I love this series, it highlights almost 100% of what I believe. Seems strange to me that if someone disagrees with a small portion of your article, they blow up about it, and leave out the parts they do agree with. Why would anyone compliment? It is so much easier to attack!
The social part of new MMO's is completely gone. They are so user friendly, that they are not difficult any more. Most games go this route because the market is larger for that audience. I have yet to see a game come out that reflects what alot of people are seeking in new MMOs: a challenge.
+1
So much easier to pick out the small detail you don't like and rant and rave like the opnion was forced on you,
Someone let me know when this article is finished with all its parts, then send me the abridged version.
Thanks.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Its true that crafting was a gem back then. Problem was that back then in order to craft, some of the materials obtained really took forever to obtain or you needed a party. Anyone here remember how Crafting work in Lineage 2? It was downright horrible at higher levels...
Look at the Crafting in Final Fantasy XI. You literally had to face a certain direction and wait to a certain day to have the highest chance to craft. I am sure that was fun as I didn't mind, but most of the recipes that counted were the ones at the maximum level in Crafting.
In the past it took a very long time to craft good items, but your items sold....However today you can craft 100s of items and only a few sell. The amazing thing is that many players will not buy items today from crafter thinking they are being "ripped" off and now it becomes politics....
These are the same people who tell you that MMORPGs are about "hard work" and "paying monthly fees" to torture yourself in doing hardwork. This is what happens when something becomes mainstream.
What the Author forgets is that back then few MMOs existed along with few players. Today many bad MMOs exist along with many gamers to play them....the whole landscape has changed enough that people are questioning things.
MMORPG is truly a genre where little has changed in the last 10 years outside of graphics. The same problems that plagued the 2.5D MMOs plague the 3D versions.
I mostly agree with crafting for a few reasons. The old crafting systems relied on exactly as was stated, guilds and fan guides and printing documents to figure out how to do things because there was almost no information in game of what to do. Newer games, recipes, guidance are all mostly in game (FF seems to be a major exception), and its accessible to pretty much anyone to enjoy and be a crafter. It does feel like crafting is often overlooked or hardly necessary in some newer games (FF another big exception). And it's a lot busier, focusing on grinding skill instead of making useful items for the community. I am not sure if the spread is as large and posted, but i would give a nod to newer games because the mechanics are better. I would like to see newer games do better with integration without hitting some of the extremes FF has done.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
If older game design was so much better than current, then why aren't older games still thriving? Why are newer games that try to catch the older game feel with updated graphics (Vanguard/Darkfall) barely surviving? If there were enough old school gamers out there who would play a newer version of those games, then I am surprised no companies have jumped on that market. I just don't think there are enough gamers out there to support a major investment into a game that feels like games from almost ten years ago. Change can be difficult to deal with, but it is also inevitable.
Because now it's all about accessiblity. Better doesn't always appeal to the masses because of value (Time or cost).
Why would you ever go to a McDonald's when you could go to a fine, 5 star resturant? Time and accessibility. You can show up at McDonald's in your PJ's and still get a hamburger that does the job for a buck. At the resturant, you may have to wear nice cloths and pay something for it, maybe even have to make a reservation.
The problem with this is, some people appreciate the EXPERIENCE of going to a nice resturant, the environment, the detail, care, and quality of the food. Others just want to fill their stomachs and get on with their day. Either approach is, quite frankly, fine. There's nothing wrong with either. It's just no one is making any more nice resturants, so newer players will never have the opportunity to appreciate a fine dining experience who may have greatly enjoyed it, and older players fondly remember.
Most people like things cheap, fast, and uncomplicated. Hence, the new generation is the most profitable.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
wow, i've been reading your atricle (every part) so far, but thanks to this one, I feel like you're simply attempting to cause controversy to get people trolling. First of all, your arguments make no sense, and you bash yourself to make us keep reading throughout the article. I understand its your own personal opinion but the way you present it, you write like you're an experienced old-school gamer, when to me you sound like a 20 year old, upset he cant handle/like WoW or leading games of that genre and keep dreaming about the past. Yes, a lot of us played UO, EQ, EQ2, AoC, DaOC, etc.. but your arguments are invalid because this is part of evolution, its streamlined, you can still find rare creeps/items still have WAY better crafting (AION, Fallen Earth, DarkFall) , still find huge environments to run across, (MAPS are bigger than ever!). If you like a timesink where u can grind gnolls in BB for 4 days, good for you... the rest of us have lives, and we try to mix up gaming as a hobby in there, ok some play all day (but the point is we like progress, in 2010 we cant handle stagnation,) OH< and wtf are u talking about the whole point is grinding.. the POINT is to get to max level -- thats basically where the game begins, everything up to there is training for end-game content, slowly introducing your skills to get you used to them. End-game is where most of the fun and memorable moments happen. How do you even comment on something that you admit you never got to>? Thats like a catholic priest giving me advice on relationships.
Accept the new-school and have some perspective when you criticize.. stop throwing out statements based on limited experience and faint memories of when you used to play one of your first MMO's. To be a good article writer you must be able to base your research on something. We all loved those games, but its time to move on, nobody has time to grind for 75 days and not even hit max level.
Grow up, move on, and stop living in the past, the dungeons in today's games are just as scary, the only reason they're not scary in Wow is because we all grinded them way too many times, and they're made that way due to the large audience they reach out to. Maybe stop using WoW and EQ as your point of reference for new vs old would help?
How can some of you say that a game like WoW has bad crafting because crafters can make nothing usable by players? Seriously, have you played WoW past BC at all? On my priestess a 1/4 of her gear is player made and most are enhanced by player made items and enchants. WoW's crafting may not be great, but at least compared to most newer MMORPG's WoW's actually matters. EvE's works the way it does because that is how the game was designed. So crafting, as in anything a player does in EvE, makes a difference.
As for old games, SWG and DAoC's had the best crafting systems of any I have played. None can come close.
Wow!!!! I'm going to disagree big time with you when it comes to crafting in older mmos.
Crafting was everything, the older games basically revolved around crafting.
Crafting in todays games are a side mini game while in older games crafting was the life blood!
I honestly think the OP did that on purpose for a reaction even the old school mmo haters know how important crafting was in those games.
After reading that I've honestly lost all interest in the rest of this series...
Edit: Man... I'm generally pissed at this dudes opinion. I just feel really strongly about crafting in older games. From UO to EVE crafting has been much more indepth and generally important game wide than in todays offerings. Only two games could make a case for half decent crafting. Vanguard & Fallen Earth other than that crafting has been worthless imo.
i agree. crafting is one of the main reasons i got into mmorpgs to begin with.
wow, i've been reading your atricle (every part) so far, but thanks to this one, I feel like you're simply attempting to cause controversy to get people trolling. First of all, your arguments make no sense, and you bash yourself to make us keep reading throughout the article. I understand its your own personal opinion but the way you present it, you write like you're an experienced old-school gamer, when to me you sound like a 20 year old, upset he cant handle/like WoW or leading games of that genre and keep dreaming about the past. Yes, a lot of us played UO, EQ, EQ2, AoC, DaOC, etc.. but your arguments are invalid because this is part of evolution (you meen devolution), its streamlined(simple), you can still find rare creeps/items still have WAY better crafting (AION, Fallen Earth, DarkFall) , still find huge environments to run across, (MAPS are bigger than ever!)(cut and past repetition of existing zones). If you like a timesink where u can grind gnolls in BB for 4 days, good for you... the rest of us have lives, and we try to mix up gaming as a hobby in there, ok some play all day (but the point is we like progress, in 2010 we cant handle stagnation,) OH< and wtf are u talking about the whole point is grinding.. the POINT is to get to max level -- thats basically where the game begins(why bother with levels or charecter progression at all), everything up to there is training for end-game content, slowly introducing your skills to get you used to them. End-game is where most of the fun and memorable moments happen(some of the best gaming ive played were on the jorney to max, most of the worst were endgame). How do you even comment on something that you admit you never got to>? Thats like a catholic priest giving me advice on relationships.
Accept the new-school (Never)and have some perspective when you criticize.. stop throwing out statements based on limited experience and faint memories of when you used to play one of your first MMO's. To be a good article writer you must be able to base your research on something. We all loved those games, but its time to move on, nobody has time to grind for 75 days and not even hit max level.(so you would probably like it over and done with in maybe a day or two)
Grow up, move on, and stop living in the past, the dungeons in today's games are just as scary, the only reason they're not scary in Wow is because we all grinded them way too many times, and they're made that way due to the large audience they reach out to. Maybe stop using WoW and EQ as your point of reference for new vs old would help?( ok maybe not EQ2 but deffinatly WoW)
Just a thought..
I think there needs to be a point to the meening massivly multiplayer online game. the the word mmo is slaped on pritty much everything these days simply because it allows 100 pluss players to connect to a zone at any time. befor mmos game about i was content as a casual player to play casual games that were available at the time. games that only took an hour or two of my time in a night and i only ever played them once or twice a week. then someone introduced me to Ultima online and then it was mor like five or six hours every night. the reason for this is because of I felt like part of the online community, a huge leviathan that spred across several country's. I had never even spoken to anyone from germany, switzerland or even canader until i started playing ultima online. I had a vast world to explore that brought up more and more suprizes the further I explored. yYu could say that I was! living in a fantacy world, were i spent far too much of my time and should have gone out and done real life things a great deal more. But thats what mmos should be all about. otherwise whats the point. I may aswell go back to the casual style of games that were around before I ever got hooked onto mmos. WoW deserves credit for one thing and one thing only. It has managed to acheive the point of making an mmo feel like a very casual and easy game that appeals the everyone. The problem is it no longer appeal's to the grass roots playerbase that the word mmo was built apon.
Just stop this moronic charade and give your 100/100 score to your long lost love eq1 and your 1/100 score to the easy mode games you despise(wow and its clones). Enjoy driving your model T( when you're not walking uphill both ways in a snowstorm to school that is.)
Wow!!!! I'm going to disagree big time with you when it comes to crafting in older mmos.
Crafting was everything, the older games basically revolved around crafting.
Crafting in todays games are a side mini game while in older games crafting was the life blood!
I honestly think the OP did that on purpose for a reaction even the old school mmo haters know how important crafting was in those games.
After reading that I've honestly lost all interest in the rest of this series...
Edit: Man... I'm generally pissed at this dudes opinion. I just feel really strongly about crafting in older games. From UO to EVE crafting has been much more indepth and generally important game wide than in todays offerings. Only two games could make a case for half decent crafting. Vanguard & Fallen Earth other than that crafting has been worthless imo.
I think you have to look at it from the perspective of the game he was most familiar with. Crafting in EQ (at least up to Kunark) was pretty useless, the gear you could make was inferior to anything you could loot and other than some minor consumables served little point. That said, I would have to agree that the crafting in SWG was likely the best implementaion of crafting of all MMOs I've played (I didn't play UO). Eve as well is very solid, though I find its crafting a little boring, yet everything is player driven as a result.
I do see the author's point with regards to immersion levels however. All newer mmo's I've played in the past several years are far too linear and guide the players hand and it really does lessen the immersion factor, not to mention the ease of play. While I am not quite as nostalgic of naked corpse runs, or dragging everyone's corpses to the safe corner in Hate after a wipe (and the subsequent experience loss), there was a palpable sense of anxiety in raids that is totally lacking in the current crop of MMOs.
When comparing running raids in EQ (Fear breaks, clearing islands in Sky, Hate to a lesser extent) versus say raids in LOTRO or any other newer mmo there's no comparison. Wiping on the Balrog while leading raids in LOTRO merits little more than a yawn and okay everyone gather up again. The anticipation and anxiety of a Fear break and knowing that one bad pull could end up in a chain reaction that would wipe everyone and possibly end up with the entire raid teams corpses being unrecoverable added an actual element of danger that is simply non-existent in todays MMO landscape. Whether that's a good or bad thing is obviously up to the individual, heck I vacilate on that myself depending on my mood.
I also find that older games did have a bit more of a sense of community, though part of that I think could be attributed to poor game mechanics (anyone who was a rogue in the early days of EQ knows exactly what I'm talking about) as well as the forced interaction with the need to group and the need to physically sell something. The ease of soloing and auction houses in todays games removes any actual need for interaction with other players. Those two things did lend a sense of community that a lot of games just don't have anymore. Heck the broken gameplay of rogues in EQ led directly and indirectly to the creation of the Safehouse, probably the best gaming community I was ever a part of.
Another thing that seems to be missing nowadays is a sense of accomplishment when it comes to questing. Albeit that was broken by the MMO community back in the day too with spoiler sites, quest walkthroughs etc. Still its rare to find an MMO nowadays where you get a quest that doesn't have a marker telling you exactly where to go and what to do. That's not a quest, that's a flowchart. I can't even remember with clarity a single quest I've done in any MMO in the past few years, whereas I can still remember the entire weekend myself and several other rogues spent poring over the original Burning pile of poop (er rapier) quest that was implemented. Figuring out the very vague clues, where to go what to do etc. It was inter-server community news when our little group solved it, and one of us got the item. Of course it was also news in how pathetic the item in question was, but the end item is irrelevant almost a decade later, what I remember is running all over the world with my other rogue buddies figuring it out. That sort of immersion just doesn't exist anymore, although as I indicated above it barely existed then too, as shortly after those class quests were figured out online guides existed detailing exactly what to do to finish them off.
On the anti-nostalgia side though I don't miss things like dragons only spawning on server repop resulting in the time-zone blessed guilds getting first crack at them, massive downtime between fights, camping a single room in Guk etc.
ok iv been thinking about wow and what makes it the game that it is and Ive been thinking to myself, why is it the game what it is and what did they do that was so different to get its playerbase that it has today. I found myself coming to the conclution that Blizzard didnt actualy do very much revolutionary at all. Infact alot of what they put into the game had allready been done in the mmo's that were already available at the time. The difference is WoW pick up most of all the good bits from all of them and left out what the thought were the bad bits. this worked, and I myself found that the game was very familia to me and even though the servers tended to fall over a fair bit due to the masses of players that were as hooked as I was. I was quite happy with what I had purchased. The trouble is that blizzard havent moved a great deal in their game designe over the years that it has been release. I found myself running all to similar content with each subsiquent expantion and I found myself more and more in need of something new. The point that im getting at is that wow isnt a new game in its essence. You will find that the game is pritty much made up of tryed and tested idea's that were in most of the games that about before wow ever existed. So its bizzar that so many developers want to copy the wow model when it simply dosnt offer anything new. The only reason i can see for this repetion is that its an easy way to make a quick buck. its a safe bet that you will get a revanue from your investment.
You know I like his series of Articles, for one it emphasises, the fact that many games lack what the players really want, and it is odd because the players have been expressing what they really want all allong.
In any case, I agree with this article, but not with the results conserning Crafting, while yes, only a couple of games amidst the old ones trully shine in terms of crafting, Ultima Online and SWG (Pre-NGE), both essentially usingthe same Crafting system, version 1 and version 2 respectivelly.
None of the new MMORPG's have surpassed the two affore mentioned anyways. Therefore overall for me Crafting was better in the Older games mainly resting upon the shoulders of these two games.
The rest I agree with todays Social factor and Guilds are basically meaningless. As well as Progression systems. I loved UO's skill based progression system and then SWG's (pre-NGE_ also skill based Systems (again Version 1 and version 2, since SWG was practically based on UO's design within the SW setting).
Not even Darkfall managed to offer anything reminescent of old MMO's..even it proclaims to have gotten inspiration from UO. In practice it is nothing like UO, it is even upseting to even compare the two together.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I rather enjoyed the way crafting was dealt with in Shadowbane... that is to say, none. You hired a shopkeep to do the work for you and could upgrade the NPC to make better stuff... Literally taking the grinding out of crafting in that arena.
I did enjoy some of the Ultima Online crafting but I was also 17 at the time and didn't have responsibilities that sucked up my time. I also did not know any better. Nevertheless, I do not view crafting from Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Vanguard, EQ1, etc... as good vs bad but rather fun vs boring.
To me, I would favor an NPC crafting shopkeep who the player could supply with special goods and who could create a multitude of conceptual ideas... But, to me, crafting must be a critical portion of the game to have any real meaning. That is, in order to survive, you need some crafted/shopkeep made materials that are not necessarily time consuming to make but ultimately valuable.
I also feel, time sinks are unacceptable and any game that has any kind of 'perceived' time sink is of poor taste regardless of quality. I believe, that a good designer/programmer can create an environment within an MMO(actual RPG) that will not be perceived as containing a time sink. I believe it is possible, I believe it will be entertaining, I believe it will be fun.
If it doesn't come before I do it, then I'll show you when I am able. I still have a long way to go though..
I agree that crafting in general in the old mmo's were quite bad though there were exceptions.
However, the point I'd like to make and that I believe is important, is that the idea that crafting and gathering is something everyone should do paralell to playing their roles, does not belong to the old, it belongs to the new. And that's where new has gone astray.
Wether it was mechanically exclusive or just practically inaccessible is not important. What's important is that crafting lost it's function and role identity and made the mmo worlds poorer, not richer.
i've never played any really old style games but for those that think that crafting ins't needed in new MMO games you need not look any farther then a game this is coming into offical open beta this october 13th...vindictus... crafting is key to those who want the best armor and don't wanna pay every cent they have in the marketplace to get it...it gives crafting more of a challenge by having to kill specific mobs to get an item you need that will rarely drop this i find makes crafting worthwhile because in the end it pays off...other then that i have never played a game with a crafting system i really enjoyed...aion has a good crafting system and its very rewarding as well depending on the item you craft but it wasn't rewarding enough and no one seemed to do it so if you think new games have sucky crafting systems play vindictus because its worth the effort
The biggest part of this article I disagree with is for the fact that aside from the writer's bias on deciding which side of the argument wins out in each of the categories, it's also the various weights. Why does New MMO's win on crafting by 3, but lose by 4 in the Guilds department? The writer is trying to be the sole decider on each of these weights when a more objective approach would be a straight counting of wins and losses across each of these categories i.e. 1 win for Crafting for New MMO's and 1 win for Guilds for Old MMO's.
Right now, this 3 part series is becoming slightly ridiculous and I'm starting to identify less and less with the article as it merely reflects the writers' opinions which many can disagree with on multiple points. A fairly lackluster 5 parter series in which started as an exciting topic.
Originally posted by Jairoe03 The biggest part of this article I disagree with is for the fact that aside from the writer's bias on deciding which side of the argument wins out in each of the categories, it's also the various weights. Why does New MMO's win on crafting by 3, but lose by 4 in the Guilds department? The writer is trying to be the sole decider on each of these weights when a more objective approach would be a straight counting of wins and losses across each of these categories i.e. 1 win for Crafting for New MMO's and 1 win for Guilds for Old MMO's. Right now, this 3 part series is becoming slightly ridiculous and I'm starting to identify less and less with the article as it merely reflects the writers' opinions which many can disagree with on multiple points. A fairly lackluster 5 parter series in which started as an exciting topic.
In this case I think he should have included a poll for each catagory.
Intel Core i7 7700K, MB is Gigabyte Z270X-UD5 SSD x2, 4TB WD Black HHD, 32GB RAM, MSI GTX 980 Ti Lightning LE video card
You know this arguement is never worth fighting. There is a completely new and different generation of players playing MMO's now. Plus MMO's are becoming more mainstream. Trying to convince the new generations that old MMO's were great will just not work.
Most people who read these posts about how good it use to be immediatley go on a rant about how time sinks and difficulty and other bad aspects of classic mmo's suck so much. But people like me who want classic MMO's are not trying to push things like that. When we talk about how great EQ was its not for the actual game system but rather the experience you had.
I guess the only example I could use is football. I could spend weeks perfecting my Madden 2010 game skills and by the end of the month be whooping all my friends butts.
OR I could spend months practicing with a real football team. Become the best at my position and on game day whoop somebody's butt.
Sure the latter took longer and I actually had to go outside, waste time at practices and what not, but the reards are alot better.
Lets also take WoW and EQ, as both games are good examples of their respective timeframes. EQ I would play hours a day. Player the game for two years with a great guild. At the end of the two years I looked at my characeter saw two years of development and as corny as it sounds felt proud that my character developed so far.
With wow I did the same thing but played even longer. Hours a day for 3 years then I looked at my character and thought, oh my, three years playing my druid and theres nothing I have that some schmuk couldnt get in 3 months of grinidng to max level.
This also works in reverese. In EQ I remember playing and seeing other players with such awesome gear and think, there's no way I will be abel to get any of that stuff. But after months of playing I start to see slwoly but surely its doable but will be challenging. In games like WoW, I see a decked out class I just think, meh I could roll one and have the same gear in like 3 months.
Bottom line: Yes, newer MMO's have made the game more accessable and more fun for the mass market and casual players. But in turn, MMO's lost their "epic" feel.
I know many disagree with me and the OP but thats just my opinion.
The fact is that in old MMOs, crafting took a huge time investment but also ended up providing good products (unless that MMO was broken on that part. DAoC was not and you say UO neither was).
The consequence was that not every player would be a crafter. It was a matter of choice and it was rewarding.
Nowadays, crafting has been simplified (which can be seen as a progress), but in fact over-simplified and doesn't take any near the same time investment.
The consequence is that ANY player can be a crafter, or even MUST be a crafter. It is almost as craft is a base part of you character, like race or class (I'm exagerating, just a bit).
The problem is that crafting products must then be (and are) of mediocre usefulness - Otherwise any crafter (thus any player) would have access to top products easily.
As a craft lover, I can tell you I hardly can name a modern MMO with a satisfaying crafting system (I have been told SWG was, but I did not have the chance to try it).
At least WoW, LotRO, WAR certainly aren't, and I suspect Aion neither is.
I would name Ryzom maybe, especially because it has the best resource gathering system I have seen so far.
In a way you make it sound as though you like crafting so much that it would be a game unto itself ... Farmville?
I feel that crafting should be easy to perform and early crafting should be inexpensive. I do not like to run around finding ten thousand flowers or whatever to level up, plus the time spent in actual crafting. Also, crafting should be completely spelled out in a game. How can people know where parts A, B, and C are if they do not have a clue?
Also, crafted items SHOULD be among the best items in the game, otherwise, why make people kill thousands of mobs, to get drops, then skin or salvage, rinse and repeat, thousands of times to get at the top or your craft?
Most people do not seem to appreciate how much time someone spends crafting. They need rewared in some manner, so, do not try to give them 85 gold when something cost 750 gold to make. And, don't expect them to stop what they are doing and make you a full set of armor, a shield, and sword, spellcraft it [or whatever the name is in different games], and use alchemy skill to polish it off.
I do not look at crafting as fun, I look at it as a necessary evil of games. At the same time, game creators should reward crafters with outstanding gear.
Now, if someone loves Farmville, buys an MMO, and only wants to craft, I see nothing wrong with that. However, sooner or later he or she might pull his or her head out of the ground and see what the game really has to offer [hopefully].
This is a good example of the state of mmorpgs today. Completely lost its roots. We dont play mmorpgs anymore, we play action games online. Somehow we have duped ourselves into thinking they are mmorpgs. They are not. Its just a bunch of other genres that you can play online with a bunch of other people.
An mmorpg is supposed to be a virtual world. I think that concept gets missed by too many developers these days.
You hit the nail on its head. These new MMOs (I left the RPG out for a reason) are nothing more than glorified single player action games than they are true MMORPGs.
It's all about the dollar. Major publishers want to be confident in the money they are spending. The MMO market is a highly violatile and compettive one....and these big publishers want some assurances on their investment.
In order for developers to assure and instill confidence in their product, they must have complete control over the content and how its consumed. This allows the developers to determine where players are at any given point in their game progression....which helps establish a time line on when expansions need to be released, in addition to allowing developers to be proactive in their development.
How do you establish control of the content?
You make the game revolve solely around gear......and then you control how the gear is distributed. If crafters were able to create the same items that you can get from a 25 man raid dungeon, then why would you raid for it? If there is an alternative way to get gear in the game, then the developers ceed some of that content control to the players and undermine the whole reason they go the linear progression route in the first place.
This is why games that use crafting more than a side show are typically associated with sand box type environments.....and also the reason you don't see it in all the new linear theme park MMOs.
If the model of choice from a MMO development standpoint is around content control based on a gear progression system......don't expect to see things like crafters, player driven economy, or other alternative non-combat progression paths to get a lot of attention in future MMOs.
Comments
+1
So much easier to pick out the small detail you don't like and rant and rave like the opnion was forced on you,
Someone let me know when this article is finished with all its parts, then send me the abridged version.
Thanks.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
"things are hotting up" lol
Hmm...Crafting
Its true that crafting was a gem back then. Problem was that back then in order to craft, some of the materials obtained really took forever to obtain or you needed a party. Anyone here remember how Crafting work in Lineage 2? It was downright horrible at higher levels...
Look at the Crafting in Final Fantasy XI. You literally had to face a certain direction and wait to a certain day to have the highest chance to craft. I am sure that was fun as I didn't mind, but most of the recipes that counted were the ones at the maximum level in Crafting.
In the past it took a very long time to craft good items, but your items sold....However today you can craft 100s of items and only a few sell. The amazing thing is that many players will not buy items today from crafter thinking they are being "ripped" off and now it becomes politics....
These are the same people who tell you that MMORPGs are about "hard work" and "paying monthly fees" to torture yourself in doing hardwork. This is what happens when something becomes mainstream.
What the Author forgets is that back then few MMOs existed along with few players. Today many bad MMOs exist along with many gamers to play them....the whole landscape has changed enough that people are questioning things.
MMORPG is truly a genre where little has changed in the last 10 years outside of graphics. The same problems that plagued the 2.5D MMOs plague the 3D versions.
I mostly agree with crafting for a few reasons. The old crafting systems relied on exactly as was stated, guilds and fan guides and printing documents to figure out how to do things because there was almost no information in game of what to do. Newer games, recipes, guidance are all mostly in game (FF seems to be a major exception), and its accessible to pretty much anyone to enjoy and be a crafter. It does feel like crafting is often overlooked or hardly necessary in some newer games (FF another big exception). And it's a lot busier, focusing on grinding skill instead of making useful items for the community. I am not sure if the spread is as large and posted, but i would give a nod to newer games because the mechanics are better. I would like to see newer games do better with integration without hitting some of the extremes FF has done.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
wow, i've been reading your atricle (every part) so far, but thanks to this one, I feel like you're simply attempting to cause controversy to get people trolling. First of all, your arguments make no sense, and you bash yourself to make us keep reading throughout the article. I understand its your own personal opinion but the way you present it, you write like you're an experienced old-school gamer, when to me you sound like a 20 year old, upset he cant handle/like WoW or leading games of that genre and keep dreaming about the past. Yes, a lot of us played UO, EQ, EQ2, AoC, DaOC, etc.. but your arguments are invalid because this is part of evolution, its streamlined, you can still find rare creeps/items still have WAY better crafting (AION, Fallen Earth, DarkFall) , still find huge environments to run across, (MAPS are bigger than ever!). If you like a timesink where u can grind gnolls in BB for 4 days, good for you... the rest of us have lives, and we try to mix up gaming as a hobby in there, ok some play all day (but the point is we like progress, in 2010 we cant handle stagnation,) OH< and wtf are u talking about the whole point is grinding.. the POINT is to get to max level -- thats basically where the game begins, everything up to there is training for end-game content, slowly introducing your skills to get you used to them. End-game is where most of the fun and memorable moments happen. How do you even comment on something that you admit you never got to>? Thats like a catholic priest giving me advice on relationships.
Accept the new-school and have some perspective when you criticize.. stop throwing out statements based on limited experience and faint memories of when you used to play one of your first MMO's. To be a good article writer you must be able to base your research on something. We all loved those games, but its time to move on, nobody has time to grind for 75 days and not even hit max level.
Grow up, move on, and stop living in the past, the dungeons in today's games are just as scary, the only reason they're not scary in Wow is because we all grinded them way too many times, and they're made that way due to the large audience they reach out to. Maybe stop using WoW and EQ as your point of reference for new vs old would help?
Just a thought..
How can some of you say that a game like WoW has bad crafting because crafters can make nothing usable by players? Seriously, have you played WoW past BC at all? On my priestess a 1/4 of her gear is player made and most are enhanced by player made items and enchants. WoW's crafting may not be great, but at least compared to most newer MMORPG's WoW's actually matters. EvE's works the way it does because that is how the game was designed. So crafting, as in anything a player does in EvE, makes a difference.
As for old games, SWG and DAoC's had the best crafting systems of any I have played. None can come close.
Lol, in new mmorpg's, crafting is nothing about real crafting.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
but aparently everyone has time to download bots and use them to grind them up to max level for them :P
i agree. crafting is one of the main reasons i got into mmorpgs to begin with.
I think there needs to be a point to the meening massivly multiplayer online game. the the word mmo is slaped on pritty much everything these days simply because it allows 100 pluss players to connect to a zone at any time. befor mmos game about i was content as a casual player to play casual games that were available at the time. games that only took an hour or two of my time in a night and i only ever played them once or twice a week. then someone introduced me to Ultima online and then it was mor like five or six hours every night. the reason for this is because of I felt like part of the online community, a huge leviathan that spred across several country's. I had never even spoken to anyone from germany, switzerland or even canader until i started playing ultima online. I had a vast world to explore that brought up more and more suprizes the further I explored. yYu could say that I was! living in a fantacy world, were i spent far too much of my time and should have gone out and done real life things a great deal more. But thats what mmos should be all about. otherwise whats the point. I may aswell go back to the casual style of games that were around before I ever got hooked onto mmos. WoW deserves credit for one thing and one thing only. It has managed to acheive the point of making an mmo feel like a very casual and easy game that appeals the everyone. The problem is it no longer appeal's to the grass roots playerbase that the word mmo was built apon.
Just stop this moronic charade and give your 100/100 score to your long lost love eq1 and your 1/100 score to the easy mode games you despise(wow and its clones). Enjoy driving your model T( when you're not walking uphill both ways in a snowstorm to school that is.)
I think you have to look at it from the perspective of the game he was most familiar with. Crafting in EQ (at least up to Kunark) was pretty useless, the gear you could make was inferior to anything you could loot and other than some minor consumables served little point. That said, I would have to agree that the crafting in SWG was likely the best implementaion of crafting of all MMOs I've played (I didn't play UO). Eve as well is very solid, though I find its crafting a little boring, yet everything is player driven as a result.
I do see the author's point with regards to immersion levels however. All newer mmo's I've played in the past several years are far too linear and guide the players hand and it really does lessen the immersion factor, not to mention the ease of play. While I am not quite as nostalgic of naked corpse runs, or dragging everyone's corpses to the safe corner in Hate after a wipe (and the subsequent experience loss), there was a palpable sense of anxiety in raids that is totally lacking in the current crop of MMOs.
When comparing running raids in EQ (Fear breaks, clearing islands in Sky, Hate to a lesser extent) versus say raids in LOTRO or any other newer mmo there's no comparison. Wiping on the Balrog while leading raids in LOTRO merits little more than a yawn and okay everyone gather up again. The anticipation and anxiety of a Fear break and knowing that one bad pull could end up in a chain reaction that would wipe everyone and possibly end up with the entire raid teams corpses being unrecoverable added an actual element of danger that is simply non-existent in todays MMO landscape. Whether that's a good or bad thing is obviously up to the individual, heck I vacilate on that myself depending on my mood.
I also find that older games did have a bit more of a sense of community, though part of that I think could be attributed to poor game mechanics (anyone who was a rogue in the early days of EQ knows exactly what I'm talking about) as well as the forced interaction with the need to group and the need to physically sell something. The ease of soloing and auction houses in todays games removes any actual need for interaction with other players. Those two things did lend a sense of community that a lot of games just don't have anymore. Heck the broken gameplay of rogues in EQ led directly and indirectly to the creation of the Safehouse, probably the best gaming community I was ever a part of.
Another thing that seems to be missing nowadays is a sense of accomplishment when it comes to questing. Albeit that was broken by the MMO community back in the day too with spoiler sites, quest walkthroughs etc. Still its rare to find an MMO nowadays where you get a quest that doesn't have a marker telling you exactly where to go and what to do. That's not a quest, that's a flowchart. I can't even remember with clarity a single quest I've done in any MMO in the past few years, whereas I can still remember the entire weekend myself and several other rogues spent poring over the original Burning pile of poop (er rapier) quest that was implemented. Figuring out the very vague clues, where to go what to do etc. It was inter-server community news when our little group solved it, and one of us got the item. Of course it was also news in how pathetic the item in question was, but the end item is irrelevant almost a decade later, what I remember is running all over the world with my other rogue buddies figuring it out. That sort of immersion just doesn't exist anymore, although as I indicated above it barely existed then too, as shortly after those class quests were figured out online guides existed detailing exactly what to do to finish them off.
On the anti-nostalgia side though I don't miss things like dragons only spawning on server repop resulting in the time-zone blessed guilds getting first crack at them, massive downtime between fights, camping a single room in Guk etc.
ok iv been thinking about wow and what makes it the game that it is and Ive been thinking to myself, why is it the game what it is and what did they do that was so different to get its playerbase that it has today. I found myself coming to the conclution that Blizzard didnt actualy do very much revolutionary at all. Infact alot of what they put into the game had allready been done in the mmo's that were already available at the time. The difference is WoW pick up most of all the good bits from all of them and left out what the thought were the bad bits. this worked, and I myself found that the game was very familia to me and even though the servers tended to fall over a fair bit due to the masses of players that were as hooked as I was. I was quite happy with what I had purchased. The trouble is that blizzard havent moved a great deal in their game designe over the years that it has been release. I found myself running all to similar content with each subsiquent expantion and I found myself more and more in need of something new. The point that im getting at is that wow isnt a new game in its essence. You will find that the game is pritty much made up of tryed and tested idea's that were in most of the games that about before wow ever existed. So its bizzar that so many developers want to copy the wow model when it simply dosnt offer anything new. The only reason i can see for this repetion is that its an easy way to make a quick buck. its a safe bet that you will get a revanue from your investment.
You know I like his series of Articles, for one it emphasises, the fact that many games lack what the players really want, and it is odd because the players have been expressing what they really want all allong.
In any case, I agree with this article, but not with the results conserning Crafting, while yes, only a couple of games amidst the old ones trully shine in terms of crafting, Ultima Online and SWG (Pre-NGE), both essentially usingthe same Crafting system, version 1 and version 2 respectivelly.
None of the new MMORPG's have surpassed the two affore mentioned anyways. Therefore overall for me Crafting was better in the Older games mainly resting upon the shoulders of these two games.
The rest I agree with todays Social factor and Guilds are basically meaningless. As well as Progression systems. I loved UO's skill based progression system and then SWG's (pre-NGE_ also skill based Systems (again Version 1 and version 2, since SWG was practically based on UO's design within the SW setting).
Not even Darkfall managed to offer anything reminescent of old MMO's..even it proclaims to have gotten inspiration from UO. In practice it is nothing like UO, it is even upseting to even compare the two together.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Very bad article. Does not know what is talking about, specially crafting.
Well hrm, where to begin:
I rather enjoyed the way crafting was dealt with in Shadowbane... that is to say, none. You hired a shopkeep to do the work for you and could upgrade the NPC to make better stuff... Literally taking the grinding out of crafting in that arena.
I did enjoy some of the Ultima Online crafting but I was also 17 at the time and didn't have responsibilities that sucked up my time. I also did not know any better. Nevertheless, I do not view crafting from Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Vanguard, EQ1, etc... as good vs bad but rather fun vs boring.
To me, I would favor an NPC crafting shopkeep who the player could supply with special goods and who could create a multitude of conceptual ideas... But, to me, crafting must be a critical portion of the game to have any real meaning. That is, in order to survive, you need some crafted/shopkeep made materials that are not necessarily time consuming to make but ultimately valuable.
I also feel, time sinks are unacceptable and any game that has any kind of 'perceived' time sink is of poor taste regardless of quality. I believe, that a good designer/programmer can create an environment within an MMO(actual RPG) that will not be perceived as containing a time sink. I believe it is possible, I believe it will be entertaining, I believe it will be fun.
If it doesn't come before I do it, then I'll show you when I am able. I still have a long way to go though..
I agree that crafting in general in the old mmo's were quite bad though there were exceptions.
However, the point I'd like to make and that I believe is important, is that the idea that crafting and gathering is something everyone should do paralell to playing their roles, does not belong to the old, it belongs to the new. And that's where new has gone astray.
Wether it was mechanically exclusive or just practically inaccessible is not important. What's important is that crafting lost it's function and role identity and made the mmo worlds poorer, not richer.
i've never played any really old style games but for those that think that crafting ins't needed in new MMO games you need not look any farther then a game this is coming into offical open beta this october 13th...vindictus... crafting is key to those who want the best armor and don't wanna pay every cent they have in the marketplace to get it...it gives crafting more of a challenge by having to kill specific mobs to get an item you need that will rarely drop this i find makes crafting worthwhile because in the end it pays off...other then that i have never played a game with a crafting system i really enjoyed...aion has a good crafting system and its very rewarding as well depending on the item you craft but it wasn't rewarding enough and no one seemed to do it so if you think new games have sucky crafting systems play vindictus because its worth the effort
The biggest part of this article I disagree with is for the fact that aside from the writer's bias on deciding which side of the argument wins out in each of the categories, it's also the various weights. Why does New MMO's win on crafting by 3, but lose by 4 in the Guilds department? The writer is trying to be the sole decider on each of these weights when a more objective approach would be a straight counting of wins and losses across each of these categories i.e. 1 win for Crafting for New MMO's and 1 win for Guilds for Old MMO's.
Right now, this 3 part series is becoming slightly ridiculous and I'm starting to identify less and less with the article as it merely reflects the writers' opinions which many can disagree with on multiple points. A fairly lackluster 5 parter series in which started as an exciting topic.
In this case I think he should have included a poll for each catagory.
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You know this arguement is never worth fighting. There is a completely new and different generation of players playing MMO's now. Plus MMO's are becoming more mainstream. Trying to convince the new generations that old MMO's were great will just not work.
Most people who read these posts about how good it use to be immediatley go on a rant about how time sinks and difficulty and other bad aspects of classic mmo's suck so much. But people like me who want classic MMO's are not trying to push things like that. When we talk about how great EQ was its not for the actual game system but rather the experience you had.
I guess the only example I could use is football. I could spend weeks perfecting my Madden 2010 game skills and by the end of the month be whooping all my friends butts.
OR I could spend months practicing with a real football team. Become the best at my position and on game day whoop somebody's butt.
Sure the latter took longer and I actually had to go outside, waste time at practices and what not, but the reards are alot better.
Lets also take WoW and EQ, as both games are good examples of their respective timeframes. EQ I would play hours a day. Player the game for two years with a great guild. At the end of the two years I looked at my characeter saw two years of development and as corny as it sounds felt proud that my character developed so far.
With wow I did the same thing but played even longer. Hours a day for 3 years then I looked at my character and thought, oh my, three years playing my druid and theres nothing I have that some schmuk couldnt get in 3 months of grinidng to max level.
This also works in reverese. In EQ I remember playing and seeing other players with such awesome gear and think, there's no way I will be abel to get any of that stuff. But after months of playing I start to see slwoly but surely its doable but will be challenging. In games like WoW, I see a decked out class I just think, meh I could roll one and have the same gear in like 3 months.
Bottom line: Yes, newer MMO's have made the game more accessable and more fun for the mass market and casual players. But in turn, MMO's lost their "epic" feel.
I know many disagree with me and the OP but thats just my opinion.
I totally disagree about the Crafting as well.
The fact is that in old MMOs, crafting took a huge time investment but also ended up providing good products (unless that MMO was broken on that part. DAoC was not and you say UO neither was).
The consequence was that not every player would be a crafter. It was a matter of choice and it was rewarding.
Nowadays, crafting has been simplified (which can be seen as a progress), but in fact over-simplified and doesn't take any near the same time investment.
The consequence is that ANY player can be a crafter, or even MUST be a crafter. It is almost as craft is a base part of you character, like race or class (I'm exagerating, just a bit).
The problem is that crafting products must then be (and are) of mediocre usefulness - Otherwise any crafter (thus any player) would have access to top products easily.
As a craft lover, I can tell you I hardly can name a modern MMO with a satisfaying crafting system (I have been told SWG was, but I did not have the chance to try it).
At least WoW, LotRO, WAR certainly aren't, and I suspect Aion neither is.
I would name Ryzom maybe, especially because it has the best resource gathering system I have seen so far.
You hit the nail on its head. These new MMOs (I left the RPG out for a reason) are nothing more than glorified single player action games than they are true MMORPGs.
It's all about the dollar. Major publishers want to be confident in the money they are spending. The MMO market is a highly violatile and compettive one....and these big publishers want some assurances on their investment.
In order for developers to assure and instill confidence in their product, they must have complete control over the content and how its consumed. This allows the developers to determine where players are at any given point in their game progression....which helps establish a time line on when expansions need to be released, in addition to allowing developers to be proactive in their development.
How do you establish control of the content?
You make the game revolve solely around gear......and then you control how the gear is distributed. If crafters were able to create the same items that you can get from a 25 man raid dungeon, then why would you raid for it? If there is an alternative way to get gear in the game, then the developers ceed some of that content control to the players and undermine the whole reason they go the linear progression route in the first place.
This is why games that use crafting more than a side show are typically associated with sand box type environments.....and also the reason you don't see it in all the new linear theme park MMOs.
If the model of choice from a MMO development standpoint is around content control based on a gear progression system......don't expect to see things like crafters, player driven economy, or other alternative non-combat progression paths to get a lot of attention in future MMOs.