SWG sucked, get over it. The fact that people who think themselves special and call themselves "vets" hate this game is actually a good thing. If they liked it, then chances are it would suck as well.
They refer to themselves as vets because playing that horrible steaming pile of a game was akin to fighting in nam and it left them scarred and psychologically broken.
Says the guy who apparently never understood the original swg. I have nothing but fond memories of the pre cu and even cu swg. Really though thanks for trying, well thought out post, really....
There doesn't need to be a lot of thought put into just how bad a game SWG was and still is.
Your opinion and nothing more. The game isn't the same game now so, I won't argue that point. The game that was, for a great many, was exactly the type of game that they were looking for and though it never fully was fleshed out it was and will likely continue to be the mmo I have the best memories from.
EQ1 wwas a great game. Number 1 in NA subs back then, and I played from 01 till 06.
SOE's mistake was letting Koster make the game. Sandboxes dont pull big audiences, and TOR is going to smash SWG sub numbers.
As far as companions....it would be nice to have unique sidekicks for everyone. Hopefully you have the ability to at least gear them up as you wish. Seeing as I enjoy immersion to a degree, and not simulation, it wont bother me. If you ever raided with 2 or more necros in EQ, you know what I mean.
eh?
#1: koster did not work on EQ1 - he worked as chief creative officer in EQ2.
#2: even if koster did work on that game, you claim it was a mistake and yet you played a game for 5 years and describe it as a "great game"?
#3: name me a themepark game aside from WoW with more paying subscriptions than EVE Online.
back to your cave moaky.
Christ. Are you purposely trying to lure out flamewars, Troneas?
Because I have not seen one post of you that you weren't in some way trash talking SW:TOR or how 'oh so good' SWG was.
You think SW:TOR sucks and will fail and have no interest at all in how the game develops, you apparently pine away about how great SWG was. Why are you hanging around here for on the forum of a game you have no interest or hope for anyway, and not on the SWG forum??
It should be clear from reading Moaky's post and understanding the context that he was talking about Koster and SWG, as in:
Speaking of caves, there is one on these forums too, it's called SWG Veteran Refuge. I think you'll like it there.
ok i correct a poster's nonesense and I am attracting flamewars.
where did i post that SWTOR sucks and fails? show me where. i criticise some aspects of the game, yes. i don't like their incoherences to the timeline, or shameless relation to the PT in a game that supposedly takes place a gazillion years before.. so?
when it suits them, they preach about how 3000 BBY gives them ALL this leeway to create and invent stuff. but then, they just imitate the movies in an almost repulsive way. all they need is to name the wookiee chewbaka or something.
does that make me a omG swtor hater? because i was dissapointed the only available races are different coloured humans? or that space is in a tunnel?
or does it make you a fanboy for putting words in my mouth and yelling: "troll!, hater!, every time someone posts a criticism or corrects someone else?
"EQ1 wwas a great game. Number 1 in NA subs back then, and I played from 01 till 06.
SOE's mistake was letting Koster make the game. Sandboxes dont pull big audiences, and TOR is going to smash SWG sub numbers."
well to me it sounds that "the game" is EQ1. That is what he is talking about in his post.
You corrected my non-sense?
The only non-sense was your lack of reading comprehension. You compounded that with a feeble insult besides.
Brad made EQ1....Koster made SWG. One game is still releasing expansions, and the other failed expectations so badly that 2 revamps were attempted.
It isnt bad enough that you got called on your flaming attempt, but then plead ignorance to something that is self-evident. The two AAA MMOs entirely created by SOE(verant was an completely owned company) have done well, yet SWG launched as a buggy piece of chit. Sure EQ1 & EQ2 had things that werent right as well....but things were correctable. Koster made a database nightmare, and it didnt even offer a 3rd dimension(something both EQ and EQ2 have).
When I see 3 games from the same company, and 2 of them are pretty stable, then it leaves me to wonder what is the difference.
SWG had a huge budget which was supplemented by a user paid beta. It's high mark for subscriptions was the 300k range(EQ1 was holding down 450k back then, and EQ2 sat above 300k for a while as well), and this is despite the fact it had the drawing power of one of the largest IPs around.
So again I point to Koster. Had SWG concentrated on a smaller number of classes, more concern with giving folks PVE content areas, and stayed away from things such as recursive macroing/alpha classes/gaming area is reserved for housing & harvesters, then I would be willing to bet SWG would of done a lot better.
Sandbox is a niche mechanic, yet Raph went overboard with it.
There wasnt a stable game engine, balancing of class braches was shot to hell, and PVE was totally lacking....yet by god he had standing in lines, trades, and harvesting going good at launch.
Total lack of focus on what a game needs to concentrate on.
It doesnt matter....Raph bombed his way out of the MMO arena, and tucked his tail to run over to Facebook apps. When the heralded "King of Sandboxes" throws in the towel, you would think his fans could take the hint. SOme folks enjoy his ideas, others see him as not understanding what "fun" entails.
The day TOR launches, it will be selling boxes like wildfire, and those wishing for SWG2 will be stuttering " But...but...but...the PRECioUs"
I think some 500 of my posts have been used trying to sum up what the problems abound with SWG were but low and behold you have done it with better than I ever could with this post.
And I'm going to start making it a point to always ask anytime I even see the words SWG or sandbox in a post, exactly why can't a sandbox like SWG was have good pve content?
How would having compelling heroic content to play through have changed that game for the worse? One thing I can say is it would not be the smoldering wreck that it is now.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The only non-sense was your lack of reading comprehension. You compounded that with a feeble insult besides.
Brad made EQ1....Koster made SWG. One game is still releasing expansions, and the other failed expectations so badly that 2 revamps were attempted.
It isnt bad enough that you got called on your flaming attempt, but then plead ignorance to something that is self-evident. The two AAA MMOs entirely created by SOE(verant was an completely owned company) have done well, yet SWG launched as a buggy piece of chit. Sure EQ1 & EQ2 had things that werent right as well....but things were correctable. Koster made a database nightmare, and it didnt even offer a 3rd dimension(something both EQ and EQ2 have).
When I see 3 games from the same company, and 2 of them are pretty stable, then it leaves me to wonder what is the difference.
SWG had a huge budget which was supplemented by a user paid beta. It's high mark for subscriptions was the 300k range(EQ1 was holding down 450k back then, and EQ2 sat above 300k for a while as well), and this is despite the fact it had the drawing power of one of the largest IPs around.
So again I point to Koster. Had SWG concentrated on a smaller number of classes, more concern with giving folks PVE content areas, and stayed away from things such as recursive macroing/alpha classes/gaming area is reserved for housing & harvesters, then I would be willing to bet SWG would of done a lot better.
Sandbox is a niche mechanic, yet Raph went overboard with it.
There wasnt a stable game engine, balancing of class braches was shot to hell, and PVE was totally lacking....yet by god he had standing in lines, trades, and harvesting going good at launch.
Total lack of focus on what a game needs to concentrate on.
It doesnt matter....Raph bombed his way out of the MMO arena, and tucked his tail to run over to Facebook apps. When the heralded "King of Sandboxes" throws in the towel, you would think his fans could take the hint. SOme folks enjoy his ideas, others see him as not understanding what "fun" entails.
The day TOR launches, it will be selling boxes like wildfire, and those wishing for SWG2 will be stuttering " But...but...but...the PRECioUs"
Wow...hate Raph much? Calm down Moaky.
The fact is, SWG was released well before it should have been. SoE got greedy and released an unfinished, buggy, sloppy game. The only thing the failure of SWG proves is SoE's ability to **edit** up Star Wars. Smed can stick to elfs and magicians in EQ, EQ 2, EQ 2X and EQ 2XL.
I'm one of those who is WISHING for SWG2. I would DIE for a decent Star Wars game with depth, freedom, exploration, Stormtroopers, X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Death Stars, ISD's, etc etc etc...That is my EFFING DREAM GAME!!!
But...my desire for a perfect Star Wars MMO surely doesn't mean I think SW:ToR will suck. In fact, I've been looking forward to it for years now. I'm anxious as hell for SW:ToR to be released - I'll preorder it, buy multiple copies of it and have multiple accounts...but no matter how good SW:ToR is, it won't be the timeline "I" want it to be.
So please, stop making assumptions that simply aren't true. I won't be "stuttering" and SWGs failure is a reflection on SoE's mismanagement and choices, not Sandboxes.
I see YET ANOTHER thread from a whiney SWG vet and it makes ME want to cry... just out right cry.
Seriously, when are you people going to get over it and move on with your lives!?
SWG was probably the only sandbox Star Wars MMO you are going to get. If you can't stand playing it now, that's your problem. SWTOR is obviously not going to be the game for you.
I know I've already used this... but:
Will you stop only when you have driven away every single one who is not entirely of your opinion from this forum? Did you learn nothing from the past days?
Some loved some parts of SWG. Is that a crime?
You know, calling people whiner and posting funny Luke Skywalker pics every time just makes you look like a super-nerd, who eseentially has nothing to reply.
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
THIS! This is exactly what a game needs to be. No game will EVER be exactly what everyone is looking for, but a hybrid of the 2 best elements of MMOs (Sandboxes and themeparks) is the most obvious answer. Toss in a post ROTJ Star Wars theme and it's the last game I'll ever buy.
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
I have yet to see a better game than EQ1.....problem being it was so unforgiving, and grindy.
You had pretty deep trades....yet they werent the end-all be-all.
Foraging/fishing for those into that stuff.
Huge amount of factions to work on.
Huge gameworld.
World PVP....if you played on those servers. It wasnt forced(PVP were roughly 8% of total server numbers.)
No housing. (EQ2 added instanced housing, which didnt clutter up the landscape)
Multiple unique starting areas. The races were done right IMO.
There was lore to the areas.
YOu could RP if you wanted to. They even had a server that was designated for it.
And most of all there was tons of PVE content to keep folks busy.
IMO all games should start with a working engine/fleshed out combat classes , work on huge amounts of PVE content/game world, and THEN worry about what they can add in like PVP/trades/etc.
The second you start your game around PVP & trades, you are missing the boat. You can appeal to some folks, but those interested in PVE are going to be more apt to look for games that concentrate on that area of gameplay.
At least that is the way I see things. /shrug
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
THIS! This is exactly what a game needs to be. No game will EVER be exactly what everyone is looking for, but a hybrid of the 2 best elements of MMOs (Sandboxes and themeparks) is the most obvious answer. Toss in a post ROTJ Star Wars theme and it's the last game I'll ever buy.
I agree too. Why have only one when a huge AAA game could have parts of both?
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
THIS! This is exactly what a game needs to be. No game will EVER be exactly what everyone is looking for, but a hybrid of the 2 best elements of MMOs (Sandboxes and themeparks) is the most obvious answer. Toss in a post ROTJ Star Wars theme and it's the last game I'll ever buy.
I agree too. Why have only one when a huge AAA game could have parts of both?
And don't stop there...toss in some well done mini-games, the ability to RP, flight simulator, civilization builder, racing, player influenced economy...with $150 million being dumped into SW:ToR, there isn't any excuse for all of these areas not being covered tbh.
I see YET ANOTHER thread from a whiney SWG vet and it makes ME want to cry... just out right cry.
Seriously, when are you people going to get over it and move on with your lives!?
SWG was probably the only sandbox Star Wars MMO you are going to get. If you can't stand playing it now, that's your problem. SWTOR is obviously not going to be the game for you.
I know I've already used this... but:
Will you stop only when you have driven away every single one who is not entirely of your opinion from this forum? Did you learn nothing from the past days?
Some loved some parts of SWG. Is that a crime?
You know, calling people whiner and posting funny Luke Skywalker pics every time just makes you look like a super-nerd, who eseentially has nothing to reply.
I am a super-nerd, so I don't take offense at that. However, I am not as pathetic as some who hang around these forums and post the same regurgitated negative comments about TOR simply because it is not following the SWG model. I let it go for a long time, but after a while I started getting really really tired of it.
I can't tell you how many times SWG vets have generalized fans of TOR as 12 year-olds or retards. They act as though we are children who enjoy nothing but instant gratification simply because we don't want this game to be like SWG.
I didn't go to the SWG vet forum and post about how all of them are losers, yet that is essentially what they have done repeatedly on this forum. If the SWG vets would stop coming here with their regurgitated arguments and negative jabs/insults at everyone who is in support of this game, I wouldn't reply with such angst.
And to answer your question: YES. I will absolutely stop making fun of SWG whiners when they stop posting the same tired BS on this forum. However, if they post valid criticisms of the game that ARE NOT based upon the fact that it is not going to be a sandbox, then I have no problem engaging in a logical debate.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I try not to get overly attached to one game. It cramps my style. I try not to make constant comparisons of one game to another. It defeats the purpose of experiencing something anew. I'll admit. I was loving SWG when it first came out, but I wasn't so blindly loyal to the game that I couldn't see the terrible flaws that plagued it. And I wasn't so committed to it that I couldn't bear to part from it.
Luckily my head was level and my emotions were in check to keep me from experiencing the pile of chet they called NGE. Actually my friends and I laughed at the whole debacle as it unfolded between the cult like fanbois and the devs. Refunds, insults and curses were flying between the two groups like the Hatfields and the McCoys. All brought to you by article after article. Neither said backed down and ultimately no one won. And now we have the McCoys itchin for a new fight and they don't care if the other side ain't the Hatfields.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
That all bounty hunters are evil and dressed like jangoo fett, all smugglers get standard issue wookies and correlian corvettes?
that troopers can only be good and dress like clones, while the sith troopers from the kotor games seem to have vanished.
why we all fight over hoth because it's a major strategic point and not just a place where a desperate semi crushed rebellion hides?
Nah, I don't cry. If anything this game (and then the other SW games released by SOE recently) just cement the point that I'm am done with the SW IP in pretty much any fashion. I don't support the "get over it" preaching that you see from some. I more back the "move on" approach. In that one you realize you'll never get back what you lost but you also know that you aren't obligated to do business with that company ever again.
Businesses make choices. So do customers.
No harm no foul. I can spend my money elsewhere and all is well in the gaming world.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
SWG sucked, get over it. The fact that people who think themselves special and call themselves "vets" hate this game is actually a good thing. If they liked it, then chances are it would suck as well.
They refer to themselves as vets because playing that horrible steaming pile of a game was akin to fighting in nam and it left them scarred and psychologically broken.
Says the guy who apparently never understood the original swg. I have nothing but fond memories of the pre cu and even cu swg. Really though thanks for trying, well thought out post, really....
I'm not getting on your case, but you said "nothing but fond memories". Is that really true, or do you also remember some of the huge gaping holes, and issues that the game had? I mean, I loved the game, but even I had to admit it did have flaws. For me, the good stuff outweighed the bad by a long shot, which is why I have fond memories.
I'm just asking to kind of make the point to other folks, that SWG vents can admit SWG wasnt perfect, but we enjoyed it for what it was, warts and all.
O it was FAAAARRR from perfect but it was also the best virtual world I have ever been a part of. I'm not saying that the new star wars mmo will be bad in fact I'm a fan of kotor and bioware is one of my favorite developers but the reality; it does sadden me to know that there will likely never be another sandbox like SWG. The combination of the stars wars IP and the sandbox gameplay was basically my idea of the perfect setting for a mmo world and as we all know there hasn't been anything like it since.
This. ^^
If SOE had spent the money it ploughed into the CU and the NGE into bug-fixing and balancing, I believe the game would have the same orgnic growth pattern as Eve.
But just because SWG was a good game - and could have been better - doesn't mean that TOR will be a failure. This game will rise - or fall - on its own merits.
That all bounty hunters are evil and dressed like jangoo fett, all smugglers get standard issue wookies and correlian corvettes?
that troopers can only be good and dress like clones, while the sith troopers from the kotor games seem to have vanished.
why we all fight over hoth because it's a major strategic point and not just a place where a desperate semi crushed rebellion hides?
Uh.....no. I don't cry over video games. Not sure if by vet you meant SWG vet or just plain vet of Star Wars, but either way I'm glad that Bioware is going in a direction that is new and not simply rehashing SWG. SWG had a few things it did well, but for the most part it was a disappointment. Whether or not TOR turns out to be a trendsetter or just another failed MMO remains to be seen.
Well, personally, I don't cry over this. Why? Because it is an online game, and it does not effect my life one way or the other. If I wind up enjoying the game I will continue to pay for it. If I do not enjoy the game? Well then, I will not pay for the game.
Yea, I don't think I am gonna let a game cause me to lose any sleep at nite.
Well, personally, I don't cry over this. Why? Because it is an online game, and it does not effect my life one way or the other. If I wind up enjoying the game I will continue to pay for it. If I do not enjoy the game? Well then, I will not pay for the game.
Yea, I don't think I am gonna let a game cause me to lose any sleep at nite.
Sage words. But one can miss what was fun, still. Even if it's just a game. Something too many forget unfortunately. Often threads look more like religious dogma debates between opposing inquisitions, hehe. XD
I miss community experience as from some old games. EQ, DAoC, SWG. I have no clue if the fact community was stronger was connected to the more hardcore mechanics or if it were just different days. Though I guess making a game not too easy does form more likely communities. Too many soloers these days to really make good communities and too fast levelling. People rush through content all alone, and thus the days when you knew almost everyone from your server community are gone.
It's no reason to cry over. But it sure is something I miss a lot and wish some company could manage to create that sort of community again, because for me, thats a higher value than feature X... whatever is FotM.
As a Beta 3 till NGE player, who unlocked his jedi and second slot in the holo grind, had every single preorder item (loved my insta vehicle command that rocked!), had virtually all badges in the game including one CSR badge and the Hero of Tatooine, and hunted down a full set of Bounty Hunter armor before the DWB opened, Owned Mandalorian and jetpacks before the DWB became a joke, and killed nightsister elders and spellweavers till I looted 2 exceptional weapons, and bla bla bla. Nothing can replace SWG.....Not even a clone.....As many have stated, the community is gone, and half the draw of SWG was the social aspects that Ralph Koster implemented making the community what it was. SWG is dead, I wish it wasnt but this is the cold hard facts. Please retreat to the Veterans forum for continued whine.
That all bounty hunters are evil and dressed like jangoo fett, all smugglers get standard issue wookies and correlian corvettes?
that troopers can only be good and dress like clones, while the sith troopers from the kotor games seem to have vanished.
why we all fight over hoth because it's a major strategic point and not just a place where a desperate semi crushed rebellion hides?
SWTOR is a much simpler game designed for a much younger audience with much more limited objectives than SWG used to be. If it fails, and there are people who think it may, then it will finally prove to LA that they have been making a serious error since 2005 in creating SW MMOs for casual audiences rather than player audiences. A bit like the comic industry in the 80s suddenly realising that the people who were actually buying and enjoying comics weren't twelve year olds but twenty plus year olds.
The only Mistake LucasArts ever made was trusting SOE to make a MMO without FUBAR'ing it. Im not saying that there isnt a chance that BioWare isnt biting off more than it can chew. But atleast give them a chance BioWare made 2 offline Star Wars RPG's and they won more awards separatly than SWG ever did so that means Lucas was right to ask them to make a MMO. besides who knows what they have planned after release they might add the Sith Trooper.
EQ1 wwas a great game. Number 1 in NA subs back then, and I played from 01 till 06.
SOE's mistake was letting Koster make the game. Sandboxes dont pull big audiences, and TOR is going to smash SWG sub numbers.
As far as companions....it would be nice to have unique sidekicks for everyone. Hopefully you have the ability to at least gear them up as you wish. Seeing as I enjoy immersion to a degree, and not simulation, it wont bother me. If you ever raided with 2 or more necros in EQ, you know what I mean.
eh?
#1: koster did not work on EQ1 - he worked as chief creative officer in EQ2.
#2: even if koster did work on that game, you claim it was a mistake and yet you played a game for 5 years and describe it as a "great game"?
#3: name me a themepark game aside from WoW with more paying subscriptions than EVE Online.
[mod edit]
Final Fantasy is the only themepark that is close, I imagine it has something to do with it being older than wow and not being a direct wow clone aiming at a more hard core raid crowd, the purist if you will, also it makes perfect sense in FF lore to be RAID centric. But last time I checked its sub numbers had slid beneath EVE as well. L1 And L2 are higher but L1 isnt a themepark at all....... and L2 is mainly build for hardcore pvp with no group cap on dungeons and such.
But yes all of the EQ tree of games to wow to the wow clones all are way beneath EVE now, its a point that Themepark lovers and money hungry Developers havent figured out yet.
Actually, WoW, L1, L2, Aion and Runescape have more paying subs than EVE Online, and FFXI equals EVE Online's subs.
Overall the amount of MMO gamers playing themepark-like P2P MMO's puts the amount of sandbox MMO players into the deep shadows. Cancel out EVE Online, and the amount of sandbox MMO gamers is laughably small compared to themepark MMO gamers.
And that is only the P2P MMO's, take into account B2P, hybrid F2P, and F2P MMO's, and the gap between the number of themepark-style MMO gamers and sandbox MMO gamers becomes even larger.
I'm not even talking about the upcoming MMO's, of which most of its biggest potential hitters aren't sandbox MMO's at all, but themepark-style MMO's or MMO's building further upon a themepark-like foundation, not a sandbox-like foundation.
Next year's batch of MMO's will dwarf the sandbox MMO playing population into near-oblivion.
Sucks for those type of MMO gamers who can only enjoy the narrow range of sandbox-styled MMORPG's, but hey, changing times and such.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As a real armed forces veteran, I see threads like this and cry... swg does not grant one veteran status. If anything, it makes you a fool for not spotting a horrible game a mile away.
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Actually, WoW, L1, L2, Aion and Runescape have more paying subs than EVE Online, and FFXI equals EVE Online's subs.
Overall the amount of MMO gamers playing themepark-like P2P MMO's puts the amount of sandbox MMO players into the deep shadows. Cancel out EVE Online, and the amount of sandbox MMO gamers is laughably small compared to themepark MMO gamers.
And that is only the P2P MMO's, take into account B2P, hybrid F2P, and F2P MMO's, and the gap between the number of themepark-style MMO gamers and sandbox MMO gamers becomes even larger.
I'm not even talking about the upcoming MMO's, of which most of its biggest potential hitters aren't sandbox MMO's at all, but themepark-style MMO's or MMO's building further upon a themepark-like foundation, not a sandbox-like foundation.
Next year's batch of MMO's will dwarf the sandbox MMO playing population into near-oblivion.
Sucks for those type of MMO gamers who can only enjoy the narrow range of sandbox-styled MMORPG's, but hey, changing times and such.
Actually FF USED to have as many subs as EVE but has been surpassed by almost 100k in the last 3 years. L1 and L2 are not what I would call traditial themeparks..... L1 is no where near a themepark.... and raiding in L2 is more of an afterthought. Runescape is hardly a themepark, ...... I personally dont classify it as a game..... just an example of collision in Java......but whatever, Runescape is a strange clone of Ultima. Dofus a Sandbox is the largest FTP game out there, without a doubt it has the largest market share.
Sandbox games make up nearly 100% of the small market PTP success stories, some of them dont aim at large audiences like Fallen Earth, but I can with certainty tell you Fallen Earth will be around long after WAR and AOC go FTP and die in misery.
Comments
Your opinion and nothing more. The game isn't the same game now so, I won't argue that point. The game that was, for a great many, was exactly the type of game that they were looking for and though it never fully was fleshed out it was and will likely continue to be the mmo I have the best memories from.
I think some 500 of my posts have been used trying to sum up what the problems abound with SWG were but low and behold you have done it with better than I ever could with this post.
And I'm going to start making it a point to always ask anytime I even see the words SWG or sandbox in a post, exactly why can't a sandbox like SWG was have good pve content?
How would having compelling heroic content to play through have changed that game for the worse? One thing I can say is it would not be the smoldering wreck that it is now.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I still think sandbox - themepark hybrid approach is the way to go for an ideal MMORPG, sandbox features and themepark elements aren't mutually exclusive, it's just the balancing that will be important so that one won't flourish at the cost of the other, and that's what you see in most MMO's these days, it's either a good sandbox experience or a good themepark experience, but not both.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wow...hate Raph much? Calm down Moaky.
The fact is, SWG was released well before it should have been. SoE got greedy and released an unfinished, buggy, sloppy game. The only thing the failure of SWG proves is SoE's ability to **edit** up Star Wars. Smed can stick to elfs and magicians in EQ, EQ 2, EQ 2X and EQ 2XL.
I'm one of those who is WISHING for SWG2. I would DIE for a decent Star Wars game with depth, freedom, exploration, Stormtroopers, X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Death Stars, ISD's, etc etc etc...That is my EFFING DREAM GAME!!!
But...my desire for a perfect Star Wars MMO surely doesn't mean I think SW:ToR will suck. In fact, I've been looking forward to it for years now. I'm anxious as hell for SW:ToR to be released - I'll preorder it, buy multiple copies of it and have multiple accounts...but no matter how good SW:ToR is, it won't be the timeline "I" want it to be.
So please, stop making assumptions that simply aren't true. I won't be "stuttering" and SWGs failure is a reflection on SoE's mismanagement and choices, not Sandboxes.
Will you stop only when you have driven away every single one who is not entirely of your opinion from this forum? Did you learn nothing from the past days?
Some loved some parts of SWG. Is that a crime?
You know, calling people whiner and posting funny Luke Skywalker pics every time just makes you look like a super-nerd, who eseentially has nothing to reply.
THIS! This is exactly what a game needs to be. No game will EVER be exactly what everyone is looking for, but a hybrid of the 2 best elements of MMOs (Sandboxes and themeparks) is the most obvious answer. Toss in a post ROTJ Star Wars theme and it's the last game I'll ever buy.
Every time someone calls themselves a mmorpg vet I cringe a little.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I have yet to see a better game than EQ1.....problem being it was so unforgiving, and grindy.
You had pretty deep trades....yet they werent the end-all be-all.
Foraging/fishing for those into that stuff.
Huge amount of factions to work on.
Huge gameworld.
World PVP....if you played on those servers. It wasnt forced(PVP were roughly 8% of total server numbers.)
No housing. (EQ2 added instanced housing, which didnt clutter up the landscape)
Multiple unique starting areas. The races were done right IMO.
There was lore to the areas.
YOu could RP if you wanted to. They even had a server that was designated for it.
And most of all there was tons of PVE content to keep folks busy.
IMO all games should start with a working engine/fleshed out combat classes , work on huge amounts of PVE content/game world, and THEN worry about what they can add in like PVP/trades/etc.
The second you start your game around PVP & trades, you are missing the boat. You can appeal to some folks, but those interested in PVE are going to be more apt to look for games that concentrate on that area of gameplay.
At least that is the way I see things. /shrug
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I agree too. Why have only one when a huge AAA game could have parts of both?
And don't stop there...toss in some well done mini-games, the ability to RP, flight simulator, civilization builder, racing, player influenced economy...with $150 million being dumped into SW:ToR, there isn't any excuse for all of these areas not being covered tbh.
I am a super-nerd, so I don't take offense at that. However, I am not as pathetic as some who hang around these forums and post the same regurgitated negative comments about TOR simply because it is not following the SWG model. I let it go for a long time, but after a while I started getting really really tired of it.
I can't tell you how many times SWG vets have generalized fans of TOR as 12 year-olds or retards. They act as though we are children who enjoy nothing but instant gratification simply because we don't want this game to be like SWG.
I didn't go to the SWG vet forum and post about how all of them are losers, yet that is essentially what they have done repeatedly on this forum. If the SWG vets would stop coming here with their regurgitated arguments and negative jabs/insults at everyone who is in support of this game, I wouldn't reply with such angst.
And to answer your question: YES. I will absolutely stop making fun of SWG whiners when they stop posting the same tired BS on this forum. However, if they post valid criticisms of the game that ARE NOT based upon the fact that it is not going to be a sandbox, then I have no problem engaging in a logical debate.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I try not to get overly attached to one game. It cramps my style. I try not to make constant comparisons of one game to another. It defeats the purpose of experiencing something anew. I'll admit. I was loving SWG when it first came out, but I wasn't so blindly loyal to the game that I couldn't see the terrible flaws that plagued it. And I wasn't so committed to it that I couldn't bear to part from it.
Luckily my head was level and my emotions were in check to keep me from experiencing the pile of chet they called NGE. Actually my friends and I laughed at the whole debacle as it unfolded between the cult like fanbois and the devs. Refunds, insults and curses were flying between the two groups like the Hatfields and the McCoys. All brought to you by article after article. Neither said backed down and ultimately no one won. And now we have the McCoys itchin for a new fight and they don't care if the other side ain't the Hatfields.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Nope, not even close. A little dramatic here don't ya think? Its a video game. If its fun then yay, if it's not then i'll move on to another game.
Buck up kiddo, there's always tomorrow
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Nah, I don't cry. If anything this game (and then the other SW games released by SOE recently) just cement the point that I'm am done with the SW IP in pretty much any fashion. I don't support the "get over it" preaching that you see from some. I more back the "move on" approach. In that one you realize you'll never get back what you lost but you also know that you aren't obligated to do business with that company ever again.
Businesses make choices. So do customers.
No harm no foul. I can spend my money elsewhere and all is well in the gaming world.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
no. I dont arbitrarily look for things to bitch about.
This. ^^
If SOE had spent the money it ploughed into the CU and the NGE into bug-fixing and balancing, I believe the game would have the same orgnic growth pattern as Eve.
But just because SWG was a good game - and could have been better - doesn't mean that TOR will be a failure. This game will rise - or fall - on its own merits.
Uh.....no. I don't cry over video games. Not sure if by vet you meant SWG vet or just plain vet of Star Wars, but either way I'm glad that Bioware is going in a direction that is new and not simply rehashing SWG. SWG had a few things it did well, but for the most part it was a disappointment. Whether or not TOR turns out to be a trendsetter or just another failed MMO remains to be seen.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Well, personally, I don't cry over this. Why? Because it is an online game, and it does not effect my life one way or the other. If I wind up enjoying the game I will continue to pay for it. If I do not enjoy the game? Well then, I will not pay for the game.
Yea, I don't think I am gonna let a game cause me to lose any sleep at nite.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Sage words. But one can miss what was fun, still. Even if it's just a game. Something too many forget unfortunately. Often threads look more like religious dogma debates between opposing inquisitions, hehe. XD
I miss community experience as from some old games. EQ, DAoC, SWG. I have no clue if the fact community was stronger was connected to the more hardcore mechanics or if it were just different days. Though I guess making a game not too easy does form more likely communities. Too many soloers these days to really make good communities and too fast levelling. People rush through content all alone, and thus the days when you knew almost everyone from your server community are gone.
It's no reason to cry over. But it sure is something I miss a lot and wish some company could manage to create that sort of community again, because for me, thats a higher value than feature X... whatever is FotM.
Ok lets face the cold hard facts .
SWG is gone , nothing you do will bring it back cause !!!!
here comes the shock !!
The SWG community that made it fun is gone , long gone , all turned into grumpy jaded players !!!
Now you can jump from one MMO to another MMO , you are the grumpy jaded player .
To you SWTOR might not be SWG , cause you are not the same person who played SWG .
Nothing will turn back time , cause the new MMO are based on the next generation .
And sadly means you have to be helpfull friendly suffering and always be abused by tons of idiots .
Trying to foster a bit of community spirit .
Well if you are willing to do that , thank god every MMO seem to have people willing to do that .
Then it will be FUN , it will be grand and exciting , just those people are geting to be a dying breed .
Sorry i lost my fun in CoX already , but i paid 4 years longer for a product , cause there were so many nice people around.
Some of them i helped gain experience when they were still noobs and didn´t had fun .
See them turn into devoted community helpers , in the end SWG vets you dont miss the game , sorry you miss the people you played with the most .
That accounts for any past MMO games you hold dear , its the people that made it special .
Not some stupid raids not some stupid item , or wipes its the people you hold dear .
Sometimes people change and sometimes you change .
As a Beta 3 till NGE player, who unlocked his jedi and second slot in the holo grind, had every single preorder item (loved my insta vehicle command that rocked!), had virtually all badges in the game including one CSR badge and the Hero of Tatooine, and hunted down a full set of Bounty Hunter armor before the DWB opened, Owned Mandalorian and jetpacks before the DWB became a joke, and killed nightsister elders and spellweavers till I looted 2 exceptional weapons, and bla bla bla. Nothing can replace SWG.....Not even a clone.....As many have stated, the community is gone, and half the draw of SWG was the social aspects that Ralph Koster implemented making the community what it was. SWG is dead, I wish it wasnt but this is the cold hard facts. Please retreat to the Veterans forum for continued whine.
Final Fantasy is the only themepark that is close, I imagine it has something to do with it being older than wow and not being a direct wow clone aiming at a more hard core raid crowd, the purist if you will, also it makes perfect sense in FF lore to be RAID centric. But last time I checked its sub numbers had slid beneath EVE as well. L1 And L2 are higher but L1 isnt a themepark at all....... and L2 is mainly build for hardcore pvp with no group cap on dungeons and such.
But yes all of the EQ tree of games to wow to the wow clones all are way beneath EVE now, its a point that Themepark lovers and money hungry Developers havent figured out yet.
Actually, WoW, L1, L2, Aion and Runescape have more paying subs than EVE Online, and FFXI equals EVE Online's subs.
Overall the amount of MMO gamers playing themepark-like P2P MMO's puts the amount of sandbox MMO players into the deep shadows. Cancel out EVE Online, and the amount of sandbox MMO gamers is laughably small compared to themepark MMO gamers.
And that is only the P2P MMO's, take into account B2P, hybrid F2P, and F2P MMO's, and the gap between the number of themepark-style MMO gamers and sandbox MMO gamers becomes even larger.
I'm not even talking about the upcoming MMO's, of which most of its biggest potential hitters aren't sandbox MMO's at all, but themepark-style MMO's or MMO's building further upon a themepark-like foundation, not a sandbox-like foundation.
Next year's batch of MMO's will dwarf the sandbox MMO playing population into near-oblivion.
Sucks for those type of MMO gamers who can only enjoy the narrow range of sandbox-styled MMORPG's, but hey, changing times and such.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
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Actually FF USED to have as many subs as EVE but has been surpassed by almost 100k in the last 3 years. L1 and L2 are not what I would call traditial themeparks..... L1 is no where near a themepark.... and raiding in L2 is more of an afterthought. Runescape is hardly a themepark, ...... I personally dont classify it as a game..... just an example of collision in Java......but whatever, Runescape is a strange clone of Ultima. Dofus a Sandbox is the largest FTP game out there, without a doubt it has the largest market share.
Sandbox games make up nearly 100% of the small market PTP success stories, some of them dont aim at large audiences like Fallen Earth, but I can with certainty tell you Fallen Earth will be around long after WAR and AOC go FTP and die in misery.