1. The bigger companies know they wont make big money with them
2. To many people now a days are scared to lose pixels.
3. Indies have been making them and people are scared to spend money on indie's as most of them are rocky as first..
4. To many People are scared to PVP. In a Real game...
5. Some idiots like to ruin it for others...(Mostly new players) They feed on the weak and find it funny so it ruins it for others..
I played asheron call for yrs and people can be jerks, they liek to kill only low level/ or sklled players, when they its someone there level they run.. Mostly kids do this...
We are starting to see more FFA pvp games made by indies which i,m glad they may not rake in the subs but they have smaller to med size community which is a good thing because it would be raping all day anyways so many of us like it like that in these games.
1. UO
2. Asheron call
3. Mortal online
4. Darkfall
5.Soon to be Xyson
Most of these are the only real FFA pvp games out there.... UO and AC was the only 2 games that had higher pop, and the reason is because ,US players back then where not jerks as much as kids are today by ganking low levels or skilled players,
Blame todays gamers for this, you will see less because of the way kids act, and this is a fact...
I enjoy PVE, but I enjoy real PVP, and no game out there gives me what I want in PVP but the games I named...none.
Sadly MO is not doing well but hopefully one day it does better, Darkfall people say it does bad. Theya re wrong I see fights where there is over 100 people there soo, I like to know where they are playing at...The game does not have 1 million subs and i,m glad...If that was the case none of us could PVe EVER...
AC and UO are just old...
Xyson if they do it right could be a great game ..I guess we will see.
Far as a COD MMO I bet blizzard is making one right now..... I bet any thing they are...
The problem with PVP in MMO's is it become about your lvl/gear/class and the numbers you have with you than any skill.
EQ/WOW-style mechanics are not the only way to make an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As people have accurately commented already, there's a variety of factors that build on each other, that cause FFA PvP to not be as successful as it perhaps could be.
I'd categorise it:
1. MMORPG's vs FPS - a lot of the playerbase are not playing these games for direct competition. The market for that finds their satisfaction in FPS games, due to the problems with hybrid design of PvP in MMOs reducing the quality in both PvP and PvE where most MMORPG players are not looking for this game style. So it tries to achieve both but ends up compromising both. The current solution that works best is to separate PvP and PvE as much as possible. EG GW2 already learnt this (again demonstrating prescience that other developers seem to lack).
2. Open World PvP vs RvR PvP vs Arena/Structured PvP - FPS games are all about being able to blow the $%&"! out of the other player. That is the primary interaction and satisfaction and does not need to be earnt, as it's level playing field with everyone else on equal settings and expectations. In MMORPS, the interaction of the player with the world is about growing and caring for an avatar in the PvE setting. So seperating PvP makes sense to avoid spoiling this satisfaction and losing subs as a result and then that means PvP will go the way of FPS with Arena/Structured, but that is not the sort of PvP that MMOs could really make, so this hybrid solution is at least workable but limited, why not play a FPS for your PvP fix, in that case? The World or RvR type of free-for-all matches PvP in a PvE setting a bit better but in a separate space mixing PvE and PvP players (hopefully) and allows another type of PvP experience. BUT for a TRUE OPEN-WORLD PvP game, to be fully integrated the biggest design implementation needs to be a way for players to have to earn the right to PvP and suffer consequences that balance or mitigate players abusing this power. Until that is designed into the PvE world, it is only a niche/indie experiement.
I hate it when people say just play a FPS. If I want to play a shooter I will. That doesn't mean I don't have a craving to play something like oh that's say Shadowbane. When it comes to PVP I believe they had it at least close to right. I would say the main problem I saw with that game was the lowbie camping. Fun and entertaining for high levels to show off their power, yet at the same time it would often chase away the new player especially with full loot drop and equipment damage. What made that game fun was the GvG. Politics, mine fights and town battles. The drama alone at times would make the game entertaining especially when guilds that used to be allies would turn on each other. "Happened to the guild I was in". :P
I would have to agree that pre determined factions can ruin pvp in a game because most players opt to roll a character on the side that wins the most. Look at Guild Wars: Factions. Anybody that's ever spent enough time doing the alliance battles saw that exact same thing happen to the point where you would spend most of your time waiting to fight because the other side had a very low population.
I've been looking for a decent pvp game in the f2p market and so far it all seems the same. Pre determined factions, over powered item mall users, constant struggles with skill/class balancing, lowbie ganking, people calling other classes over powered every time they lose a fight, and so on.
Can there be a successful pvp slanted game? I think so, but with the current formula a lot of developers seem to be using right now, I don't think there will be.
100% FFAPVP doesn't work in a mmo because a playerbase cannot govern itself in such a ruleset. The douchbags will ruin the entire game.
Well nobody's asking for 100% FFA PVP. The OP specifically stated FFA PVP games suck (which I'd agree with. Even the "mostly FFA" games tend to be weak.)
The OP clearly wants a pure PVP experience like Chess, Starcraft, or Team Fortress 2: skill wins, zerging doesn't, progression doesn't.
Planetside is the only game I know of to maintain a pure PVP experience while being an MMO (although admittedly that was only the case after continent population limits were added.) Apart from that you can get nearly pure PVP from instanced games like WOW BGs, but typically it's diluted by progression having a significant influence -- and the PVP itself isn't Massive (apart from Alterac Valley...which I suppose is part of why I always liked AV.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
...... Fighting A.I is incredibly tedious and unfun, no one enjoys it and complains about the grind, they just want to get to the end level to do the balanced PVP. Why not just cut out the grind and have it all PVP in the world fighting for major points to take over like PS?
- In most of the games I play, I enjoy PvE or 'Fighting A.I' as you call it. I often find it very fun; Half-Life, Crysis, Fallout, Borderlands, etc., as well as MMOs like CoH or DDO.
- I am never in a hurry to get to the end level.
- I usually don't find playing the game and levelling up a grind. If I do, I quit that game.
- I have no desire to PvP in any way, shape or form in any video game ever.
We all like different things, but I think from the numbers it's fair to say that when it comes to MMOs, not that many people like full PvP all the time.
Games like BF, COD and CS are the most played out there and they're fully PVP. Planetside proved that a seamless MASSIVE online fully PVP FPS can world, just as long as the developer don't ruin it with content that they didn't test and then leave it for dead. Fighting A.I is incredibly tedious and unfun, no one enjoys it and complains about the grind, they just want to get to the end level to do the balanced PVP. Why not just cut out the grind and have it all PVP in the world fighting for major points to take over like PS?
On that note if you don't want it to go that far then why not let us capture contested territory (taking WoW for an example) instead of all fighting in instanced battlegrounds? Then let us level up via PVP and capturing this territory and make it a public quest type of thing so everyone can join. So you can have the choice of doing PVE or PVP. WAR had a good idea going but the game was horribly crap cause the engine sucked arse and the world was so bland with no Warhammer lore in sight.
I'm just sick of having to grind on stupid A.I mobs and quests which get you to kill them, it gets old. Fighting other players never does get old because it is skill vs skill and the winner has bragging rights and moves up the ranks.
the reasons why we don't see more PvP MMO's are several, and they do pool together to very effectively discourage development of such.
At it's heart the problem is a rarely noted gross conflict that occurs when you drop PVP into a progression based persistant world game such as a MMO. The underlying root core gameplay of teh two gaming styles are at cross purposes with diametrically opposed goals. These will eventually tear each other apart and kill your game. PVP seeks a win state. Escalating power to assure victory. But win states are an anathema to persistant worlds. So what happens is either you get PVP for no purpose and no goals, such as most modern MMO's, or you have a game that has PVP purpose, but small imbalances will eventually force a win state, at which point you lose most of your population (Shadowbane being the textbook example of this. Lose city hit cancel button). The two playstyles cannot be reconciled. Persistance and Progression mean that gross balances will occur in PVP. PVP with consequences will kill the persistance of the perstant world.
Add to this that PVP games are much much harder to tune and balance, minor imbalances will create huge problems and drive off paying customers. As a result the PVP games require a heavier development and support team, and more time is spent on tuning and fixing to the detriment of content generation. And lets not mention the increased support costs from simply dealing with the more competitive and cuthroat nature of a PVP playerbase. Hackers, foul language, total sociopaths, GM'ing a pvp game is not for the faint hearted.
PVP players tend to be a smaller audience then most really think, and they tend to be a much more fickle playerbase. Game makers will keep a PVP player for at best half the subscription period that they will a PVE player.
All of this adds up to PVE games are cheaper and easier to make, cause fewer problems, have fewer ongoing support expences, and generate a more stable playerbase that keeps paying longer. So that's where the investment and development dollars go.
I was going to suggest for some really good PVP of all sorts....try Jade Dynasty.
You can compete with characters...leveling, gold....crafting...monsters...pets....alot of things...
The game also keeps a board you can acess in game to see how you rate.
They even added a new board that compares you with other people who are about your same level...
And if you score high in any of those boards you are rewarded.....the game is a free to play with a cash shop...you can pretty much buy anything from other players...and can even buy the cash shop cash for ingame cash from the banker in the game....
And to get any of you started...here is an Induction ID that you can enter in when you make a new account...i think it gives you an extra amount of free stuff...like another box that you can open every 5 levels for free items for yuor character.
ID code:1020031X010803091002136Z11d21f
This isnt a first person shooter either....its an interesting fantasy game...surprising how much effort they put into it.
After reading this thread i had to point this game out....i admit its not totaly open pvp...i.e. the type that allows you to gank new players inthe starter town like Lineage 2...but it basicaly offeres pvp in almost every aspect of its game play.
Comments
Reasons why FFA PVP games do not do well
1. The bigger companies know they wont make big money with them
2. To many people now a days are scared to lose pixels.
3. Indies have been making them and people are scared to spend money on indie's as most of them are rocky as first..
4. To many People are scared to PVP. In a Real game...
5. Some idiots like to ruin it for others...(Mostly new players) They feed on the weak and find it funny so it ruins it for others..
I played asheron call for yrs and people can be jerks, they liek to kill only low level/ or sklled players, when they its someone there level they run.. Mostly kids do this...
We are starting to see more FFA pvp games made by indies which i,m glad they may not rake in the subs but they have smaller to med size community which is a good thing because it would be raping all day anyways so many of us like it like that in these games.
1. UO
2. Asheron call
3. Mortal online
4. Darkfall
5.Soon to be Xyson
Most of these are the only real FFA pvp games out there.... UO and AC was the only 2 games that had higher pop, and the reason is because ,US players back then where not jerks as much as kids are today by ganking low levels or skilled players,
Blame todays gamers for this, you will see less because of the way kids act, and this is a fact...
I enjoy PVE, but I enjoy real PVP, and no game out there gives me what I want in PVP but the games I named...none.
Sadly MO is not doing well but hopefully one day it does better, Darkfall people say it does bad. Theya re wrong I see fights where there is over 100 people there soo, I like to know where they are playing at...The game does not have 1 million subs and i,m glad...If that was the case none of us could PVe EVER...
AC and UO are just old...
Xyson if they do it right could be a great game ..I guess we will see.
Far as a COD MMO I bet blizzard is making one right now..... I bet any thing they are...
EQ/WOW-style mechanics are not the only way to make an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
As people have accurately commented already, there's a variety of factors that build on each other, that cause FFA PvP to not be as successful as it perhaps could be.
I'd categorise it:
1. MMORPG's vs FPS - a lot of the playerbase are not playing these games for direct competition. The market for that finds their satisfaction in FPS games, due to the problems with hybrid design of PvP in MMOs reducing the quality in both PvP and PvE where most MMORPG players are not looking for this game style. So it tries to achieve both but ends up compromising both. The current solution that works best is to separate PvP and PvE as much as possible. EG GW2 already learnt this (again demonstrating prescience that other developers seem to lack).
2. Open World PvP vs RvR PvP vs Arena/Structured PvP - FPS games are all about being able to blow the $%&"! out of the other player. That is the primary interaction and satisfaction and does not need to be earnt, as it's level playing field with everyone else on equal settings and expectations. In MMORPS, the interaction of the player with the world is about growing and caring for an avatar in the PvE setting. So seperating PvP makes sense to avoid spoiling this satisfaction and losing subs as a result and then that means PvP will go the way of FPS with Arena/Structured, but that is not the sort of PvP that MMOs could really make, so this hybrid solution is at least workable but limited, why not play a FPS for your PvP fix, in that case? The World or RvR type of free-for-all matches PvP in a PvE setting a bit better but in a separate space mixing PvE and PvP players (hopefully) and allows another type of PvP experience. BUT for a TRUE OPEN-WORLD PvP game, to be fully integrated the biggest design implementation needs to be a way for players to have to earn the right to PvP and suffer consequences that balance or mitigate players abusing this power. Until that is designed into the PvE world, it is only a niche/indie experiement.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I hate it when people say just play a FPS. If I want to play a shooter I will. That doesn't mean I don't have a craving to play something like oh that's say Shadowbane. When it comes to PVP I believe they had it at least close to right. I would say the main problem I saw with that game was the lowbie camping. Fun and entertaining for high levels to show off their power, yet at the same time it would often chase away the new player especially with full loot drop and equipment damage. What made that game fun was the GvG. Politics, mine fights and town battles. The drama alone at times would make the game entertaining especially when guilds that used to be allies would turn on each other. "Happened to the guild I was in". :P
I would have to agree that pre determined factions can ruin pvp in a game because most players opt to roll a character on the side that wins the most. Look at Guild Wars: Factions. Anybody that's ever spent enough time doing the alliance battles saw that exact same thing happen to the point where you would spend most of your time waiting to fight because the other side had a very low population.
I've been looking for a decent pvp game in the f2p market and so far it all seems the same. Pre determined factions, over powered item mall users, constant struggles with skill/class balancing, lowbie ganking, people calling other classes over powered every time they lose a fight, and so on.
Can there be a successful pvp slanted game? I think so, but with the current formula a lot of developers seem to be using right now, I don't think there will be.
*Wishes for a Shadowbane 2*
Guild Wars 1, Jade Dynasty, King of Kings III
Well nobody's asking for 100% FFA PVP. The OP specifically stated FFA PVP games suck (which I'd agree with. Even the "mostly FFA" games tend to be weak.)
The OP clearly wants a pure PVP experience like Chess, Starcraft, or Team Fortress 2: skill wins, zerging doesn't, progression doesn't.
Planetside is the only game I know of to maintain a pure PVP experience while being an MMO (although admittedly that was only the case after continent population limits were added.) Apart from that you can get nearly pure PVP from instanced games like WOW BGs, but typically it's diluted by progression having a significant influence -- and the PVP itself isn't Massive (apart from Alterac Valley...which I suppose is part of why I always liked AV.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
- In most of the games I play, I enjoy PvE or 'Fighting A.I' as you call it. I often find it very fun; Half-Life, Crysis, Fallout, Borderlands, etc., as well as MMOs like CoH or DDO.
- I am never in a hurry to get to the end level.
- I usually don't find playing the game and levelling up a grind. If I do, I quit that game.
- I have no desire to PvP in any way, shape or form in any video game ever.
We all like different things, but I think from the numbers it's fair to say that when it comes to MMOs, not that many people like full PvP all the time.
the reasons why we don't see more PvP MMO's are several, and they do pool together to very effectively discourage development of such.
At it's heart the problem is a rarely noted gross conflict that occurs when you drop PVP into a progression based persistant world game such as a MMO. The underlying root core gameplay of teh two gaming styles are at cross purposes with diametrically opposed goals. These will eventually tear each other apart and kill your game. PVP seeks a win state. Escalating power to assure victory. But win states are an anathema to persistant worlds. So what happens is either you get PVP for no purpose and no goals, such as most modern MMO's, or you have a game that has PVP purpose, but small imbalances will eventually force a win state, at which point you lose most of your population (Shadowbane being the textbook example of this. Lose city hit cancel button). The two playstyles cannot be reconciled. Persistance and Progression mean that gross balances will occur in PVP. PVP with consequences will kill the persistance of the perstant world.
Add to this that PVP games are much much harder to tune and balance, minor imbalances will create huge problems and drive off paying customers. As a result the PVP games require a heavier development and support team, and more time is spent on tuning and fixing to the detriment of content generation. And lets not mention the increased support costs from simply dealing with the more competitive and cuthroat nature of a PVP playerbase. Hackers, foul language, total sociopaths, GM'ing a pvp game is not for the faint hearted.
PVP players tend to be a smaller audience then most really think, and they tend to be a much more fickle playerbase. Game makers will keep a PVP player for at best half the subscription period that they will a PVE player.
All of this adds up to PVE games are cheaper and easier to make, cause fewer problems, have fewer ongoing support expences, and generate a more stable playerbase that keeps paying longer. So that's where the investment and development dollars go.
I was going to suggest for some really good PVP of all sorts....try Jade Dynasty.
You can compete with characters...leveling, gold....crafting...monsters...pets....alot of things...
The game also keeps a board you can acess in game to see how you rate.
They even added a new board that compares you with other people who are about your same level...
And if you score high in any of those boards you are rewarded.....the game is a free to play with a cash shop...you can pretty much buy anything from other players...and can even buy the cash shop cash for ingame cash from the banker in the game....
And to get any of you started...here is an Induction ID that you can enter in when you make a new account...i think it gives you an extra amount of free stuff...like another box that you can open every 5 levels for free items for yuor character.
ID code:1020031X010803091002136Z11d21f
This isnt a first person shooter either....its an interesting fantasy game...surprising how much effort they put into it.
After reading this thread i had to point this game out....i admit its not totaly open pvp...i.e. the type that allows you to gank new players inthe starter town like Lineage 2...but it basicaly offeres pvp in almost every aspect of its game play.