I thought more female gamers played mmos or maybe i get that fact mixed with wii games
Female who games signing in.
They are there, playing. You might not know it all the time. Half the time I pretend I am a man while in game, just so I will be less likely to be harassed.
That is, I think, a big reason why I see more women on forums like this one then I do in game. It is easier, because most of the guys act like, to quote something I saw just a few minutes ago, "a lot of whining, sexist, hostile frat boys."
We don't want to deal with that.
But that probably has nothing to do with not having a next-gen game. I think we do, and we keep getting new generations of game, but none of them capture that same feeling that the first one did, because we all expect more and more each time we get a new game. We expect the bes things from every game we have touched, and it is not likely to be seen all in one place.
Add that to the fact that you cannot please everyone all the time, and it will not happen, that I can see. That perfect game will not exist. We can keep trying though.
Indeed we do not. I tend to roll male characters for the exact same reasons. Unfortunately sexism is still something very connected to games in general. (See Bikini-Chainmail and sutty char design as a symptom if you want.)
I mean, just look at MMOs. So many MMORPGs are by and large male fantasies; they cover the typical male hero with huge chest and square face with skimpy dressed slim females. It just has this big "teen boy fantasy" label on it. I know you don't want to hear it, but it's no surprise that WOW is such a success, because it was made more thoughtful for the wishes of many female gamers. Not necessary all, but I am sure it has a lot of "average" people, including women, and not only the usual suspects of hardcore macho heroes aka nerd boys playing it. I mean listen to what they always say about TOR. You can play Obi-Wan or Luke or Anakin or Han Solo or... See something? None of these devs ever said you can play Leia or Amidala - and frankly I would not want to either.
Also I know some of my friends stay away from MMORPGs, when I tell them I play MMOs for many years, I always get the reaction why I play with all these agressive nerds/fans in such an environment. It is what many women think about games, still. And when they come to this forum, it does not really disperse those assumptions.
As to the games itself: I see every MMO developing company is focussing one a target audience, trying to make one or two things great and the rest is only so-so. Like WAR focussing on PVP or AoC on the "blood & gore" or SWTOR in the "story". And in the end we always got a game great in some aspect and that's it. What made those great games in the past great (for me), was they were not specialized but had many things for many people, like UO, EQ or SWG.
nobody's going to risk a fortune and get away from the magic formula of
quest hubs
leveling
instanced raids
Bingo.
Why change the formula when million upon millions of players are playing this way?
Face it, those of us who want something more like DAoC, UO and AC used to offer are far, far outnumbered by people who just want to stare at their screen pressing 1, 2, 3, combos while running around the zone looking for Green Powder. How can that possibly be fun?
So what are the options? Wait for guild wars 2 or go back and play daoc? I miss DAOC andred, i loved that server. I was in the guild who won that server... Fatalis
Next-gen is a game that isn't a copy of wow, that it incorporates a seamless sandbox world. Not an amusement park, no instances. Just a living breathing world, controlled by the players. The political system is run by the players, the players decide who's in charge, who to lead, who to fight, who to allign with to get back control of their areas, so they can farn,harvest and live.
That is the Next-Gen game.
Now, what is the industries? The easiest game a player can get into and enjoy the amusement park, since they can try different rides.
The answer? There is no next gen games, until all these games die from people getting bored of the genre, give it another 10 years i'd say.
Next-gen is a game that isn't a copy of wow, that it incorporates a seamless sandbox world. Not an amusement park, no instances. Just a living breathing world, controlled by the players. The political system is run by the players, the players decide who's in charge, who to lead, who to fight, who to allign with to get back control of their areas, so they can farn,harvest and live.
you just described MO.
unfortunately people keep getting bored of the simplicity of such a world.
1) Too much emphasis by companies on being the next "big thing" in the mmo market: Taking some concepts from your predecessors is alright but way too many try to almost make a carbon copy of them and then wonder why they aren't pulling in the numbers like those they copied are doing.
2) Unable to learn from past miscues and mistakes: Way too many companies whether through ignorance or stubbornness refuse to learn from other companies past errors in judgment and design and continue to repeat the same follies over again which in turn affects their game design, development, and growth.
3) I know what's best for you and what you enjoy: Way too many companies ignore their fanbase when they make decisions about their game. I'm not referring to listening to every sing poster's gripe but when a large portion of your customers are looking for certain aspects or seem up in arms about a direction a game is going in an area it would behoove a company to pay more attention to them.
4) Fear of failure and lost profit potential: I don't totally blame companies but this is a reason for a lack of changes and different concepts being used in mmos. Making one of these games costs a substantial amount of time and money so daring to think outside the box is a big risk considering you could very well create something different and impressive yet fail miserably if it goes over like a ton of bricks or for whatever reason does not garner the hype for you to be profitable. Plus, what might seem fantastic and entertaining in theory could actually end up being laborious and dull in practice. It is a huge gamble to think outside the box when companies can look at other games that follow a set formula that has been proven to work time and time again.
5) Customers say they want something different but they really don't: I'm as guilty of it as the next one at times but a lot of people go on and on about how they want something new, challenging, different, etc. Then when a game comes out that tries even to a small extent to be different or have different concepts from the norm they bitch and moan that it isn't what they want or why can't they be more like game 'X'. For as much griping as people do about games when it comes down to it a lot of them seem to simply be burned out on the genre as a whole rather than really wanting something different on their plate.
Thos are a few that came to my mind.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Jakd... You have to admit, nobody has done that type of game right yet. If you really think darkfail and mortal online have done it right you're wrong. It also needs to not be in 1st person... How annoying is first person? Have you played darkfall? It's ther worst UI ever, and mortal online is buggy and unfinished, if someone made the type of game i described correctly. You'd see it as the next thing.. Which is why guild wars is the #1 hyped game right now, well guild wars 2.. And it's heavily instanced.
I also think a 3 faction game with everything i said above, could work as well. NOTICE 3, Not 2 ... 2 is total fail
1) Too much emphasis by companies on being the next "big thing" in the mmo market: Taking some concepts from your predecessors is alright but way too many try to almost make a carbon copy of them and then wonder why they aren't pulling in the numbers like those they copied are doing.
2) Unable to learn from past miscues and mistakes: Way too many companies whether through ignorance or stubbornness refuse to learn from other companies past errors in judgment and design and continue to repeat the same follies over again which in turn affects their game design, development, and growth.
3) I know what's best for you and what you enjoy: Way too many companies ignore their fanbase when they make decisions about their game. I'm not referring to listening to every sing poster's gripe but when a large portion of your customers are looking for certain aspects or seem up in arms about a direction a game is going in an area it would behoove a company to pay more attention to them.
4) Fear of failure and lost profit potential: I don't totally blame companies but this is a reason for a lack of changes and different concepts being used in mmos. Making one of these games costs a substantial amount of time and money so daring to think outside the box is a big risk considering you could very well create something different and impressive yet fail miserably if it goes over like a ton of bricks or for whatever reason does not garner the hype for you to be profitable. Plus, what might seem fantastic and entertaining in theory could actually end up being laborious and dull in practice. It is a huge gamble to think outside the box when companies can look at other games that follow a set formula that has been proven to work time and time again.
5) Customers say they want something different but they really don't: I'm as guilty of it as the next one at times but a lot of people go on and on about how they want something new, challenging, different, etc. Then when a game comes out that tries even to a small extent to be different or have different concepts from the norm they bitch and moan that it isn't what they want or why can't they be more like game 'X'. For as much griping as people do about games when it comes down to it a lot of them seem to simply be burned out on the genre as a whole rather than really wanting something different on their plate.
Thos are a few that came to my mind.
Another option is..
3 faction game, pvp like daoc in a center zone accessed by all realms. With upgraded graphics,story etc... Basically a DAOC with shrouded islands and old frontiers.
AOC tried it, but they failed at the game itself, which is why it didn't work.
I think a big money maker would be a game based off of how the original DAOC with shrouded islands expansion worked. Even new frontiers perhaps, relics etc... Just reskin(obviously new age graphics) it and change the theme/story
When it takes many, many years to develop a game, it's going to take a long, long time for any kind of evolution or growth to happen.
You also have to consider the amount of money involved. Devs can't afford to stray too far from what is known to work. The best we can hope for is small improvements and games that are aggregates of what the other games out there are doing right.
I always thought the reason we haven't seen a next gen MMO was because of developers being too scared to take the risk of straying too far from the WoW model. But after observing several releases, I think the real problem is the MMO playerbase. The second that a game releases that isn't exactly like the last game they played, they jump all over it. They go out of their way to put things down that are different, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.
Regardless what the definition might mean of Next Gen, to me personaly it means when a game looks and feels as awesome as the current CGI game trailers, then I personaly would feel a game to be next gen. So for me the reason is technical limitations with current tech. But I do believe that perhaps in 3-8 years from now it will become more of a reality.
1) Too much emphasis by companies on being the next "big thing" in the mmo market: Taking some concepts from your predecessors is alright but way too many try to almost make a carbon copy of them and then wonder why they aren't pulling in the numbers like those they copied are doing.
2) Unable to learn from past miscues and mistakes: Way too many companies whether through ignorance or stubbornness refuse to learn from other companies past errors in judgment and design and continue to repeat the same follies over again which in turn affects their game design, development, and growth.
3) I know what's best for you and what you enjoy: Way too many companies ignore their fanbase when they make decisions about their game. I'm not referring to listening to every sing poster's gripe but when a large portion of your customers are looking for certain aspects or seem up in arms about a direction a game is going in an area it would behoove a company to pay more attention to them.
4) Fear of failure and lost profit potential: I don't totally blame companies but this is a reason for a lack of changes and different concepts being used in mmos. Making one of these games costs a substantial amount of time and money so daring to think outside the box is a big risk considering you could very well create something different and impressive yet fail miserably if it goes over like a ton of bricks or for whatever reason does not garner the hype for you to be profitable. Plus, what might seem fantastic and entertaining in theory could actually end up being laborious and dull in practice. It is a huge gamble to think outside the box when companies can look at other games that follow a set formula that has been proven to work time and time again.
5) Customers say they want something different but they really don't: I'm as guilty of it as the next one at times but a lot of people go on and on about how they want something new, challenging, different, etc. Then when a game comes out that tries even to a small extent to be different or have different concepts from the norm they bitch and moan that it isn't what they want or why can't they be more like game 'X'. For as much griping as people do about games when it comes down to it a lot of them seem to simply be burned out on the genre as a whole rather than really wanting something different on their plate.
Thos are a few that came to my mind.
Yes, yes and yes. I think this is IMO the best writeup. Arrogance of "we know better whats entertaining for you" is a virus in MMO developing industry. I read it all the time. Right followed by "it was not our vision to make XYZ". Those visions... plagued Brad McQuaid already.
I would add
6) Unwillingness to keep what is known and proven. To some degree you can't totally reinvent the wheel. Too often I saw innovation for the sake of innovation. That just does not do well. For instance, every MMO with much char customization was liked for that feature. And yet, new MMOs often fall behind that accomplishment for reasons I don't fathom. Just one example for many. There are plenty of things in MMOs gamers liked, but for some reason the next approach drops or ignores it.
I'd have to point the finger at our community. I don't think the majority of us are ready or willing to go in a new direction just yet. Beta testers likely have a lot to do with how these games shape up over the years. If the majority of gams that have come out are WoW clones, I'd have to say a large part of why is because of the beta testers' input.
You're half right.
Beta testers actually have next to no say in how a game is designed. They come in pretty much after all is said-and-done. They're there to collect hard data (ie: server load) and find bugs that the test department didn't find.
Where you ARE right, is that a large part of the blame for no next-gen MMO, DOES fall on the community.
Plain and simple, we buy crap over and over and over again. We bitch and moan about how MMO's are not advancing but we keep buying the crap. And while the publishers certainly hate the bitching and moaning, (they certainly send their PR police out to places such as this website) they don't actually feel compelled to make the product better cause we keep buying it.
Next-gen is a game that isn't a copy of wow, that it incorporates a seamless sandbox world. Not an amusement park, no instances. Just a living breathing world, controlled by the players. The political system is run by the players, the players decide who's in charge, who to lead, who to fight, who to allign with to get back control of their areas, so they can farn,harvest and live.
That is the Next-Gen game.
Now, what is the industries? The easiest game a player can get into and enjoy the amusement park, since they can try different rides.
The answer? There is no next gen games, until all these games die from people getting bored of the genre, give it another 10 years i'd say.
Sounds exactly like the game Dark And Light. That game failed miserably.
And most games like it aren't that great. So do people really NOT want a nextgen mmo?
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
There'll be no revolutionary ideas as long as we, with our wallets, convince companies that their games sell. Fine, bitch all you like about the MMO market being stagnant, but as long as you pay for a game that follows the WoW-esque structure we're tires of you're telling companies that it's profitable to try and beat WoW at its own game instead of breaking new ground.
Look at Mirror's Edge. Nobody had ever made a first-person game based around movement before; it was a pretty revolutionary idea. If it had sold well EA might have continued to break new ground there; one day conventional FPSs may have all had wall-running and vaulting systems. It sold poorly because we, consciously or not, decided that it wasn't an idea worth supporting; it wasn't too profitable for EA and consequently any sequel plans were scrapped. I expect EA will be more careful about taking risks in future because of this.
I bought APB despite its flaws, purely to send a message: doing something new, stirring the stagnant pool in which the average MMO gamer enjoys dwelling, will sell. It's the most I can do as a consumer; I can endorse an idea by buying into it. If all of us who want some change in the industry do so, it might encourage companies to take risks with their MMOs.
At the end if the day MMOs are by far the most expensive type of game to develop; investors want a "reliable" investment, not some crazy hit-or-miss new idea. Revolutionary ideas will only make it through pre-production if we convince investors and corporations that they sell.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
I'm sorry but I don't think the OP or many of the people in this thread really understand what "Next Gen" means.
Next Gen, as far as an MMO is concerned, is a buzz-word for an MMO that has been created and builds upon the technologies (or MMOs) before it.
WAR was "next-gen" compared to WoW because it built upon a lot of the features. Champions was "next gen" based on WAR because it was built upon stuff that WAR (and other games of course) did with things like the Public Quest system.
The reality of it is that because of the nature of the genre, games are constantly evolving. 'Next Gen' usually refers to things like consoles, where the basis of the unit doesn't change. All an MMO has to do to update their game is patch, or release an expansion, etc. 'Next Gen' isn't really a good word to use for this genre because it's a sliding scale, and MMOs aren't released in competition with eachother, but the market as a whole.
In the end, 'Next Gen' is a phrase used by PR people to try and drum up buzz, or by people who don't really know what it means to try and apply to a genre they may not fully understand.
The reason we don't have a "next gen" is because there is no "gen" anymore. After the leaps from MUDS to UO to EQ to WoW, the genre has become too fluid to think of it in terms of cut-off blocks.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
There'll be no revolutionary ideas as long as we, with our wallets, convince companies that their games sell. Fine, bitch all you like about the MMO market being stagnant, but as long as you pay for a game that follows the WoW-esque structure we're tires of you're telling companies that it's profitable to try and beat WoW at its own game instead of breaking new ground.
Look at Mirror's Edge. Nobody had ever made a first-person game based around movement before; it was a pretty revolutionary idea. If it had sold well EA might have continued to break new ground there; one day conventional FPSs may have all had wall-running and vaulting systems. It sold poorly because we, consciously or not, decided that it wasn't an idea worth supporting; it wasn't too profitable for EA and consequently any sequel plans were scrapped. I expect EA will be more careful about taking risks in future because of this.
I bought APB despite its flaws, purely to send a message: doing something new, stirring the stagnant pool in which the average MMO gamer enjoys dwelling, will sell. It's the most I can do as a consumer; I can endorse an idea by buying into it. If all of us who want some change in the industry do so, it might encourage companies to take risks with their MMOs.
At the end if the day MMOs are by far the most expensive type of game to develop; investors want a "reliable" investment, not some crazy hit-or-miss new idea. Revolutionary ideas will only make it through pre-production if we convince investors and corporations that they sell.
Agree and disagree.
150% agree with "There'll be no revolutionary ideas as long as we, with our wallets, convince companies that their games sell"
I do however heartily disagree with buying a game with known flaws.
Next-Gen does not mean 'non-WoW' from a design standpoint. The QUALITY of MMO's must evolve (even moreso than gameplay features IMO) in order for it to be Next-Gen.
Innovation costs money (as you put forth very well). But it's all for naught if the game has tons of immersion breaking flaws. As a consumer, if you manage to get a message through to the bean-counters that yes you'll buy their game, as long as it has X and Y 'new amazing features and innovations' but neglect to take a stand against typical MMO build quality (ie:absolute garbage)... than that's all you'll get. Half baked neato features in a game that breaks.
Investors will ALWAYS try to do the absolute bare minimum.
I'm sorry but I don't think the OP or many of the people in this thread really understand what "Next Gen" means.
Next Gen, as far as an MMO is concerned, is a buzz-word for an MMO that has been created and builds upon the technologies (or MMOs) before it.
WAR was "next-gen" compared to WoW because it built upon a lot of the features. Champions was "next gen" based on WAR because it was built upon stuff that WAR (and other games of course) did with things like the Public Quest system.
The reality of it is that because of the nature of the genre, games are constantly evolving. 'Next Gen' usually refers to things like consoles, where the basis of the unit doesn't change. All an MMO has to do to update their game is patch, or release an expansion, etc. 'Next Gen' isn't really a good word to use for this genre because it's a sliding scale, and MMOs aren't released in competition with eachother, but the market as a whole.
In the end, 'Next Gen' is a phrase used by PR people to try and drum up buzz, or by people who don't really know what it means to try and apply to a genre they may not fully understand.
The reason we don't have a "next gen" is because there is no "gen" anymore. After the leaps from MUDS to UO to EQ to WoW, the genre has become too fluid to think of it in terms of cut-off blocks.
You're right in terms of your definition of next-gen; my reply was a bit far off-topic. I was referring to the general lack of new ideas in the industry, with each game being a gradual evolution of the last until we've got a completely different beast. No MMO in recent memory has broken new ground in terms of the game's objectives or incentives. You play, without fail, for loot, XP, gold or all three. No exceptions. Not because you care about a character, not because you care about the story, only for an arbitrary reward at the end.
The structure of most MMOs is also exactly the same. Quest your way up the low levels, grinding whenever content gets thin. Hit dungeons periodically with groups throughout the lower levels. Avoid PvP until the higher levels. Max out character with raids and dungeons, then grind for PvP gear. The only exception I can think of is WAR in that open-world PvP is important right from the get-go.
EVE is the perfect example of a "revolution". XP bars mean nothing; loot means almost nothing. It's all about power, all about survival. You rely on other players because you'll lose everything if you don't, not to make grinding for rare gear easier. There's no clearly-defined objective, no shiny armour or PvP raid at the end of the road. You're simply shoved into the world with next to nothing and shown a massive, cruel, insurmountable chain of people much more powerful than you could ever hope to be. And, as humans instinctively do, you hold on and climb the chain. In terms of design, EVE can't be compared to other MMOs. It's the ultimate PvPer's dream; all risk and all reward, it's the ultimate diplomatic challenge with the corporations' fragile relations. It proves that the devs don't have to give a shit about accessibility beyond a good tutorial, as long as there's enough potential for complexity you'll keep attracting players.
Think about it: EVE offers you a chance to actually make something of yourself in the game world, and we lap it up. It offers limitless power; there is no "level cap". There's always a bigger fish in the sea, and as long as it's there you can't resist screwing it over. It seems other companies lack CCP's guts.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
Comments
Indeed we do not. I tend to roll male characters for the exact same reasons. Unfortunately sexism is still something very connected to games in general. (See Bikini-Chainmail and sutty char design as a symptom if you want.)
I mean, just look at MMOs. So many MMORPGs are by and large male fantasies; they cover the typical male hero with huge chest and square face with skimpy dressed slim females. It just has this big "teen boy fantasy" label on it. I know you don't want to hear it, but it's no surprise that WOW is such a success, because it was made more thoughtful for the wishes of many female gamers. Not necessary all, but I am sure it has a lot of "average" people, including women, and not only the usual suspects of hardcore macho heroes aka nerd boys playing it. I mean listen to what they always say about TOR. You can play Obi-Wan or Luke or Anakin or Han Solo or... See something? None of these devs ever said you can play Leia or Amidala - and frankly I would not want to either.
Also I know some of my friends stay away from MMORPGs, when I tell them I play MMOs for many years, I always get the reaction why I play with all these agressive nerds/fans in such an environment. It is what many women think about games, still. And when they come to this forum, it does not really disperse those assumptions.
As to the games itself: I see every MMO developing company is focussing one a target audience, trying to make one or two things great and the rest is only so-so. Like WAR focussing on PVP or AoC on the "blood & gore" or SWTOR in the "story". And in the end we always got a game great in some aspect and that's it. What made those great games in the past great (for me), was they were not specialized but had many things for many people, like UO, EQ or SWG.
Just wait for GW2 :-)
Bingo.
Why change the formula when million upon millions of players are playing this way?
Face it, those of us who want something more like DAoC, UO and AC used to offer are far, far outnumbered by people who just want to stare at their screen pressing 1, 2, 3, combos while running around the zone looking for Green Powder. How can that possibly be fun?
you
you havent made the next gen mmo yet.
WTF ARE YOU WAITING FOR MAN?!
So what are the options? Wait for guild wars 2 or go back and play daoc? I miss DAOC andred, i loved that server. I was in the guild who won that server... Fatalis
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm curious as to what exactly defines "Next-Gen MMORPG".
What is it that makes something NExt Gen when it comes to mmos? Graphics? Gameplay? The coding?
What about those things make them next gen? Does seeing eyelashes ony our character or wrinkles make it have next gen graphics?
What makes next gen gameplay exactly?
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
Next-gen is a game that isn't a copy of wow, that it incorporates a seamless sandbox world. Not an amusement park, no instances. Just a living breathing world, controlled by the players. The political system is run by the players, the players decide who's in charge, who to lead, who to fight, who to allign with to get back control of their areas, so they can farn,harvest and live.
That is the Next-Gen game.
Now, what is the industries? The easiest game a player can get into and enjoy the amusement park, since they can try different rides.
The answer? There is no next gen games, until all these games die from people getting bored of the genre, give it another 10 years i'd say.
you just described MO.
unfortunately people keep getting bored of the simplicity of such a world.
1) Too much emphasis by companies on being the next "big thing" in the mmo market: Taking some concepts from your predecessors is alright but way too many try to almost make a carbon copy of them and then wonder why they aren't pulling in the numbers like those they copied are doing.
2) Unable to learn from past miscues and mistakes: Way too many companies whether through ignorance or stubbornness refuse to learn from other companies past errors in judgment and design and continue to repeat the same follies over again which in turn affects their game design, development, and growth.
3) I know what's best for you and what you enjoy: Way too many companies ignore their fanbase when they make decisions about their game. I'm not referring to listening to every sing poster's gripe but when a large portion of your customers are looking for certain aspects or seem up in arms about a direction a game is going in an area it would behoove a company to pay more attention to them.
4) Fear of failure and lost profit potential: I don't totally blame companies but this is a reason for a lack of changes and different concepts being used in mmos. Making one of these games costs a substantial amount of time and money so daring to think outside the box is a big risk considering you could very well create something different and impressive yet fail miserably if it goes over like a ton of bricks or for whatever reason does not garner the hype for you to be profitable. Plus, what might seem fantastic and entertaining in theory could actually end up being laborious and dull in practice. It is a huge gamble to think outside the box when companies can look at other games that follow a set formula that has been proven to work time and time again.
5) Customers say they want something different but they really don't: I'm as guilty of it as the next one at times but a lot of people go on and on about how they want something new, challenging, different, etc. Then when a game comes out that tries even to a small extent to be different or have different concepts from the norm they bitch and moan that it isn't what they want or why can't they be more like game 'X'. For as much griping as people do about games when it comes down to it a lot of them seem to simply be burned out on the genre as a whole rather than really wanting something different on their plate.
Thos are a few that came to my mind.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Jakd... You have to admit, nobody has done that type of game right yet. If you really think darkfail and mortal online have done it right you're wrong. It also needs to not be in 1st person... How annoying is first person? Have you played darkfall? It's ther worst UI ever, and mortal online is buggy and unfinished, if someone made the type of game i described correctly. You'd see it as the next thing.. Which is why guild wars is the #1 hyped game right now, well guild wars 2.. And it's heavily instanced.
I also think a 3 faction game with everything i said above, could work as well. NOTICE 3, Not 2 ... 2 is total fail
Another option is..
3 faction game, pvp like daoc in a center zone accessed by all realms. With upgraded graphics,story etc... Basically a DAOC with shrouded islands and old frontiers.
AOC tried it, but they failed at the game itself, which is why it didn't work.
I think a big money maker would be a game based off of how the original DAOC with shrouded islands expansion worked. Even new frontiers perhaps, relics etc... Just reskin(obviously new age graphics) it and change the theme/story
When it takes many, many years to develop a game, it's going to take a long, long time for any kind of evolution or growth to happen.
You also have to consider the amount of money involved. Devs can't afford to stray too far from what is known to work. The best we can hope for is small improvements and games that are aggregates of what the other games out there are doing right.
I always thought the reason we haven't seen a next gen MMO was because of developers being too scared to take the risk of straying too far from the WoW model. But after observing several releases, I think the real problem is the MMO playerbase. The second that a game releases that isn't exactly like the last game they played, they jump all over it. They go out of their way to put things down that are different, and I don't see that stopping anytime soon.
Regardless what the definition might mean of Next Gen, to me personaly it means when a game looks and feels as awesome as the current CGI game trailers, then I personaly would feel a game to be next gen. So for me the reason is technical limitations with current tech. But I do believe that perhaps in 3-8 years from now it will become more of a reality.
i admit to nothing....except social conditioning.
but yes i'v played both games and they both have their flaws.
next gen mmo will be something that is boviously completely different and will set a new trend for all other mmos from there on. that's it.
Yes, yes and yes. I think this is IMO the best writeup. Arrogance of "we know better whats entertaining for you" is a virus in MMO developing industry. I read it all the time. Right followed by "it was not our vision to make XYZ". Those visions... plagued Brad McQuaid already.
I would add
6) Unwillingness to keep what is known and proven. To some degree you can't totally reinvent the wheel. Too often I saw innovation for the sake of innovation. That just does not do well. For instance, every MMO with much char customization was liked for that feature. And yet, new MMOs often fall behind that accomplishment for reasons I don't fathom. Just one example for many. There are plenty of things in MMOs gamers liked, but for some reason the next approach drops or ignores it.
You're half right.
Beta testers actually have next to no say in how a game is designed. They come in pretty much after all is said-and-done. They're there to collect hard data (ie: server load) and find bugs that the test department didn't find.
Where you ARE right, is that a large part of the blame for no next-gen MMO, DOES fall on the community.
Plain and simple, we buy crap over and over and over again. We bitch and moan about how MMO's are not advancing but we keep buying the crap. And while the publishers certainly hate the bitching and moaning, (they certainly send their PR police out to places such as this website) they don't actually feel compelled to make the product better cause we keep buying it.
Sounds exactly like the game Dark And Light. That game failed miserably.
And most games like it aren't that great. So do people really NOT want a nextgen mmo?
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
There'll be no revolutionary ideas as long as we, with our wallets, convince companies that their games sell. Fine, bitch all you like about the MMO market being stagnant, but as long as you pay for a game that follows the WoW-esque structure we're tires of you're telling companies that it's profitable to try and beat WoW at its own game instead of breaking new ground.
Look at Mirror's Edge. Nobody had ever made a first-person game based around movement before; it was a pretty revolutionary idea. If it had sold well EA might have continued to break new ground there; one day conventional FPSs may have all had wall-running and vaulting systems. It sold poorly because we, consciously or not, decided that it wasn't an idea worth supporting; it wasn't too profitable for EA and consequently any sequel plans were scrapped. I expect EA will be more careful about taking risks in future because of this.
I bought APB despite its flaws, purely to send a message: doing something new, stirring the stagnant pool in which the average MMO gamer enjoys dwelling, will sell. It's the most I can do as a consumer; I can endorse an idea by buying into it. If all of us who want some change in the industry do so, it might encourage companies to take risks with their MMOs.
At the end if the day MMOs are by far the most expensive type of game to develop; investors want a "reliable" investment, not some crazy hit-or-miss new idea. Revolutionary ideas will only make it through pre-production if we convince investors and corporations that they sell.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
I'm sorry but I don't think the OP or many of the people in this thread really understand what "Next Gen" means.
Next Gen, as far as an MMO is concerned, is a buzz-word for an MMO that has been created and builds upon the technologies (or MMOs) before it.
WAR was "next-gen" compared to WoW because it built upon a lot of the features. Champions was "next gen" based on WAR because it was built upon stuff that WAR (and other games of course) did with things like the Public Quest system.
The reality of it is that because of the nature of the genre, games are constantly evolving. 'Next Gen' usually refers to things like consoles, where the basis of the unit doesn't change. All an MMO has to do to update their game is patch, or release an expansion, etc. 'Next Gen' isn't really a good word to use for this genre because it's a sliding scale, and MMOs aren't released in competition with eachother, but the market as a whole.
In the end, 'Next Gen' is a phrase used by PR people to try and drum up buzz, or by people who don't really know what it means to try and apply to a genre they may not fully understand.
The reason we don't have a "next gen" is because there is no "gen" anymore. After the leaps from MUDS to UO to EQ to WoW, the genre has become too fluid to think of it in terms of cut-off blocks.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Agree and disagree.
150% agree with "There'll be no revolutionary ideas as long as we, with our wallets, convince companies that their games sell"
I do however heartily disagree with buying a game with known flaws.
Next-Gen does not mean 'non-WoW' from a design standpoint. The QUALITY of MMO's must evolve (even moreso than gameplay features IMO) in order for it to be Next-Gen.
Innovation costs money (as you put forth very well). But it's all for naught if the game has tons of immersion breaking flaws. As a consumer, if you manage to get a message through to the bean-counters that yes you'll buy their game, as long as it has X and Y 'new amazing features and innovations' but neglect to take a stand against typical MMO build quality (ie:absolute garbage)... than that's all you'll get. Half baked neato features in a game that breaks.
Investors will ALWAYS try to do the absolute bare minimum.
You're right in terms of your definition of next-gen; my reply was a bit far off-topic. I was referring to the general lack of new ideas in the industry, with each game being a gradual evolution of the last until we've got a completely different beast. No MMO in recent memory has broken new ground in terms of the game's objectives or incentives. You play, without fail, for loot, XP, gold or all three. No exceptions. Not because you care about a character, not because you care about the story, only for an arbitrary reward at the end.
The structure of most MMOs is also exactly the same. Quest your way up the low levels, grinding whenever content gets thin. Hit dungeons periodically with groups throughout the lower levels. Avoid PvP until the higher levels. Max out character with raids and dungeons, then grind for PvP gear. The only exception I can think of is WAR in that open-world PvP is important right from the get-go.
EVE is the perfect example of a "revolution". XP bars mean nothing; loot means almost nothing. It's all about power, all about survival. You rely on other players because you'll lose everything if you don't, not to make grinding for rare gear easier. There's no clearly-defined objective, no shiny armour or PvP raid at the end of the road. You're simply shoved into the world with next to nothing and shown a massive, cruel, insurmountable chain of people much more powerful than you could ever hope to be. And, as humans instinctively do, you hold on and climb the chain. In terms of design, EVE can't be compared to other MMOs. It's the ultimate PvPer's dream; all risk and all reward, it's the ultimate diplomatic challenge with the corporations' fragile relations. It proves that the devs don't have to give a shit about accessibility beyond a good tutorial, as long as there's enough potential for complexity you'll keep attracting players.
Think about it: EVE offers you a chance to actually make something of yourself in the game world, and we lap it up. It offers limitless power; there is no "level cap". There's always a bigger fish in the sea, and as long as it's there you can't resist screwing it over. It seems other companies lack CCP's guts.
"Smacking kids doesn't hurt them, kinetic energy does!"- Doctor Tobia
To the OP: Suits.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Because one hasn't been released yet???