Autoattack is in no way responsible for that 4:23 fight looking boring.
Open world gameplay is wholly responsible. The boss was probably balanced for ~2 players (if that) and was being engaged by 6+ players. No matter how amazing your combat system is, there isn't any challenge if the game lets players zerg enemies in an open world.
Obviously we can't make a call either way on whether PVE will be challenging or interesting enough at this point...at least not based on that particular video.
NOTE!!!!!
GW2 FEATURE:
Events SCALE!!!!!
so thats not a reason the gameplay should be so dull. It would scale in number if more players came. So 2 players and 6 players should still be great fights.
Autoattack is in no way responsible for that 4:23 fight looking boring.
Open world gameplay is wholly responsible. The boss was probably balanced for ~2 players (if that) and was being engaged by 6+ players. No matter how amazing your combat system is, there isn't any challenge if the game lets players zerg enemies in an open world.
Obviously we can't make a call either way on whether PVE will be challenging or interesting enough at this point...at least not based on that particular video.
NOTE!!!!!
GW2 FEATURE:
Events SCALE!!!!!
so thats not a reason the gameplay should be so dull. It would scale in number if more players came. So 2 players and 6 players should still be great fights.
But its not!!!
Exactly out of my mouth, Axehilt you would be right but the more players come into the event the more difficult the event becomes.
The demo isn't a good example to measure difficulty or challenge, the ANet people already mentioned how they made the gameplay overall easier just for the demos. They stated that the Shatterer dragon attack for example is nowhere near as accessible in the game as in the demo - the Shatterer event is at the end on a long chain of events - and it is far from being as easy as it is now in the demo.
Someone (not ANet dev) commented about such boss fights as with the dragon, 'consider it scalable raid-type encounter, but then in open area'.
Besides in the video, that's a L1-L3 character, so it still has only a few skills in those starter areas.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Still, drawing conclusions based on 1 fight is risky -- and still has nothing to do with the auto-Skill option :P
I mean I think it's likely the majority of gameplay will be easy, don't get me wrong. Any sane developer needs to take care of its majority audience first. But any good developer needs to also take care of its skilled minority -- because if the gameplay is fun, much of the unskilled masses are going to become skilled. I just think that until we hear details on how the game offers a variety of challenges that drawing conclusions is silly.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
May I add that, auto attack in GW also goes by the term default attack. In GW2, you can no longer stand next to an enemy and strike your sword without using an attack skill and your wand no longer shoots magical orbs that damage an enemy without using a spell skill, which is how it was in GW1.
Well, this guy just cleared up the mess. I wanted to ask something like that to clarify how the auto attack feature works. To understand how auto attack works in an MMO in most cases it's enough to ask how melee works. Taking the prime example, WoW, where your melee character does an additional attack every few seconds in addition to your abilities...well, I guess that's not how it works in GW2. If you press nothing, then you do nothing.
EDIT: But then again...I'm wondering...if you toggle the "basic" skill of a melee class in GW2 to "auto-skill", won't that be the same as auto attack?
It will be like that.
but the main thing that bothers me about this, is how easy the Event bosses can be taken down by the auto attack alone. a single skill.
Under unusual circumstances yes it may look the same but at the same time also no in that skills eats up mana. When I say unusual, I mean you're using only basic attack skill for the entire duration of a fight when you could be using other powerful skills (unless your a low level and you choose not to switch roles/weapons, your choice is limited). What's not clear is, and this could be a difference too, when you set a skill on auto and you use a different skill afterwards, will you return using the previous skill that was set on auto because if it doesn't, you'll have to right-click to re-set the skill to auto again. In GW1, when you singleclick or double click an enemy, you automatically attack it with whatever weapon/wand you have wielded. Then when you activate a skill say Final Thrust, after damaging the enemy with Final Thrust, you automatically returned attacking the enemy without having to click on anything.
The basic skill is something you would use, assuming you had enough mana, between recharge times of other more useful/powerful skills. As far as Event bosses getting killed by only basic skills, no idea, but it would be dumb if you could just do that though, that flaw would be so obvious. Perhaps if you go back to a lower level boss, I don't know.
Also I want to point out that the water 'basic' skills does little damage but also does a little heal on any allies where the damage splashes. If you switched attunement to fire (you can do that with one click while in combat too I believe), your left hand-side of the skill bar changes to fire spells. Your 'basic' fire skill does a little more damage than the water 'basic skill but it does not heal. White numbers are damages, green numbers are heals. (just my own observation from several demos). Also if you watch the other professions as noted by other players too, the 'basic' skill is on the 1st slot.
If you want to look further into the skill mechanics and some example of skills seen in GW2, there are compilations there. And this is by no means complete, nor it is official, just players confirming other players.
EDIT: The elementalist player in the video had just leveled up after defeating the elementalist boss in the tutorial area. Chances are the ele is only a level 2 which is the reason why the others skill slots are not yet unlocked.
Playing now: Cities: Skyline / Ori and the Blind Forest / Banished
Considering you can, and should, be dodging during combat, looks quite immersive.
Consideringyou can move while casting, looks quite actiony.
Considering when you change weapons, or spell schools, you get a whole new set of skills, looks quite varied.
I think you are concerned over nothing.
Seeing that it's a lockon system with a mouse over interface.......
yea you got nothing to be concerned about
It is not a lock-on system in a traditional sense.
First and foremost, you can activate any skill at anytime without having a target.
Second, Area of Effect/Damage skills uses a ground targeting system. It doesn't use lock-on. You get a giant green cross-hair-like layer to move around anywhere on the ground, and over objects.
Third, there are Area of Effect/Dagamage skills that doesn't use a ground targeting system or a lock-on such as those from the warrior's stomp skill and cyclone axe. You just have to be move and position yourself correctly. On a side note, there is no auto-follow in GW2, atleast not for enemies. Point and click movement has been removed.
Some skills, after you return back to normal, makes your character continue its movement, so you don't remain static (example Tornado, cyclone axe). And most skills can be used while moving.
Fourth, Directional skills require you to select the direction in which you fire or shoot from your point of origin. The shape of how it will fire off will be illustrated as a green cone (not a perfect solid-filled cone but it come in different sizes to match the size of the actual skill). It doesn't use lock-on.
Fifth, Single target skills. If you didn't have an enemy selected, will still fire off but it will try to hit a nearby enemy, if it is appropriate. Even if you have something targeted, it is not a gurantee you will hit it. You can fire off a skill even if you are out of range of a target selected, what will happen is it will fly off and miss your mark. They can also dodgeroll to evade an attack or projectile by double tapping into the direction of movement all profession can use and takes up mana. And finally, using an extreme example, if you're facing forward and you cast say fireball on a selected target that's moving from your left screen towards the right screen, there is a possibility that the fireball will stray depending on how far you are from it even if you're in range. Also if it strays slightly off course from its intended target, it can hit another enemy nearby instead that you did not intend to target.
Basically, positioning and movement are even more important in GW2 than in GW1.
Playing now: Cities: Skyline / Ori and the Blind Forest / Banished
MMO's without Auto Attack feel dull because you are waiting on the next action, which could be seconds, string this together and its makes for tedious combat (See Vindicus).
As long as there's no Ursan in, combat will be fun don't worry.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Sorry but I see the combat system as clunky & detatched in a weird sort of way. Mousing over an aoe attack in a fast paced game looks out of place same goes for the mouse pointer in the center of the screen. Maybe I was just expecting something more than what they showed.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
MMO's without Auto Attack feel dull because you are waiting on the next action, which could be seconds, string this together and its makes for tedious combat (See Vindicus).
Says the person who obviously never played. Vindictus uses a stamina bar. Different skills (I use a gamepad) use up stamina at different rates, but if you stop attacking (and say move about to avoid damage) it replenishes in seconds. I wish more MMOs had the conbat intensity of Vindictus. The boss fights are freakin epic.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Autoattack is in no way responsible for that 4:23 fight looking boring.
Open world gameplay is wholly responsible. The boss was probably balanced for ~2 players (if that) and was being engaged by 6+ players. No matter how amazing your combat system is, there isn't any challenge if the game lets players zerg enemies in an open world.
Obviously we can't make a call either way on whether PVE will be challenging or interesting enough at this point...at least not based on that particular video.
NOTE!!!!!
GW2 FEATURE:
Events SCALE!!!!!
so thats not a reason the gameplay should be so dull. It would scale in number if more players came. So 2 players and 6 players should still be great fights.
The devs said that the Shatterer fight was made much easier for the demo (so that everyone would get a chance to defeat it). It will be more challenging when it goes live.
They have added other elements such as dodge rolling to combat. I'm not sure how that would seem more dull to you, but to each their own I guess.
but the main thing that bothers me about this, is how easy the Event bosses can be taken down by the auto attack alone. a single skill.
What are you basing your opinion off of?
How is auto attack a skill?
Why would you not use other abilities?
Is pressing a button really so difficult that you think turning the auto attack feature on will make a difference? What weird MMOs have you been playing that makes pressing the number 7 so hard?
I feel like I am missing something from your arguement, because it makes no sense.
The whole strategy of Guildwars is only being able to bring a certain amount of skills/spells out of hundreds to chose from. I really am not worried about auto-attack and the PVE being too easy. I really am not going to be doing any of the PVE anyways because it is a kiddies game for the most part and the PVE will be too easy for me to enjoy most likely and if its hard it will probably just be annoying having to do the same thing over and over . .. I wont play these kinds of games for PVE, only the PVP.
I dont like PVE for the most part in any game because I find it too easy and if its hard there has to be a certain way to beat it usually and your own method will not work . .. not to mention that having no death penalty is very very dull to me.
It did look like the person was spamming one button to win and that looked retarded . ... but I am not expecting good PVE at all so I do not care because the way they go about it is just not my taste.
Guildwars 1 PVE was something that I could only handle if the friends that I am playing with are fun to be around no matter what we are doing . .. in other words . .. I don't care and won't be playing it for PVE anyways and don't like the first GW PVE but do it anyways if my friends want to.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
The only reason it appeared that the character playing was only using one spell over and over again was because he/she basically was. It was a level one character, and he only had two spells unlocked.
The only reason it appeared that the character playing was only using one spell over and over again was because he/she basically was. It was a level one character, and he only had two spells unlocked.
This.
OP of you want to bash a feature you should watch your example before commenting on it.
The combat system is actually one of the things that make Guild Wars 2 look so much cooler in my opinion.
I like that you have to press a key to simply swing at a monster, makes it feel a bit like a hack n' slash game, wich is awesome. However it also lets you set the skill to auto-attack, wich caters to players who preffer the more traditional click to attack method.
The rolling-out-of-attacks also looks awesome, and the fact that it consumes energy makes it feel like you are doing something important in combat, not just moving around because you like pressing the WASD keys.
The limit to skills, and the trait system, make for a lot of customization. Instead of just a talent system (wich is usually something you dont get to choose, you go read it up on a fansite), and all the skills you want on your bar, we can choose wich weapon(s) we will use, as it affects half our skills, choose our healing, elite and support skills out of a larger pool of skills, and explore the world finding different traits, wich drasticaly affect your playstyle. The whole system has a card-deck feel, where you carefully choose your cards to formulate a strategy that will synergize with the rest of the group.
Another really awesome part of the game, is that i think the way people will create synergy with the rest of the group, along with the way the healing/support/tanking/damage system will work; it'll be a bit like DotA, which is an awesome mod/game for WC3, which you should deffinitely try.
Overall, the combat system looks like it will feel really cool, and i can't wait to try it for myself.
SteamID: Sertii
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Comments
NOTE!!!!!
GW2 FEATURE:
Events SCALE!!!!!
so thats not a reason the gameplay should be so dull. It would scale in number if more players came. So 2 players and 6 players should still be great fights.
But its not!!!
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Exactly out of my mouth, Axehilt you would be right but the more players come into the event the more difficult the event becomes.
The demo isn't a good example to measure difficulty or challenge, the ANet people already mentioned how they made the gameplay overall easier just for the demos. They stated that the Shatterer dragon attack for example is nowhere near as accessible in the game as in the demo - the Shatterer event is at the end on a long chain of events - and it is far from being as easy as it is now in the demo.
Someone (not ANet dev) commented about such boss fights as with the dragon, 'consider it scalable raid-type encounter, but then in open area'.
Besides in the video, that's a L1-L3 character, so it still has only a few skills in those starter areas.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ah I see. Wasn't aware of that.
Still, drawing conclusions based on 1 fight is risky -- and still has nothing to do with the auto-Skill option :P
I mean I think it's likely the majority of gameplay will be easy, don't get me wrong. Any sane developer needs to take care of its majority audience first. But any good developer needs to also take care of its skilled minority -- because if the gameplay is fun, much of the unskilled masses are going to become skilled. I just think that until we hear details on how the game offers a variety of challenges that drawing conclusions is silly.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Under unusual circumstances yes it may look the same but at the same time also no in that skills eats up mana. When I say unusual, I mean you're using only basic attack skill for the entire duration of a fight when you could be using other powerful skills (unless your a low level and you choose not to switch roles/weapons, your choice is limited). What's not clear is, and this could be a difference too, when you set a skill on auto and you use a different skill afterwards, will you return using the previous skill that was set on auto because if it doesn't, you'll have to right-click to re-set the skill to auto again. In GW1, when you singleclick or double click an enemy, you automatically attack it with whatever weapon/wand you have wielded. Then when you activate a skill say Final Thrust, after damaging the enemy with Final Thrust, you automatically returned attacking the enemy without having to click on anything.
The basic skill is something you would use, assuming you had enough mana, between recharge times of other more useful/powerful skills. As far as Event bosses getting killed by only basic skills, no idea, but it would be dumb if you could just do that though, that flaw would be so obvious. Perhaps if you go back to a lower level boss, I don't know.
Also I want to point out that the water 'basic' skills does little damage but also does a little heal on any allies where the damage splashes. If you switched attunement to fire (you can do that with one click while in combat too I believe), your left hand-side of the skill bar changes to fire spells. Your 'basic' fire skill does a little more damage than the water 'basic skill but it does not heal. White numbers are damages, green numbers are heals. (just my own observation from several demos). Also if you watch the other professions as noted by other players too, the 'basic' skill is on the 1st slot.
If you want to look further into the skill mechanics and some example of skills seen in GW2, there are compilations there. And this is by no means complete, nor it is official, just players confirming other players.
EDIT: The elementalist player in the video had just leveled up after defeating the elementalist boss in the tutorial area. Chances are the ele is only a level 2 which is the reason why the others skill slots are not yet unlocked.
Playing now: Cities: Skyline / Ori and the Blind Forest / Banished
It is not a lock-on system in a traditional sense.
First and foremost, you can activate any skill at anytime without having a target.
Second, Area of Effect/Damage skills uses a ground targeting system. It doesn't use lock-on. You get a giant green cross-hair-like layer to move around anywhere on the ground, and over objects.
Third, there are Area of Effect/Dagamage skills that doesn't use a ground targeting system or a lock-on such as those from the warrior's stomp skill and cyclone axe. You just have to be move and position yourself correctly. On a side note, there is no auto-follow in GW2, atleast not for enemies. Point and click movement has been removed.
Some skills, after you return back to normal, makes your character continue its movement, so you don't remain static (example Tornado, cyclone axe). And most skills can be used while moving.
Fourth, Directional skills require you to select the direction in which you fire or shoot from your point of origin. The shape of how it will fire off will be illustrated as a green cone (not a perfect solid-filled cone but it come in different sizes to match the size of the actual skill). It doesn't use lock-on.
Fifth, Single target skills. If you didn't have an enemy selected, will still fire off but it will try to hit a nearby enemy, if it is appropriate. Even if you have something targeted, it is not a gurantee you will hit it. You can fire off a skill even if you are out of range of a target selected, what will happen is it will fly off and miss your mark. They can also dodgeroll to evade an attack or projectile by double tapping into the direction of movement all profession can use and takes up mana. And finally, using an extreme example, if you're facing forward and you cast say fireball on a selected target that's moving from your left screen towards the right screen, there is a possibility that the fireball will stray depending on how far you are from it even if you're in range. Also if it strays slightly off course from its intended target, it can hit another enemy nearby instead that you did not intend to target.
Basically, positioning and movement are even more important in GW2 than in GW1.
Playing now: Cities: Skyline / Ori and the Blind Forest / Banished
MMO's without Auto Attack feel dull because you are waiting on the next action, which could be seconds, string this together and its makes for tedious combat (See Vindicus).
As long as there's no Ursan in, combat will be fun don't worry.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Dookz
Sorry but I see the combat system as clunky & detatched in a weird sort of way. Mousing over an aoe attack in a fast paced game looks out of place same goes for the mouse pointer in the center of the screen. Maybe I was just expecting something more than what they showed.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Says the person who obviously never played. Vindictus uses a stamina bar. Different skills (I use a gamepad) use up stamina at different rates, but if you stop attacking (and say move about to avoid damage) it replenishes in seconds. I wish more MMOs had the conbat intensity of Vindictus. The boss fights are freakin epic.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
According to what? Your single video link?
Oh..btw....This just in:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/4571/Guild-Wars-2-Playing-Solo-Together.html
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
The devs said that the Shatterer fight was made much easier for the demo (so that everyone would get a chance to defeat it). It will be more challenging when it goes live.
They have added other elements such as dodge rolling to combat. I'm not sure how that would seem more dull to you, but to each their own I guess.
What are you basing your opinion off of?
How is auto attack a skill?
Why would you not use other abilities?
Is pressing a button really so difficult that you think turning the auto attack feature on will make a difference? What weird MMOs have you been playing that makes pressing the number 7 so hard?
I feel like I am missing something from your arguement, because it makes no sense.
The whole strategy of Guildwars is only being able to bring a certain amount of skills/spells out of hundreds to chose from. I really am not worried about auto-attack and the PVE being too easy. I really am not going to be doing any of the PVE anyways because it is a kiddies game for the most part and the PVE will be too easy for me to enjoy most likely and if its hard it will probably just be annoying having to do the same thing over and over . .. I wont play these kinds of games for PVE, only the PVP.
I dont like PVE for the most part in any game because I find it too easy and if its hard there has to be a certain way to beat it usually and your own method will not work . .. not to mention that having no death penalty is very very dull to me.
It did look like the person was spamming one button to win and that looked retarded . ... but I am not expecting good PVE at all so I do not care because the way they go about it is just not my taste.
Guildwars 1 PVE was something that I could only handle if the friends that I am playing with are fun to be around no matter what we are doing . .. in other words . .. I don't care and won't be playing it for PVE anyways and don't like the first GW PVE but do it anyways if my friends want to.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
The only reason it appeared that the character playing was only using one spell over and over again was because he/she basically was. It was a level one character, and he only had two spells unlocked.
This.
OP of you want to bash a feature you should watch your example before commenting on it.
The combat system is actually one of the things that make Guild Wars 2 look so much cooler in my opinion.
I like that you have to press a key to simply swing at a monster, makes it feel a bit like a hack n' slash game, wich is awesome. However it also lets you set the skill to auto-attack, wich caters to players who preffer the more traditional click to attack method.
The rolling-out-of-attacks also looks awesome, and the fact that it consumes energy makes it feel like you are doing something important in combat, not just moving around because you like pressing the WASD keys.
The limit to skills, and the trait system, make for a lot of customization. Instead of just a talent system (wich is usually something you dont get to choose, you go read it up on a fansite), and all the skills you want on your bar, we can choose wich weapon(s) we will use, as it affects half our skills, choose our healing, elite and support skills out of a larger pool of skills, and explore the world finding different traits, wich drasticaly affect your playstyle. The whole system has a card-deck feel, where you carefully choose your cards to formulate a strategy that will synergize with the rest of the group.
Another really awesome part of the game, is that i think the way people will create synergy with the rest of the group, along with the way the healing/support/tanking/damage system will work; it'll be a bit like DotA, which is an awesome mod/game for WC3, which you should deffinitely try.
Overall, the combat system looks like it will feel really cool, and i can't wait to try it for myself.
SteamID: Sertii
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