques revolutionary. The truth is that Square doesn't give a **** about PC players and has no clue about that market (as someone said, the PC isn't particularly an entertainment device in Japan); the truth is also that they could've done much better with the controller gameplay.
Big words for a guy who never created a game in his life or, if he did, certainly nothing this ambitious. Because, if you did, I think you'd be fairly amazed with just how much they accomplished while keeping it console-friendly. The auto-translation function alone is something you won't find very often at all on other MMORPGs.
I read that article and I wasn't all that impressed, really. In fact, if you paid a good deal of attention to that article, you'd see it's mostly pointing out that any one of those techniques have massive holes in them, if anything it seems to be making excuses about how hard usability is to do and seems to heavily recommended outsourcing to usability experts. It's about as droll and disconnected from reality as any purely academic paper, written by a guy who works for Full Sail University, a rathe tacky for-profit education venture. He probably wrote that article for gamasutra to supplement how poorly he's being paid.
The article doesn't even have anything to do with Final Fantasy XIV, as you'd be deluding yourself if you think a company as big as Square-Enix has never heard of usuability, they've likely mechanisms in place severalfold times more complex than anything detailed in that article. In fact, look here, this is the kind of people they hire: usability experts. Judging by the list of qualifications they want, ones lightyears ahead of the guy who wrote that article.
It's like you just found a random article on usability in games, didn't have any idea what it meant, but regurtitated it here saying, "I think Final Fantasy XIV's GUI is bad, here's an article on how to make good GUIs, isn't that interesting! Pay attention, Square-Enix!" Sorry, it's just not that simple, and under closer examination you're just trolling.
Listen, it's like this: as pertains to their intended audience (primarily former Final Fantasy XI players and Final Fantasy fans who are used to menu-driven interfaces) the GUI probably does its job just great. Well, aaside from the lag and moving items around the player economy, but they're working that. People who can't stand it, well, they're simply not in the intended audience. Sorry guys, but chin up: it's not like you don't have a ton of World of Warcraft clones beating down your door already.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that 50% of this game's playerbase isn't going to be using a mouse and keyboard to play?
Is it really necessary to have same UI for 2 different client platforms?
I understand that it is probably not trivial technically but I cannot imagine they actually made an effort and this to be the best what they could come up with.
My guess is that, by using any of the four "obvious" techniques explained in the article I linked in the OP, Square would've done better. Not that this article is sooo great, or the techniques revolutionary. The truth is that Square doesn't give a **** about PC players and has no clue about that market (as someone said, the PC isn't particularly an entertainment device in Japan); the truth is also that they could've done much better with the controller gameplay.
Big words for a guy who never created a game in his life or, if he did, certainly nothing this ambitious. Because, if you did, I think you'd be fairly amazed with just how much they accomplished while keeping it console-friendly. The auto-translation function alone is something you won't find very often at all on other MMORPGs.
I read that article and I wasn't all that impressed, really. In fact, if you paid a good deal of attention to that article, you'd see it's mostly pointing out that any one of those techniques have massive holes in them, if anything it seems to be making excuses about how hard usability is to do and seems to heavily recommended outsourcing to usability experts. It's about as droll and disconnected from reality as any purely academic paper, written by a guy who works for Full Sail University, a rathe tacky for-profit education venture. He probably wrote that article for gamasutra to supplement how poorly he's being paid.
The article doesn't even have anything to do with Final Fantasy XIV, as you'd be deluding yourself if you think a company as big as Square-Enix has never heard of usuability, they've likely mechanisms in place severalfold times more complex than anything detailed in that article. In fact, look here, this is the kind of people they hire: usability experts. Judging by the list of qualifications they want, ones lightyears ahead of the guy who wrote that article.
It's like you just found a random article on usability in games, didn't have any idea what it meant, but regurtitated it here saying, "I think Final Fantasy XIV's GUI is bad, here's an article on how to make good GUIs, isn't that interesting! Pay attention, Square-Enix!" Sorry, it's just not that simple, and under closer examination you're just trolling.
Listen, it's like this: as pertains to their intended audience (primarily former Final Fantasy XI players and Final Fantasy fans who are used to menu-driven interfaces) the GUI probably does its job just great. Well, aaside from the lag and moving items around the player economy, but they're working that. People who can't stand it, well, they're simply not in the intended audience. Sorry guys, but chin up: it's not like you don't have a ton of World of Warcraft clones beating down your door already.
OK. Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree, mostly.
Just a few remarks, though:
I don't like your tone. This is a forum. We're voicing opinions. Whatever yours is, it doesn't entitle you to call others "trolls". Especially when I link an article to discuss. This is no trolling. However you, not really answering others' arguments (rather wording yours extensively and repetitively), are closer to the vulgar concept of "trolling", Sir. But I won't call you that. It's pointless. Does't help my point. Doesn't help you, either.
The fact that I'm no game maker doesn't mean that I would be bad at it, nor does it mean my opinion on the end-result of a development is void and irrelevant. In fact, I'm pretty sure games are made to be appreciated by consumers, not developers.
If you read correctly, you'd have noticed the article was written by 3 people: Eric Preisz and two PhDs from Full Sail. Now, it may be complete bull**** to you, yet it received quite positive comments. Then again, to each his opinion.
Besides, the article focuses on Indie/low cost development. My point was to illustrate that even at such a basic level of understanding (I'm aware of that, thank you), SE has failed to abide by certain principles. You praise their result, few do; I criticize it, as many others do. Whatever. The matter of the fact is that, by the book (UI design 101), FF XIV's UI is unconventional at best, crappy at worst. Then again, some people like it. That's a fact too. I can accept that.
I can also voice that I don't and try to explain why. Often, others have better words than I do, so I quote them. Which is how this thread appeared. Now back on topic, I'd really like you to reply to my take on immersion, focus and flow in FF XIV in relation to the UI. Because you put those issues on the table, and I still fail to see your point. Really explain me how FF XIV is better at that, only considering the UI, than other reference MMORPG. I say the UI is detrimental to those aspects of gaming in FF XIV, while you say it's not. Can you elaborate?
Qualifications required by SE in the add you linked aren't that high, in fact they're pretty standard in software development. Now, I have a few friends who work in the game industry in Japan (Capcom, Konami notably), half-japanese for most of them, and I can tell you that it's not that easy to voice opinions in a team in Japan. Not at all. Especially if you're "gaijin". So I don't have much faith in how much SE will listen to those NA-recruited UI guys. If it's anything like the publisher I mentioned, they'll just be seen as marginal if they don't "fit" in the current vision pushed by directors (team members don't try to criticize the boss's opinion, rather try to understand it and satisfy his needs). Be prepared to wait a few years more to benefit from their input, if that should ever happen. Meanwhile, they'll just do what they're told or leave. But that would be for another topic. Working for a Japanese company is never that simple, but I guess you know that...
" People who can't stand it, well, they're simply not in the intended audience. Sorry guys, but chin up: it's not like you don't have a ton of World of Warcraft clones beating down your door already." => I agree with that. This is a console MMORPG targeted at fans of FF XI and japanese gamers primarily.
By Brandon Sheffield [...] "One scenario for me was particularly telling, in terms of the differences inherent in the current Japanese market. I was waiting in line to play Tecmo Koei's soon-to-be-released third person shooter Quantum Theory, and was watching the players before me take their turns. It was eye-opening to be reminded of just how little Western-style games have penetrated the Japanese market. Players were having an awfully difficult time playing this incredibly easy demo - not because they're poor players, but because they simply don't understand how to control or enjoy a third or first-person shooter. I watched about 10 people play, and of those, six couldn't consistently figure out how to use the right stick - they would move with the left stick until the target reticule was near the enemy, then blast away - rarely moving the camera's perspective unless in a moment of desperation. They weren't using cover, let alone the special attacks the game offers. They were running right into groups of enemies and getting shot from behind without understanding the visual cues of the shot indicator. And (likely because Tecmo Koei is familiar with this scenario due to user tests) these players didn't die - the game demo was nerfed to where if they kept on pressing through until the end, they would get there somehow.It's not the game's fault, per se - all these things were communicated via text, sometimes even via gating, showing players how to complete each element of the gameplay. But there's an inherent disconnect - this isn't yet the kind of game that Japanese audiences know how to enjoy. This demo that I, a not-too-accomplished TPS player breezed through in a scant couple minutes, was taking some players upward of 10-15 minutes due to their lack of understanding of the genre." [...]
I find this interesting. Cultural differences in console gameplay may explain, among other things, why most western players are so polarized by FF XI/XIV's controls and interface.
By Brandon Sheffield — [...] "One scenario for me was particularly telling, in terms of the differences inherent in the current Japanese market. I was waiting in line to play Tecmo Koei's soon-to-be-released third person shooter Quantum Theory, and was watching the players before me take their turns. It was eye-opening to be reminded of just how little Western-style games have penetrated the Japanese market.
Players were having an awfully difficult time playing this incredibly easy demo - not because they're poor players, but because they simply don't understand how to control or enjoy a third or first-person shooter. I watched about 10 people play, and of those, six couldn't consistently figure out how to use the right stick - they would move with the left stick until the target reticule was near the enemy, then blast away - rarely moving the camera's perspective unless in a moment of desperation.
They weren't using cover, let alone the special attacks the game offers. They were running right into groups of enemies and getting shot from behind without understanding the visual cues of the shot indicator. And (likely because Tecmo Koei is familiar with this scenario due to user tests) these players didn't die - the game demo was nerfed to where if they kept on pressing through until the end, they would get there somehow.
It's not the game's fault, per se - all these things were communicated via text, sometimes even via gating, showing players how to complete each element of the gameplay. But there's an inherent disconnect - this isn't yet the kind of game that Japanese audiences know how to enjoy.
This demo that I, a not-too-accomplished TPS player breezed through in a scant couple minutes, was taking some players upward of 10-15 minutes due to their lack of understanding of the genre." [...]
I find this interesting. Cultural differences in console gameplay may explain, among other things, why most western players are so polarized by FF XI/XIV's controls and interface.
Okay, now this is more like it, but do note: it's not saying why Eastern games are having a hard time penetrating the Western market, but rather the other way around. It's an important difference because it's not like we're lacking in Japanese-style games over here in the West, we've got our Super Mario Galaxies and Final Fantasy games. If anything, this article supports the idea that it would be a bad idea for them to deviate from their existing fanbase.
Also note that the article stresses the game is not at fault, per se, that players can be taught and come to enjoy these games, just that there's an "inherent disconnect" that they need to get over.
It's interesting how they say that the lack of difficulty was the reason why they didn't get clued. It sort of supports the idea that FFXIV should be relatively hardcore in order to encourage people to realize the way they're playing doesn't work and snap them out of the same old thought paterns.
By Brandon Sheffield — [...] "One scenario for me was particularly telling, in terms of the differences inherent in the current Japanese market. I was waiting in line to play Tecmo Koei's soon-to-be-released third person shooter Quantum Theory, and was watching the players before me take their turns. It was eye-opening to be reminded of just how little Western-style games have penetrated the Japanese market.
Players were having an awfully difficult time playing this incredibly easy demo - not because they're poor players, but because they simply don't understand how to control or enjoy a third or first-person shooter. I watched about 10 people play, and of those, six couldn't consistently figure out how to use the right stick - they would move with the left stick until the target reticule was near the enemy, then blast away - rarely moving the camera's perspective unless in a moment of desperation.
They weren't using cover, let alone the special attacks the game offers. They were running right into groups of enemies and getting shot from behind without understanding the visual cues of the shot indicator. And (likely because Tecmo Koei is familiar with this scenario due to user tests) these players didn't die - the game demo was nerfed to where if they kept on pressing through until the end, they would get there somehow.
It's not the game's fault, per se - all these things were communicated via text, sometimes even via gating, showing players how to complete each element of the gameplay. But there's an inherent disconnect - this isn't yet the kind of game that Japanese audiences know how to enjoy.
This demo that I, a not-too-accomplished TPS player breezed through in a scant couple minutes, was taking some players upward of 10-15 minutes due to their lack of understanding of the genre." [...]
I find this interesting. Cultural differences in console gameplay may explain, among other things, why most western players are so polarized by FF XI/XIV's controls and interface.
This to me goes to show yet another challenge facing the game designers when producing a game (not just UI) for the international market. Theres not just a disconnect between the JP and NA gamers but also between the PC and Console gamers.
As to the UI how many different versions would they require to satisfy everyone? One for the Japanese playerbase, One for the NA market? How about for people with a physical disabilities or would they adapt to whats offered since they do that everyday?
They decided to go with this particular layout for a reason we as players will just have to decide if we can adjust to it on our choosen format.
You can see whats happened here , since wow came out its created dumb people and all they want now is easy mode on everything , i started playing FFXI when it first came out in NA and at first it took a little time to get used to the GUI but after a while it was second nature , when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it... just be abit patient!
You can see whats happened here , since wow came out its created dumb people and all they want now is easy mode on everything , i started playing FFXI when it first came out in NA and at first it took a little time to get used to the GUI but after a while it was second nature , when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it... just be abit patient!
Wait, are you saying that it takes time to get used to the FFXIV UI, but you didn't give WoW's UI a chance and call it horrid?
You can see whats happened here , since wow came out its created dumb people and all they want now is easy mode on everything , i started playing FFXI when it first came out in NA and at first it took a little time to get used to the GUI but after a while it was second nature , when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it... just be abit patient!
Wait, are you saying that it takes time to get used to the FFXIV UI, but you didn't give WoW's UI a chance and call it horrid?
I'm confused at the probable irony.
Erm i didnt say i didnt give it a chance... are you even reading what i wrote... here look >> when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it...
Comments
Is it really necessary to have same UI for 2 different client platforms?
I understand that it is probably not trivial technically but I cannot imagine they actually made an effort and this to be the best what they could come up with.
My guess is that, by using any of the four "obvious" techniques explained in the article I linked in the OP, Square would've done better. Not that this article is sooo great, or the techniques revolutionary. The truth is that Square doesn't give a **** about PC players and has no clue about that market (as someone said, the PC isn't particularly an entertainment device in Japan); the truth is also that they could've done much better with the controller gameplay.
Big words for a guy who never created a game in his life or, if he did, certainly nothing this ambitious. Because, if you did, I think you'd be fairly amazed with just how much they accomplished while keeping it console-friendly. The auto-translation function alone is something you won't find very often at all on other MMORPGs.
I read that article and I wasn't all that impressed, really. In fact, if you paid a good deal of attention to that article, you'd see it's mostly pointing out that any one of those techniques have massive holes in them, if anything it seems to be making excuses about how hard usability is to do and seems to heavily recommended outsourcing to usability experts. It's about as droll and disconnected from reality as any purely academic paper, written by a guy who works for Full Sail University, a rathe tacky for-profit education venture. He probably wrote that article for gamasutra to supplement how poorly he's being paid.
The article doesn't even have anything to do with Final Fantasy XIV, as you'd be deluding yourself if you think a company as big as Square-Enix has never heard of usuability, they've likely mechanisms in place severalfold times more complex than anything detailed in that article. In fact, look here, this is the kind of people they hire: usability experts. Judging by the list of qualifications they want, ones lightyears ahead of the guy who wrote that article.
It's like you just found a random article on usability in games, didn't have any idea what it meant, but regurtitated it here saying, "I think Final Fantasy XIV's GUI is bad, here's an article on how to make good GUIs, isn't that interesting! Pay attention, Square-Enix!" Sorry, it's just not that simple, and under closer examination you're just trolling.
Listen, it's like this: as pertains to their intended audience (primarily former Final Fantasy XI players and Final Fantasy fans who are used to menu-driven interfaces) the GUI probably does its job just great. Well, aaside from the lag and moving items around the player economy, but they're working that. People who can't stand it, well, they're simply not in the intended audience. Sorry guys, but chin up: it's not like you don't have a ton of World of Warcraft clones beating down your door already.
OK. Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree, mostly.
Just a few remarks, though:
I don't like your tone. This is a forum. We're voicing opinions. Whatever yours is, it doesn't entitle you to call others "trolls". Especially when I link an article to discuss. This is no trolling. However you, not really answering others' arguments (rather wording yours extensively and repetitively), are closer to the vulgar concept of "trolling", Sir. But I won't call you that. It's pointless. Does't help my point. Doesn't help you, either.
The fact that I'm no game maker doesn't mean that I would be bad at it, nor does it mean my opinion on the end-result of a development is void and irrelevant. In fact, I'm pretty sure games are made to be appreciated by consumers, not developers.
If you read correctly, you'd have noticed the article was written by 3 people: Eric Preisz and two PhDs from Full Sail. Now, it may be complete bull**** to you, yet it received quite positive comments. Then again, to each his opinion.
Besides, the article focuses on Indie/low cost development. My point was to illustrate that even at such a basic level of understanding (I'm aware of that, thank you), SE has failed to abide by certain principles. You praise their result, few do; I criticize it, as many others do. Whatever. The matter of the fact is that, by the book (UI design 101), FF XIV's UI is unconventional at best, crappy at worst. Then again, some people like it. That's a fact too. I can accept that.
I can also voice that I don't and try to explain why. Often, others have better words than I do, so I quote them. Which is how this thread appeared. Now back on topic, I'd really like you to reply to my take on immersion, focus and flow in FF XIV in relation to the UI. Because you put those issues on the table, and I still fail to see your point. Really explain me how FF XIV is better at that, only considering the UI, than other reference MMORPG. I say the UI is detrimental to those aspects of gaming in FF XIV, while you say it's not. Can you elaborate?
Qualifications required by SE in the add you linked aren't that high, in fact they're pretty standard in software development. Now, I have a few friends who work in the game industry in Japan (Capcom, Konami notably), half-japanese for most of them, and I can tell you that it's not that easy to voice opinions in a team in Japan. Not at all. Especially if you're "gaijin". So I don't have much faith in how much SE will listen to those NA-recruited UI guys. If it's anything like the publisher I mentioned, they'll just be seen as marginal if they don't "fit" in the current vision pushed by directors (team members don't try to criticize the boss's opinion, rather try to understand it and satisfy his needs). Be prepared to wait a few years more to benefit from their input, if that should ever happen. Meanwhile, they'll just do what they're told or leave. But that would be for another topic. Working for a Japanese company is never that simple, but I guess you know that...
" People who can't stand it, well, they're simply not in the intended audience. Sorry guys, but chin up: it's not like you don't have a ton of World of Warcraft clones beating down your door already." => I agree with that. This is a console MMORPG targeted at fans of FF XI and japanese gamers primarily.
From Gamasutra: "Analysis: Motion Rules At Tokyo Game Show 2010" (September 16, 2010)
I find this interesting. Cultural differences in console gameplay may explain, among other things, why most western players are so polarized by FF XI/XIV's controls and interface.
Okay, now this is more like it, but do note: it's not saying why Eastern games are having a hard time penetrating the Western market, but rather the other way around. It's an important difference because it's not like we're lacking in Japanese-style games over here in the West, we've got our Super Mario Galaxies and Final Fantasy games. If anything, this article supports the idea that it would be a bad idea for them to deviate from their existing fanbase.
Also note that the article stresses the game is not at fault, per se, that players can be taught and come to enjoy these games, just that there's an "inherent disconnect" that they need to get over.
It's interesting how they say that the lack of difficulty was the reason why they didn't get clued. It sort of supports the idea that FFXIV should be relatively hardcore in order to encourage people to realize the way they're playing doesn't work and snap them out of the same old thought paterns.
This to me goes to show yet another challenge facing the game designers when producing a game (not just UI) for the international market. Theres not just a disconnect between the JP and NA gamers but also between the PC and Console gamers.
As to the UI how many different versions would they require to satisfy everyone? One for the Japanese playerbase, One for the NA market? How about for people with a physical disabilities or would they adapt to whats offered since they do that everyday?
They decided to go with this particular layout for a reason we as players will just have to decide if we can adjust to it on our choosen format.
You can see whats happened here , since wow came out its created dumb people and all they want now is easy mode on everything , i started playing FFXI when it first came out in NA and at first it took a little time to get used to the GUI but after a while it was second nature , when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it... just be abit patient!
Wait, are you saying that it takes time to get used to the FFXIV UI, but you didn't give WoW's UI a chance and call it horrid?
I'm confused at the probable irony.
Erm i didnt say i didnt give it a chance... are you even reading what i wrote... here look >> when WOW came out i gave it a try... my gawd i couldnt get on with the GUI to me it was horrid .. it just takes a little getting used to , you need to give it TIME and learn how to use it...
and i played until Lv68 ..