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Payment Model Scares Me
ShamanFaust
Member Posts: 43
So let me start by saying a big part of me loves the fact that its going to be free to play, I loved that about Guild Wars and I think that its very cool of them to try and keep it up with Guild Wars 2. But as I was reading the forums I started to really think about it and I realize that the idea of them not charging monthly scares me a little bit. I truly feel that the Dynamic Events system is one of the greatest innovations that you could bring to the MMO world. It is what I have been waiting for as long as I've played MMOs, a chance to feel like what Im doing actually changes something. Its amazing and fairly complex I have to imagine so that brings up a question.
If they're going to keep people employed to come up with new events and ideas and changes to a system that on its own is constantly in a state of change thanks to the players then Im not entirely sure that they can afford to support the game without a monthly fee. Now I've paid for games before, I did WoW in their like half year payment segments, occasionally I'd even be playing another game at the same time [back when I had money]. I dont mind paying for a good game if it means that the game gets support. And I understand the idea behind little cosmetic and quality of life improvements they could add in a shop. Things like more characters slots alone will probably have me digging through my pockets to throw money at them. But I cant beleive that it will be nearly the same.
So I just wanted to hear what everyone else things about them going with their current model and staying away from monthly payments. For it, against it [doubtful] and more importantly do you think it will affect the long term quality of the game?
Comments
Really if you have faith in the game and more importantly the company behind the game then just trust that they can pull off what they think they can. I was kind of late into the mmo genre simply because the foreign nature of monthly subscriptions, once I got in and began to better understand why they charged them my stance has softened but I was glad to see GW1 do that because it has offered balance in a genre where far too often we are being unjustly charged by companies with games with broken features and some with not even a months worth of content at launch.
I think if they say they can do it then they know something I don't, and I'd like to think that if it doesn't work out they'd be smart enough to change the system if that would be a big problem for the game.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I have a decent bit of faith in Arenanet and int eh teams behind Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. But I also understand how collosally bad an idea it would be to release a game as free to play and then go pay to play. The other has been happening quite a lot lately. For a game like Lotr where you have been pay to play for a long time and you've already gotten a decent bit of income back for your product I imagine going free to play isn't nearly as difficult. Its also probably made much easier by the shops that Lotr are currently using but that's beside the point.
Anyways I will have faith and Ill be happy to support them in any way I can but I'd rather start paying monthly, give them a good capital and then see it go free to play once they've really grounded themselves. I dont want Guild Wars 2 to be an amazing game that flops because of lack of funding. I dont honestly expect it, but it was a curious thought that came up. Thanks for the opinion though, happy to hear another fan having faith in them.
Once the game is finished, it won't take a huge dev team to keep things going. Besides, they'll still be putting out huge content updates by way of expansions that you will still have to pay for.
When you think about it, they could easily afford a team of just a few developers who do nothing but add new dynamic events. If the framework is built into the system, it should be easy for them to program new events.
well i donno about u but as far as i know most mmo players dont usualy stop at 1 character. as u know in guild wars one theres item locks that u have to buy or so i remember. i thinkt hey are 10$ per character. so even tho theres no monthly fee they will make up for it thru other ways of making u pay. its not much but considering how the game is doing so far. just buying the cd itself will make up for everything else. thats my thought :P(dont forget commercial matterial and other shit they sell on the real markets)
It will be as it was with GW. They release an expansion every 6 - 12 months same as the original. The expansions fund the future development of the game.
Arenanet have stated on many occassions that the "Monthly fee" for "Ongoing server costs" is a complete farce. Its more of a because you are naive enough to believe it is necessary type fee. I don't see any AAA First Player Shooters or RTS games charging a subscription (Modern Warfare, Battlefield, Supreme Commander, Company of Heroes, Sins of a Solar Empire the list is almost endless). MMO's also have cash shops and other fees that these other hugely successful genres do not.
Hmmm interesting how these other non-subscription game genre with less income streams never consider charging an ongoing fee. Just box sales just like GW & GW2. Don't fool yourself. The subscription fee has been called out and MMO providers will have difficulty justifying it in future. After all the sub games ALSO charge you for the box do they not.... Food for thought.
Developing the tools to create the new Tyria and the engine is what takes the most time. Creating event content in itself is not overly difficult it just takes time. They have all the tools and lots of assets can be re-used.
It would not suprise me if part of the GW2 team that has completed their work is already hard at work on the first expansion. They look to be in the polish and tweak and balance mode. Can't say for sure though.
Ahh. See this is a good point that I hadn't really thought out. I suppose that you could probably do a lot with a small team once you got the basic animations and framework in place for how to chain the Events. In fact if I think back to the Dynamic Events Panel where they had people design an event for the game they mentioned how a large part of it was simply figuring out if they had the animations for what they wanted to do. In my mind it sort of worked like a puzzle, taking an attack phase and pairing it with an escort and an optional side chain and you have the rough idea for what is going on. I really dont know how much effort goes into building an event chain though so that's all just my imagined idea. Still, you're probably right, once the bulk is in place it shouldn't be as hard to make smaller additions.
Also there are always big content expansions to pay for, which I'd be happy to see. There is after all more than one dragon out and about. So I suppose that it really isn't too scary after all.
Just to clarify.
In GW it should be noted that your 1st campaign got you 4 character slots. Each extra campaign you added gave you an extra 2 slots. EoTN didn't give any as it was not a campaign.
If you had Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall you got 8 slots before having to purchase more.
Although nothing about this has been said I would say something very similar will be implemented.
Why not argue that a $15/month fee can't support a game and they should charge $20/month? Sometimes more people paying less beats fewer people paying more, if it's a big enough difference in player population.
Most people who pick up a game don't stay with it for very long, even with online games. We don't see it so much because the players who play for a week and quit never become well-known in the community like some of the ones who hang around for a couple of years. But the people who run games sure see it. If they can get you to pay $50 to buy a box, they've made more money off you than if you paid $20 to buy a box and then quit before the "free" month ends.
Finally, server costs are vastly less than they used to be. A given amount of bandwidth and processing power may have cost a lot when online games got their start, but a couple of orders of magnitude less today.
I'd actually totally forgotten that was how character slots were opened up for me in the past. I'd just had the games for so long I forgot that it initially started at four and worked up to what I have now. Well that would make sense that they might do that again for GW2 although for some reason I expect more than four at first. Maybe between four and eight since at this point I imagine most Guild Wars fans are use to having the eight from the expansions. Either way, they'll probably get some money out of me for character slots.
Quote from Jeff Strain Speech on making a successful MMO:
As more MMOs came into the market, two things changed. First, players now had a choice about which game they would play, and as a result their expectations for polish, content quantity, and service increased substantially. Second, and perhaps more telling for the future of the industry, it became clear that the subscription model forced players to choose a single game, rather than playing many different games.
Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It’s not true – you know it, and they know it. Gamers may buy the argument that your MMO requires a subscription fee, if you can tell them what they are getting for their money. This is the legacy of games like Guild Wars, Maple Story, and Silkroad Online, all of which introduced new business models into the MMO genre and were quite successful. The subscription model is still perfectly viable, but the pain threshold is very low now. It’s no secret that gamers don’t want to pay a subscription fee. If you can convince them that your game offers enough value to justify it, more power to you! But be prepared to defend your decision, often and loudly, and back it up over the lifetime of your game.
Be very aware of the choice you are asking players to make, and the frequency of that choice. In a subscription model you are asking players to make a choice every month, and it is a fairly drastic choice: Stay married, or get divorced? It is certainly the case that if every player decides to stay married every month, you can make more money from each player in the subscription model. But that will rarely be the case, and not something that you should count on. Every month, some percentage of your player base will decide on divorce, and as with marriage in the real word, once you are divorced you rarely get married to the same person again. If you go the subscription route, you’ll need to have the confidence that your marriage rate will exceed your divorce rate.
With Guild Wars we ask players to make a choice only one time, and that choice is whether to buy the game, or not to buy the game. While we don’t enjoy a recurring revenue stream each month, we do benefit from the fact that most Guild Wars players come back to the game when we release new content, so we are less concerned about players putting the game down for a few months. Players don’t have to decide whether to stay married or get divorced, they just have to decide whether they want to play today or not. Beyond the benefit of a lower pain threshold to get into the game, this is the core strength of the Guild Wars business model, and one of the reasons it continues to thrive when many other subscription-based MMOs are struggling.
Innovate with your game play, and innovate with your business model! The two go hand in hand, and are mutually dependent on each other. Decide on your business model first, and then build your game around it. Guild Wars can be successful with its business model because we decided that we would not charge a subscription fee before we wrote the first line of code, and every design and technology decision we made served that purpose. We could never turn Guild Wars into a subscription-based game, just as Turbine could not suddenly decide to eliminate the subscription model for Lord of the Rings Online. If you decide to require players to subscribe to your game, be prepared to build a game that thoroughly justifies it.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Buy to play model attracts me greatly to GW2. They have done well with GW1 and know what it takes to maintain a service with box sales. Back when the MMO marketplace started it made sense to have a subscription fee due to how small the market was. Now that it is a huge growth market, subscription fees are no longer necessary. This is the way to truly grow the market even further! Long live Arenanet!
Archlinux ftw
The fact Jeff used LOTRO in the end of his article made me laugh a bit, though it was perfectly "solid" that LOTRO was a successful P2P game in 2007 when the article was written.
Anyway, please don't compare GW's model with "F2P". It's not F2P and that is why you will never see a full-scale cash shop with it. Their revenue relies mostly on game content sales (the core game, expansions, campaigns, or whatever else they will be called in GW2). F2P games rely on cash shop item sales.
One of the main reasons why I had even bothered with Guild Wars 1 in the first place was that it was free to play. Before I even knew about Guild Wars I had my eyes on World of Warcraft. However I just couldn't get myself to dish out the subscription fee. Once I buy a game I don't want to continue to pay for it just to keep playing it. So there I was in Guild Wars 1 and I got more than my moneys worth out of that game and all of the expansions. I still feel the same with Guild Wars 2 on the horizon. I'm not really worried about what is going to happen in the long term. Again look at Guild Wars 1, the servers are still live and people still continue to play it.
Guild Wars 1, Jade Dynasty, King of Kings III
The console market has thrived on the B2P strategy for years and they still manage to crank out a slew of games. What makes you think mmo devs cannot do the same thing. Especially when a company already has the team, servers and gameplan mapped out. Seriously have you ever seen a server room? It's a fairly small room with 3 or 4 refrigerator sized server towers in the room. With a a/c unit and a temp alarm stuck on the wall. It usually goes unmonitored by an actual person for days at a time...........trust me, they ain't hurtin for money.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
LoTRO is only technically free. To unlock the extra content a player must restart from scratch and grind out deeds on multiple servers in order to fully unlock content on their "Main" server. I am seeing existing players returning only to find that their characters are locked because they aren't subbing. Their money capped and have no access to certain areas unless they pay. The quest pack are not really all that cheap either.
You only get Bree, Lone Lands, Shire, Ered Luin and North Downs for free I think. I am a VIP as I took a deal too good to turn down. $60 for 6 months at a time. It fits the timeframe of the expansions that I so far haven't paid for... Its a pretty good deal I reckon.
Still free is free and their should be some cost associated as it is a business after all. I am curious for Turbine's move to F2P and their reasoning for it. Maybe they have seen the changes in the wind and are moving to pre-empt it.
If this is a sign of things to come then other sub based MMO's that fail to adapt or provide justification for fees it will have a turbulent time.
the first Guildwars is still pretty solid with loads of content even if it is aging fast now.
ANET is claiming that monthly fees are a rest from when bamdwidth and servers were really expensive in the late 90s and companies don't want to quit because they are earning loads of money on it... They also claim that the amount of data sent with GW2 is more or less the same as for the first GW.
I believe that they can pull this off but expect and expansion every 9 month or so. Do you really think that Wow and similar games uses most of those 15 bucks a month instead of putting it in their pockets?
The bad news is that the customer service might not be top notch, to have a 24/7 phone line on a B2P model is too expensive.
This is a very good thread. The OP raised valid questions, and the other posters have addressed them in a very cogent and courteous manner. Thanks, all.
I really like the Arena Net model, I have been very pleased with the GW material I've bought (2 copies of Prophecies (one of them game of the year ed.)), the deluxe Nightfall, and Eye of the North). The only complaint I have is that some of the end-game content is difficult for me to complete, I'm making an educated guess that I would be able to finish content if I had guild members with me instead of henchmen, so it doesn't bother me much.
I am willing to trust ArenaNet their programmers/developers, and their model. Even if I wasn't, saving up and buying a main box, then an expansion or two once or twice a year fits into my budget better.
What ArenaNet has been doing is presenting valuable, valid options to gamers.
All Hail Guild Wars!
I was actually just thinking about how pleased I was to see such thought out and well mannered replies myself. Its been a pretty nice thread and people made some very good points along the way. Although the interview was extremely funny given the reference to Lotr given the current state of the game.
Loke brought up an interesting point about phone lines though. Online service probably wouldn't be as expensive to maintain but comes with problems of its own of course and isn't able to address all of the problems you might run into. But I certainly dont mind an expansion in 6-9 months, I happily await it. I've already accepted that my social life is going to take a hit to the gut in 2011 when it finally releases [provided all things go well].
Back to jfk, yeah players make a pretty big difference. I tend to be a shy person, even in online games for some reason so I went through most of the games using NPCs. But when a few friends started to play the difference was noticable. I think GW2 will make it even easier to start working with people though. Without stealing experience, the collaborative environment on their dynamic events just seems so wonderfully set up to foster that sense of cooperation. So Im looking forward to that quite a bit. And hail Guild Wars indeed.
Unfortunately developers are not the only thing you pay for when paying for an online game. First, there's the Database, which if there isn't a specific DBA then it's taking away from the team. Then there's the upkeep of the servers, the maintanence, the upgrading, and just the plain utility bills. There's R and D which can be developers but usually unlcudes more than just devs including internal play testing which is typically handled by a QA department. You also have the actual in game GMs to consider, they are typically paid. There is just so much more than dev's pay to worry about. But...
Look at GW1, it survived and is still thriving now. It is still free to play with bought frills that no one actually needs. NCSoft and Arena net are strong and very good at what they do. It will be good, it will remain free to play, and will last just as long if not longer than GW1. I would not worry about it, I would embrace it.
Not to mention NCSoft has disposable income. They are not a small company, and Guild Wars 2 isn't going to be there only source of income.
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Live a life less ordinary.
actually I would go as far to say that the buy to play model creates more of a quality product. they can't coast along like most MMO's with a monthly fee and create have backed patches like most MMO's do. Each of their expansions has to be a really high quality product to bring in the income or people will not buy the expansion. They are almost required to create quality game experience just to keep the content of the game going.
Look at what blizzard does, all that money and they still only do enough to keep the game going.
It all worked out in Guild Wars just fine, it will work for GW2 just fine.
Lots of Love,
Killhurt
I don't think they would ever switch, there's other ways for them to earn their cash.
Boxed Expansions and Microtransactions (Itemshop), they might even sell the extensions.